BerkeleyBAT said:

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You mean like we've done for every coach but Monty?

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CalLifer said:

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philbert said:

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It's so sad that Cal hoops has deteriorated this far for us to be debating how bad of a season it will take to get a new coach.

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Or that an objectively bad season (7-11, ninth place) might be enough to keep our current coach.

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Big C said:

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I don't disagree that this is where we SHOULD be eight months from now, but since there seems like such a miniscule chance that we can improve that much, why even continue like we are?

If the answer is that we couldn't afford to fire another coach after only two seasons, hey, I get that, financially, but it makes it sound like we're spinning in neutral, writing off a whole season.

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WalterSobchak said:

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Agree 100%. It's pretty obvious an internal decision was made to destroy the basketball program. Or at least to deprioritize it to the point that destruction was the only possible result given the competitive environment. In Fox I think they found exactly who they were looking for: an established and respected underachiever who's happy to take the paycheck and run a scandal-free program with no real hope of ever being competitive. Thus I assume he is eminently comfortable because he's meeting all of the expectations they have for him. It is what it is.

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WalterSobchak said:

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Agree 100%. It's pretty obvious an internal decision was made to destroy the basketball program. Or at least to deprioritize it to the point that destruction was the only possible result given the competitive environment. In Fox I think they found exactly who they were looking for: an established and respected underachiever who's happy to take the paycheck and run a scandal-free program with no real hope of ever being competitive. Thus I assume he is eminently comfortable because he's meeting all of the expectations they have for him. It is what it is.

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sluggo said:

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4thGenCal said:

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CalLifer said:

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calumnus said:

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CalLifer said:

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Big C said:

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BearGreg said:

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calumnus said:

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socaltownie said:

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Almost no communication with fans (shouldn't they be pushing hard to get butts in seats). No social media presence to speak of (His last tweet is a meaningless picture of a sign at Oakland International). July 4th Instagram. Radio silence. Almost no excitement.

It is going to be an AWFUL season (I am again offering a bet that we have 9 or fewer wins). At that point you have to believe that they will make a chance.

Does Fox know this and is he simply playing out the string?

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Well he does have a guaranteed seven figure a year contract. Based on the way "insiders" support him here I wouldn't be shocked if he got an extension.

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Not sure who qualifies as an Insider here at BI, but our view is that this is a make or break season for Coach Fox

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Yes, I haven't detected too much Fox support over the last six months or so... from anybody.

As far as "make or break", there seems to be a gray area in the middle which would leave things in limbo. If we finish WAY in undisputed last place, with a record similar to last season's, that would be "break", barring some sort of amazing recruiting coup (and even then).

Obviously, if we were to pull off a winning conference record, that would be an incredible coaching job. "Make".

But what if something happens that is between those two? Say we finish 7-11 in conference, in 9th place. That would exceed everybody's expectations and demonstrate clear improvement from last season, but would it be enough to buy him a Year Four? My answer is "maybe", depending on how the games passed the eye test and what the recruiting class looked like. (It would be easy to say I'm setting the bar too low here and I might agree. I'm used to a low bar right now for Cal Basketball.)


The "radio silence" is ever so perplexing.

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I think the issue here is making the comparison with *last season* rather than looking at where we should be after 3 years of a new coach's tenure. If, at the time of Fox's hire, someone could have told you that in his 3rd year we would be 7-11 in conference and in 9th place, who would have been happy with that? I think we all would have agreed that was unacceptable. To me, that's the lens with which to view this. The attrition from the program (Seing, MacNeil, Vanover, and now Bradley), the inability to recruit both from the high school levels as well as from the transfer portals, the complete indifference to engaging the fan base in any way, all have to be laid at his feet. The fact that he may have the occasional win (or few wins) where the team comes together or we finish a slot or two above where our natural talent would indicate should not hide the fact that this roster is 100% his and that 7-11 should be considered a poor result for a coach in his 3rd year.

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Not entirely his roster, two players, Kelly and Anticevich, were brought in by Jones. The fact that they were secondary players but are probably our two best returning scorers and will be gone next year is concerning and likely means we will be very young next year. We have already been one of the lowest scoring teams in the country (#305) and will likely finish even lower this year and next.

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Apologies, I used a little bit of artistic license when I said the entire roster was Fox's. If anything, it's completely damning that the two best returning players on the team in Fox's 3rd year were really 2nd tier players on the roster at the time that Jones was fired... it's actually doubly damning in that all of the better players left and Fox has been unable to recruit better players. I apologize for the lack of exactness in my initial post, but if anything, it makes Fox look even worse.

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Have to agree - recruiting has been substandard (even with difficult admission standards) and this season is critical to Fox and staff (wish he had replaced one key assistant who is only partially respected by the players). I do support the HC getting 3 seasons to prove his results and allow sufficient rebuild time. While I am incredibly loyal for Cal and the key sports of Football and Basketball, I would not be in favor of keeping our HC if we finished 9/10th or worse and an early exit in league tourney. His contract remaining and the AD personal hiring would give him the 4th year in that scenario. Team is working hard (as they should) and will be better, but I would be very surprised if that equates to a 7th place or better standing in league.

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Fox is the worst recruiter at Cal maybe ever. I only go back to Campanelli, but every other coach has been far better. Even Monty who hated recruiting. Cal is coming off a last place season, they lost their best player and none of the freshmen will contribute because they are not good enough. And it it seems like they are getting no traction for next year. I would understand at WSU or OSU but not at Cal. What is going on?

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calumnus said:

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mbBear said:

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calumnus said:

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socaltownie said:

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Almost no communication with fans (shouldn't they be pushing hard to get butts in seats). No social media presence to speak of (His last tweet is a meaningless picture of a sign at Oakland International). July 4th Instagram. Radio silence. Almost no excitement.

It is going to be an AWFUL season (I am again offering a bet that we have 9 or fewer wins). At that point you have to believe that they will make a chance.

Does Fox know this and is he simply playing out the string?

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Well he does have a guaranteed seven figure a year contract. Based on the way "insiders" support him here I wouldn't be shocked if he got an extension.

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"Insiders" here, and I assume you are talking about staff folks, have an influence on contract extensions? I didn't realize Knowlton had created that group of advisors....

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No, I was saying Knowlton won't make a move unless pushed to do so by insiders/donors. The vibe I was getting from insiders was most would view a 9th place finish (say) as "progress" and not push Knowlton to do something he doesn't want to d

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Big C said:

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BeachedBear said:

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Sorry folks, but even finishing in 7th place or around .500 is not enough to retain Fox. IMHO the program needs to show that it's firing on ALL cylinders by the end of the season. That includes:

• Playing well including results in the W/L column
• Dramatic Individual player improvement from three of four of (Thieman, Brown, Kuany and Thore ) who are all his guys in their THIRD year in the program.
• Shaking ALL of the rust off a bizarre Covid season
• Recruiting, recruiting, recruiting
• Engagement by Anyone in the program with the fans and an improved HAAS experience

Some may say that this is not all under his control, but HE is the head coach and making $Million+. In three years under FOX, we have seen some glimpses of competence and fodder for HOPE, but not much in results. The P12 seems to be improving and our coach needs to GAIN ground, not show incremental improvement.

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I don't disagree that this is where we SHOULD be eight months from now, but since there seems like such a miniscule chance that we can improve that much, why even continue like we are?

If the answer is that we couldn't afford to fire another coach after only two seasons, hey, I get that, financially, but it makes it sound like we're spinning in neutral, writing off a whole season.

Now, I realize that I'm probably not setting the bar high enough and that what I wrote above... um... barely makes sense, but my point is this: If the agreed-upon benchmarks for the upcoming season are basically UNREACHABLE by the current staff, why didn't we replace them four months ago?

This is why I'm suggesting that IF we go 7-11 or 8-10 this coming season (within reason and well out of the conference cellar) AND the team meets the "eye test" of looking reasonably well-coached with notable individual player progress AND the recruiting seems to be progressing, maybe Fox survives to Year Four.

Nice hypothetical to have, considering it's unlikely we will even be able to do that.

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BeachedBear said:

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I think all options fall in to three groups:

1. Replace FOX and staff and attempt a change
2. Do nothing, keep FOX and hope.
3. Stop MBB altogether. I'm not sure if you are considering this, but it probably has larger ramifications to membership in P12 beyond just deciding not to play.

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stu said:

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BeachedBear said:

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I think all options fall in to three groups:

1. Replace FOX and staff and attempt a change
2. Do nothing, keep FOX and hope.
3. Stop MBB altogether. I'm not sure if you are considering this, but it probably has larger ramifications to membership in P12 beyond just deciding not to play.

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I would insert:

2.5. Keep the program, keep it as cheap as possible, and don't care about the result.

If the department had chosen option 2.5 two years ago they would have saved a lot of money by keeping Jones. If they choose option 2.5 now they'll keep Fox for the full term of his contract but not extend because he's too expensive. That's barely distinguishable from option 2 since if Fox's contract is not extended the hope will be even more of a fantasy.

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Bobodeluxe said:

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NIL put a hold on major moves. Why sign a contract when DI basketball might not exist in two years?

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Jeff82 said:

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Realistically, there's nothing the fan base can do about this at this point, unless you're willing to dump all other contributions/season tickets for Cal because of basketball. Since most of the revenue is from TV, and it's not performance related, we have no influence, IMHO. It's ennui to the max.

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Oakbear said:

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many support mediocrity .. I had my questions about the hiring process and am now a strong believer that a change needs to be made, sooner rather than later

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BeachedBear said:

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stu said:

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BeachedBear said:

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I think all options fall in to three groups:

1. Replace FOX and staff and attempt a change
2. Do nothing, keep FOX and hope.
3. Stop MBB altogether. I'm not sure if you are considering this, but it probably has larger ramifications to membership in P12 beyond just deciding not to play.

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I would insert:

2.5. Keep the program, keep it as cheap as possible, and don't care about the result.

If the department had chosen option 2.5 two years ago they would have saved a lot of money by keeping Jones. If they choose option 2.5 now they'll keep Fox for the full term of his contract but not extend because he's too expensive. That's barely distinguishable from option 2 since if Fox's contract is not extended the hope will be even more of a fantasy.

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Yeah. but your 2.5 falls under 1 in my decision tree - just replacing FOX focused on economics vs performance. Balancing one over the other is a legitimate decision, but not doing either and leaving it that way would fall under 2.

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BearGreg said:

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calumnus said:

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socaltownie said:

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Almost no communication with fans (shouldn't they be pushing hard to get butts in seats). No social media presence to speak of (His last tweet is a meaningless picture of a sign at Oakland International). July 4th Instagram. Radio silence. Almost no excitement.

It is going to be an AWFUL season (I am again offering a bet that we have 9 or fewer wins). At that point you have to believe that they will make a chance.

Does Fox know this and is he simply playing out the string?

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Well he does have a guaranteed seven figure a year contract. Based on the way "insiders" support him here I wouldn't be shocked if he got an extension.

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Not sure who qualifies as an Insider here at BI, but our view is that this is a make or break season for Coach Fox

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Big C said:

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CalLifer said:

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Big C said:

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BeachedBear said:

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Sorry folks, but even finishing in 7th place or around .500 is not enough to retain Fox. IMHO the program needs to show that it's firing on ALL cylinders by the end of the season. That includes:

• Playing well including results in the W/L column
• Dramatic Individual player improvement from three of four of (Thieman, Brown, Kuany and Thore ) who are all his guys in their THIRD year in the program.
• Shaking ALL of the rust off a bizarre Covid season
• Recruiting, recruiting, recruiting
• Engagement by Anyone in the program with the fans and an improved HAAS experience

Some may say that this is not all under his control, but HE is the head coach and making $Million+. In three years under FOX, we have seen some glimpses of competence and fodder for HOPE, but not much in results. The P12 seems to be improving and our coach needs to GAIN ground, not show incremental improvement.

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I don't disagree that this is where we SHOULD be eight months from now, but since there seems like such a miniscule chance that we can improve that much, why even continue like we are?

If the answer is that we couldn't afford to fire another coach after only two seasons, hey, I get that, financially, but it makes it sound like we're spinning in neutral, writing off a whole season.

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I think this is the key point that those of us who thought we should move on from Fox after the most recent season were trying to make. Any realistic view of the coming season (especially once Bradley transferred) would have to acknowledge that we are unlikely to reach the levels listed above, and the lack of recruiting success also means that Year 4 is likely to not meet the bar we should be meeting in Yr 4 of a new coach. So basically Cal is giving Fox a third year (or more?) to simply say we won't fire a coach after 2 years, when we for all intents and purposes know that Fox will not reach the levels he should have been held too after his 3rd year. Or maybe the admin is all-in on Football and just doesn't care about basketball. If that's the case, we should have just kept Jones (as OaktownBear has said in the past) and saved the money. Jones is def a better recruiter than Fox, so at least we could have fantasized about a higher level of recruit.

Edited:
I now see that Big C edited his post and asked the question I also just asked:

Quote:

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Now, I realize that I'm probably not setting the bar high enough and that what I wrote above... um... barely makes sense, but my point is this: If the agreed-upon benchmarks for the upcoming season are basically UNREACHABLE by the current staff, why didn't we replace them four months ago?

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Maybe it is because Knowlton doesn't want to have the stink of replacing two successive coaches after two years (though we know that doing the same thing worked wonders on the Farm when they hired Harbaugh). Maybe he doesn't care. Maybe all of his focus is on football and he can't be bothered about basketball. Maybe he likes Fox too much and can't pull the trigger despite the clear need to replace him.

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Thanks, you seem to have completely understood my point... and I'm not even sure that I did. Thing is, I am a season ticket holder and will always be one and I'm desperately searching for some hope, some meaning, for the next eight months.

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HearstMining said:

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Big C said:

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CalLifer said:

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Big C said:

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BeachedBear said:

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Sorry folks, but even finishing in 7th place or around .500 is not enough to retain Fox. IMHO the program needs to show that it's firing on ALL cylinders by the end of the season. That includes:

• Playing well including results in the W/L column
• Dramatic Individual player improvement from three of four of (Thieman, Brown, Kuany and Thore ) who are all his guys in their THIRD year in the program.
• Shaking ALL of the rust off a bizarre Covid season
• Recruiting, recruiting, recruiting
• Engagement by Anyone in the program with the fans and an improved HAAS experience

Some may say that this is not all under his control, but HE is the head coach and making $Million+. In three years under FOX, we have seen some glimpses of competence and fodder for HOPE, but not much in results. The P12 seems to be improving and our coach needs to GAIN ground, not show incremental improvement.

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I don't disagree that this is where we SHOULD be eight months from now, but since there seems like such a miniscule chance that we can improve that much, why even continue like we are?

If the answer is that we couldn't afford to fire another coach after only two seasons, hey, I get that, financially, but it makes it sound like we're spinning in neutral, writing off a whole season.

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I think this is the key point that those of us who thought we should move on from Fox after the most recent season were trying to make. Any realistic view of the coming season (especially once Bradley transferred) would have to acknowledge that we are unlikely to reach the levels listed above, and the lack of recruiting success also means that Year 4 is likely to not meet the bar we should be meeting in Yr 4 of a new coach. So basically Cal is giving Fox a third year (or more?) to simply say we won't fire a coach after 2 years, when we for all intents and purposes know that Fox will not reach the levels he should have been held too after his 3rd year. Or maybe the admin is all-in on Football and just doesn't care about basketball. If that's the case, we should have just kept Jones (as OaktownBear has said in the past) and saved the money. Jones is def a better recruiter than Fox, so at least we could have fantasized about a higher level of recruit.

Edited:
I now see that Big C edited his post and asked the question I also just asked:

Quote:

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Now, I realize that I'm probably not setting the bar high enough and that what I wrote above... um... barely makes sense, but my point is this: If the agreed-upon benchmarks for the upcoming season are basically UNREACHABLE by the current staff, why didn't we replace them four months ago?

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Maybe it is because Knowlton doesn't want to have the stink of replacing two successive coaches after two years (though we know that doing the same thing worked wonders on the Farm when they hired Harbaugh). Maybe he doesn't care. Maybe all of his focus is on football and he can't be bothered about basketball. Maybe he likes Fox too much and can't pull the trigger despite the clear need to replace him.

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Thanks, you seem to have completely understood my point... and I'm not even sure that I did. Thing is, I am a season ticket holder and will always be one and I'm desperately searching for some hope, some meaning, for the next eight months.

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If you find that hope and meaning, please share with the rest of us! In addition, I'll say that while Wyking may be a better recruiter than Fox, his job would have gotten progressively harder as losing seasons continued. And when it came time to jettison Wyking a year later, would Knowlton have used the same search firm with a similar result? Who can say . . .

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HearstMining said:

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Big C said:

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CalLifer said:

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Big C said:

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BeachedBear said:

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Sorry folks, but even finishing in 7th place or around .500 is not enough to retain Fox. IMHO the program needs to show that it's firing on ALL cylinders by the end of the season. That includes:

• Playing well including results in the W/L column
• Dramatic Individual player improvement from three of four of (Thieman, Brown, Kuany and Thore ) who are all his guys in their THIRD year in the program.
• Shaking ALL of the rust off a bizarre Covid season
• Recruiting, recruiting, recruiting
• Engagement by Anyone in the program with the fans and an improved HAAS experience

Some may say that this is not all under his control, but HE is the head coach and making $Million+. In three years under FOX, we have seen some glimpses of competence and fodder for HOPE, but not much in results. The P12 seems to be improving and our coach needs to GAIN ground, not show incremental improvement.

---

I don't disagree that this is where we SHOULD be eight months from now, but since there seems like such a miniscule chance that we can improve that much, why even continue like we are?

If the answer is that we couldn't afford to fire another coach after only two seasons, hey, I get that, financially, but it makes it sound like we're spinning in neutral, writing off a whole season.

---

I think this is the key point that those of us who thought we should move on from Fox after the most recent season were trying to make. Any realistic view of the coming season (especially once Bradley transferred) would have to acknowledge that we are unlikely to reach the levels listed above, and the lack of recruiting success also means that Year 4 is likely to not meet the bar we should be meeting in Yr 4 of a new coach. So basically Cal is giving Fox a third year (or more?) to simply say we won't fire a coach after 2 years, when we for all intents and purposes know that Fox will not reach the levels he should have been held too after his 3rd year. Or maybe the admin is all-in on Football and just doesn't care about basketball. If that's the case, we should have just kept Jones (as OaktownBear has said in the past) and saved the money. Jones is def a better recruiter than Fox, so at least we could have fantasized about a higher level of recruit.

Edited:
I now see that Big C edited his post and asked the question I also just asked:

Quote:

---

Now, I realize that I'm probably not setting the bar high enough and that what I wrote above... um... barely makes sense, but my point is this: If the agreed-upon benchmarks for the upcoming season are basically UNREACHABLE by the current staff, why didn't we replace them four months ago?

---

Maybe it is because Knowlton doesn't want to have the stink of replacing two successive coaches after two years (though we know that doing the same thing worked wonders on the Farm when they hired Harbaugh). Maybe he doesn't care. Maybe all of his focus is on football and he can't be bothered about basketball. Maybe he likes Fox too much and can't pull the trigger despite the clear need to replace him.

---

Thanks, you seem to have completely understood my point... and I'm not even sure that I did. Thing is, I am a season ticket holder and will always be one and I'm desperately searching for some hope, some meaning, for the next eight months.

---

If you find that hope and meaning, please share with the rest of us! In addition, I'll say that while Wyking may be a better recruiter than Fox, his job would have gotten progressively harder as losing seasons continued. And when it came time to jettison Wyking a year later, would Knowlton have used the same search firm with a similar result? Who can say . . .

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philbert said:

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BerkeleyBAT said:

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You mean like we've done for every coach but Monty?

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Don't think Cuonzo ever got that level, although he was clearly headed that way if he had stayed.

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PtownBear1 said:

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But what evidence is there that Fox hasn't mailed it in? Other than assumptions about being concerned with the respect of his peers.

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sluggo said:

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Thanks for your insider perspective. I would never guess that Fox's failures are a result of his not working hard enough. Rather, he appears to be a dinosaur. The world moved and he did not move with it. I don't know what he thought he would do when he got that Cal job, a job that he should not have gotten given his mediocre to worse results. But he was available and the AD felt cultural affinity for him.

These are the ways I think he has gone wrong since coming to Cal. First, he needed to play at a faster pace. Maybe if he had success like Tony Bennett he could walk it up. But no top recruit prefers a slower pace. You can mention excuses like grades and no practice facility, but I think this is huge and it is his fault. I don't care if that is not what he likes. Second, he had to do everything he could to keep his top player. If that is beneath him then he is in the wrong business. Third, he needed to hire an offensive guru assistant as the offensive executions of his teams is awful. He showed in the first year that he could teach defense, but one has to know their strengths and weaknesses. Fourth, he needed a better recruiting strategy. Mine would be Bay Area, Southern California and foreign. Perhaps foreigners were not realistic during the pandemic, but one has to question the assistant coach who has those roots. It is amazing he did not hire a west coast recruiting specialist given he had no west coach ties. If he did not have money he needed to give someone a chance who was young or from the outside. Running around chasing randoms and semi-randoms is work, but it was not going to get him anywhere.

The team has no chance this coming year. It is too late for him now. I maintain that Cal is one of the best academic schools in the world, has the best weather in the world and an interesting campus and urban environment. Someone else could make it work. (This is all pre-NIL, post-NIL who knows.)

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4thGenCal said:

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PtownBear1 said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Final point that was brought up about "playing out the string" nonsensical - no coach wants the public humiliation, emotional pain inflicted on their family and lessening respect amongst their peers. The staff is working appropriately hard with the players and in recruiting efforts. If they failure this season, it won't be to lack of effort. No excuses at all, while the league is much better than many acknowledge, Staff is at the end of the rope for assessment on a 4th year or not. Really hoping Jalen and Jarred become 100% healthy, Grant and Andre improve their strength and cardio respectively and Lars, Marsalis and the transfer provide solid minutes. Joel Brown will make the next step and improve. Lot of if's, but I am pulling for them hard and hope other's on the string, are supportive and come out to the games.

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I'm curious what you've actually witnessed that leads you to the conclusion that Fox is hard at work and hasn't mailed it in? Don't mean this in a jerky way, but genuinely asking.

There are many factors that would lead one to reasonably conclude Fox has mailed it in, such as complete lack of communication, lack of media participation, lack of fan engagement efforts, lack of recruiting results, lack of on the court results, loss of your best player, and most notably, not bothering to any make any staffing changes after two years of poor recruiting and suffering through the worst conference season in Cal history.

But what evidence is there that Fox hasn't mailed it in? Other than assumptions about being concerned with the respect of his peers.

Obviously, Fox still has to hold practices and go through the motions of recruiting and the like to avoid termination for breach of contract or negligence, but what has he actually done beyond this bare minimum? I mean he didn't even bother to spend the time to change a single position on his staff after a historic failure of a season.

And then there's also the failure to capitalize on the rare opportunity provided by the transfer portal this year. All you have to do is look around the conference and see the coaches that overhauled their teams and know who is actually making efforts to try to succeed.

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My responses to the questions posed and to be clear I am objective and firmly believe Fox/staff must show noticeable improvement in the W/L column to be retained. "Mailed it in"? Absolutely no - his schedule is packed from early morning well into the evening all things related to our program. Recent recruiting trip he did (no access to private planes that nearly All Power 5 conf HC have, had him in Atlanta watching a prospect play, drive 80 miles afterwards to catch a another kid play in Birmingham at 2pm, then at the conclusion of that game, drive back to Atlanta to catch 2 more games, finishing up at 10pm. Totally agree that is the life of a HC, but the time being put in, is not being cut back. 2) Practices are spirited and very energetic, Coach Fox is fiery and demanding, he and his staff bring it and demand the same from the players. 3) Loss of Bradley - agreed that is squarely on Fox. MB did commit his word during mid season,to coming back this coming season, but then changed his mind by entering the portal (Dad is extremely close to him/much like a best friend analogy and advisor) Fox was upset and told MB that his spot is of course his, should he change his mind, but he did not "re recruit" him via face to face meetings etc in his home town. There were some outbursts during the season both toward a assistant coach and various teammates, but really more so due to the extreme competitive nature and the weight of the losing and perception that bball meant more to him than a few teammates. 3) Recruiting efforts are consistent and they have been down to the wire on some key prospects, but whether it was academics (can't underestimate how difficult the bar is for Cal to accept the student under/around 3.0 gpa etc plus the other schools playing up the rigors of the academic load at Cal etc), lack of a practice facility, wanting extra benefits etc, those players were not closed. Regardless, too many misses on the players recruited frankly. 4) fan involvement or lack there of? Actually fine - Fox meets with the Excellence group supporters 3-4 times/during the season for breakfast and also hosts another get together whether at his house or a event on a larger scale for more supporters. I can't comment on Social media impressions/consistency, don't know. Media appearances are met as required. 5) Staff changes? Coach Johnson left voluntarily at the end of the season and the players greatly respected him - at 66 years old and not seeing his wife too much, he has returned to Texas. I would agree with you on mixing it up, but HC's have their trust developed and are confident in the teaching of their system by those who are hired and 2 seasons (with the last one being highly constricted and the team was beset by some key injuries to Grant, Matt, Jarred, Jalen and initially to Andre restricting his on court practice time) was not a clear indicator that his support assistants were detrimental.
Cal has one just one conf title in the past 60 years (roulette wheel has better odds) and we pull for the program because we are alums, cheer on the underdog, our competitive pride and the fun it is going to a game on campus that has a raucous environment. There are a number of obstacles fans (me included) don't fully appreciate and one that is glossed over, is that the funds raised privately while decent, are woefully behind the constant leaders in our conf. That matters as private planes allow much quicker and more effective responses, to effectively recruit plus allows more territory to be covered in the same time periods. Assistant coaches can be paid more, Players can miss less class time etc. Lack of a private gym is a huge factor for the prospect who believes the NBA/professional contract is a strong possibility. All issues we know, but the reality is Cal is running a race with weights on their shoulders plain and simple. Yes valid excuses - but not to finish dead last. The team has to produce this season - will be very telling and hopefully they can be healthy and compete even up.

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Big C said:

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4thGenCal said:

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PtownBear1 said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Final point that was brought up about "playing out the string" nonsensical - no coach wants the public humiliation, emotional pain inflicted on their family and lessening respect amongst their peers. The staff is working appropriately hard with the players and in recruiting efforts. If they failure this season, it won't be to lack of effort. No excuses at all, while the league is much better than many acknowledge, Staff is at the end of the rope for assessment on a 4th year or not. Really hoping Jalen and Jarred become 100% healthy, Grant and Andre improve their strength and cardio respectively and Lars, Marsalis and the transfer provide solid minutes. Joel Brown will make the next step and improve. Lot of if's, but I am pulling for them hard and hope other's on the string, are supportive and come out to the games.

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I'm curious what you've actually witnessed that leads you to the conclusion that Fox is hard at work and hasn't mailed it in? Don't mean this in a jerky way, but genuinely asking.

There are many factors that would lead one to reasonably conclude Fox has mailed it in, such as complete lack of communication, lack of media participation, lack of fan engagement efforts, lack of recruiting results, lack of on the court results, loss of your best player, and most notably, not bothering to any make any staffing changes after two years of poor recruiting and suffering through the worst conference season in Cal history.

But what evidence is there that Fox hasn't mailed it in? Other than assumptions about being concerned with the respect of his peers.

Obviously, Fox still has to hold practices and go through the motions of recruiting and the like to avoid termination for breach of contract or negligence, but what has he actually done beyond this bare minimum? I mean he didn't even bother to spend the time to change a single position on his staff after a historic failure of a season.

And then there's also the failure to capitalize on the rare opportunity provided by the transfer portal this year. All you have to do is look around the conference and see the coaches that overhauled their teams and know who is actually making efforts to try to succeed.

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My responses to the questions posed and to be clear I am objective and firmly believe Fox/staff must show noticeable improvement in the W/L column to be retained. "Mailed it in"? Absolutely no - his schedule is packed from early morning well into the evening all things related to our program. Recent recruiting trip he did (no access to private planes that nearly All Power 5 conf HC have, had him in Atlanta watching a prospect play, drive 80 miles afterwards to catch a another kid play in Birmingham at 2pm, then at the conclusion of that game, drive back to Atlanta to catch 2 more games, finishing up at 10pm. Totally agree that is the life of a HC, but the time being put in, is not being cut back. 2) Practices are spirited and very energetic, Coach Fox is fiery and demanding, he and his staff bring it and demand the same from the players. 3) Loss of Bradley - agreed that is squarely on Fox. MB did commit his word during mid season,to coming back this coming season, but then changed his mind by entering the portal (Dad is extremely close to him/much like a best friend analogy and advisor) Fox was upset and told MB that his spot is of course his, should he change his mind, but he did not "re recruit" him via face to face meetings etc in his home town. There were some outbursts during the season both toward a assistant coach and various teammates, but really more so due to the extreme competitive nature and the weight of the losing and perception that bball meant more to him than a few teammates. 3) Recruiting efforts are consistent and they have been down to the wire on some key prospects, but whether it was academics (can't underestimate how difficult the bar is for Cal to accept the student under/around 3.0 gpa etc plus the other schools playing up the rigors of the academic load at Cal etc), lack of a practice facility, wanting extra benefits etc, those players were not closed. Regardless, too many misses on the players recruited frankly. 4) fan involvement or lack there of? Actually fine - Fox meets with the Excellence group supporters 3-4 times/during the season for breakfast and also hosts another get together whether at his house or a event on a larger scale for more supporters. I can't comment on Social media impressions/consistency, don't know. Media appearances are met as required. 5) Staff changes? Coach Johnson left voluntarily at the end of the season and the players greatly respected him - at 66 years old and not seeing his wife too much, he has returned to Texas. I would agree with you on mixing it up, but HC's have their trust developed and are confident in the teaching of their system by those who are hired and 2 seasons (with the last one being highly constricted and the team was beset by some key injuries to Grant, Matt, Jarred, Jalen and initially to Andre restricting his on court practice time) was not a clear indicator that his support assistants were detrimental.
Cal has one just one conf title in the past 60 years (roulette wheel has better odds) and we pull for the program because we are alums, cheer on the underdog, our competitive pride and the fun it is going to a game on campus that has a raucous environment. There are a number of obstacles fans (me included) don't fully appreciate and one that is glossed over, is that the funds raised privately while decent, are woefully behind the constant leaders in our conf. That matters as private planes allow much quicker and more effective responses, to effectively recruit plus allows more territory to be covered in the same time periods. Assistant coaches can be paid more, Players can miss less class time etc. Lack of a private gym is a huge factor for the prospect who believes the NBA/professional contract is a strong possibility. All issues we know, but the reality is Cal is running a race with weights on their shoulders plain and simple. Yes valid excuses - but not to finish dead last. The team has to produce this season - will be very telling and hopefully they can be healthy and compete even up.

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We always appreciate your info/perspective, 4thGen.

The fact that Fox was not my first choice to hire and the fact that Matt Bradley chose to leave, to me those are both water under the bridge, at this point. Where do we go from here?

1. Sounds like Fox makes an effort to woo the large donors, but all us "average" fans (I am a long-time season ticket holder) get is this radio silence, so it is only natural for many of us to perceive that he is ignoring the "face of the program" aspect of his job. Obviously though, the #1 thing he can do to get butts in the seats is win... and hopefully that is what he's concentrating on. Thanks for the reassurance there.

2. You have referenced the injuries to Hyder and Celestine. Any more info on that? I remember one of them coming up lame towards the end of our last or next-to-last game. Without much other shooting ability in our backcourt, I think we are really going to need Celestine to step up this season. Hyder, too, but the transfer, Shepherd, seems to have a similar skill set.

3. Would tend to agree with sluggo that our prime recruiting areas seem like they should be... a) California... b) Pac 12 footprint and... c) foreign. Not sure what chances we have with Top 200 players from back east, but maybe Fox and Francis feel they have connections they can tap there. Anyway, that's way above my pay grade.

4. Regarding all the constraints that the program faces, I'd really like to see those get smoothed out, which, in turn, would help us attract better players and coaches. Otherwise, what hope will we ever have to be a consistent winner? Right now, it just feels like we're spinning our wheels. Unfortunately, this one is also above my pay grade... literally. (Hopin' for 5 lucky numbers and 1 mega-number. Players would love the new Big C Practice Facility!)

Go Bears.

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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4thGenCal said:

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sluggo said:

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Thanks for your insider perspective. I would never guess that Fox's failures are a result of his not working hard enough. Rather, he appears to be a dinosaur. The world moved and he did not move with it. I don't know what he thought he would do when he got that Cal job, a job that he should not have gotten given his mediocre to worse results. But he was available and the AD felt cultural affinity for him.

These are the ways I think he has gone wrong since coming to Cal. First, he needed to play at a faster pace. Maybe if he had success like Tony Bennett he could walk it up. But no top recruit prefers a slower pace. You can mention excuses like grades and no practice facility, but I think this is huge and it is his fault. I don't care if that is not what he likes. Second, he had to do everything he could to keep his top player. If that is beneath him then he is in the wrong business. Third, he needed to hire an offensive guru assistant as the offensive executions of his teams is awful. He showed in the first year that he could teach defense, but one has to know their strengths and weaknesses. Fourth, he needed a better recruiting strategy. Mine would be Bay Area, Southern California and foreign. Perhaps foreigners were not realistic during the pandemic, but one has to question the assistant coach who has those roots. It is amazing he did not hire a west coast recruiting specialist given he had no west coach ties. If he did not have money he needed to give someone a chance who was young or from the outside. Running around chasing randoms and semi-randoms is work, but it was not going to get him anywhere.

The team has no chance this coming year. It is too late for him now. I maintain that Cal is one of the best academic schools in the world, has the best weather in the world and an interesting campus and urban environment. Someone else could make it work. (This is all pre-NIL, post-NIL who knows.)

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Thanks Sluggo and I agree on your points of 2 - 4 and maybe the last one as well. Fox would desire to play faster per his comments, its just that he conceded that with his roster the first 2 seasons he would not be at all competitive (defined as having a chance to win with less than 5 minutes to go). The roster lacked sufficient depth, minimal athleticism, and truly skilled open floor ball handlers. He often referred to his good friend - current HC at Nebraska who told him "I like our offensive scoring output" and Fox would smile and say and how many games did you win or have a chance of winning (they had an even worse season in the Big10). He has been frustrated that AK runs out of gas (thus gets in early foul trouble), Lars regresses in games from his practice effectiveness, and the lack of a physical defense, with proper rotations. The team simply would not have been close trying a faster pace than a game designed to be in the 60's. However yes - that is a necessary goal to attract the players of today, but to not underestimate the academic hurdles to gain admission, is the basis for understanding how tough it is to get those types of players.
This program in my view for the long term, needs a practice facility to entice the high end prospect (All top programs have one, as well as all but one in the conference) and needs an administration willing to take a few chances on the marginal student athlete (by providing the right support structure academically). Certainly we also need more donors stepping up, as that saying "money does not talk, it shouts" rings true. Football has the grid club and when needed funds are privately raised (not easily btw) they help retain key coaches, who otherwise would be poached away by our league competitors.

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Cal wants more donors to step up, yet Cal insults us to our faces by hiring a completely unqualified coach such as Wyking Jones? We're not stupid, you know... It'll be quite a bit longer before I forgive that decision...

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