OT: Is it EVER going to end?

34,131 Views | 431 Replies | Last: 10 yr ago by ShareBear
SonOfCalVa
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MiZery;842610696 said:

Why do you just make sarcastic statements? No, the president said this. Tell me what is incorrect about the statement below.

“What we know is that — as human beings are placed under strain, then bad things happen,” the president told co-host Norah O’Donnell, in a conversation taped Wednesday. “And, you know, if you look at world history, whenever people are desperate, when people start lacking food, when people — are not able to make a living or take care of their families — that’s when ideologies arise that are dangerous.”


What he didn't and couldn't say is that major war crimes were committed fostering and executing the Iraq War, while the neo-cons abandoned the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan.

The Iraq War was terrorism on a huge scale, following the New American Century manifesto (signed by defacto prez Cheney as well as Rummy and other "leaders" of the Bush regime, also signed by 'moderate' jeb Bush). The PUS that exploded from the neo-con brains has infected the entire region and is spreading.
Hate ISIS? Look to those who created it, the insane creators of the New American Century.
And then, there's Sandy Hook, et.al., "non-terrorists", by a convenient warping of definitions.
wifeisafurd
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dajo9;842610694 said:

I'm not sure why it is not a gun control issue also just because the shooters were motivated by jihadi terrorism. We have a terrorism problem. We have a gun problem. In this instance they overlap. Will happen again.


Your right, and its going to happen again, which is scary. But with ISIS now claiming credit for the killings (assuming latest news reports are accurate), I am not sure how gun control advocates saying its simply guns are going to gain much traction, especially after rushing to judgement that this incident was all about gun loving americans. They likely lose credibility with most Americans (especially with the half that own guns), and the newspapers covers only reduce that credibility. Candidly, I see this incident and its aftermath turning public perception the opposite way.
MiZery
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1979bear;842610682 said:

You scour the earth to find a non Muslim terrorist act. Look at your earlier list. In 2015, Muslims don't have a corner on terrorism, but some of their group are trying. And I mentioned the crusades because you look for any excuse you can find to deflect attention from the Muslim world when it comes to terrorism. That is Mizeryble.


Dude. I dint need to scour the earth, I didn't even list everything.

FACT: Did you know that Jerad & Amanda Miller were a married couple (with anti-government ideology) who went on the 2014 Las Vegas shooting spree killing 5 people (including 2 cops) & covered one of the police officer's bodies with a yellow "Don't Tread On Me" flag & tossed a Nazi Swastika on his body...San Bernardino was not the first time a married couple committed mass murder...
MiZery
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wifeisafurd;842610722 said:

Your right, and its going to happen again, which is scary. But with ISIS now claiming credit for the killings (assuming latest news reports are accurate), I am not sure how gun control advocates saying its simply guns are going to gain much traction, especially after rushing to judgement that this incident was all about gun loving americans. They likely lose credibility with most Americans (especially with the half that own guns), and the newspapers covers only reduce that credibility. Candidly, I see this incident and its aftermath turning public perception the opposite way.


They didn't claim credit
berk18
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mvargus;842610575 said:

The whole Islamic religion formed as a way to organize and control several different tribes in the Arab Peninsula. In many ways the Koran is a Constitution masquerading as a religious document. That's why Islam doesn't integrate well with democracies. Unlike Christianity where the head of the religion is NOT the head of government, an Islamic Imam is seen as the head of the local government.

There actually is no way that Islam and Liberalism can co-exist long term. Islam demands that all worshippers submit to the will of the religion and its leaders. This conflict won't be solved in the short term, and I expect the long term solution will require that either everyone convert, or that the religion is driven out of any position of power.

The fact that there are people who condemn Christianity but ignore the reality of Islam would cause me to shake my head if I didn't understand that the majority of the people doing this are Western Secularists who worship government, hate Christianity because it tells them that what they do is a sin, and have no clue that the rules of Islam are actually stricter and would be enforced on them should Islam have control of the region they live in. Ignorance may be bliss, but its dangerous in the extreme in this case.


It's simply not the case that followers of a religion have to believe in scriptural inerrancy. Fundamentalism is essentially a late 19th century phenomenon in both Christianity and Islam (though there have always been, and will always be, minor branches dangerously exploiting it in both religions). The only way you could say that Islam can never co-exist with liberalism is if you think that every Muslim must, necessarily, do exactly what's in the Koran, otherwise they aren't a real Muslim. This is imposing a constraint on Muslims and defining Islam from the outside, not describing the actual practices of the majority of its followers in any given place or time.

When people bring up Christianity or the Crusades (or whatever scriptural justifications existed for slavery, etc.), this is really the point that they're making. There are things in the Bible that don't work in a modern context. There are things in the Torah that don't work in a modern context. There are things in the Koran that don't work in a modern context. All of these have been, at some point, used to commit atrocities. It is true that, for various historical reasons (i.e. because most western countries have already done their pillaging and built up their wealth), Christians aren't generally the ones doing these things now. Furthermore, in America in 2015, we all know a bunch of Christians and Jews, and have heard the rationale for why Leviticus doesn't count any more, so we're fine with the fact that they don't have to stone people just because it's in the Bible. But apparently all real Muslims will always be doing exactly what Muslim fundamentalists are doing right now (or should be doing what Muslim fundamentalists were doing 1,000 years ago if they want to be "genuine"), and the majority of the Muslims living in liberal democracies right now can't possibly be fitting in. This is the kind of assumption that lets people dangerously blur the lines between Muslims and Muslim extremists.
NVBear78
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MiZery;842610734 said:

They didn't claim credit



https://ca.news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-says-california-killers-14-were-followers-111704711.html.

Everyone but the NYT, Kerry, Lynch, Obama and Misery know this was a terrorist attack. By the way they also left three IED's at the site linked together to be exploded remotely when the police arrived. And the couples home was a bombmaking site.

But the sickest thing of all is they dropped off their six month old baby on the way to mass murder. I know of only one ideology that does things like that.
berk18
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hanky1;842610716 said:

I mostly agree with you here but some of the most prominent radical Islamic terrorist were rather wealthy.


I wonder how wealthy the average suicide bomber is? I doubt that these groups would be around long if the prominent, wealthy extremists had to do their own dirty work.
MiZery
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Meanwhile another peace loving republican

http://buzz.blog.ajc.com/2015/12/05/liberty-university-president-jerry-falwell-jr-urges-students-to-arm-themselves/
mikecohen
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MiZery;842608106 said:

Whats political about this?


+1 - VERY perceptive comment
mikecohen
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OdontoBear66;842608603 said:

There needs to be moves to the center by both sides of this contentious situation. The stonewallers on either side are in their passion are keeping anything from happening. Feet in concrete means nothing gets done. It is time for change, so moderate the change--leave a little something on the table for both sides.


False equivalency. There are no gun control stonewallers. The only stonewallers are the right wingers who control the Republican Party which prevents ANY even proposed legislation from even being debated in Congress.
mikecohen
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rkt88edmo;842608639 said:

Attrition rate due to the three factors you listed will have a negligible impact on the number of firearms out there. Most firearms that aren't neglected will continue to be useful for 150+ years unless they are shot A LOT. Most guns aren't shot very much and rust is their biggest enemy for functionality.



Semi-automatic AR15 and AK "type" rifles are banned by name (Roberti Roos 1989) and by feature (SB23 1999) but in practice they are currently readily available in certain configurations that can fairly readily be converted to an illegal fully functional configuration.

Most storage devices sold aren't going to provide a lot of resistance to thieves, but I agree that something is better than nothing.

Banning simple mechanical objects like guns is not going to be a simple task. People think they can just make the "bad ones" illegal, but there is really very little separating the common hunting arms from the "evil assault weapons".

End the war on freedom. End the war on drugs, firearms, privacy, personal computing, etc.


Don't suppose you have any suggestions for improving the situation
berk18
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mvargus;842610573 said:


Jewish settlers are not terrorists. They are not willfully killing others in an attempt to generate terror. Heck, if you read the news its been the muslims engaging in the knife attacks in Israel.



All of them aren't, which is definitely an important distinction to make. "Price tag" attacks and "revenge killings," like the kidnapping and murder of 16-year old Mohammed Abu Khdeir, on the other hand...

Price tag attacks are interesting because the very name that the perpetrators use emphasizes the link between financial loss and terrorism.

I would also add that all terrorists see their actions as retaliatory. Here's Osama Bin Laden on his inspiration for 9/11:

Quote:

"While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women."
SonOfCalVa
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ah hell ... way back then ... when Cain killed Abel, or vice-versa, whatever ... but that was before "religion", or was it, maybe pre-Oedipus syndrome, before there were syndromes ... and, always bugs me, who was the mother of Eve's grandkids ... a question that defies answer from Abraham followers ... did Abe ascend upwards? if not, why was he left behind?

p.s. ... God is DOG spelled backwards.
MiZery
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NVBear78;842610768 said:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-says-california-killers-14-were-followers-111704711.html.

Everyone but the NYT, Kerry, Lynch, Obama and Misery know this was a terrorist attack. By the way they also left three IED's at the site linked together to be exploded remotely when the police arrived. And the couples home was a bombmaking site.

But the sickest thing of all is they dropped off their six month old baby on the way to mass murder. I know of only one ideology that does things like that.


You can't read. They didn't take credit, they just said these guys were followers. They had nothing to do with planning it.

It's a terrorist attack. Where in the Quran does it say that this is okay?

I know of one ideology that thinks killing abortion doctors and African Americans is okay. One that thinks that shooting up a school in Norway is ok.

That's ok. Ignore my points again.
wifeisafurd
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MiZery;842610734 said:

They didn't claim credit


Not so fast (and damn Yahoo). Other reports (Reuters) say they claim the killers were "followers" and now: "an English-language version of the broadcast was later released calling the attackers "soldiers" of Islamic State carrying out their mission, rather than "followers" as in the original Arabic version. It was unclear if the English version was claiming them as members, or why there was an inconsistency."

"It is entirely possible that these two attackers were radicalized to commit this act of terror," U.S. President Barack Obama said in a radio address on Saturday. "If so, it would underscore a threat we've been focused on for years, the danger of people succumbing to violent extremist ideologies."

If you can't see how this has evolved from Americans and their guns to terrorism in the federal government's eyes, than I think you have blinders on.
NVBear78
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MiZery;842610802 said:

You can't read. They didn't take credit, they just said these guys were followers. They had nothing to do with planning it.

It's a terrorist attack. Where in the Quran does it say that this is okay?

I know of one ideology that thinks killing abortion doctors and African Americans is okay. One that thinks that shooting up a school in Norway is ok.

That's ok. Ignore my points again.


I agree those are awful, awful things. What ideology is it that condones those things? I know that Christianity does not condone or support such acts.
wifeisafurd
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MiZery;842610774 said:

Meanwhile another peace loving republican

http://buzz.blog.ajc.com/2015/12/05/liberty-university-president-jerry-falwell-jr-urges-students-to-arm-themselves/


Well expect a lot more push back (including from Dems) to come after the initial response that this was because Americans have too many weapons. Gun control advocates are their own worse enemy.
berk18
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NVBear78;842610812 said:

I agree those are awful, awful things. What ideology is it that condones those things? I know that Christianity does not condone or support such acts.


That really depends on the Christian, I suppose. Why isn't Robert Lewis Dear a real Christian?
GB54
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MiZery;842610696 said:

Why do you just make sarcastic statements? No, the president said this. Tell me what is incorrect about the statement below.

"What we know is that as human beings are placed under strain, then bad things happen," the president told co-host Norah O'Donnell, in a conversation taped Wednesday. "And, you know, if you look at world history, whenever people are desperate, when people start lacking food, when people are not able to make a living or take care of their families that's when ideologies arise that are dangerous."


I hope Obama is talking about his own country here because that's what he is describing.
mikecohen
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calbear93;842608652 said:

I hate that our president makes these types of tone-deaf statements in light of tragedies in Paris and other parts of Europe and Africa. While I have never and will never own a gun and I am baffled by pull the NRA has in getting corrupt politicians to agree to ridiculous positions like not prohibiting guns to those on no-fly-list, I am also confused by why he is using this as an opportunity to lecture us on gun control issue. I look at what even a questionable leader like Hollande can do in the face of tragedy and Hollande's ability to take action, start healing, and unify the nations, and I compare that to what Obama does in situations like this as if his job is to give us a lecture on how smart and moral he is, and it really breaks my heart. While gun control is necessary, by making this about guns and not about ideology, fanaticism, income inequality, and all other underlying matters, he is losing another opportunity to lead. I don't care whether someone causes mass destruction with a pressure cooker or with guns, it is the motives and not the weapons we need to deal with. But I know that is not politically correct.


Although the causes of the evil conduct are very (and centrally) meaningful, the absolute ease in obtaining these weapons of mass destruction makes, as you say, "Gun control . . . necessary". Does it make any difference whether one is addressed before the other?
mikecohen
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tequila4kapp;842608662 said:

At first this response aggravated me because it read as flippant / un-serious. But you know what, I'm glad you said this. You may be right. But it is never going to happen. So what's next?


Amend the 2nd Amendment. Even just making it clear to the idiotic Supreme Court that the first phrase of the 2nd Amendment actually means something; or clarifying that the right to bear arms does not include those capable of creating mass destruction. Does anyone believe that all Americans have the right to own nuclear weapons?, chemical weapons?, biological weapons?, guns that can kill 100 people in seconds?
mikecohen
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calbear93;842608669 said:

You need to be better than the NRA in "contributing" to corrupt senators and representatives. Put your money where your mouth is. I would also say that the states need to adopt tougher laws (ban on assault rifles deemed constitutional), but, as long as guns can be carried over state lines, it won't be effective. However, let's not confuse this as a gun control issue. Extreme Islamist would have found other ways (like in Boston) to create mass destruction even if guns were hard to come by.


The harder to come by, the greater the prohibition against mass destruction weapons, etc., the less and less and less likelihood of success for mass murderers, whatever their perceived justification.
SonOfCalVa
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NVBear78;842610812 said:

I agree those are awful, awful things. What ideology is it that condones those things? I know that Christianity does not condone or support such acts.


Go work for Planned Parenthood and pay no attention to what the fundy-fruitcakes say.
mikecohen
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SonOfCalVa;842608685 said:

And, not to forget the part of oaths that refer to "enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.
NRA-protected DOMESTIC enemies have nothing to do with foreign enemies - we own them; they're ours.
That the majority of responsible gun owners are disgusted, to say the least, doesn't phase the multi-millionaire "executives" in the NRA. They're bought and paid for by the munitions manufacturers.

"Free" enterprise ... gotta luv it. :p


As long as I'm at it: Is not mass drug addiction (to both legal and illegal drugs) also the product of free enterprise?, caused by the irresistibility of massive profits on the part of both the legal industry and the illegal cartels?
mikecohen
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grandmastapoop;842608715 said:

This response will seem a bit flippant/unserious, too: But what if we bypass the 2nd Amendment by putting strict restrictions on the sale of ammunition to private citizens? And by that I mean, we ban the sale of bullets and only allow the sale of rubber/non-lethal ammunition. I don't even know if that would work in most/all/any guns. I also don't doubt that NRA/gun lobby lawyers would argue that it is in violation of the 2nd Amendment by rendering the 2nd Amendment useless and I don't doubt they'd find sympathetic ears on the Supreme Court. But it is time to do something, and it's time to do something that will work. For example, background checks are useless when bad guys don't have anything in their history to raise an alarm.


If effectiveness is always thought of in terms of perfection, no improvement will ever be made. C. Chan.
juarezbear
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berk18;842610817 said:

That really depends on the Christian, I suppose. Why isn't Robert Lewis Dear a real Christian?


EVERY religious group, even Buddhism, has extremists capable of terror. Christians in the Central African Republic have been attempting ethnic cleansing of Muslims over the past few years. Dogma is the underlying enemy.
GB54
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mikecohen;842610844 said:

Amend the 2nd Amendment. Even just making it clear to the idiotic Supreme Court that the first phrase of the 2nd Amendment actually means something; or clarifying that the right to bear arms does not include those capable of creating mass destruction. Does anyone believe that all Americans have the right to own nuclear weapons?, chemical weapons?, biological weapons?, guns that can kill 100 people in seconds?


Even Scalia rejects your assumptions that the second amendment has no constraints

Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia says the Constitution's right to bear arms isn't absolute and could be changed in the future.

Scalia, a card-carrying conservative and stalwart of the Court's right-leaning majority, told "Fox News Sunday" that the Second Amendment's language allowing citizens the right to own weapons doesn't mean they can own any weapon they want.

"There are some limitations that can be imposed," Scalia said. "What they are will depend on what the society understood were reasonable limitations at the (future) time."

In a controversial 2008 decision, the Supreme Court declared a handgun ban enacted by the District of Columbia unconstitutional, but the majority noted that, nonetheless, gun ownership was not an unlimited right, said Scalia, who wrote the opinion in that case.

"It will have to be decided in future cases what limitations upon the right to bear arms are permissible," he added. "Some undoubtedly are."

Scalia was asked whether constitutional protection would extend to weapons used by James Holmes in the Colorado movie theater massacre that allow one to fire dozens of rounds per minute.

"We'll see," he answered. "I mean, obviously the (Second) amendment does not apply to arms that cannot be hand-carried. It's to keep and bear so it doesn't apply to cannons.

"But I suppose there are handheld rocket launchers that can bring down airplanes that will have to be decided."

Scalia pointed out Sunday that that the Second Amendment "obviously" doesn't apply to weapons that can't be hand-carried, and modern-day weapons like "hand-held rocket launchers that can bring down airplanes" weren't factored in at the time of the writing of the Constitution.

"My starting point and probably my ending point will be what limitations are within the understood limitations that the society had at the time," he said. "They had some limitations on the nature of arms that could be borne. So we'll see what those limitations are as applied to modern weapons."
mikecohen
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norcal_bear;842608751 said:

So Republicans offer comfort to relatives of victims, democrats hijack their tragedy to push their political agenda while the bodies are still warm?


Is seeking to do something to affect the gun scourge pushing a political agenda? Is seeking such aim when the obviousness of the need is highlighted by the murder of 24 children hijacking? Is making false equivalencies like norcal_bear's above comment not the actual equivalent of "offer(ing) comfort to relatives of victims", with the obvious effect of seeking to prevent any solution other than that of the manufacturers and right wingers, of universal, unlimited arms purchase to enrich the manufacturers?
NVBear78
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berk18;842610817 said:

That really depends on the Christian, I suppose. Why isn't Robert Lewis Dear a real Christian?


The pictures I saw of that showed what appeared to be a typical lone wolf, crazy person shooter. Personally I am appalled by his actions, would condemn anyone for doing what he did and know of nobody who supports this. Do you two really and truly believe that Christians condone the unspeakable actions you just listed? I really hope you don't think that, wow, just wow.
mikecohen
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Bobodeluxe;842608758 said:

Assuming this event was a terrorist act, why?

Is The Dishrag reaching out to Teabaggers by killing gubmnt workers in a facility which lends services to Takers?

Strange times, indeed.


Do you have a proposal to deal with developmental disability? Based on the tone of your comment, one imagines you would favor euthanasia, or perhaps just benign neglect, resulting the slow (or maybe fast) death of such people on the street (unless their families have sufficient wealth to pay for the services). And, what if those services (to people who can't afford them) helps a meaningful percentage of such people achieve productive lives? And of course there should be no way of measuring either disability or success, since that might be a government function. What's strange to me is the prevalence of such monstrous thinking.
wifeisafurd
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Again, you may be jumping the gun. The English version called them ISIS soldiers on a mission. Do you know where they got the bombs? Do you know why the FBI and ATF are leading the investigation and not the locals? Do you understand the President has done a 180 on what he was saying earlier? I might have mischaracterized things by using Yahoo wording that said ISIS took credit, and I am glad to admit that, but I think you may want to wait about your complete denial of ISIS involvement. At least you finally seem to view this as a terrorist attack.
mikecohen
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Rushinbear;842608949 said:

What? You would call the police and wait for them to come to your aid?


Lots of different circumstances, lots of alternatives, lots of different things to marshal in defense -- The idea that arming oneself (or everyone) is the only possible solution is so nutty as to qualify as a goal of terrorism.
berk18
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NVBear78;842610874 said:

The pictures I saw of that showed what appeared to be a typical lone wolf, crazy person shooter. Personally I am appalled by his actions, would condemn anyone for doing what he did and know of nobody who supports this. Do you two really and truly believe that Christians condone the unspeakable actions you just listed? I really hope you don't think that, wow, just wow.


This illustrates my point so, so well. SOME Christians condone the unspeakable actions that have been listed, but you (perfectly reasonably) balk when people generalize by calling it "Christian terrorism" and saying that the religion as a whole is toxic or incompatible with modern society (I'm sure we both find Bill Maher insufferable). Yet, when Muslims have the exact same concerns about their own religion, you can't give them the same concessions that you want for yourself.

My stance is, and always has been, that religion is whatever its practitioners say it is, and that there's no necessary connection between the way that any two members of the "same" religion practice. This lets me separate you from Robert Lewis Dear, and the overwhelming majority of Muslims who aren't terrorists from ISIS. I'm unclear about how you can say that plenty of Muslims are good people in one breath, and then agree with a post stating that Islam is completely incompatible with liberal democracy, or mockingly call Islam a "religion of peace" (GWB's phrase, by the way) in the next. You're finding some wiggle room somewhere in there, but I'm not sure where.
MiZery
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NVBear78;842610874 said:

The pictures I saw of that showed what appeared to be a typical lone wolf, crazy person shooter. Personally I am appalled by his actions, would condemn anyone for doing what he did and know of nobody who supports this. Do you two really and truly believe that Christians condone the unspeakable actions you just listed? I really hope you don't think that, wow, just wow.


Actually
www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/28/pro-lifers-take-to-twitter-to-praise-planned-parenthood-shooter/
beelzebear
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Considering Scalia is a constitutional originalist and extreme conservative, this is significant stuff.

GB54;842610866 said:

Even Scalia rejects your assumptions that the second amendment has no constraints

Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia says the Constitution's right to bear arms isn't absolute and could be changed in the future.

Scalia, a card-carrying conservative and stalwart of the Court's right-leaning majority, told "Fox News Sunday" that the Second Amendment's language allowing citizens the right to own weapons doesn't mean they can own any weapon they want.

"There are some limitations that can be imposed," Scalia said. "What they are will depend on what the society understood were reasonable limitations at the (future) time."

In a controversial 2008 decision, the Supreme Court declared a handgun ban enacted by the District of Columbia unconstitutional, but the majority noted that, nonetheless, gun ownership was not an unlimited right, said Scalia, who wrote the opinion in that case.

"It will have to be decided in future cases what limitations upon the right to bear arms are permissible," he added. "Some undoubtedly are."

Scalia was asked whether constitutional protection would extend to weapons used by James Holmes in the Colorado movie theater massacre that allow one to fire dozens of rounds per minute.

"We'll see," he answered. "I mean, obviously the (Second) amendment does not apply to arms that cannot be hand-carried. It's to keep and bear so it doesn't apply to cannons.

"But I suppose there are handheld rocket launchers that can bring down airplanes that will have to be decided."

Scalia pointed out Sunday that that the Second Amendment "obviously" doesn't apply to weapons that can't be hand-carried, and modern-day weapons like "hand-held rocket launchers that can bring down airplanes" weren't factored in at the time of the writing of the Constitution.

"My starting point and probably my ending point will be what limitations are within the understood limitations that the society had at the time," he said. "They had some limitations on the nature of arms that could be borne. So we'll see what those limitations are as applied to modern weapons."
 
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