socaltownie said:

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Well yogi still owes me 20 cause he took the over on Jones's second year

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BearSD said:

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LateHit said:

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Eventually he is not going to be able to imply that he is fixing something somebody else broke.

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This is absolutely something that somebody else broke. The question is whether Fox is going to be the one to fix it.

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drizzlybear said:

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stu said:

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drizzlybear said:

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So, yes, to the extent Fox's situation is even remotely comparable to the Holmoe situation, the evidence points to the better approach being to follow the exact same course as Cal did in the Holmoe situation.

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Why didn't we do that in the Jones situation?

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Jones was something of a promotional interim hire, made by an interim AD. And he didn't immediately improve things. On the contrary, he took things to new lows not seen before nor since.

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stu said:

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drizzlybear said:

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So, yes, to the extent Fox's situation is even remotely comparable to the Holmoe situation, the evidence points to the better approach being to follow the exact same course as Cal did in the Holmoe situation.

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Why didn't we do that in the Jones situation?

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drizzlybear said:

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OaktownBear said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Stanford Jonah said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Stanford Jonah said:

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parentswerebears said:

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I think maybe I'll revisit Cal basketball when the university actually starts caring about Cal basketball. Anybody with a real shot somewhere else should ditch the dumpster fire.

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Yep. Drizzlybear and SFCityBear will soon be the only ones posting back and forth to each other about how Fox deserves that fifth year.

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Aside from the fact that you apparently have no idea what my view of the situation is, I think I would enjoy very much SFCityBear's company anytime.

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I know your view of the situation very well. You're one of those guys who is always saying that a bad coach deserves more time to suck. Fanbase is full of those people.

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Wrong. And in any case it sounds like you'd also be wrong about SFC and me being the only ones. You can't keep your insults straight.

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I'm sorry but you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You can't spend 95% of your time here countering any criticism of the coach, never offer anything but the bare minimum of criticism and then say people don't know the view of the situation you keep secretly in your head. If you have any view of the situation that deviates from publicly supporting the coach no matter what he does, you are free to state it. You can't be as outspoken as you are in support and then claim people don't know your true feelings.

I think it is safe to say that at least at this point you have made it clear that this coach that finished last place deserves another season. I have tried to phrase that in a nicer way than "a bad coach deserves more time to suck", but they are really saying the same thing.

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My position is and has always been that the jury is still out on Fox. I point out that the first season seemed somewhat encouraging (and there are others of note who feel the same way). And I believe that COVID impacts are worth putting something of a qualifier for the appraisal of this season (as I do for our football season). I have criticisms of Fox and I have expressed them on these boards. (Until recently I pretty much only posted on the premium boards.) And I believe that this year's team started pretty consistently playing competent team basketball about midway through the season, against competition we now see in a different, more competitive light. And I don't believe it's good for a program, especially a poorly resourced program like ours to be repeatedly firing coaches on a short string.

Unfortunately, there are vocal and aggressive posters who say they've known before Fox was even hired that he couldn't help Cal. Those posters have left no room for anyone to take what I view as the moderate positions I've stated above. And I do respond to what I perceive to be unfair shots. Unfortunately there are many of those.

Feel free to show me any post of mine that is not within that description.

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BigDaddy said:

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For the people who say "Fox needs more time" etc., curious as to what you see TODAY that tells you he's the coach to turn things around. He has a two decade body of work... a short 3 year window at Nevada where his success came with an inherited roster. He did nothing at Georgia.

In 16 seasons at Nevada/Georgia/Cal, Mark Fox has 5 NCAA appearances. He has 2 NCAA wins in 16 years. His last tournament win was 2007.

So what Is it? Is Fox an outstanding game coach? An elite recruiter? Would love to hear what you're seeing or hearing that gives you any sort of optimism that he has Cal trending in the right direction.

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Quote:

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... Sorry for the length of the response. Appreciate if you've read it all.

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CalLifer said:

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BigDaddy said:

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For the people who say "Fox needs more time" etc., curious as to what you see TODAY that tells you he's the coach to turn things around. He has a two decade body of work... a short 3 year window at Nevada where his success came with an inherited roster. He did nothing at Georgia.

In 16 seasons at Nevada/Georgia/Cal, Mark Fox has 5 NCAA appearances. He has 2 NCAA wins in 16 years. His last tournament win was 2007.

So what Is it? Is Fox an outstanding game coach? An elite recruiter? Would love to hear what you're seeing or hearing that gives you any sort of optimism that he has Cal trending in the right direction.

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I would also add one more question to those who advocate for Fox needing more time: what is your eventual expectation/goal for the level that Cal will hit with Fox? Is the level that you think Fox will take us to making the tournament 1 out of every 2 years? 4? As BigDaddy states above, Fox's level across Nevada and Georgia (let's not include Cal for now) is 5 appearances across 14 seasons. If you ignore the first three seasons at Nevada (3 of those 5 tournament appearances), his last 11 seasons before coming to Cal had 2 NCAA tournament appearances. Is either of those (1 tourney appearance every 3 or 5 seasons) what you envision when you think Fox needs more time? And if your expectations for Fox/Cal are higher than that, what is it in his 14 year D-1 coaching career prior to Cal that leads you to believe that he can achieve that?

Maybe the disconnect is that the expectations for the "Fox needs/deserves more time" crowd is that Cal should be be targeting 1 tournament appearance every 3-5 years and not more.

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OaktownBear said:

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BigDaddy said:

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For the people who say "Fox needs more time" etc., curious as to what you see TODAY that tells you he's the coach to turn things around. He has a two decade body of work... a short 3 year window at Nevada where his success came with an inherited roster. He did nothing at Georgia.

In 16 seasons at Nevada/Georgia/Cal, Mark Fox has 5 NCAA appearances. He has 2 NCAA wins in 16 years. His last tournament win was 2007.

So what Is it? Is Fox an outstanding game coach? An elite recruiter? Would love to hear what you're seeing or hearing that gives you any sort of optimism that he has Cal trending in the right direction.

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They absolutely refuse to answer direct questions like this. I have asked multiple time for people to state what an acceptable outcome is to them and what they think the chances are he gets there. They won't respond because they know these are their options

1. Say they are okay with consistent 6-7 win seasons in conference because that is the only result remotely likely. This option makes them look like total losers who accept worse than mediocrity and they know it.

2. Say they want consistent winning seasons in conference and that he has some reasonable percentage chance like 50% to accomplish that. They won't say that because they can't say it without blushing because they know how far out of reality it would make them look

Or

3. State that acceptable is winning seasons in conference and that he has less than 5% chance of making that happen, but golly gee, he deserves a chance because, well, we are Cal and that is what we do! Just wait until next year when a majority argue for an extension because everyone knows when you are down to 2 years left on the contract you have to extend or the 8-10 ranked recruiting classes might slip to 10-12..

The answer is number 3, but that answer lays bare a much more fundamental issue with our program, so they don't want to say it. They will just say he is not going to be fired so we should just support him and not speak up for change. Some of these people were saying the same thing a week before Dykes got fired. And, while I like Fox more personally and how he carries himself, Dykes was a substantially better coach and anyone who knows my posting history on Dykes knows I'm saying a lot with that comment

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stu said:

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Quote:

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... Sorry for the length of the response. Appreciate if you've read it all.

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Thanks to you and to Oaktown. I'll offer a short reply.

1) I didn't like the hire or the hiring process or the publicized team meeting or losing 3 players right away. Those definitely lowered my enthusiasm and expectations.

2) I was pleasantly surprised by the first season. The record was better than I expected and the team (particularly Austin) got better through the season.

3) It's too early for me to rate the recruiting. The initial recruits were hardly inspiring but at least plugged some holes and looked like they might have some potential to develop. To me the transfers haven't looked like power conference players. Celestine looks promising but I haven't seen enough of Bowser to comment. The 2021 signees look OK on paper but I've never seen them play. I still have questions about PG and C.

4) I don't buy the COVID-19 excuse. We had only 2 freshies and they played very few minutes until Celestine came on in February. AFAIK we didn't miss any games. Compare that to our women, who had 6 freshies, no scholarship juniors or seniors, and missed 9 games.

5) I see the loss of Bradley as a huge setback which fits a pattern. After a coaching change I expect a few losses but not 75%. Only 2 of Jones' 8 recruits remain, Anticevich and Kelly. Gone are McNeill, Sueing, Harris-Dyson, Vanover, Gordon, and Bradley. I have to put that on the coaches since I can't imagine having that many bad apples.

6) I don't have any predictions for next season. Based on his first season I'd grudgingly give Fox one more to show he can get to .500 but I'd be prepared to fire him sooner if any more players depart or decommit or if we don't have a decent list of 2022 commits.

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drizzlybear said:

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CalLifer said:

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BigDaddy said:

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For the people who say "Fox needs more time" etc., curious as to what you see TODAY that tells you he's the coach to turn things around. He has a two decade body of work... a short 3 year window at Nevada where his success came with an inherited roster. He did nothing at Georgia.

In 16 seasons at Nevada/Georgia/Cal, Mark Fox has 5 NCAA appearances. He has 2 NCAA wins in 16 years. His last tournament win was 2007.

So what Is it? Is Fox an outstanding game coach? An elite recruiter? Would love to hear what you're seeing or hearing that gives you any sort of optimism that he has Cal trending in the right direction.

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I would also add one more question to those who advocate for Fox needing more time: what is your eventual expectation/goal for the level that Cal will hit with Fox? Is the level that you think Fox will take us to making the tournament 1 out of every 2 years? 4? As BigDaddy states above, Fox's level across Nevada and Georgia (let's not include Cal for now) is 5 appearances across 14 seasons. If you ignore the first three seasons at Nevada (3 of those 5 tournament appearances), his last 11 seasons before coming to Cal had 2 NCAA tournament appearances. Is either of those (1 tourney appearance every 3 or 5 seasons) what you envision when you think Fox needs more time? And if your expectations for Fox/Cal are higher than that, what is it in his 14 year D-1 coaching career prior to Cal that leads you to believe that he can achieve that?

Maybe the disconnect is that the expectations for the "Fox needs/deserves more time" crowd is that Cal should be be targeting 1 tournament appearance every 3-5 years and not more.

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I honestly think Cal should be going to the tournament more often than not. And almost always at least the nit. I see it almost like qualifying for a bowl game in that a .500 conference record should pretty much get you in. That's my expectation. But I'm also of the "Rome wasn't built in a day" theory, wrt where we are right now.

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Big Dog said:

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concordtom said:

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BigDaddy said:

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ClayK said:

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As always, the question is this: If you fire the coach, can you hire someone better?

If not, it's pointless, confusing activity with achievement.

If you are sure you have a better candidate available, then the other questions come into play: Can you afford the process financially? How will it affect current players and recruits? What do the big donors think?

For me, step one is identifying the coach you want, and I certainly don't know enough to pick one out. And from the discussions I've seen on this board, I'm not sure anyone does.

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Can Cal hire someone better than Mark Fox? Absolutely. As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, Fox has done nothing of note as a head coach, outside of a short run at Nevada with an inherited roster. Hew did nothing in the SEC while at Georgia.

As an AD, coming up with candidates should be easy. A short list would include:

Pro Ranks

Jason Kidd: Best player in Cal history, HOF'er and former NBA head coach/assistant. He would energize the program, fan base and recruiting.

College Head Coaches

Brian Dutcher, San Diego State
Randy Bennett, St. Mary's
Joe Pasternack, UC Santa Barbara
Travis DeCuire, Montana
Shantay Legans, Eastern Washington (just took Portland job)
Dennis Gates, Cleveland State

College Assistants: :

Jason Hart, USC
Brian Michaelson, Gonzaga
Michael Lewis, UCLA
David Velasquez, San Diego State

That's 11 guys who would all be an upgrade over what Cal basketball has now.

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Pasternack is DQ'd for kicking Jorge Gutierez

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No love for Theo?

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Fyght4Cal said:

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drizzlybear said:

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oskidunker said:

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Fox is not going to be fired any time soon. Thread not interesting or helpful.

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Thank you. That's kinda my view as well. However, if this leads to others leaving and there's a roster meltdown, then I could see a possible change. But I agree that we're not there yet.

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Let's hope Bradley's announcement isn't the start of a roster meltdown. Because would be our second roster meltdown under Fox. :facepalm emoji

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oskidunker said:

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You cant do any worse than last place. I predict we will do better without Bradley.

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OaktownBear said:

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oskidunker said:

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You cant do any worse than last place. I predict we will do better without Bradley.

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Please explain how that works. Who are the eight guys we are better off putting on the floor? Clearly he is by far the most skilled and productive player. He doesn't deserve the insinuation from you. The only way we could be better off is if he is such an attitude problem to make his obviously important contribution a net negative.

There is an individual on the team who needs an attitude adjustment and he is getting paid millions of dollars not to have an attitude problem

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calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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CalLifer said:

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BigDaddy said:

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For the people who say "Fox needs more time" etc., curious as to what you see TODAY that tells you he's the coach to turn things around. He has a two decade body of work... a short 3 year window at Nevada where his success came with an inherited roster. He did nothing at Georgia.

In 16 seasons at Nevada/Georgia/Cal, Mark Fox has 5 NCAA appearances. He has 2 NCAA wins in 16 years. His last tournament win was 2007.

So what Is it? Is Fox an outstanding game coach? An elite recruiter? Would love to hear what you're seeing or hearing that gives you any sort of optimism that he has Cal trending in the right direction.

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I would also add one more question to those who advocate for Fox needing more time: what is your eventual expectation/goal for the level that Cal will hit with Fox? Is the level that you think Fox will take us to making the tournament 1 out of every 2 years? 4? As BigDaddy states above, Fox's level across Nevada and Georgia (let's not include Cal for now) is 5 appearances across 14 seasons. If you ignore the first three seasons at Nevada (3 of those 5 tournament appearances), his last 11 seasons before coming to Cal had 2 NCAA tournament appearances. Is either of those (1 tourney appearance every 3 or 5 seasons) what you envision when you think Fox needs more time? And if your expectations for Fox/Cal are higher than that, what is it in his 14 year D-1 coaching career prior to Cal that leads you to believe that he can achieve that?

Maybe the disconnect is that the expectations for the "Fox needs/deserves more time" crowd is that Cal should be be targeting 1 tournament appearance every 3-5 years and not more.

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I honestly think Cal should be going to the tournament more often than not. And almost always at least the nit. I see it almost like qualifying for a bowl game in that a .500 conference record should pretty much get you in. That's my expectation. But I'm also of the "Rome wasn't built in a day" theory, wrt where we are right now.

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I think you have to do more than just allow for "more time" close your eyes and hope. You need to look at what is happening and determine if it is positive and will bring good results with more time or if it is negative and will bring even worse results with more time.

If a car is starting to roll down hill toward a cliff just giving it more time is not the answer. If there is a grease fire In your kitchen ignoring it and hoping things get better with more time is not the answer.

The longer we wait, the worse the situation the next coach will inherit. The more we will erode fan interest in Cal basketball. Fortunately this is basketball, and unlike an entire city it can be turned around in one (signing) day with the right coach. However waiting is only going to make it harder. I dont see it happening this year though it should.

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concordtom said:

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OaktownBear said:

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oskidunker said:

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You cant do any worse than last place. I predict we will do better without Bradley.

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Please explain how that works. Who are the eight guys we are better off putting on the floor? Clearly he is by far the most skilled and productive player. He doesn't deserve the insinuation from you. The only way we could be better off is if he is such an attitude problem to make his obviously important contribution a net negative.

There is an individual on the team who needs an attitude adjustment and he is getting paid millions of dollars not to have an attitude problem

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I interpreted him as being sarcastic, fwiw.

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drizzlybear said:

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calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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CalLifer said:

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BigDaddy said:

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For the people who say "Fox needs more time" etc., curious as to what you see TODAY that tells you he's the coach to turn things around. He has a two decade body of work... a short 3 year window at Nevada where his success came with an inherited roster. He did nothing at Georgia.

In 16 seasons at Nevada/Georgia/Cal, Mark Fox has 5 NCAA appearances. He has 2 NCAA wins in 16 years. His last tournament win was 2007.

So what Is it? Is Fox an outstanding game coach? An elite recruiter? Would love to hear what you're seeing or hearing that gives you any sort of optimism that he has Cal trending in the right direction.

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I would also add one more question to those who advocate for Fox needing more time: what is your eventual expectation/goal for the level that Cal will hit with Fox? Is the level that you think Fox will take us to making the tournament 1 out of every 2 years? 4? As BigDaddy states above, Fox's level across Nevada and Georgia (let's not include Cal for now) is 5 appearances across 14 seasons. If you ignore the first three seasons at Nevada (3 of those 5 tournament appearances), his last 11 seasons before coming to Cal had 2 NCAA tournament appearances. Is either of those (1 tourney appearance every 3 or 5 seasons) what you envision when you think Fox needs more time? And if your expectations for Fox/Cal are higher than that, what is it in his 14 year D-1 coaching career prior to Cal that leads you to believe that he can achieve that?

Maybe the disconnect is that the expectations for the "Fox needs/deserves more time" crowd is that Cal should be be targeting 1 tournament appearance every 3-5 years and not more.

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I honestly think Cal should be going to the tournament more often than not. And almost always at least the nit. I see it almost like qualifying for a bowl game in that a .500 conference record should pretty much get you in. That's my expectation. But I'm also of the "Rome wasn't built in a day" theory, wrt where we are right now.

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I think you have to do more than just allow for "more time" close your eyes and hope. You need to look at what is happening and determine if it is positive and will bring good results with more time or if it is negative and will bring even worse results with more time.

If a car is starting to roll down hill toward a cliff just giving it more time is not the answer. If there is a grease fire In your kitchen ignoring it and hoping things get better with more time is not the answer.

The longer we wait, the worse the situation the next coach will inherit. The more we will erode fan interest in Cal basketball. Fortunately this is basketball, and unlike an entire city it can be turned around in one (signing) day with the right coach. However waiting is only going to make it harder. I dont see it happening this year though it should.

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Of course you don't close your eyes and hope. This is what i mean about absurd attacks on anyone who feels the jury is still out. I'm sorry you can't fathom anyone who hasn't yet reached the conclusion that Fox should be fired after in his second season after one year of significant improvement and one year, a COVID year no less, of regression.

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socaltownie said:

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Get Turner at uci on the list. He understand uc. And yes. I know. He made an I'll advised slur during the dance. **** it. I want to win.

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annarborbear said:

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I think unless people have the money to contribute to a buy-out, this discussion is pretty fruitless. Come back in twelve months and you can argue for a firing in more realistic terms.

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