per usual, beargoggles is spot-on, but it will never stop an ideologue from stopping in their tracks and reflecting on their own biases. They've read it before, and will read it again -- and will always bury their head in a sand pile of their own superiority and indignation.

Three guys in the south share an image with bigoted implications, and folks go into immediate oppression olympics mode, salivating at the mouth that they have more anecdotes that exalt their ideological and identitarian narratives, and the audacity to assert their "bubbles are 'better' than yours".

Forgive me if I'm not impressed with a bunch of people needing to inform all of us that racism isn't good. It's like prefacing every conversation about violence with "murder is wrong and evil".

Not that it matters -- I don't know what people or places or regions are more racist or just worse than everybody else, and I don't particularly care -- but as a resident of the bay area for most of my life, the racism, bigotry and intolerance is strong. It's just doesn't always look the same as traditional Southern bigotry. It looks different, smells different, and more covert. It's funniest when affluent limousine liberals think they're not condescending or bigoted towards both blacks and hispanics and the poor merely because they give $5 to the homeless panhandler, supports increased taxes to aid programs that help minority populations, pander to their children about diversity, virtue signal in public, vote democrat and oppose Republicans. Yet living in their white neighborhood, walled-off from poverty and crime, haven't interacted, and never would, with minorities or working class They have the same general bigoted feelings of superiority towards people that don't look and think like them. I spent ample time with these types. It's pretty easy to 'pretend' you like everybody when you never have to deal with 'everybody'. Go spend time with everybody, then go on to people about how righteous you are.

It can be pretty surreal to think folks like these kids would be compelled to take an image like that, even as a joke, but I'm also perplexed that 18,000 Americans committed homicide last year. It's not exactly alarming to me that some number of people who haven't harmed anybody but ignorantly look down at other people for no rational reason. I'm not saying these kids should be shielded from criticism or that we should ignore these stories.

bearlyamazing said:

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The fact is, conservatives like me who aren't ideologues and who respect people of all political backgrounds have to remain completely politically neutral in everything we say in real life and post on social media or we will instantly lose friends, facebook friends and followers because of something as innocuous as voting republican. It's gotten that bad. In today's hyper-politicized political world, the very act of being a republican is to be branded instantly as a racist, sexist, homophobe or ignorant. Or all of those rolled into one. Even many people who know me and know how much money I give to feed the homeless or actually personally feed the homeless and work for racial equity would write me off if they knew I was a republican. Not everyone but too many. It's really sad. I basically never talk politics outside of occasional brief forays on the OT board.

Never in my life have I felt that way. Not as a Cal student, not anywhere. But be honest, progressives. How many republican friends do you have right now that you've stuck with since 2016? How many of you have never tried to shame anyone or shunned them for voting a different way than you or having conservative political beliefs? And be honest: Most of you probably believe I'm being deceptive about the way I've represented myself because you can't possibly believe that someone who would vote republican in today's day and age could also be fair-minded and hold the non-political values and actions that I do and it's because of exactly the kind of disconnect I mentioned.

There are so many vile, disgusting things I see in today's progressive movement that never existed in any great measure before but I would never lump every progressive person into that negative stereotype. People are complex and can't be lumped into a monolithic group. And yes, there's some vile, disgusting elements of the conservative movement but not nearly to the extent that most progressives genuinely believe. If it were as bad as progressives believe, I'd be an independent. The dominant majority of conservatives would never try to socially beat down every progressive or company who does business with progressive causes like the dominant majority of progressives do now in reverse. I've not unfriended any liberal friends on social media or in real life, even though they often post things I find repulsive. I've lost some respect for them but realize it's doesn't entirely define who they are.

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Thank you for this post. I live in Portland and relate to many of your characterizations about life as a non-liberal.

BearGoggles said:

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OaktownBear said:

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BearGoggles said:

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Big C said:

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Sickening. Here in the Bay Area, we live in a bubble. Down there, they live in their own bubble. However, all bubbles are not created equal: Ours is progressive; theirs is regressive.

While some things are more important than college football, I can't help wondering if, while we're down there this fall, maybe we could spread the word that there's a wonderful university in Northern California, where the attitude is better (and so is the weather).

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This is an unfortunate combination of arrogance, condescension, naivete, and delusion. I am not defending the photo or action. However, to assume that the Bay Area (really California) and its "progressive values" is somehow unequivocally superior to other "bubbles" is simply wrong. All bubbles are bad, because they promote intolerance, division, and a lack of empathy - your post is a great example.

The Bay Area, in particular, is one of the most intolerant and least liberal (in a traditional sense) places I've encountered. And it has gotten "progressively" worse in the last 3 decades.

The group think and intolerance of peaceful dissent or alternate viewpoints is off the charts. Dissenting views that are very much in the nationwide mainstream are de-platformed, boycotted, and attacked on an an hominem basis - rarely the on the merits. Antifa and its violent intimidation tactics have been tolerated (and implicitly endorsed) for years. People with conservative views are literally denied employment, not to mention social stature.

The totalitarian (really fascist) urges of the so called CA progressives is off the charts. The bay area outlaws straws, plastic bags, e-sigs, etc. On the streets of SFO, a person can use a heroin needle (paid for and distributed by the government), dine naked, or take a dump in the street, but that same person can't use a plastic straw or puff an e-cig.

The Bay Area is one of the least affordable places to live in the world - in no small part because of progressive anti-development attitudes. Poverty in California averages 13+%, with much higher rates in urban/progressive areas like SFO and LA. https://www.ppic.org/publication/poverty-in-california/ When factoring in housing costs, California has the highest poverty rates in the Country per the census bureau. https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/14/17856870/california-poverty-rate-housing-cost-of-living

Despite its high tax rates, California has the highest debt of any state in real dollar terms and on a per capita basis, with massive unfunded liabilities (pensions) on top of that. https://smartasset.com/credit-cards/states-with-the-most-debt

Our bubble/state is far from perfect. Keep that in mind when your judging other people's.

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First of all, I assumed his intent by talking about "bubbles" is that we both live in worlds where we are not exposed to those opinions of the other. I wouldn't say all bubbles are bad. Bubbles just exist. Americans don't know what it is like to live an Bangladesh. They never will. Understanding your bubbles is good.

I absolutely support freedom of expression. I absolutely think that people should be able to have their political views without fear of reprisal. I think people of all political persuasions can go too far in drawing lines against other political views. I think some in the Bay Area certainly do that. Would love to have that conversation. Unfortunately, you just posted a bunch of bullshyte.

Antifa is not endorsed implicitly or otherwise by any large number of the liberal population. Try getting off conservative media outlets once in a while. Are there liberal nutjobs who like them? Yes. Are their conservative nutjobs who like White Supremacists? yes. There are good people on both sides right? I would say that liberals certainly question the right's concerns about Antifa when the right doesn't seem to be nearly as concerned with White Supremacy and racist violence on their side, but very few are supporting Antifa in any way.

As for "most intolerant places you've encountered" I'd just say to you that maybe your judgment of intolerance is impacted by how close you feel to the traits that are "not tolerated". How many people like you have been murdered here for who you compared to members of the LGBTQ community? How many people like you have been murdered because of their race. Or because they talked a certain way to a member of another ethnicity. How many people like you have been murdered for their religious views or their political view? How many of your churches have been shot up? How many times have you been pulled over by a cop for no reason? How many times have you been not waited on or had a member of another race taken first when you were next in line. Or hassled for ID. Or followed by store security. Please. Let's add up the score on intolerance. I'm sorry you don't get to use a plastic bag. Some of your complaints are justified. Comparing your the pittance of intolerance you may have to face to intolerance of others elsewhere is utterly ridiculous. Straight up, I would much rather be a straight, staunchly conservative, white male in the Bay Area than a liberal black man in the Bay Area when it comes to dealing with crap on a regular basis. (I'd rather be a liberal, white male, truth be told). Your crying about the horrible intolerance you suffer in the Bay Area is so beyond the pale ridiculous compared to what other people face. To be clear, you say their is intolerance here and we should get our house in order, I'm with you. You say this is one of the most intolerant places you have encountered, you need to be called on it.

Let's be clear on a couple of things, shooting up heroin is illegal and people get cited for it even if in some locations the police don't try very hard. Taking a dump in the street is not legal. No idea on dining naked, but I've never encountered the practice. You are allowed to use a plastic straw if you bring your own. Stores can't give you one. And there are perfectly reasonable alternatives. As for either plastic straws or plastic bags, that is no different than not allowing a hog rendering plant in the city. The people of these communities have decided that plastic straws and bags are harmful to the environment and they have banned them while giving people perfectly reasonable alternatives. You don't think it's important. Hard cheese. That is not a tolerance issue any more than I am intolerant of my neighbor playing loud music at 2 in the morning.

I might be sympathetic to people being refused jobs for political views, but 99% of the time I see conservatives make this claim, the "political view" leading to the refused or lost job was something on the order of LGBTQ or minorities or women they would work with being inferior or getting jobs they aren't qualified for. When I see a lot of people losing jobs over issues that don't involve respecting the people they work with, I'll be a lot more concerned.

And I'll tell you what, the next time a 14 year old white kid is murdered for talking to a black woman in the Bay Area and a memorial is put up for the kid and people shoot it up and a bunch of black Cal kids go to the memorial and pose laughing with guns in front of it, make your point. Fact is there are several steps in that process that you can't even envision happening here.

But really, I'm truly sorry you have to use a paper straw. Bummer. #strawlivesmatter.

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Antifa (and other anarchist) groups have been tolerated (and therefore implicitly endorsed) in Berkeley since at least the 1980s. Until they recently were sued, UC and the Berkeley police stood by and did nothing while these types of groups rioted, destroyed property, and most importantly de-platformed people. Those same people would not have stood by had conservatives been acting in that fashion and attacking liberals. Other people on the left have similarly endorsed violence (punch them in the face) and other tactics involving physical intimidation - Maxine Waters, etc. And for the record, no less than Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon on CNN defended/rationalized (partly) Antifa and its tactics. Are Antifa defenders widespread - no, I never said that. But they do exist disproportionately in the Bay area and other left bubbles.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/08/14/cnn_chris_cuomo_defends_antifa_attacks_on_police_journalists_not_equal_to_fighting_bigots.html

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/08/28/don_lemon_defends_antifa_no_organization_is_perfect.html

Your ass-umptions about my judgment of intolerance are misplaced. I'm Jewish - plenty of "people like me" (your words) have in fact been murdered. My temples have been shot up. I'm sensitive to intolerance and don't deny the existence of racism/etc. But I don't pretend that my California bubble is more perfect than others. And to that point, the left "bubbles" (aka college campuses, Bay Area and New York) have a lot more problems with antisemitism than most other places (including the South). The common denominator among the bubbles is intolerance (which was my original point).

Your attempt to justify the straw/plastic laws, refusal to enforce heroin laws and basic hygiene in SFO - because of course none of those things are as bad as racism or violence - intentionally obscures the point (you have constructed a strawman with the straw issue). I never claimed those things were equal to racism. What I did claim is that the mindset in the Bay Area bubble is fundamentally intolerant and disrespectful of individual rights with incredible instincts to true fascists tactics (i.e., using the power of law and violence to stamp out dissent).

Your lack of sympathy for conservatives seeking/keeping jobs in the bay area is emblematic of the problem. You see no problem with enforcing conformity of thought through economic coercion. Brendan Eich literally lost his job because he donated in support of Prop 8 and held a personal view that was at the time identical to President Obama's (and the vast majority of other Americans at the time). He didn't do anything in the work place to impose his view or discriminate - yet he couldn't work in the bay area. And you alluded to the problems at google, where the company promotes and provides internal bulletin boards (with truly bat crap crazy stuff on them) and then purges conservatives who hold opinions that offend the far left.

You posted: " When I see a lot of people losing jobs over issues that don't involve respecting the people they work with, I'll be a lot more concerned." The problem with that approach is that progressives take the position that they are "disrespected" or "harmed" by the mere existence/expression of opinions they disagree with (they even consider that a form of "violence"). Is that a common viewpoint? Probably not in many parts of the country (and not among old time liberals). But it is a prevalent view in the Bay Area bubble and on college campuses - and VERY prevalent at tech places like Google, FB, twitter, etc. Basically you're saying you don't object to the de-facto existence of thought police as long as the police are on your side.

What is the effect of all this? Many non-liberals are afraid to participate in Bay Area politics OUTSIDE of work or even make political donations. Of course, that is what the left wants - complete de-platforming and the elimination of dissent.

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My discussion of plastic straws and bags is not a straw man. You are the one that made them a focal point of your argument that the Bay Area is one of the most intolerant places. I say again, if that even makes your list of evidence that the Bay Area is intolerant, you don't have much to complain about. Having to use a paper straw might be like number 10,000 on the list of any minority.

Your position is massively hypocritical. You are really concerned about conservatives not being able to speak their minds in the Bay Area. Do you think we liberals feel comfortable walking around red states and much of rural America espousing our views on things? Conservatives are very concerned about how conservative speakers are treated at Cal, but ignore the dozens of conservative universities that don't have liberal speakers on campus to be treated any kind of way. Are you concerned when polls show over 60% of Alabamans say they would not vote for any candidate for any office that doesn't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible? Is that not elimination of dissent to you?

You take the position progressives feel they are "disrespected" or harmed by the mere existence/expression of opinions they disagree with. Except that conservatives frequently take the position that intolerance is a political view or a religious view. It's just my religious view that gays don't get the same rights as others. It's just my political view that women I work with are unqualified diversity hires.

I find your characterization of Brendan Eich a perfect example of this. He wasn't fired. (and, unlike what you said, he can and does work in the Bay Area) If he wasn't CEO, he never would have had a problem. He resigned from leadership of the company because his position on gay marriage was losing his company money. Because members of the LGBTQ community and their friends were not using his company's service. So what is your issue? That these people should have ignored the fact that he helped fund a campaign that sought to deprive them of a basic right that is given to straight people (and when asked doubled down on that view) and use his company's services anyway? Why should they? Because it's his political opinion? Well, their political opinion was otherwise. And let me guess. While it's not okay to boycott his product, if they went to a baker to buy a wedding cake, it would be okay for the baker to refuse services to them because it is their religious views. And then if they need a birthday cake the next day, they should not boycott the baker who refused them service because that would be punishing the baker for a mere disagreement. Goose. Gander.

Are you complaining about Colin Kaepernick not getting a job because fans threatened to boycott. Or fans boycotting the NFL over the whole anthem thing. Or conservatives boycotting Yeti coolers because they dropped the NRA and going on YouTube with videos of them blowing up or shooting their coolers. Or boycotting Starbucks over a host of issues. Or AARP. Or Budweiser for an allegedly pro-immigration commercial? Or Nike? Or Adidas? There are a long list of conservative boycotts of mere political opinions.

I don't care about you being conservative. I care about your selective, hypocritical outrage. What you are concerned about is not level of intolerance. Hey, at least no one is arguing to "send you back" where you came from. You are concerned about intolerance of your opinions and frankly I don't think it is even that. You are concerned about losing. You need to face facts. The California Republican Party is a disaster. They took a hardline position against immigration and minority issues right when the state was becoming a majority minority. Bought them an election or two and lost them a state. They turned hard right on social issues in a state that elected moderate, pro-business Republicans as its governors for 24 out of 28 years ending in 2011. Now they can't even dream of statewide office. It isn't because conservatives are afraid to express their views. Are they fearfully casting their anonymous ballots for Democrats? You are just outnumbered. Your neighbors don't agree with you on policies. So you need to use a paper straw. I've heard plenty about bans on plastic straws and bags being stupid. I hear plenty of conservative arguments. Sorry. You just lost. Hey, I've been around long enough to see the liberals play the victim card in a massive way. Now I guess the pendulum has swung and it is conservative's turn to play the victim card. The word snowflake comes to mind

Not sure you'll find many true leftists that will tell you CA isn't a racist place. In fact, that's kind of their thing. They *do* believe that very much so.

Another Bear said:

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socaliganbear said:

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Not sure you'll find many true leftists that will tell you CA isn't a racist place. In fact, that's kind of their thing. They *do* believe that very much so.

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You're not very smart are you because that is one jackass statement.

I believe the Bay Area and California is one of the most tolerant places in the country...but yes, it has a racist history and racism is still present today.

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You are arguably the most intolerant (and hostile) poster on these boards in the face of any disagreement. In a sort of back handed way you are supporting his claim in that you personify the bay area/cali pathology.

Like women, senior citizens, and a gay Latino youth being violently attacked at a candidate Trump rally in San Jose, while the police did nothing? (Possibly union thugs arranged by Hillary's political operative Robert Creamer, husband of a Democrat House member, who also met with Obama in the White House.)

Attacks by masked Antifa against an Asian male photographer in Portland?

Police being hunted down while BO was president, and now police being harrassed and threatened by mobs in NYC under socialist de Blasio? It starts with water and a cement mixture, what is next?

Conservative African Americans like Candace Owens, Dr. Ben Carson, and the Blexit movement getting all kinds of harrassment and threats.

BTW, it is our current POTUS who pushed and signed prison reform, mixed bag as it is. And a secure border us common sense, not racism.

wifeisafurd said:

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UrsaMajor said:

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SoCalie said:

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California has a pretty ugly history of racism as well - and not just against people of African descent. Hopefully, we've learned from our past and will continue to progress toward equality.

I remember Litwack talking about James D. Phelan - former mayor of SF, and Senator for CA (and Berkeley law school grad) - who ran on the platform of, "Keeping California White." Yikes.

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Or Governor Hiram Johnson, who made killing Native Americans official state policy and even approved a bounty on them.t

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To be overly philosophical, isn't this really the history or humans? Violence against "others" has been accepted and condoned through the ages. Most of us would accept the premise that California today is more accepting of diversity than some other places, but is not perfect. No place is.

Getting back to the OP, everyone including Ole Miss thinks the guys are wrong and s/b condemned. Ole Miss is taking action against them. I'm not sure why this had to end up in a referendum of long posts on California.

If I based my travel plans on everyone else in places I went had to follow in my values and views, I would never travel.

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Ole Miss is not taking action. They've known about it since March. The fraternity took action immediately upon learning of it a couple days ago and good on them. The school has thrown up their hands and said there is nothing they can do. They issued a statement to that effect in the last 48 hours. Many think that isn't good enough. I don't think anyone thinks this is representative of most people in the community. But you can't give the school credit for taking action when they haven't

Republicans like to rail against PC but complain when anything that is said offends their delicate sensibilities. They complain about antifa (who as far as I can tell has never elected a president) but are curiously silent when the self-proclaimed most popular conservative in history, with over 90% approval ratings by republicans, trampled over every single norm in our country and traffics in any number of vicious attacks on perceived enemies. The antifa foxation (typo intended) is particularly instructive. I've literally never come into contact with an antifa member or sympathizer in my decades in California but I've met plenty of bigots and aholes of all stripes. Antifa is a small group of extremists who are more like soccer hooligans than terrorists, and this is accepting everything conservatives say about them as gospel since, as I noted above, I've never heard anyone endorse antifa.

Conservatives should worry about their own communities before condemning those of others. Just like Trump tells minority congressmen to go clean up there "infested" districts, I would recommend all conservatives clean up the conservative movement in this country before they attack progressive communities. There is plenty of self-work to be done but once you guys take care of that, happy to help you find work arounds for plastic straws (bring your own), poop in the tenderloin (avoid the tenderloin), and antifa (don't support white supremacist rallies). Ok I guess I lied since there are easy solutions to your hot button issues.

GBear4Life said:

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OaktownBear said:

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Ole Miss is not taking action.

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Why would the school take action? Aside from appeasing the deluded PC crowd.

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WIAF said the school was taking action. I merely corrected him.

GBear4Life said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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Republicans like to rail against PC but complain when anything that is said offends their delicate sensibilities. They complain about antifa (who as far as I can tell has never elected a president) but are curiously silent when the self-proclaimed most popular conservative in history, with over 90% approval ratings by republicans, trampled over every single norm in our country and traffics in any number of vicious attacks on perceived enemies. The antifa foxation (typo intended) is particularly instructive. I've literally never come into contact with an antifa member or sympathizer in my decades in California but I've met plenty of bigots and aholes of all stripes. Antifa is a small group of extremists who are more like soccer hooligans than terrorists, and this is accepting everything conservatives say about them as gospel since, as I noted above, I've never heard anyone endorse antifa.

Conservatives should worry about their own communities before condemning those of others. Just like Trump tells minority congressmen to go clean up there "infested" districts, I would recommend all conservatives clean up the conservative movement in this country before they attack progressive communities. There is plenty of self-work to be done but once you guys take care of that, happy to help you find work arounds for plastic straws (bring your own), poop in the tenderloin (avoid the tenderloin), and antifa (don't support white supremacist rallies). Ok I guess I lied since there are easy solutions to your hot button issues.

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Antifa = commits violence

Liberals: dismissive ("nobody likes them, we don't need to talk about them")

Insensitive speech = liberal outrage, and demanding of urgent social, political, or legal response.

This is purely the result of ideology, partisanship and tribalism.

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The issue with the Antifa discussion is that conservative media are deliberately overblowing the scope and severity of what they do and then pin their action on all liberals. When liberals respond you claim they are defending Antifa. To be quite honest, most liberals who do not partake in right wing media have never heard of Antifa.

It is like arresting a guy for mugging, yelling he's a murderer and then when someone says well, no, he's not, saying "AHA! You are defending the mugger!"

I hate Antifa. I don't believe in shouting down speakers. I don't believe in punching people or property damage. Their tactics are immoral and they only serve to make their cause look bad. Please arrest them and throw them in jail for the crimes they commit.

They are not a terrorist organization. They have caused no deaths. The number of Antifa incidents in a country of 300 million is very small. We should work toward it being zero.

That said, 2/3 if the terrorist incidents last year were instigated by right wing ideology. Antifa learned a lot of their tactics from right wing extremists who follow liberal demonstrators all over the country. It is a legitimate question why Democrats should be required to put significantly more energy into the Antifa issue when Republicans are not following suit.

When the Republican president looks at a demonstration where a right wing extremist commits murder and says there are good people on both sides, your moral high ground on Antifa is lost.

I am happy to decry Antifa. Shouting down people is wrong. Destroying property is wrong. Using any level of physical violence is wrong except to defend yourself against physical violence. I am not going along with the fiction that they represent a significant number of liberals. I am not going along with the fiction that they pose a greater threat than right wing organizations. And until conservatives decide to wake up every morning decrying the violence committed by extremists on the right, I do not feel that I have to do so or be held accountable for what every left wing whacko does.