Fox has no control or influence on which players from opposing teams decide to enter or not enter the draft. Fox has plenty of things you can legitimately blame him for, but blaming him for the decisions of other team's players to not enter the draft is not one of them.socaliganbear said:
The gap is certainly not moving in our favor. Way to go, Fox.
Your are probably right, but it seems a lot to ask of a coach having been out of basketball for a year, then taking the Cal job and having only a couple of months to try and develop West Coast contacts, and sign his first class from players not already committed to other schools. He did have a full year to recruit his 2nd class, so I'd base my criticism of Fox on what we saw last season, except that it was the year of Covid, and I can't evaluate this year's class until they actually play in games. Of the players from 2018-19 that Fox failed to keep, I doubt that any of them would have been qualified for the NBA either. After he was hired and players had defected, I was hoping he would hold some scholarships, rather than waste them on projects or grad transfers. But he didn't, and it is what it is. I think we were spoiled by Cuonzo, who had a poor first recruiting class, but everyone knew he had a shot at Brown and Rabb, and he delivered on them. Still, I have argued forever that one-and-dones don't help you, unless you can complement them with some very good teammates, and keep a steady stream of stars coming in the years ahead. Cuonzo was not successful at that, but 3 seasons is too short a time to judge a coach, IMO, whether it be Cuonzo or Fox. Where Fox has disappointed me the most, is in his coaching. We knew he was not a good offensive coach, but his defense has not looked good either, overall. And I haven't been overwhelmed by his public personality. If I was a player needing to decide where to go, I'm not sure he would be able to convince me to play for him, not based on the record, but just how the team looks on the floor. They don't take advantage of their strengths and they don't play together. It seemed like all we did was pass the ball to Bradley and clear space for him, or watch while Betley and Foreman shot way too many shots by themselves. If that is sharing the ball, I don't want to see it anymore. I'll get sucked in and tune in for a few games this season, hoping for improvement.stu said:
I can blame Fox for not having any players remotely qualified for the NBA draft.
I've had 2 interactions with Foxstu said:
Good point SFCityBear about one-and-done recruits. I'd rather have a steady stream of 3- and 4-stay players who will stay 4 years. But so far I haven't seen that and 2022 isn't yet looking better. It might be too early to tell but I'm getting impatient.
Regarding coaching and personality, these are my priorities for a coach:
3) Personal relations. A head coach has to relate well to a variety recruits, players, staff, administration, donors, media, and fans. I have seen no evidence this is a strong point with Fox.
SFCityBear said:Your are probably right, but it seems a lot to ask of a coach having been out of basketball for a year, then taking the Cal job and having only a couple of months to try and develop West Coast contacts, and sign his first class from players not already committed to other schools. He did have a full year to recruit his 2nd class, so I'd base my criticism of Fox on what we saw last season, except that it was the year of Covid, and I can't evaluate this year's class until they actually play in games. Of the players from 2018-19 that Fox failed to keep, I doubt that any of them would have been qualified for the NBA either. After he was hired and players had defected, I was hoping he would hold some scholarships, rather than waste them on projects or grad transfers. But he didn't, and it is what it is. I think we were spoiled by Cuonzo, who had a poor first recruiting class, but everyone knew he had a shot at Brown and Rabb, and he delivered on them. Still, I have argued forever that one-and-dones don't help you, unless you can complement them with some very good teammates, and keep a steady stream of stars coming in the years ahead. Cuonzo was not successful at that, but 3 seasons is too short a time to judge a coach, IMO, whether it be Cuonzo or Fox. Where Fox has disappointed me the most, is in his coaching. We knew he was not a good offensive coach, but his defense has not looked good either, overall. And I haven't been overwhelmed by his public personality. If I was a player needing to decide where to go, I'm not sure he would be able to convince me to play for him, not based on the record, but just how the team looks on the floor. They don't take advantage of their strengths and they don't play together. It seemed like all we did was pass the ball to Bradley and clear space for him, or watch while Betley and Foreman shot way too many shots by themselves. If that is sharing the ball, I don't want to see it anymore. I'll get sucked in and tune in for a few games this season, hoping for improvement.stu said:
I can blame Fox for not having any players remotely qualified for the NBA draft.
To me, this is still letting Fox (maybe Knowlton more) off the hook. If those things were actually harder for Fox, we should certainly be able to ask (1) why he was the choice, and (2) why he didn't come in with a better plan (i.e. an assistant with real California/west-coast recruiting ties).SFCityBear said:Your are probably right, but it seems a lot to ask of a coach having been out of basketball for a year, then taking the Cal job and having only a couple of months to try and develop West Coast contacts, and sign his first class from players not already committed to other schools.stu said:
I can blame Fox for not having any players remotely qualified for the NBA draft.
If only there were other 2nd year coaches around the country who also had to play during the year of Covid that we could maybe compare Fox with to see how they were progressing. But unfortunately, only Fox was in that position, so I guess we'll never know if maybe he could have done better </sarcasm>.Quote:
He did have a full year to recruit his 2nd class, so I'd base my criticism of Fox on what we saw last season, except that it was the year of Covid, and I can't evaluate this year's class until they actually play in games.
Quote:
Of the players from 2018-19 that Fox failed to keep, I doubt that any of them would have been qualified for the NBA either.
Quote:
After he was hired and players had defected, I was hoping he would hold some scholarships, rather than waste them on projects or grad transfers. But he didn't, and it is what it is. I think we were spoiled by Cuonzo, who had a poor first recruiting class, but everyone knew he had a shot at Brown and Rabb, and he delivered on them. Still, I have argued forever that one-and-dones don't help you, unless you can complement them with some very good teammates, and keep a steady stream of stars coming in the years ahead. Cuonzo was not successful at that, but 3 seasons is too short a time to judge a coach, IMO, whether it be Cuonzo or Fox. Where Fox has disappointed me the most, is in his coaching. We knew he was not a good offensive coach, but his defense has not looked good either, overall. And I haven't been overwhelmed by his public personality. If I was a player needing to decide where to go, I'm not sure he would be able to convince me to play for him, not based on the record, but just how the team looks on the floor. They don't take advantage of their strengths and they don't play together. It seemed like all we did was pass the ball to Bradley and clear space for him, or watch while Betley and Foreman shot way too many shots by themselves. If that is sharing the ball, I don't want to see it anymore. I'll get sucked in and tune in for a few games this season, hoping for improvement.
CalLifer said:To me, this is still letting Fox (maybe Knowlton more) off the hook. If those things were actually harder for Fox, we should certainly be able to ask (1) why he was the choice, and (2) why he didn't come in with a better plan (i.e. an assistant with real California/west-coast recruiting ties).SFCityBear said:Your are probably right, but it seems a lot to ask of a coach having been out of basketball for a year, then taking the Cal job and having only a couple of months to try and develop West Coast contacts, and sign his first class from players not already committed to other schools.stu said:
I can blame Fox for not having any players remotely qualified for the NBA draft.If only there were other 2nd year coaches around the country who also had to play during the year of Covid that we could maybe compare Fox with to see how they were progressing. But unfortunately, only Fox was in that position, so I guess we'll never know if maybe he could have done better </sarcasm>.Quote:
He did have a full year to recruit his 2nd class, so I'd base my criticism of Fox on what we saw last season, except that it was the year of Covid, and I can't evaluate this year's class until they actually play in games.Quote:
Of the players from 2018-19 that Fox failed to keep, I doubt that any of them would have been qualified for the NBA either.
Those players would have contributed *significantly* to our team being considerably better than we were. Sueing was a key contributor to a very strong OSU team that challenged for the league title in a conference with 3 or 4 top 2 seeds in the tournament (so among the top 8 teams in the country). Vanover, esp by the end of his freshman year, was playing at a level better than any of our centers the following year. I do think Vanover made a bad choice going to Arkansas to play for a coach whose up-and-down style didn't mesh with his abilities, but Fox didn't hold on to him.
I appreciate you are responding to a previous poster's comment about NBA caliber players, but this is another way of not holding Fox accountable for dramatically reducing the talent of the team.Quote:
After he was hired and players had defected, I was hoping he would hold some scholarships, rather than waste them on projects or grad transfers. But he didn't, and it is what it is. I think we were spoiled by Cuonzo, who had a poor first recruiting class, but everyone knew he had a shot at Brown and Rabb, and he delivered on them. Still, I have argued forever that one-and-dones don't help you, unless you can complement them with some very good teammates, and keep a steady stream of stars coming in the years ahead. Cuonzo was not successful at that, but 3 seasons is too short a time to judge a coach, IMO, whether it be Cuonzo or Fox. Where Fox has disappointed me the most, is in his coaching. We knew he was not a good offensive coach, but his defense has not looked good either, overall. And I haven't been overwhelmed by his public personality. If I was a player needing to decide where to go, I'm not sure he would be able to convince me to play for him, not based on the record, but just how the team looks on the floor. They don't take advantage of their strengths and they don't play together. It seemed like all we did was pass the ball to Bradley and clear space for him, or watch while Betley and Foreman shot way too many shots by themselves. If that is sharing the ball, I don't want to see it anymore. I'll get sucked in and tune in for a few games this season, hoping for improvement.
I agree with most of this, but to combine all of it, the bottom line is that Fox has disappointed with his ability to hold onto the talent on the team when he was hired, disappointed with his recruiting, and disappointed with his coaching. Quite the trifecta!
Guess Fox can now sell playing in a strong conference.calumnus said:
Cal will face UCLA's Johnny juzang and Cody Riley, uSC's Isaiah Mobley, ASU's Marcus Bagley, Oregon's Eric Williams Jr and OSU's Warith Alatishe, Maurice Calloo and Roman Silva.
https://pac-12.com/article/2021/07/08/pac-12-mens-basketball-stars-announce-return-2021-22-season
wifeisafurd said:Guess Fox can now sell playing in a strong conference.calumnus said:
Cal will face UCLA's Johnny juzang and Cody Riley, uSC's Isaiah Mobley, ASU's Marcus Bagley, Oregon's Eric Williams Jr and OSU's Warith Alatishe, Maurice Calloo and Roman Silva.
https://pac-12.com/article/2021/07/08/pac-12-mens-basketball-stars-announce-return-2021-22-season
helltopay1 said:
Dear Hoop dreams..very disturbing if true..
On the radio post-game show, I heard him say, "the last place I want to be is on the Radio talking to you guys." Ouch...
Re; Knowlton..Sometimes you only get one chance to make an impression..Not only was the selection of Fox problematic, but, the process left a lot to be admired. Obviously, not a Basketball guy..There was nothing in his background which suggested he was a basketball guy. That only leaves Football. So, if Kn Wilton proves to be a flop, some of the criticism has to be borne by Chancellor Christ.
Looking at the conference realignment occurring, basketball simply doesn't matter. Cal may have a very talented roster for whatever conference Cal competes or be simply overmatched. Stay tuned.calumnus said:helltopay1 said:
Dear Hoop dreams..very disturbing if true..
On the radio post-game show, I heard him say, "the last place I want to be is on the Radio talking to you guys." Ouch...
Re; Knowlton..Sometimes you only get one chance to make an impression..Not only was the selection of Fox problematic, but, the process left a lot to be admired. Obviously, not a Basketball guy..There was nothing in his background which suggested he was a basketball guy. That only leaves Football. So, if Kn Wilton proves to be a flop, some of the criticism has to be borne by Chancellor Christ.
Wilcox was hired by Mike Williams.
Yes, the core problem was Christ hiring Knowlton, whose experience in the military, hockey and military academies was a poor fit for being Cal's AD at this critical juncture in our history.
wifeisafurd said:Looking at the conference realignment occurring, basketball simply doesn't matter. Cal may have a very talented roster for whatever conference Cal competes or be simply overmatched. Stay tuned.calumnus said:helltopay1 said:
Dear Hoop dreams..very disturbing if true..
On the radio post-game show, I heard him say, "the last place I want to be is on the Radio talking to you guys." Ouch...
Re; Knowlton..Sometimes you only get one chance to make an impression..Not only was the selection of Fox problematic, but, the process left a lot to be admired. Obviously, not a Basketball guy..There was nothing in his background which suggested he was a basketball guy. That only leaves Football. So, if Kn Wilton proves to be a flop, some of the criticism has to be borne by Chancellor Christ.
Wilcox was hired by Mike Williams.
Yes, the core problem was Christ hiring Knowlton, whose experience in the military, hockey and military academies was a poor fit for being Cal's AD at this critical juncture in our history.
wifeisafurd said:Looking at the conference realignment occurring, basketball simply doesn't matter. Cal may have a very talented roster for whatever conference Cal competes or be simply overmatched. Stay tuned.calumnus said:helltopay1 said:
Dear Hoop dreams..very disturbing if true..
On the radio post-game show, I heard him say, "the last place I want to be is on the Radio talking to you guys." Ouch...
Re; Knowlton..Sometimes you only get one chance to make an impression..Not only was the selection of Fox problematic, but, the process left a lot to be admired. Obviously, not a Basketball guy..There was nothing in his background which suggested he was a basketball guy. That only leaves Football. So, if Kn Wilton proves to be a flop, some of the criticism has to be borne by Chancellor Christ.
Wilcox was hired by Mike Williams.
Yes, the core problem was Christ hiring Knowlton, whose experience in the military, hockey and military academies was a poor fit for being Cal's AD at this critical juncture in our history.
Many have suggested over the years that Cal join the Ivy League, for football at least. It is clear that we are now not keeping up with the PAC12 in basketball, and it may be that it is too tough a basketball conference for us.wifeisafurd said:Looking at the conference realignment occurring, basketball simply doesn't matter. Cal may have a very talented roster for whatever conference Cal competes or be simply overmatched. Stay tuned.calumnus said:helltopay1 said:
Dear Hoop dreams..very disturbing if true..
On the radio post-game show, I heard him say, "the last place I want to be is on the Radio talking to you guys." Ouch...
Re; Knowlton..Sometimes you only get one chance to make an impression..Not only was the selection of Fox problematic, but, the process left a lot to be admired. Obviously, not a Basketball guy..There was nothing in his background which suggested he was a basketball guy. That only leaves Football. So, if Kn Wilton proves to be a flop, some of the criticism has to be borne by Chancellor Christ.
Wilcox was hired by Mike Williams.
Yes, the core problem was Christ hiring Knowlton, whose experience in the military, hockey and military academies was a poor fit for being Cal's AD at this critical juncture in our history.
stu said:
To me the coach is a bigger concern than the conference. I doubt out last two coaches would have great success in any respectable conference.
