Fox is now officially on the clock.

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BearSD
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9:35a, 3/29/21
Again: Fox has to recruit much better or he'll never be a success here.

There are comments above talking about Oregon State and how Tinkle is getting the most out of them -- that's missing the point that while the raw talent on Oregon State's roster is only average for the Pac-12, the raw talent on Cal's roster is far below average. Getting the most out of the raw talent on the current roster would be finishing 9th instead of 12th.

If we want the Bears to finish better than 9th, and that's what all of us (except the trolls) want to see, then a massive recruiting upgrade is needed.
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calumnus
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In reply to BearSD • 9:54p, 3/29/21
BearSD said:
Again: Fox has to recruit much better or he'll never be a success here.

There are comments above talking about Oregon State and how Tinkle is getting the most out of them -- that's missing the point that while the raw talent on Oregon State's roster is only average for the Pac-12, the raw talent on Cal's roster is far below average. Getting the most out of the raw talent on the current roster would be finishing 9th instead of 12th.

If we want the Bears to finish better than 9th, and that's what all of us (except the trolls) want to see, then a massive recruiting upgrade is needed.


Cal has finished higher than OSU in the recruiting rankings most years, including the last three.

Cal just finished last in the PAC-12. 3-17 in league play. Cal is #303 in the nation in scoring, #321 in tempo.

If we aren't getting the most from this roster (and we aren't) why would better players, especially players with NBA aspirations, want to come here? So they can underachieve on a mediocre team? That is what Fox ran into at Georgia.

It is not like Mark Fox is a former NBA player or charismatic salesman. It is not like he has deep roots and connections on the West Coast, knows all the high school and AAU coaches....I don't think he even sees basketball as fun. He always talks about "needing to work harder." To his credit he is clean. So how is he going to get top recruits to come here so he can make them "work harder than they have ever worked before"?

The best prayer is we have a big jump next year with Bradley and Kelly as seniors and that leads to a good 2022 class. Or there is a 5 star son of an alum who always wanted to play for Cal...
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59bear
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In reply to BearSD • 7:43a, 3/30/21
BearSD said:
Again: Fox has to recruit much better or he'll never be a success here.

There are comments above talking about Oregon State and how Tinkle is getting the most out of them -- that's missing the point that while the raw talent on Oregon State's roster is only average for the Pac-12, the raw talent on Cal's roster is far below average. Getting the most out of the raw talent on the current roster would be finishing 9th instead of 12th.

If we want the Bears to finish better than 9th, and that's what all of us (except the trolls) want to see, then a massive recruiting upgrade is needed.
There is always the possibility that if the proposed new pro option for kids out of high school gets off the ground it will siphon off another layer of the 1/done guys and, in turn, increase the importance of player development over recruiting. Would it be enough to really have an effect? I doubt it. Recruiting is always going to be a big part of success in the college game whether it be high schoolers or free agents (nee transfers).
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sluggo
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In reply to 59bear • 9:19a, 3/30/21
59bear said:
BearSD said:
Again: Fox has to recruit much better or he'll never be a success here.

There are comments above talking about Oregon State and how Tinkle is getting the most out of them -- that's missing the point that while the raw talent on Oregon State's roster is only average for the Pac-12, the raw talent on Cal's roster is far below average. Getting the most out of the raw talent on the current roster would be finishing 9th instead of 12th.

If we want the Bears to finish better than 9th, and that's what all of us (except the trolls) want to see, then a massive recruiting upgrade is needed.
There is always the possibility that if the proposed new pro option for kids out of high school gets off the ground it will siphon off another layer of the 1/done guys and, in turn, increase the importance of player development over recruiting. Would it be enough to really have an effect? I doubt it. Recruiting is always going to be a big part of success in the college game whether it be high schoolers or free agents (nee transfers).
I have been thinking about this, and I believe it is already having an impact. Some top players are already going to straight to the G league. The best players stay only one year. Watching the tournament this year for the first time in a few years, the quality is the lowest I have ever seen, which means the bar for success is not so high. If you take UCLA, the players are good, but I don't see a clear NBA player among them. For OSU, I like Ethan Thompson as a college player, but his NBA prospects are murky at best.

I think player development and Xs and Os are the most important they have ever been. Which could play into Cal's hands under the right coach.
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BearSD
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In reply to calumnus • 9:51a, 3/30/21
calumnus said:
BearSD said:
Again: Fox has to recruit much better or he'll never be a success here.

There are comments above talking about Oregon State and how Tinkle is getting the most out of them -- that's missing the point that while the raw talent on Oregon State's roster is only average for the Pac-12, the raw talent on Cal's roster is far below average. Getting the most out of the raw talent on the current roster would be finishing 9th instead of 12th.

If we want the Bears to finish better than 9th, and that's what all of us (except the trolls) want to see, then a massive recruiting upgrade is needed.


Cal has finished higher than OSU in the recruiting rankings most years, including the last three.
Recruiting rankings are guesses that don't guarantee how good a player actually is. Oregon State put quite a bit more talent on the floor this season than Cal did. (Also, one of the Beavers' best players is a transfer, not a freshman recruit.)

Any coach who can't bring to Cal a roster as good as those coached by Braun, Monty, or Martin won't win enough games. Period.
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calumnus
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In reply to BearSD • 6:02p, 3/30/21
BearSD said:
calumnus said:
BearSD said:
Again: Fox has to recruit much better or he'll never be a success here.

There are comments above talking about Oregon State and how Tinkle is getting the most out of them -- that's missing the point that while the raw talent on Oregon State's roster is only average for the Pac-12, the raw talent on Cal's roster is far below average. Getting the most out of the raw talent on the current roster would be finishing 9th instead of 12th.

If we want the Bears to finish better than 9th, and that's what all of us (except the trolls) want to see, then a massive recruiting upgrade is needed.


Cal has finished higher than OSU in the recruiting rankings most years, including the last three.
Recruiting rankings are guesses that don't guarantee how good a player actually is. Oregon State put quite a bit more talent on the floor this season than Cal did. (Also, one of the Beavers' best players is a transfer, not a freshman recruit.)

Any coach who can't bring to Cal a roster as good as those coached by Braun, Monty, or Martin won't win enough games. Period.


Agreed. Player evaluation and finding "undervalued" players is part of "recruiting." A good recruiter lands the good talent everyone else is going after and/or finds the talent others overlooked.

My point was that this Cal team could have been better with better coaching, not that we would have been Sweet 16 material. We also would have been better with Vanover, Sueing and McNeil rather than the three transfers or the Euros.

You got to either recruit well or coach up the players well/have good Xs and Os. Cuonzo was the former. OSU is more the later. Both is better. Gonzaga is that now. Maybe OSU gets a recruiting bump now? That is what happened with Monty at Stanford. I just see Fox as neither. I hope I am wrong because it seems like we are stuck with him for awhile.
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Fyght4Cal
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In reply to sluggo • 6:43p, 3/30/21
sluggo said:
59bear said:
BearSD said:
Again: Fox has to recruit much better or he'll never be a success here.

There are comments above talking about Oregon State and how Tinkle is getting the most out of them -- that's missing the point that while the raw talent on Oregon State's roster is only average for the Pac-12, the raw talent on Cal's roster is far below average. Getting the most out of the raw talent on the current roster would be finishing 9th instead of 12th.

If we want the Bears to finish better than 9th, and that's what all of us (except the trolls) want to see, then a massive recruiting upgrade is needed.
There is always the possibility that if the proposed new pro option for kids out of high school gets off the ground it will siphon off another layer of the 1/done guys and, in turn, increase the importance of player development over recruiting. Would it be enough to really have an effect? I doubt it. Recruiting is always going to be a big part of success in the college game whether it be high schoolers or free agents (nee transfers).
I have been thinking about this, and I believe it is already having an impact. Some top players are already going to straight to the G league. The best players stay only one year. Watching the tournament this year for the first time in a few years, the quality is the lowest I have ever seen, which means the bar for success is not so high. If you take UCLA, the players are good, but I don't see a clear NBA player among them. For OSU, I like Ethan Thompson as a college player, but his NBA prospects are murky at best.

I think player development and Xs and Os are the most important they have ever been. Which could play into Cal's hands under the right coach.
Thanks for mentioning the lowered quality of play. It makes me feel less like an old crank. The Alabama free throw failures finally did me in.

How much of this is due to COVID-19 is unclear. But it seems that elite players would do much better making money and playing against each other in a professional league. The question for such a league is, can they match the big NCAA tourney and the NBA Playoffs stages? Or does that even matter?

Even without the best talent, March Madness will survive. It's a great platform. The college loyalties and gambling addiction will keep interest high. Certainly, Cal can thrive in this scenario.
Patience is a virtue, but I’m not into virtue signaling these days.
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diva1
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1:02p, 3/31/21
Fox needs to do what Enfield did at USC and Cuonzo did at Mizz
Find an asst coach with one or two star aau sons and hire him.
Or hire one of the Oakland Soldiers coaches so we have a pipeline of talent.
No coach can win more than he loses with our roster.
Looks like Fox can coach but he also needs to recruit better
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In reply to ClayK • 2:11p, 3/31/21
ClayK
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In reply to [removed post] • 2:35p, 3/31/21
Stanford Jonah said:
ClayK said:
As always, the question is this: If you fire the coach, can you hire someone better?
And the answer, as it always is when someone brings up this stupid point, is YES.
And that person would be?
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In reply to ClayK • 2:50p, 3/31/21
59bear
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In reply to [removed post] • 7:18a, 4/1/21
Stanford Jonah said:
ClayK said:
As always, the question is this: If you fire the coach, can you hire someone better?
And the answer, as it always is when someone brings up this stupid point, is YES.
Possible, yes but Cal has an abysmal record over the last 60+ years in terms of luring an upgrade to Berkeley.
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ClayK
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In reply to [removed post] • 8:18a, 4/1/21
Stanford Jonah said:
ClayK said:
Stanford Jonah said:
ClayK said:
As always, the question is this: If you fire the coach, can you hire someone better?
And the answer, as it always is when someone brings up this stupid point, is YES.
And that person would be?
Many people.

Your question is dumb.
Now there's an answer that invites further reasoned discussion ...
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BearlyCareAnymore
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In reply to ClayK • 11:58a, 4/1/21
ClayK said:
Stanford Jonah said:
ClayK said:
Stanford Jonah said:
ClayK said:
As always, the question is this: If you fire the coach, can you hire someone better?
And the answer, as it always is when someone brings up this stupid point, is YES.
And that person would be?
Many people.

Your question is dumb.
Now there's an answer that invites further reasoned discussion ...


What employer keeps problem employees until they have their replacement lined up. This is a bizarre Cal fan only, argument. In 2000 when this question was asked I didn't know the answer. In 2001, I knew the answer was Jeff Tedford.

There are many qualified coaches out there. If we were 11-7 or 10-8, you'd have a point. What is your fear? That we would be last worse? I certainly will not promise you a new coach will finish first place, but I sure as hell promise s/he will not finish 13th.
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concordtom
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In reply to Jeff82 • 12:24p, 4/1/21
Jeff82 said:
Fox is now officially on the clock.
Wyking was out the door, and people were freaking out livid by this time.
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concordtom
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12:27p, 4/1/21
#1 consideration for a coach is that he's got to be able to attract recruits.
Who is Mark Fox?
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Fyght4Cal
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In reply to concordtom • 4:31p, 4/1/21
concordtom said:
#1 consideration for a coach is that he's got to be able to attract recruits.
Who is Mark Fox?
This is why I was pleading with The Almighty to give us Jason Kidd. Unfortunately, He never answered my voicemails.
Patience is a virtue, but I’m not into virtue signaling these days.
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Big C
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In reply to Fyght4Cal • 9:24p, 4/1/21
Fyght4Cal said:
concordtom said:
#1 consideration for a coach is that he's got to be able to attract recruits.
Who is Mark Fox?
This is why I was pleading with The Almighty to give us Jason Kidd. Unfortunately, He never answered my voicemails.

Who answers voicemails anymore? He didn't get to be the Almighty by staying stuck in ancient times...
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calumnus
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In reply to Fyght4Cal • 9:47p, 4/1/21
Fyght4Cal said:
concordtom said:
#1 consideration for a coach is that he's got to be able to attract recruits.
Who is Mark Fox?
This is why I was pleading with The Almighty to give us Jason Kidd. Unfortunately, He never answered my voicemails.


Kidd would have been more fun. He did say Cal was the only college job he was interested in.
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dimitrig
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In reply to Big C • 9:59p, 4/1/21
Big C said:
Fyght4Cal said:
concordtom said:
#1 consideration for a coach is that he's got to be able to attract recruits.
Who is Mark Fox?
This is why I was pleading with The Almighty to give us Jason Kidd. Unfortunately, He never answered my voicemails.

Who answers voicemails anymore? He didn't get to be the Almighty by staying stuck in ancient times...

You need to Tweet to him!

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calumnus
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In reply to concordtom • 11:16p, 4/1/21
concordtom said:
#1 consideration for a coach is that he's got to be able to attract recruits.
Who is Mark Fox?


Mark Fox played at Garden City Community College and then for Eastern New Mexico located in Portales, NM (pop 12,000) south of Clovis.

He was an assistant coach at Nevada under Trent Johnson and his big break was being promoted to HC when Johnson took the HC job at Stanford. He inherited 2 future NBA players Nick Fazekas and Kevinn Pinckney plus kept two more committed (Ramon Sessions and JaVale McGee and He then landed 2 more, both local Reno HS players, Armon Johnson and Parade All-American Luke Babbitt. So of his 5 years at Nevada, two years he had 3 future NBA players and 3 years he had 2. All were Trent Johnson recruits or local Reno players.

His great success was his first three years at Nevada when he had overwhelming talent: 25-7, 27-6, 29-5 winning the WAC all three years. He then won 2 NCAA games in three trips which would be the last he has won an NCAA Tournament game (14 years ago). His next two years he won 21 games and lost in the first round of the CBI both years.

He then went to Georgia for 9 years where he was not able to match his success at Nevada. Going to the NCAAs only twice, losing in the first game both times. He did win two games out of three trips to the NIT.

After 3 years of great success with a team he inherited and playing in the WAC he has spent the 14 years since mostly in power conferences earning well over $1 million per year the whole time with zero NCAA wins, zero AP rankings.... his trend line in wins over his career is decidedly downward sloping.
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BC Calfan
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8:30a, 4/2/21
That was a tough read first thing in the morning.

Unrelated, but one petty item, that has irked me with Fox. His decision to wear a suit on the sidelines when the rest of the basketball world decided it's fine to go athletic-casual. Not impressed Mark. Also not a good way to connect with the younger generation. Just a pointless, old-school move that's very telling of his personality.
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tsubamoto2001
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In reply to calumnus • 8:40a, 4/2/21
This begs the question, which I asked when his hiring was announced:

Why was he hired? What in his resume dictated that he get a 2nd chance at the high-major level?

You can make a case for Ben Howland and Tom Crean, both coaches that have Final 4 appearances and blips of success at programs with tradition to get another shot at the HM level, but Mark Fox? Laughable. He's not even as accomplished as Herb Sendek and Sendek won't get another HM job.

Unless things change drastically, Cal punted on its men's hoops program with this hire. Worse yet, we're stuck with this guy for a least 2 more years.

calumnus said:
concordtom said:
#1 consideration for a coach is that he's got to be able to attract recruits.
Who is Mark Fox?


Mark Fox played at Garden City Community College and then for Eastern New Mexico located in Portales, NM (pop 12,000) south of Clovis.

He was an assistant coach at Nevada under Trent Johnson and his big break was being promoted to HC when Johnson took the HC job at Stanford. He inherited 2 future NBA players Nick Fazekas and Kevinn Pinckney plus kept two more committed (Ramon Sessions and JaVale McGee and He then landed 2 more, both local Reno HS players, Armon Johnson and Parade All-American Luke Babbitt. So of his 5 years at Nevada, two years he had 3 future NBA players and 3 years he had 2. All were Trent Johnson recruits or local Reno players.

His great success was his first three years at Nevada when he had overwhelming talent: 25-7, 27-6, 29-5 winning the WAC all three years. He then won 2 NCAA games in three trips which would be the last he has won an NCAA Tournament game (14 years ago). His next two years he won 21 games and lost in the first round of the CBI both years.

He then went to Georgia for 9 years where he was not able to match his success at Nevada. Going to the NCAAs only twice, losing in the first game both times. He did win two games out of three trips to the NIT.

After 3 years of great success with a team he inherited and playing in the WAC he has spent the 14 years since mostly in power conferences earning well over $1 million per year the whole time with zero NCAA wins, zero AP rankings.... his trend line in wins over his career is decidedly downward sloping.
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BigDaddy
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In reply to calumnus • 8:56a, 4/2/21
calumnus said:
concordtom said:
#1 consideration for a coach is that he's got to be able to attract recruits.
Who is Mark Fox?
.After 3 years of great success with a team he inherited and playing in the WAC he has spent the 14 years since mostly in power conferences earning well over $1 million per year the whole time with zero NCAA wins, zero AP rankings.... his trend line in wins over his career is decidedly downward sloping.
This sums it up. Fox has no history of success. Based on his body of work, there is no reason to expect he will suddenly turn it around at Cal.


“My tastes are simple; I am easily satisfied with the best.” - Winston Churchill
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PtownBear1
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In reply to BC Calfan • 10:18a, 4/2/21
BC Calfan said:
That was a tough read first thing in the morning.

Unrelated, but one petty item, that has irked me with Fox. His decision to wear a suit on the sidelines when the rest of the basketball world decided it's fine to go athletic-casual. Not impressed Mark. Also not a good way to connect with the younger generation. Just a pointless, old-school move that's very telling of his personality.
That in and of itself I wouldn't see as an issue, but I agree it's another data point that collectively seems to indicate he's not very relatable to today's youth or up with the times.
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drizzlybear
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In reply to BC Calfan • 2:34p, 4/2/21
BC Calfan said:
That was a tough read first thing in the morning.

Unrelated, but one petty item, that has irked me with Fox. His decision to wear a suit on the sidelines when the rest of the basketball world decided it's fine to go athletic-casual. Not impressed Mark. Also not a good way to connect with the younger generation. Just a pointless, old-school move that's very telling of his personality.

I completely disagree. Wearing a polo and khakis is not going to define a coach's relationship with his players. What I see in it is a coach who is not using COVID as an excuse to lower or lighten the expectations of himself or their approach to preparations, conduct, etc. I'm sure the players are being held to the same standards and expectations as always, so why not the coach? I actually have seen it is a positive. There are other things I don't like about Fox, but maintaining his personal presentation standards through COVID casual is not one of them.
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oskidunker
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4:16p, 4/2/21
I would rather have been alive in the40's. People dressed for special,occasions and over looked much neater than today's sloppy t shirt attire..
Go Bears!
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socaliganbear
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4:51p, 4/2/21
Mark Fox broke the clock. It's time to move on.
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BigDaddy
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In reply to ClayK • 4:58p, 4/2/21
ClayK said:
As always, the question is this: If you fire the coach, can you hire someone better?

If not, it's pointless, confusing activity with achievement.

If you are sure you have a better candidate available, then the other questions come into play: Can you afford the process financially? How will it affect current players and recruits? What do the big donors think?

For me, step one is identifying the coach you want, and I certainly don't know enough to pick one out. And from the discussions I've seen on this board, I'm not sure anyone does.

Can Cal hire someone better than Mark Fox? Absolutely. As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, Fox has done nothing of note as a head coach, outside of a short run at Nevada with an inherited roster. He did ZERO at Georgia.

As an AD, coming up with candidates should be easy. A short list would include:

Pro Ranks

Jason Kidd: Best player in Cal history, HOF'er and former NBA head coach/assistant. He would energize the program, fan base and recruiting.

College Head Coaches

Brian Dutcher, San Diego State
Randy Bennett, St. Mary's
Joe Pasternack, UC Santa Barbara
Travis DeCuire, Montana
Shantay Legans, Eastern Washington (just took Portland job)
Dennis Gates, Cleveland State

College Assistants: :

Jason Hart, USC
Brian Michaelson, Gonzaga
Michael Lewis, UCLA
David Velasquez, San Diego State

That's 11 guys who would all be an upgrade over what Cal basketball has now.




“My tastes are simple; I am easily satisfied with the best.” - Winston Churchill
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CalLifer
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In reply to BigDaddy • 5:04p, 4/2/21
BigDaddy said:
ClayK said:
As always, the question is this: If you fire the coach, can you hire someone better?

If not, it's pointless, confusing activity with achievement.

If you are sure you have a better candidate available, then the other questions come into play: Can you afford the process financially? How will it affect current players and recruits? What do the big donors think?

For me, step one is identifying the coach you want, and I certainly don't know enough to pick one out. And from the discussions I've seen on this board, I'm not sure anyone does.

Can Cal hire someone better than Mark Fox? Absolutely. As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, Fox has done nothing of note as a head coach, outside of a short run at Nevada with an inherited roster. He accomplished nothing at Georgia.

As an AD, coming up with candidates should be easy. A short list would include:

Pro Ranks

Jason Kidd: Best player in Cal history, HOF'er and former NBA head coach/assistant. He would energize the program, fan base and recruiting.

College Head Coaches

Brian Dutcher, San Diego State
Randy Bennett, St. Mary's
Joe Pasternack, UC Santa Barbara
Travis DeCuire, Montana
Shantay Legans, Eastern Washington (just took Portland job)

College Assistants: :

Jason Hart, USC
Brian Michaelson, Gonzaga
Darren Savino, UCLA

That's 8 guys who would all be an upgrade over what Cal basketball has now.






I would add Dennis Gates to the list, and wouldn't cross Shantay off (I'm sure he would come to cal if we came calling with the right package).
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BigDaddy
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In reply to CalLifer • 5:09p, 4/2/21
CalLifer said:


I would add Dennis Gates to the list, and wouldn't cross Shantay off (I'm sure he would come to cal if we came calling with the right package).
Done and done.
“My tastes are simple; I am easily satisfied with the best.” - Winston Churchill
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stu
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In reply to drizzlybear • 5:16p, 4/2/21
drizzlybear said:
There are other things I don't like about Fox, but maintaining his personal presentation standards through COVID casual is not one of them.
Maybe that's not high on Matt Bradley's list.
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CalLifer
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In reply to BigDaddy • 5:20p, 4/2/21
I also remember that Shareef had some interest in the role when Fox was hired. I would also rather have him than Fox (we could probably also get his son to transfer if that was the case).
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Big C
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In reply to CalLifer • 5:29p, 4/2/21
CalLifer said:
I also remember that Shareef had some interest in the role when Fox was hired. I would also rather have him than Fox (we could probably also get his son to transfer if that was the case).

Wasn't he an NBA GM or league executive for awhile? He's never coached, has he?

Speaking of NBA GMs, maybe Sean Marks has finally created a roster in Brooklyn that he can't wait to get away from!


I'd kind of actually prefer someone who has coached. At least Jason Kidd has coached.
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CalLifer
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In reply to Big C • 5:32p, 4/2/21
Big C said:
CalLifer said:
I also remember that Shareef had some interest in the role when Fox was hired. I would also rather have him than Fox (we could probably also get his son to transfer if that was the case).

Wasn't he an NBA GM or league executive for awhile? He's never coached, has he?

Speaking of NBA GMs, maybe Sean Marks has finally created a roster in Brooklyn that he can't wait to get away from!


I'd kind of actually prefer someone who has coached. At least Jason Kidd has coached.


Yeah, he has been in team administration roles, not coaching. And of the choices, he'd be low on mylist. But if he understood his limitations, hired the right assistants, and knew when to take charge and when to let his assistants take the lead, we could do worse (and I think we may have with Fox).
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