MoragaBear said:

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okaydo said:

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Who had it worse, 2013 Dykes or....?

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2013:

-Moose
-Scarlett
-McClure
-Gibson
-Sebastian
-Logan
-Sina
-Adcock
-Cochran
-Forbes (last 3 games)
-McCain (dismissed after 3 games)

2017:

-DRob
-Hudson
-Watson
-Zeandae
-Saffle
-Downs
-Rambo
-Singleton/Bankhead/Stovall? (not sure if they'll be back and what their injuries are).

Both years are brutal. The thing about '13 was there was even less depth and way more freshmen and walk-ons forced to start and very few juniors and senior starting.

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Seemed like 2014 and 2016 were also unusually bad, especially with regards to DBs.

Moraga
I would like to know if there is any serious discussion about returning to natural turf?

PTBear said:

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Sebastabear said:

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I spoke a bit with the new S&C coach on the way back from North Carolina. We talked about injuries and he said, in essence, his regime should be judged not on whether players got injured, as injuries are part of football, but rather on how quickly players recovered from their injuries. I liked him quite a bit and appreciate his enthusiasm, but I can't help but wonder if he'd change that criteria at this point.

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This is only partly true.
A bad staff will get players back slowly, and these players may be more likely to get reinjured.

As a whole, in sports medicine you are judged by your ability to prevent injuries and return from injuries.
Return to play criteria will vary from surgeon to surgeon, and even from the rehab therapist/ATC who is assessing return to play.

And beware surgeons who promote fast return to play as a correlation to their skill. For example I've worked with surgeons who allow their ACL patients to start running at 2 months post surgery, and I've worked with even better surgeons (including the ones at UCSF who I think are top of the class) who won't let their ACL patients run until 3.5-4 months. Unfortunately in this day and age, you can look and find research that supports your opinion, hence the varying return to running or return to play criteria. In the end, the smart therapist will use a combination of evidence based practice, understanding of pathophysiology and biomechanics, and knowledge of movement science to determine the ideal recovery period, instead of just some recipe or default set time set by one person.

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Stanfurd got their QB Chryst back from an ACL injury in their Bowl game in time for Spring practice if I recall correctly. And in any event he was ready for the start of this season even though they played early in Australia.

Fastest ACL recovery I have ever seen...

PTBear- Not bored with your comments at all. Very much appreciate hearing the perspective of someone knowledgeable in the field. Thanks for posting.

drizzlybears brother said:

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71Bear said:

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BearGoggles said:

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bross said:

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I know injuries are a part of the game, but this year has been unbelievable.

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It seems like we say this pretty much every year.

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Cal fans are notorious for believing that only the Bears are impacted by injuries.

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All fans.

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Touche! That is why fans who whine about their team experiencing injuries are shortsighted. They fail to understand that football is a brutal sport and injuries are the price to pay for playing the game.

B.A. Bearacus said:

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Guys, is your gut telling you that it's gotta be the synthetic turf? As in, season-ending injuries happen to every team, but maybe there's something about our turf that makes such injuries more likely?

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Yes. Been complaining about this for years. We need real grass. And it's Berkeley for god's sake. Why the hell don't we have a natural playing surface? Ridiculous.

NVBear78 said:

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Fastest ACL recovery I have ever seen...

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Apparently the glove even works on ACLs!

PTBear said:

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72CalBear said:

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Season ending injuries may not just be the seriousness of the injury itself, but the shadow of doubt regarding healing and rehab in light of "next season" and/or the NFL. I don't mean to sound like players are getting the best surgery and benefits of better, longer rehab to enable them to best heal for the NFL, but it's something I have thought about. Surgeries and rehab today are quite different than just a few years ago.

Another thing, talking to a trainer at my gym - the size that players now achieve, getting "bigger" and the incredible muscular development and strength may not always translate into stronger connecting tendons and ligaments. How do these get any "stronger?" I am not an expert, but I am sure that our players are doing a wide range of strength and conditioning, but the number of ACL injuries makes me wonder about tendons and ligaments that may simply fail due to the incredible impact that players have on one another as they grow more stout.

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Sorry to bore everyone with my comments, hope people aren't hitting the ignore button as this is obviously my passion as i'm an exercise geek

Your trainer brings up some interesting points. While players aren't getting THAT much bigger/stronger in the last couple of decades (this is starting to plateau but was very true the past couple of decades before), training philosophies haven't been helpful with developing "stronger tendons/ligaments or connective tissue"

For instance, when you do an isolated exercise like a seated bicep curl on a machine, you can target your biceps more with everything stabilized. However, if you do this same bicep curl with a dumbbell in a standing position, you have a lot of other challenges that your body must adjust to (shoulder and trunk stability, balance, etc). The latter exercise will be better at training the full "kinetic chain" and this is what's needed more often when trying to improve a person's coordination and dynamic structural integrity.

The same difference can be see when comparing the bench press to doing dumbbell presses. The bench press is more stable, and thus you should be able to push with a heavier total weight, leading to increased muscle mass. With dumbbells, you must stabilize each arm individually, which will take away from your ability to maximally exert yourself. You can go all the way to the other extreme by doing this dumbbell press when laying on a large stability ball (i'm NOT recommending this btw), so now your arms and your body are less stable

In short, people need full body movements and training to help reduce their risk of injury at their isolated vulnerable joints, and training for just strength or size isn't necessarily the answer.

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Do you like PX90?

Get the turf out!!

71Bear said:

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drizzlybears brother said:

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71Bear said:

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BearGoggles said:

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bross said:

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I know injuries are a part of the game, but this year has been unbelievable.

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It seems like we say this pretty much every year.

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Cal fans are notorious for believing that only the Bears are impacted by injuries.

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All fans.

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Touche! That is why fans who whine about their team experiencing injuries are shortsighted. They fail to understand that football is a brutal sport and injuries are the price to pay for playing the game.

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Same for opinions on officiating.

bearsandgiants said:

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B.A. Bearacus said:

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Guys, is your gut telling you that it's gotta be the synthetic turf? As in, season-ending injuries happen to every team, but maybe there's something about our turf that makes such injuries more likely?

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Yes. Been complaining about this for years. We need real grass. And it's Berkeley for god's sake. Why the hell don't we have a natural playing surface? Ridiculous.

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Because that is also their practice facility and natural grass can't hold up to both.

bross said:

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I know injuries are a part of the game, but this year has been unbelievable.

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we say that many years.

and we're not alone.

bummer for Downs, hope he can rest up and rock the draft workouts. I had just pointed him out to a bunch of NFL-centric friends Sunday, saying he's probably the next Cal guy they'll see prominently on Sundays.

drizzlybears brother said:

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71Bear said:

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drizzlybears brother said:

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71Bear said:

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BearGoggles said:

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bross said:

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I know injuries are a part of the game, but this year has been unbelievable.

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It seems like we say this pretty much every year.

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Cal fans are notorious for believing that only the Bears are impacted by injuries.

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All fans.

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Touche! That is why fans who whine about their team experiencing injuries are shortsighted. They fail to understand that football is a brutal sport and injuries are the price to pay for playing the game.

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Same for opinions on officiating.

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Yes, but the outstanding teams usually do get special treatment in terms of officiating. With the money on the line for conferences, it's not surprising. I look forward to this, really, once we become a top-shelf team again.

chazzed said:

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drizzlybears brother said:

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71Bear said:

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drizzlybears brother said:

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71Bear said:

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BearGoggles said:

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bross said:

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I know injuries are a part of the game, but this year has been unbelievable.

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It seems like we say this pretty much every year.

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Cal fans are notorious for believing that only the Bears are impacted by injuries.

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All fans.

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Touche! That is why fans who whine about their team experiencing injuries are shortsighted. They fail to understand that football is a brutal sport and injuries are the price to pay for playing the game.

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Same for opinions on officiating.

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Yes, but the outstanding teams usually do get special treatment in terms of officiating. With the money on the line for conferences, it's not surprising. I look forward to this, really, once we become a top-shelf team again.

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Prime examples of this were on display at the USC/Utah game this past weekend in the 4th quarter. Never seen a delay of game called a second after the referee stopped straddling the ball allowing SC a late defensive substitution. This was shortly followed by a complete miss of a 3rd down spot which replay clearly showed. Horrible horrible calls.

chazzed said:

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drizzlybears brother said:

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71Bear said:

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drizzlybears brother said:

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71Bear said:

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BearGoggles said:

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bross said:

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I know injuries are a part of the game, but this year has been unbelievable.

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It seems like we say this pretty much every year.

---

Cal fans are notorious for believing that only the Bears are impacted by injuries.

---

All fans.

---

Touche! That is why fans who whine about their team experiencing injuries are shortsighted. They fail to understand that football is a brutal sport and injuries are the price to pay for playing the game.

---

Same for opinions on officiating.

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Yes, but the outstanding teams usually do get special treatment in terms of officiating. With the money on the line for conferences, it's not surprising. I look forward to this, really, once we become a top-shelf team again.

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Jordan rules......

It is the same in every sport at every level. My suggestion: Win and take advantage....

71Bear said:

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bross said:

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I know injuries are a part of the game, but this year has been unbelievable.

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UW lost two defensive starters for the season following injuries sustained last Saturday.

Yep, injuries are part of the game.

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Downs and who else?

I think I updated the OP with all the new info you guys provided but please chime in if I didn't get it all.

NVBear78 said:

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PTBear said:

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Sebastabear said:

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I spoke a bit with the new S&C coach on the way back from North Carolina. We talked about injuries and he said, in essence, his regime should be judged not on whether players got injured, as injuries are part of football, but rather on how quickly players recovered from their injuries. I liked him quite a bit and appreciate his enthusiasm, but I can't help but wonder if he'd change that criteria at this point.

---

This is only partly true.
A bad staff will get players back slowly, and these players may be more likely to get reinjured.

As a whole, in sports medicine you are judged by your ability to prevent injuries and return from injuries.
Return to play criteria will vary from surgeon to surgeon, and even from the rehab therapist/ATC who is assessing return to play.

And beware surgeons who promote fast return to play as a correlation to their skill. For example I've worked with surgeons who allow their ACL patients to start running at 2 months post surgery, and I've worked with even better surgeons (including the ones at UCSF who I think are top of the class) who won't let their ACL patients run until 3.5-4 months. Unfortunately in this day and age, you can look and find research that supports your opinion, hence the varying return to running or return to play criteria. In the end, the smart therapist will use a combination of evidence based practice, understanding of pathophysiology and biomechanics, and knowledge of movement science to determine the ideal recovery period, instead of just some recipe or default set time set by one person.

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Stanfurd got their QB Chryst back from an ACL injury in their Bowl game in time for Spring practice if I recall correctly. And in any event he was ready for the start of this season even though they played early in Australia.

Fastest ACL recovery I have ever seen...

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ACL "injuries" vs tears can vary a lot. I have known several athletes who have had ACL "injuries" and not complete tears get back to training fairly quick. My son had a partial tear and after some weeks of rehab, was back to running and training for firefighting. I am not close to an expert, but realize that with any injury, there are degrees that can significantly impact rehab.

CalGrad95 said:

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NVBear78 said:

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Fastest ACL recovery I have ever seen...

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Apparently the glove even works on ACLs!

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Well, they came out with a new version last year, The Knee Glove. It was an adaptation of The Glove, thought up and brought to market by a Stanford senior, who was quadruple majoring in Pre-Orthopedic Surgery, Entrepreneurship, Architectural Design... and Science, Technology, Society and Arrogance.

FuzzyWuzzy said:

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71Bear said:

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bross said:

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I know injuries are a part of the game, but this year has been unbelievable.

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UW lost two defensive starters for the season following injuries sustained last Saturday.

Yep, injuries are part of the game.

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Downs and who else?

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Trey Adams and Jordan Miller

71Bear said:

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FuzzyWuzzy said:

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71Bear said:

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bross said:

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I know injuries are a part of the game, but this year has been unbelievable.

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UW lost two defensive starters for the season following injuries sustained last Saturday.

Yep, injuries are part of the game.

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Downs and who else?

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Trey Adams and Jordan Miller

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Sorry I misread your post. I thought you were saying WE lost 2 defensive starters. In the words of Rosanna Rosanna Danna...

burritos said:

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Do you like PX90?

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Short answer is yes

The best exercises are the ones that people are actually willing to do.
So looking at it from that perspective, P90X is pretty good in that there is variety of movement, it's higher intensity and somewhat more "fun" than other traditional exercises. The marketing and videos help as well

For people who are unfamiliar with exercise, it's not a bad place to start

All teams have injuries, but it just feels like we're now horribly outmanned against 4 of our last 5 opponents.

Let's hope Arizona, Colorado, UCLA, and furd see us as an easy bye-week type W and we can sneak up on one of them like we did WSU, thus getting to 6 wins.

Wasn't Bill Tyndall also lost to injury that year?

B.A. Bearacus said:

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Guys, is your gut telling you that it's gotta be the synthetic turf? As in, season-ending injuries happen to every team, but maybe there's something about our turf that makes such injuries more likely?

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My gut tells me that trying to find a single reason for lots of different injuries is the wrong approach.

mbBear said:

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B.A. Bearacus said:

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Guys, is your gut telling you that it's gotta be the synthetic turf? As in, season-ending injuries happen to every team, but maybe there's something about our turf that makes such injuries more likely?

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My gut tells me that trying to find a single reason for lots of different injuries is the wrong approach.

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I agree. There is no one reason.

Conspiracy seekers - your opportunity to look for non-existent stuff will next present itself on October 26th when the last of the classified material from the Kennedy assassination is scheduled to be made available to the public. There is no need to tear your hair out over the synthetic turf issue when such a rich treasure trove of information awaits your scrutiny.....

71Bear said:

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mbBear said:

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B.A. Bearacus said:

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Guys, is your gut telling you that it's gotta be the synthetic turf? As in, season-ending injuries happen to every team, but maybe there's something about our turf that makes such injuries more likely?

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My gut tells me that trying to find a single reason for lots of different injuries is the wrong approach.

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I agree. There is no one reason.

Conspiracy seekers - your opportunity to look for non-existent stuff will next present itself on October 26th when the last of the classified material from the Kennedy assassination is scheduled to be made available to the public. There is no need to tear your hair out over the synthetic turf issue when such a rich treasure trove of information awaits your scrutiny.....

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71, no one is trying to argue that other teams on other types of fields don't have season ending injuries. No one is arguing that artificial turf is the only reason for our injuries. Now that we have gotten that out of the way, I do feel it's still an open, legitimate question, whether artificial turf, in some combination with shoes and training (the other influencing factors as I see them), might lead to an at least slightly higher incidence of certain types of leg injuries, in particular ACL injuries, which are usually season-ending. Why would the fact that football is a violent sport and that all other teams have injuries preclude one from considering this? If it were the case that natural grass has a disproportionate influence (relative to training and shoes) in producing, let's just say, a 15% higher rate of ACL injuries, would that justify switching to grass, in your opinion? Or would that be negligible difference to you?

Ultimately, it might all be moot because of our lack of a real practice facility.

B.A. Bearacus said:

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71Bear said:

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mbBear said:

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B.A. Bearacus said:

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Guys, is your gut telling you that it's gotta be the synthetic turf? As in, season-ending injuries happen to every team, but maybe there's something about our turf that makes such injuries more likely?

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My gut tells me that trying to find a single reason for lots of different injuries is the wrong approach.

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I agree. There is no one reason.

Conspiracy seekers - your opportunity to look for non-existent stuff will next present itself on October 26th when the last of the classified material from the Kennedy assassination is scheduled to be made available to the public. There is no need to tear your hair out over the synthetic turf issue when such a rich treasure trove of information awaits your scrutiny.....

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71, no one is trying to argue that other teams on other types of fields don't have season ending injuries. No one is arguing that artificial turf is the only reason for our injuries. Now that we have gotten that out of the way, I do feel it's still an open, legitimate question, whether artificial turf, in some combination with shoes and training (the other influencing factors as I see them), might lead to an at least slightly higher incidence of certain types of leg injuries, in particular ACL injuries, which are usually season-ending. Why would the fact that football is a violent sport and that all other teams have injuries preclude one from considering this? If it were the case that natural grass has a disproportionate influence (relative to training and shoes) in producing, let's just say, a 15% higher rate of ACL injuries, would that justify switching to grass, in your opinion? Or would that be negligible difference to you?

Ultimately, it might all be moot because of our lack of a real practice facility.

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This is a debate that has been going on since the Astros first laid down carpet in the Astrodome. To my knowledge, there is no conclusive evidence that has ever been published that unequivocally states that artificial surfaces cause an inordinate number of injuries relative to natural surfaces. In my opinion, we will see a regression to the mean next year.

(Besides, how do we know the nature of the injuries sustained by the Cal players when the school only states "lower body injury". For all we know, the injuries could be serious hamstring pulls, something that would sideline a player for 6-8 weeks, in other words, the rest of the season. Yes, that is very unlikely but remotely possible).

71Bear said:

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This is a debate that has been going on since the Astros first laid down carpet in the Astrodome. To my knowledge, there is no conclusive evidence that has ever been published that unequivocally states that artificial surfaces cause an inordinate number of injuries relative to natural surfaces. In my opinion, we will see a regression to the mean next year.

(Besides, how do we know the nature of the injuries sustained by the Cal players when the school only states "lower body injury". For all we know, the injuries could be serious hamstring pulls, something that would sideline a player for 6-8 weeks, in other words, the rest of the season. Yes, that is very unlikely but remotely possible).

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From what I gather on cursory glance, there does seem to be some consensus that there are slightly higher rates of injury on synthetic turf, but that it's hard to draw specific conclusions due to the interplay of other factors (weather, playing surface condition, shoes).

For reference: http://plantscience.psu.edu/research/centers/ssrc/research/synthetic-turf-injuries