OaktownBear said:
01Bear said:
OaktownBear said:
01Bear said:
OaktownBear said:
01Bear said:
OaktownBear said:
Cave Bear said:
MoragaBear said:
Notre Dame is scheduled out for years. EVERYONE wants them on their schedule. There was supposedly no way to make a return game work. Just way too much juggling involved.
According to fbschedules.com Notre Dame is only fully scheduled for next season and 2021. They have ten games already scheduled for each season between 2022 and 2025, after which their number of scheduled games drops to single digits.
We waited 6 years to get our return visit from Michigan State. If it takes longer then so be it, both of our programs would still be around in 2030 if it took that long. Being "scheduled out for years" should have nothing to do with this. Obviously ND did not wish to make a return visit and our AD was willing to accommodate, and our motives for doing so are fairly obvious at this point.
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If the choice is between adding an amazing roadtrip that will simultaneously reward our fans, raise our profile, add 1.9m in revenue but not get a return trip vs. status quo, there's not even a millimeter of doubt in my mind about taking option 1.
Reward our fans? You mean the ~5,000 who will be making the trip, not the other ~30,000 (or more) who would have attended our scheduled home game vs UNLV. They are "rewarded" with the amazing experience of watching television from their couch.
Raise our profile? Only if we win. Consider the following:
-- Since 2010, Pac-12 teams are 3-24 when visiting ranked OOC teams (including 0-4 at "neutral" sites that were much closer to the OOC's home) and 19-8 when hosting ranked OOC teams. Ranked Pac-12 teams are 1-11 away (plus "neutral") and 8-0 at home.
-- Since 2010 (the year Brian Kelly became HC), Notre Dame is 7-3 vs Pac-12 teams at home, 4-7 on the road (not counting a win vs ASU at a neutral site in Texas).
-- Since 2000, we have played four games vs ranked OOC teams on the road (including a game vs KSU in Kansas City, MO) and went 1-3.
Add 1.9m in revenue? You forgot to subtract the anticipated revenue from the home game we jettisoned. I don't know what that would have brought in, but it would considerably offset the $1.9m (from which our travel expenses must also be deducted, which are not trivial).
There is no doubt in my mind that this is a terrible option. Aside from whatever small (in the big picture) revenue we might get, the only winners here are the small minority of Cal fans with the disposable income (and inclination) to make the trip. The losers are the tens of thousands of Cal fans who won't/can't make the trip along with the competitive health of the program itself, which trades a likely OOC win in 2022 vs UNLV for a likely loss vs ND without the prospect of getting a crack at ND in our house where we might face them with a much better chance of getting the win.
You want to ask the players whether they want to playa home game against UNLV or a game at Notre Dame? Do you think you'll get a single vote for the former?
You want to ask the players if they are okay being disrespected by ND, the Cal administration, and the multitude of Cal players who seem to agree that Cal is not a peer of ND's? That these folks all believe Cal is so inferior to the South Bend team that they are okay with ND not reciprocating with a game at Cal?
I'm happy to bring your perspective to the players and after they stop laughing at your absurdity and tell you they would love to play this game will you stand down?
Sure, but also make sure you record them laughing and post the video of it. While you're at it, make sure you record and post your telling them that ND's behavior is an insult* to the Cal football program and the players with which you and others like you agree. That, after all, is my position.
*Specifically, that they're all ND's b*tches/inferiors.
I'm not going to tell them that ND's behavior is an insult because it isn't. But I would be happy to present that perspective and let them judge. That is exactly what I think they'd laugh at.
Look, I frankly don't care if we play Notre Dame. But I do negotiate contracts for a living and business deals get done because they are mutually beneficial, not because they are equal. I would look at each side and what their alternatives to a deal are. If there is a landing point where the deal is better than all alternatives, a deal gets done. Businesses that don't do deals because they perceive that to be unequal don't stay in business very long.
I would not support Cal approaching Notre Dame or accepting a proposal from Notre Dame to do a one time road trip with no return years from now. Why? Because there is an opportunity cost. Accepting that deal may cost you a home and home deal with another quality team. That is not the situation here.
We are talking about a schedule that is already baked. On the Cal side there are two alternatives. 1. Play a home game against UNLV; 2. Play a road game against Notre Dame. On the Notre Dame side it isn't as well defined but there are basically 4 alternatives. 1. Play a home with Cal. 2. Play a home against someone you apparently like less than Cal; 3 play a home and home with Cal. 4. Play a home and home with someone else.
Let's get a couple things straight. Notre Dame is in fact the most prestigious college football program. It has by far the largest fan base and the most nationwide fan base. This has been so for the entirety of the modern college football era. Doesn't mean they are the best on the field. This pretty much happened because they were the number one Catholic school football team and Catholics absolutely rooted for them across the board for a long time. And Catholics are a very large segment of American society, much larger than any alumni base. This is the team that had a national television contract when they weren't even very good. This is the team that necessitated the rule that you couldn't participate in a bowl with a losing record because when there were a lot fewer bowls a bowl invited them when they had a losing record passing up 8 and 9 win teams in the process. South Bend is a legendary location for college football. Again, I don't personally care. I won't be going and I don't care if I ever see South Bend or Touchdown Jesus or any of it. But it is the reality.
So, when I look at this from Cal's perspective, if my choice is playing UNLV at home, or playing ND on the road - with compensation that makes it financially viable to do so - I don't see that is a hard choice. My fans will be much more excited by the latter. I can probably sell packages to them. My players will love it (sorry, but many will tell their grandkids whether you guys like to accept that fact or not). You are trading a nondescript experience for a highlight experience. I don't think the "people will think Cal is a little *****" argument is realistic. No one cares. I don't think it sets a precedent for negotiating with other teams. You just tell them it was a one time deal that made sense only in those circumstances and if they balk, you say you are not Notre Dame, and if they still balk, you say "Have a nice day then."
When I look at Notre Dame's side of the equation, I think it is equally clear. Their number 1 option is to play us one time at home. I can see big appeal for them. We are a prestigious university. We haven't played each other in decades. Our politics makes us an interesting "character". It will be a fun home game for their fans. Their #2 option is probably their third favorite option. They don't want to go there. However, their least favorite option is a home and home with us. Why? Because of Stanford. They already come to the Bay Area every other year and have for years. What the hell does another roadie to the Bay Area do for their fans? What does it do for recruiting? What does it do for their players. If I'm Notre Dame I have zero interest in that. I can use that road trip to score a better home and home for me. Not necessarily with a better program, but with a better fit for my schedule. Note, Notre Dame has played UCLA 4 times, 2 times in the last 55 years and only once in LA. I think you have USC to thank for that. Much of that time UCLA was a big name program.
So, yeah. If I'm Cal I push for a home and home. And if I'm Notre Dame, I say "Look, we know you had to ask, but that just isn't going to work. This is all we can offer." And if I'm Cal, I ask again. and again. And if I'm Notre Dame, I lay out what I just laid out for you and say, "look, we'd like to play you, we understand you need funding to make up for losing a home game. Here is $1.9M. We can't offer a return date. I think you understand why. If that works for you, great. If not. No hard feelings."
And then Cal needs to make a decision. I would argue it is a decision between cutting off their nose for pride or doing the best deal for them. Notre Dame at South Bend is simply better than UNLV at home.
There simply was no other deal that made sense for Notre Dame. I get that some of you think that negotiation is about pounding the table or smooth talking or enforcing your will. It simply isn't.
Maybe we go out there, have a good showing and they decide they don't need to alternate a half hearted showing from Stanford fans in South Bend with anti-Catholic bullshyte from the Stanford band in Stanford and we screw over our rival and take their series from them. Or, more likely, we just have a one time game that is a hell of a lot more interesting than UNLV.
I do not agree with people that see this as great exposure or whatever. Lots of teams play Notre Dame. Lots of teams beat Notre Dame. I don't see any teams making their bones against Notre Dame. But it was the only deal that made sense for both teams and it was a significant improvement over the alternative.
The b-b-b-b-b-b-but we'll be their b I t c h argument is just flat out inane and immature.
Because ND is he only premier football program that Cal could've used to replace the UNLV game? Because Cal couldn't have scheduled a game with ND some tome other than 2022? Please.
Cal had other options, just because this was what happened doesn't mean it's the entire world of Cal's possibilities.
Also, why the heck would Cal need to play ND? To recruit the Chicago talent? There are other teams in that area Cal could've played/scheduled, including Northwestern and Illinois. If we open up the idea to recruiting the talent in the Midwest, there are even more option, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio State. Whether they were available in 2022 may be in doubt but Cal did have other options.
Basically, your premise is as flawed as you are condescending. Cal did not absolutely have to do a deal with ND.
Yours is the premise that is flawed and you are the one being holier than thou. You can't just name a bunch of schools that exist and say "we cold have played them" Schedules get made years in advance. Not two years. If you read my post, I said I would not do this deal years in advance BECAUSE IT COULD POSSIBLY FORECLOSE A BETTER SERIES. But today, in 2020, the 2022 schedule is baked. No we couldn't have played Northwestern or Illinois or Michigan or Wisconsin or Ohio State. If this was announced for the 2026 schedule, I would ENTIRELY AGREE that we should not do this deal so that we could attempt to schedule one of those other teams. But NOW, the option is UNLV or Notre Dame (or something worse than UNLV). No other options were viable or being entertained. If you want to ask why we didn't get a better game than UNLV when other teams might have been available, fine. But at this point in time the options were UNLV and Notre Dame. Not "Hey Michigan! Do you have a spot on your schedule in 2 years for a home and home?" If you are going to make a point that stupid, it is easy to be condescending.
From your other post, obviously your real issue is you hate Notre Dame. That is fine. You should have been honest about that from the beginning.
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But if you're okay with that because football, be my guest. We have different principles and priorities.
So, that is effing bullshyte, dude. If you wanted to have a conversation about college football and rape, have the conversation. To be talking about whether we should schedule a road only series with a team and after 100 posts go "Oh yeah. Well I hate them because they enabled rape. I guess you are all okay with that. Mic drop!" is total bullshyte. No one was arguing that. If that was your issue with scheduling this game, say so and make your case so people can respond on the merits. Frankly, I have no idea what the specifics are of the allegations at Notre Dame. And I think your holier than thou attitude is bull. If 01 is your graduation year, you watched an alleged rapist (and sorry, pretty obviously guilty) that our coach knowingly brought to our community run around and catch passes. A coach that to this day is lauded in Cal circles for his ethics and morality. How much have you yelled about that? I yelled a lot about it at the time. I also yelled when I was in school and a very ugly gang rape allegation was very quickly swept under the rug. The only time I've ever known Cal athletic department to not circle the wagons on football and basketball is the harassment case a few years ago, and that was mainly because Cal had gotten caught handling harassment cases with professors so badly that they couldn't ignore it. I'll buy that you really care about the problem of sexual assault in college sports when you take a stand that hurts. Otherwise, principles and priorities are just what apply to other people. Until then, don't turn a thread about the merits of a road game into a moral high ground issue when it wasn't even the topic of discussion.
Wait, what? I completely missed that rape accusation by a Cal football player, let alone that it was covered up by the team and administration. If you have a link, I'd appreciate it if you'd pass it along (even as a DM).
As for my loathing of ND based on its history of covering up rapes, at least one of which led to a victim's suicide, this has nothing to do with my views on the upcoming scheduling change except insofar as I am disgusted by how many fellow Cal alum think it's okay to capitulate to the idea that Cal is somehow inferior to that pathetic excuse for an institute of higher learning and its football program.
Yes, it galls me to think that anyone, let alone Cal alumni, would think we should be grateful that ND would deign to host Cal but refuse to allow Cal to return the favor (even some time down the road). Again, this is a slap on the face that anyone who thinks about this can understand.
As I mentioned before, merely as a matter of etiquette, this was a plain insult. If we want to get "street" about it, then Cal's being treated like a ho. Cal is told to show up at ND's home at a time that's convenient for ND, provide it with a diversion for a couple hours, told that it will not given the courtesy of a home visit, and then given a little money for the Uber ride there and back.
Worse, it's not like Cal was struggling to fill an open slot in its schedule. Sure, Cal was scheduled to play "only" UNLV. But it was at least a game that was part of a series where the other team/school respected Cal as a peer and didn't treat it as its b*tch. If anything, Cal should've told ND to go pound sand as it already had a game scheduled for that day as a matter of honoring its prior commitment, which you admit was scheduled years in advance.
As for your suggestion that Cal couldn't schedule a home and home with ND if it wanted to play this game in 2022, as has been mentioned, ND had opened dates in 2025. Furthermore, there's nothing that said ND couldn't agree to schedule that game at Cal even farther down the road. After all, as you said, games are scheduled years in advance.
So what if ND has a game at the Furd every even year, that means it doesn't play at the Furd in odd years. That means it could schedule a game at Cal in *checks calendar* 2025.
Moreover, why should Cal have to bend over to accommodate ND when ND is the one scrambling to fill a hole in its schedule? Let alone why is Cal working so hard to accommodate ND's schedule, you know the same schedule that caused the Big Game to be moved up from the last game in the season so that the Furd and ND can meet for their seriesatbtheir leisure. Why does Cal want the Furd's sloppy seconds, let alone be treated like it's ND's second choice.
Why should Cal be happy with any of that?
I can't fathom how any self-respecting Cal fan can be okay with any of this. Apparently, for you all, self-respect means nothing so long as you get to visit some place that has some football history. Here's a little shocker, Cal also has its own claim to football history. Cal is every bit as blueblooded as ND.
Sure, Cal's overall win-loss isn't as great as ND's. Yes, Cal fell on hard times at leas as of the late 50s/early 60s. But that doesn't mean Cal's football tradition isn't as proud as ND's. If anything, it goes to show just how much better is Cal's football tradition. Despite the decades of mediocrity, Cal never gave up on football. When seemingly countless other schools outspend Cal, Cal has worked within its limited budget to find a way to field a winning program capable of challenging (and beating) any other college football program on any given Saturday with its limited budget.
Hell, for that reason alone, Cal fans should hold their heads up high. We should be proud of our alma mater. We should salute our football program for overcoming even greater odds to achieve what success it's had that other schools. We shouldn't be happy that some other school is squeezing Cal into an open date in its schedule. We should demand that Cal be treated with more respect than that.
If at the end of the day, you disagree with me. That's your prerogative. You can be happy that Cal is considered a safety-net. You can lend credence to the Furd taunt that Cal is a backup school. As for me, I have a little more pride than that.
(Also, I don't know about you, but I was told that Cal football is not a business. I was under the impression that Cal is a non-profit institute of higher education. In any case, I highly doubt Cal would go out of business if it maintained its integrity and told ND to *****off when approached as a last minute replacement.)
