Randle will be on the floor today, but unfortunately not at the FT line

drizzlybear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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drizzlybear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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With all due respect, I'm not sure why we are discussing this. Joel Brown is a player who takes less than one three point attempt (0.9) per game. He shoots them at a .325 clip (career), making a little below one out three, so on average, he makes one every 3 or 4 games. Over his career, his threes have been almost irrelevant. This year, he has been making them well below his usual percentage, so it would be wise for him to take even less attempts, as taking the same or more than usual would not be helping the team.

We had a point guard, Paris Austin, who also did not make threes very often, which we discussed, but not as much as we have discussed Brown's threes. Actually, Brown had a much better percentage than Austin, who shot them at .255 at Cal. And Austin also did not have many attempts, averaging 0.9 per game as well. Another point we had was Ty Wallace. Wallace shot threes at .292, better than Austin, but not as good as Brown's career average. The thing that bugged me about Wallace (and Cuonzo) was that Wallace took too many attempts (3.1 per game, or 4.0 per 40 min) for someone with a low percentage of success. Take that many and you are not helping your team.

Improving one's three point shooting is very iffy. It is a long shot, making it a low percentage shot, compared to most. But typically a player only shoots a couple of three point attempts in a game, so he hardly gets warmed up. The great ones, like Larry Bird or Steph Curry are shooting them all game long, so they are warmed up. They often hit 3 or 4 in a row, or more. Part time players like Jeff Powers or Nick Kerr are just good shots. They come off the bench and bingo, they hit their first (and sometimes only) shot. And they do that most of the time. They need hardly any warmup. So imagine a guy like Joel Brown, who might take a three after being in the game say, 5 minutes, or instead, maybe he's played 25 minutes of running, driving, passing rebounding, playing defense, and now he has an opening to take a three. Very different scenarios, and very hard to prepare for. The other thing is good shooters are born with an eye. You can tell by the 5th or 6th grade if a kid can shoot or not. I'm sure there are examples of players who can become better three point shooters beginning as a freshman in college who can't shoot threes, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Brown is a very poor free throw shooter for a guard at .468 career. That, IMO, is the shot he should be working on, because even if he never takes another three, he will get a couple of free throw attempts in games, and if he could improve that, it would help the team a little. Plus, it is easier for most shorter players at least to improve free throws than improve three point shooting. The distance is shorter, and no one is guarding you when you shoot them in a game. Nothing much to be concerned with other than your stroke and your mind, and of course, your confidence.

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If you look at the original post, it is specifically about the possibility that Brown is already improving his free throws. He has made 67% of his last 12 free throws. As that post says, it's obviously a small sample size, so it could be misleading; but it also could be a sign that he is improving, and could potentially become an adequate (though still not ideal) FT shooter. And that would be huge. And that is the point of the original post.

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I understood your original post. I wrote a lengthy post in reply, trying to say, with all due respect to you, that while an improvement in Brown's free throws would be huge, perhaps for him personally, and for his fans who care about his play, but it would not often be huge for the Cal team. He just does not get enough free throw attempts in a game to matter a lot, except in really close games decided by one or two points. And Cal usually loses by more than that. He averages less than two attempts per game. Nobody hardly ever fouls him. Brown is a terrific defender, and does not commit many personal fouls himself, but he commits more personal fouls than people foul him. Over the last two years, he has averaged 1.75 free throw attempts per game, while also fouling opponents at a rate of 2.6 personal fouls per game. He makes free throws at 0.85 per game.

For Brown to make a huge difference in the outcome of Cal games, he has to learn how to draw fouls. The usual way is to make more baskets, or make more assists, perhaps, or break down your defender on the dribble, get into the paint more. The big problem Brown has with this is that he is very fast, and very quick, and defenders can't catch up to him and foul him. They can't foul him much on the dribble, because his handle is too good, too quick. He blows by his man so fast, he leaves him in the dust. If he could finish better and finish more, score more points in the paint, he would start drawing fouls. If he could shoot mid-range shots and make them, he would draw more fouls. If he could make threes, and make more of them (he only shot one three point attempt per game over the last two seasons), then he would draw fouls. He is just too darn quick for most of his defenders, and not yet skilled enough to shoot and score a lot over the bigger defenders. He needs to get better at dishing in the lane, so that defenders will try extra hard to keep him out of the lane, and may have to foul him in the process, and give him free throws to shoot.

So, in my opinion, he has to work on drawing fouls, which is a skill, and work on his shooting from the field. He needs to learn to change speeds, slow down sometimes to sucker a defender into a foul. He has two speeds, fast and faster. You have to give the defender time to foul you. And practice your shooting more. Make a lot of baskets, and then defenders will give you free throws to shoot. Until that starts happening, it does not pay many dividends to practice shooting your free throws. Unless he can get more attempts, he is looking at adding maybe one more free throw made every other game,
on average.

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The biggest problem with Brown's poor FT shooting isn't the points lost during a game when he misses a free throw, it's the inability to have the team's PG on the floor in crunch time. That's a huge problem. (When we had Jerome Randle it was an incredible asset.)

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drizzlybear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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drizzlybear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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With all due respect, I'm not sure why we are discussing this. Joel Brown is a player who takes less than one three point attempt (0.9) per game. He shoots them at a .325 clip (career), making a little below one out three, so on average, he makes one every 3 or 4 games. Over his career, his threes have been almost irrelevant. This year, he has been making them well below his usual percentage, so it would be wise for him to take even less attempts, as taking the same or more than usual would not be helping the team.

We had a point guard, Paris Austin, who also did not make threes very often, which we discussed, but not as much as we have discussed Brown's threes. Actually, Brown had a much better percentage than Austin, who shot them at .255 at Cal. And Austin also did not have many attempts, averaging 0.9 per game as well. Another point we had was Ty Wallace. Wallace shot threes at .292, better than Austin, but not as good as Brown's career average. The thing that bugged me about Wallace (and Cuonzo) was that Wallace took too many attempts (3.1 per game, or 4.0 per 40 min) for someone with a low percentage of success. Take that many and you are not helping your team.

Improving one's three point shooting is very iffy. It is a long shot, making it a low percentage shot, compared to most. But typically a player only shoots a couple of three point attempts in a game, so he hardly gets warmed up. The great ones, like Larry Bird or Steph Curry are shooting them all game long, so they are warmed up. They often hit 3 or 4 in a row, or more. Part time players like Jeff Powers or Nick Kerr are just good shots. They come off the bench and bingo, they hit their first (and sometimes only) shot. And they do that most of the time. They need hardly any warmup. So imagine a guy like Joel Brown, who might take a three after being in the game say, 5 minutes, or instead, maybe he's played 25 minutes of running, driving, passing rebounding, playing defense, and now he has an opening to take a three. Very different scenarios, and very hard to prepare for. The other thing is good shooters are born with an eye. You can tell by the 5th or 6th grade if a kid can shoot or not. I'm sure there are examples of players who can become better three point shooters beginning as a freshman in college who can't shoot threes, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Brown is a very poor free throw shooter for a guard at .468 career. That, IMO, is the shot he should be working on, because even if he never takes another three, he will get a couple of free throw attempts in games, and if he could improve that, it would help the team a little. Plus, it is easier for most shorter players at least to improve free throws than improve three point shooting. The distance is shorter, and no one is guarding you when you shoot them in a game. Nothing much to be concerned with other than your stroke and your mind, and of course, your confidence.

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If you look at the original post, it is specifically about the possibility that Brown is already improving his free throws. He has made 67% of his last 12 free throws. As that post says, it's obviously a small sample size, so it could be misleading; but it also could be a sign that he is improving, and could potentially become an adequate (though still not ideal) FT shooter. And that would be huge. And that is the point of the original post.

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I understood your original post. I wrote a lengthy post in reply, trying to say, with all due respect to you, that while an improvement in Brown's free throws would be huge, perhaps for him personally, and for his fans who care about his play, but it would not often be huge for the Cal team. He just does not get enough free throw attempts in a game to matter a lot, except in really close games decided by one or two points. And Cal usually loses by more than that. He averages less than two attempts per game. Nobody hardly ever fouls him. Brown is a terrific defender, and does not commit many personal fouls himself, but he commits more personal fouls than people foul him. Over the last two years, he has averaged 1.75 free throw attempts per game, while also fouling opponents at a rate of 2.6 personal fouls per game. He makes free throws at 0.85 per game.

For Brown to make a huge difference in the outcome of Cal games, he has to learn how to draw fouls. The usual way is to make more baskets, or make more assists, perhaps, or break down your defender on the dribble, get into the paint more. The big problem Brown has with this is that he is very fast, and very quick, and defenders can't catch up to him and foul him. They can't foul him much on the dribble, because his handle is too good, too quick. He blows by his man so fast, he leaves him in the dust. If he could finish better and finish more, score more points in the paint, he would start drawing fouls. If he could shoot mid-range shots and make them, he would draw more fouls. If he could make threes, and make more of them (he only shot one three point attempt per game over the last two seasons), then he would draw fouls. He is just too darn quick for most of his defenders, and not yet skilled enough to shoot and score a lot over the bigger defenders. He needs to get better at dishing in the lane, so that defenders will try extra hard to keep him out of the lane, and may have to foul him in the process, and give him free throws to shoot.

So, in my opinion, he has to work on drawing fouls, which is a skill, and work on his shooting from the field. He needs to learn to change speeds, slow down sometimes to sucker a defender into a foul. He has two speeds, fast and faster. You have to give the defender time to foul you. And practice your shooting more. Make a lot of baskets, and then defenders will give you free throws to shoot. Until that starts happening, it does not pay many dividends to practice shooting your free throws. Unless he can get more attempts, he is looking at adding maybe one more free throw made every other game,
on average.

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The biggest problem with Brown's poor FT shooting isn't the points lost during a game when he misses a free throw, it's the inability to have the team's PG on the floor in crunch time. That's a huge problem. (When we had Jerome Randle it was an incredible asset.)

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That's a very good point.

Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

And not to hijack the thread, but what's Alajiki's 3 pt % down to now, after missing his last 3 or 4? (I know, I know: probably still pretty good) This is a guy with potential, who needs to iron out a lot of things in the next seven months.

Big C said:

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And not to hijack the thread, but what's Alajiki's 3 pt % down to now, after missing his last 3 or 4? (I know, I know: probably still pretty good) This is a guy with potential, who needs to iron out a lot of things in the next seven months.

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He seemed hyped up more than normal last night and taking shots when feet not set.

Big C said:

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And not to hijack the thread, but what's Alajiki's 3 pt % down to now, after missing his last 3 or 4? (I know, I know: probably still pretty good) This is a guy with potential, who needs to iron out a lot of things in the next seven months.

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.556. Strangely enough, he also shoots airballs at about a .333 clip.

sluggo said:

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Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

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Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

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Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

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That is one way to put it. But I would say that it was another day at the office for a guy who can't shoot from farther that three feet. He has no floater, no pull up in the lane, no free throw, no 3 point shot, none of the above. And I like Brown! He is so clever, it is like he sees the game differently than other players. I think of Rajon Rondo. But he can't fulfill his potential due to his poor shooting, which is a shame. I will always wonder if things would have turned out differently with a better coach, although I think it is up to players to fix the holes in their games.

sluggo said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

---

Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

---

That is one way to put it. But I would say that it was another day at the office for a guy who can't shoot from farther that three feet. He has no floater, no pull up in the lane, no free throw, no 3 point shot, none of the above. And I like Brown! He is so clever, it is like he sees the game differently than other players. I think of Rajon Rondo. But he can't fulfill his potential due to his poor shooting, which is a shame. I will always wonder if things would have turned out differently with a better coach, although I think it is up to players to fix the holes in their games.

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Sounds like we see him similarly, for the most part. I've been comparing Brown (his potential) to Prentice McGruder and Rajon Rondo. All are very similar in their ability to defend, dribble-drive, and pass and find others, and in their inability to shoot. I think that is Brown's potential, and notably, it doesn't involve being a good shooter. If any of those three could shoot well, we'd be talking about them as an entirely different caliber of player.

What Brown needs to do to become an effective player (like McGruder and Rondo) is become an adequate free throw shooter. Where you and I might differ is that I think Brown has the ability to become an adequate FT shooter during his time at Cal (although I was thinking he would be at Cal for two more seasons, whereas 4thGen says Brown will likely play only one more year at Cal). I don't believe Brown will ever be a good shooter while at Cal, but he doesn't have to be; just as McGruder and Rondo were not. But he does have to become a decent FT shooter (65%). I think he will be.

sluggo said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

---

Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

---

That is one way to put it. But I would say that it was another day at the office for a guy who can't shoot from farther that three feet. He has no floater, no pull up in the lane, no free throw, no 3 point shot, none of the above. And I like Brown! He is so clever, it is like he sees the game differently than other players. I think of Rajon Rondo. But he can't fulfill his potential due to his poor shooting, which is a shame. I will always wonder if things would have turned out differently with a better coach, although I think it is up to players to fix the holes in their games.

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I've not seen any practices, but It is not usually the head coach who works with individual players to help them to learn or improve their individual skills. It is the assistant coaches. And I don't think you can blame Brown's lack of improvement on Fox, as nearly all of his players who have remained healthy have improved individually under the tutelage of this coaching staff. I don't disagree with your assessment, but if you say you like Brown, I don't think I'd enjoy reading what you'd say about a player you don't like. Ben Braun was a successful coach for many years at Cal, compared to some Cal coaches, but I can't think of any player who improved individually under him and his coaching staff. HTP1 said that you usually can tell if a kid can shoot by the 6th grade, which I agree with. There are some players who can improve their shooting, but often that is a talented player learning things in the pros after college like Tyrone and Jalen.

Big C said:

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SFCityBear said:

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sluggo said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

---

Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

---

That is one way to put it. But I would say that it was another day at the office for a guy who can't shoot from farther that three feet. He has no floater, no pull up in the lane, no free throw, no 3 point shot, none of the above. And I like Brown! He is so clever, it is like he sees the game differently than other players. I think of Rajon Rondo. But he can't fulfill his potential due to his poor shooting, which is a shame. I will always wonder if things would have turned out differently with a better coach, although I think it is up to players to fix the holes in their games.

---

I've not seen any practices, but It is not usually the head coach who works with individual players to help them to learn or improve their individual skills. It is the assistant coaches. And I don't think you can blame Brown's lack of improvement on Fox, as nearly all of his players who have remained healthy have improved individually under the tutelage of this coaching staff. I don't disagree with your assessment, but if you say you like Brown, I don't think I'd enjoy reading what you'd say about a player you don't like. Ben Braun was a successful coach for many years at Cal, compared to some Cal coaches, but I can't think of any player who improved individually under him and his coaching staff. HTP1 said that you usually can tell if a kid can shoot by the 6th grade, which I agree with. There are some players who can improve their shooting, but often that is a talented player learning things in the pros after college like Tyrone and Jalen.

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Sean Lampley
Joe Shipp
Brian Wethers
Rod Benson
DeVon Hardin

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I'd remove Hardin as he woefully never lived up to his potential, but you could certainly replace him with Ubaka and Solomon and RFK and even Erik V. Trying to come up with full 4-year players that stayed healthy under Braun is actually the hard part.

Civil Bear said:

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Big C said:

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SFCityBear said:

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sluggo said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

---

Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

---

That is one way to put it. But I would say that it was another day at the office for a guy who can't shoot from farther that three feet. He has no floater, no pull up in the lane, no free throw, no 3 point shot, none of the above. And I like Brown! He is so clever, it is like he sees the game differently than other players. I think of Rajon Rondo. But he can't fulfill his potential due to his poor shooting, which is a shame. I will always wonder if things would have turned out differently with a better coach, although I think it is up to players to fix the holes in their games.

---

I've not seen any practices, but It is not usually the head coach who works with individual players to help them to learn or improve their individual skills. It is the assistant coaches. And I don't think you can blame Brown's lack of improvement on Fox, as nearly all of his players who have remained healthy have improved individually under the tutelage of this coaching staff. I don't disagree with your assessment, but if you say you like Brown, I don't think I'd enjoy reading what you'd say about a player you don't like. Ben Braun was a successful coach for many years at Cal, compared to some Cal coaches, but I can't think of any player who improved individually under him and his coaching staff. HTP1 said that you usually can tell if a kid can shoot by the 6th grade, which I agree with. There are some players who can improve their shooting, but often that is a talented player learning things in the pros after college like Tyrone and Jalen.

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Sean Lampley
Joe Shipp
Brian Wethers
Rod Benson
DeVon Hardin

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I'd remove Hardin as he woefully never lived up to his potential, but you could certainly replace him with Ubaka and Solomon and RFK and even Erik V. Trying to come up with full 4-year players that stayed healthy under Braun is actually the hard part.

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Ubaka and Solomon are good on the list. Hardin never reached his full potential at Cal (injury his senior year?), but his freshman year, he wasn't even minutes-worthy, so he actually progressed a lot over three years.

Big C said:

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SFCityBear said:

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sluggo said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

---

Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

---

That is one way to put it. But I would say that it was another day at the office for a guy who can't shoot from farther that three feet. He has no floater, no pull up in the lane, no free throw, no 3 point shot, none of the above. And I like Brown! He is so clever, it is like he sees the game differently than other players. I think of Rajon Rondo. But he can't fulfill his potential due to his poor shooting, which is a shame. I will always wonder if things would have turned out differently with a better coach, although I think it is up to players to fix the holes in their games.

---

I've not seen any practices, but It is not usually the head coach who works with individual players to help them to learn or improve their individual skills. It is the assistant coaches. And I don't think you can blame Brown's lack of improvement on Fox, as nearly all of his players who have remained healthy have improved individually under the tutelage of this coaching staff. I don't disagree with your assessment, but if you say you like Brown, I don't think I'd enjoy reading what you'd say about a player you don't like. Ben Braun was a successful coach for many years at Cal, compared to some Cal coaches, but I can't think of any player who improved individually under him and his coaching staff. HTP1 said that you usually can tell if a kid can shoot by the 6th grade, which I agree with. There are some players who can improve their shooting, but often that is a talented player learning things in the pros after college like Tyrone and Jalen.

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Sean Lampley
Joe Shipp
Brian Wethers
Rod Benson
DeVon Hardin

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I think Sluggo and I and the rest of the previous posters have been talking about improvement in shooting, not improvement in general. Thanks for your input. There have been some, maybe many who improved their shooting under Ben Braun. I always get in trouble when I make broad generalizations, and I was too lazy to check first before flying to the keyboard.

Here are some numbers:

Lampley: 2P% increased from 47% to 53%, 3P% decreased from 26% to 21%, FT% increased from 59% to 74%. Lampley improved, except his threes, which I'd guess were not a focus for him.

Shipp: 2P% went from 60% to 56%, 3P% went from 32% to 35%, FT% flat, about 76%. Shipp's net improvement was minimal, if any.

Wethers: 2P% went from 49-55-54-51% over 4 seasons. 3P% went from 19-44-19-40%. FT% decreased from 70 to 65%. Wethers either had a good season shooting the ball, or a poor one. Hard to say that he improved his shooting at Cal.

Benson: Did not play much in his first year. He played a lot in his 3rd year, and less in his 4th year. His 2P% went from 44-54-47, FT% 50-68-62. Benson also hot and cold years like Wethers, but he made significant improvement in his free throw shooting.

Hardin: In his 3rd season, injured and played only 11 games, so I'll skip that year. 2P% went from 50-51-55%, FT% 39-63-64%. Hardin made slight improvement in field goal shooting, and significant improvement shooting FTs.

Civil Bear said:

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Big C said:

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SFCityBear said:

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sluggo said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

---

Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

---

That is one way to put it. But I would say that it was another day at the office for a guy who can't shoot from farther that three feet. He has no floater, no pull up in the lane, no free throw, no 3 point shot, none of the above. And I like Brown! He is so clever, it is like he sees the game differently than other players. I think of Rajon Rondo. But he can't fulfill his potential due to his poor shooting, which is a shame. I will always wonder if things would have turned out differently with a better coach, although I think it is up to players to fix the holes in their games.

---

I've not seen any practices, but It is not usually the head coach who works with individual players to help them to learn or improve their individual skills. It is the assistant coaches. And I don't think you can blame Brown's lack of improvement on Fox, as nearly all of his players who have remained healthy have improved individually under the tutelage of this coaching staff. I don't disagree with your assessment, but if you say you like Brown, I don't think I'd enjoy reading what you'd say about a player you don't like. Ben Braun was a successful coach for many years at Cal, compared to some Cal coaches, but I can't think of any player who improved individually under him and his coaching staff. HTP1 said that you usually can tell if a kid can shoot by the 6th grade, which I agree with. There are some players who can improve their shooting, but often that is a talented player learning things in the pros after college like Tyrone and Jalen.

---

Sean Lampley
Joe Shipp
Brian Wethers
Rod Benson
DeVon Hardin

---

I'd remove Hardin as he woefully never lived up to his potential, but you could certainly replace him with Ubaka and Solomon and RFK and even Erik V. Trying to come up with full 4-year players that stayed healthy under Braun is actually the hard part.

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I don't disagree with you on Hardin leaving us very disappointed, but if we stick to the original subject of the thread, Joel Brown's shooting, I think Hardin did make slight improvement in shooting percentage, and significant improvement in FT shooting.

Here are numbers I found for your other suggestions:

Ubaka: 2P% 41-40-45-47%, 3P% 26-30-37-36%, FT% 70-65-83-78% Ubaka should definitely be added to the list. I'd add that the guy was money in the bank on the FT line in the last minute of a game, either to win a game or save it.

Solomon Hughes (I assume you meant him, as Richard S played only for Montgomery)
2P%: 52-53-63-59%, FT% 23-37-43-37%. So he improved his FG shooting a decent amount, but his FT shooting was abysmal.

RFK: 2P% 60-58-55-60%, 3P% 45-32-38%, FT% 83-50-78-77 His 2P percentage was flat, his FT% was good but also flat, except for a bad soph season. He only shot 2 three point attempts at a frosh, but after that his 3P% steadily declined. I think his big problem was Braun not recognizing his talent early. I would not say he improved his shooting at Cal, but I was sure glad that Braun did play him a lot for 3 years.

Eric Vierneisel was a big disappointment for some of us, including me. He spoiled us, by making, what was it, 6 or 7 threes in his first game, as I remember? In any case he worked hard to be a good player, and improved, but not much in shooting, IMO. He played very little in his soph season: 2P% 48-67-42-48%, 3P% 33-15-33-30%, FT% 69-88-65-73

In general I wouldn't expect to see huge shooting improvements from the best players. The better they get the more shots they'll be expected to take and the more attention they'll get from defenses.

K2 could be better than Antivich. Quicker, more athletic more fire. When he plays more under control and settles down he could be quite good. Alijike is unknown but pretty good as a freshman.

In general, shooters need to be recruited. It is volume work that needs to be done earlier in their development. There is too much going on at the college level for them to put in the hours to markedly improve. It may even be almost an inmate skill, or at least a college coach can almost view it that way.

One of the reasons Monty was successful early at Stanford is he would bring in guys who were lightly recruited because they were not very athletic and could not create their own shot, but we're great dead-eye spot up shooters, over .400 from three. He would then use picks and set plays to get them open looks.

The area where you see more development at the college level is with bigs. Normally they could overwhelm the competition at lower levels, so they need to learn better technique, especially footwork, to ho against guys their own size. They may also still growing into their own body and need to catch up on coordination. In football you see the same with OL and to a lesser extent, DL. They dominated by being bigger In HS and now need to learn more technique. Skill position guys pretty much need to have shown those skills at the lower level (though some guys dominated with pure speed and now everyone is fast).

Most of the practice time is then working on teamwork, plays, routes, strategy. Pointers on technique for sure, but it is tough to do wholesale basic skill development at the college level.

calumnus said:

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In general, shooters need to be recruited. It is volume work that needs to be done earlier in their development. There is too much going on at the college level for them to put in the hours to markedly improve.

One of the reasons Monty was successful early at Stanford is he would bring in guys who were lightly recruited because they were not very athletic and could not create their own shot, but we're great spot up shooters. He would then use picks and set plays to get them open looks.

The area where you see more development at the college level is with bigs. Normally they could overwhelm the competition at lower levels, so they need to learn better technique to ho against guys their own size. In football you see the same with OL and to a lesser extent, DL. Skill position guys pretty much need to have shown those skills at the lower level.

Most of the practice time is then working on teamwork, plays, routes, strategy. Pointers on technique for sure, but it is tough to do wholesale basic skill development.

---

That is what summers are for.

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

In general, shooters need to be recruited. It is volume work that needs to be done earlier in their development. There is too much going on at the college level for them to put in the hours to markedly improve.

One of the reasons Monty was successful early at Stanford is he would bring in guys who were lightly recruited because they were not very athletic and could not create their own shot, but we're great spot up shooters. He would then use picks and set plays to get them open looks.

The area where you see more development at the college level is with bigs. Normally they could overwhelm the competition at lower levels, so they need to learn better technique to ho against guys their own size. In football you see the same with OL and to a lesser extent, DL. Skill position guys pretty much need to have shown those skills at the lower level.

Most of the practice time is then working on teamwork, plays, routes, strategy. Pointers on technique for sure, but it is tough to do wholesale basic skill development.

---

That is what summers are for.

---

Some, but they cannot work with the coaches. They may play in summer leagues. Moreover, It is not reasonable to expect a player to develop a core skill in 2 or 3 months that they failed to develop in the prior 10 years.

Again, in general, shooters are recruited, not created. I'm sure there are exceptions and they should always work on improvement. Jason Kidd is a great example of a guy who became a good shooter after being a bad shooter, but he did it as a professional, while devoted 100% to basketball, not while under the heavy time constraints of being a student athlete at Cal.

calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

In general, shooters need to be recruited. It is volume work that needs to be done earlier in their development. There is too much going on at the college level for them to put in the hours to markedly improve.

One of the reasons Monty was successful early at Stanford is he would bring in guys who were lightly recruited because they were not very athletic and could not create their own shot, but we're great spot up shooters. He would then use picks and set plays to get them open looks.

The area where you see more development at the college level is with bigs. Normally they could overwhelm the competition at lower levels, so they need to learn better technique to ho against guys their own size. In football you see the same with OL and to a lesser extent, DL. Skill position guys pretty much need to have shown those skills at the lower level.

Most of the practice time is then working on teamwork, plays, routes, strategy. Pointers on technique for sure, but it is tough to do wholesale basic skill development.

---

That is what summers are for.

---

Some, but they cannot work with the coaches. They may play in summer leagues. Moreover, It is not reasonable to expect a player to develop a core skill in 2 or 3 months that they failed to develop in the prior 10 years.

Again, in general, shooters are recruited, not created. I'm sure there are exceptions and they should always work on improvement. Jason Kidd is a great example of a guy who became a good shooter after being a bad shooter, but he did it as a professional, while devoted 100% to basketball, not while under the heavy time constraints of being a student athlete at Cal.

---

Are you sure about this? My understanding is that in 2012, the NCAA changed the rules to permit coaches to work with players 2 hours a day, with a maximum of 8 hours a week, as long as the player was on track to graduate or be enrolled in summer school. The rule was suspended during the pandemic, during which time coaches could not work with players. In 2020, the NCAA lifted the suspension and restored the rule to allow coaches to work with players during the summer.

Fox has said publicly on several occasions that summer is the time for players to improve, when the coaches can work with players, and that he felt the team's performance had suffered because of the restriction which prohibited coaches and players to work together prior to those seasons. He said well before this season, that he was looking forward to this current season, because the players would have a summer to work with coaches, and that is when players have a chance to work on improving.

Many Cal players have developed skills during their college careers, and improved their shooting. Allen Crabbe spent a summer developing a floater, which made him an even better player, and he worked with a coach during that summer, a shooting coach, and not a Cal coach. Most players can not "develop a core skill" over a summer, but players can and have improved skills over the summer, and coaching can help shorten the time it takes to achieve a goal. Joel Brown faces a tough road, even with coaching, because his shot is so unorthodox, and there will be few if any coaches who could teach him to shoot, without dismantling his stroke and start over, doing something unnatural for him. Ty Wallace had a similar problem, but not as severe as Brown's, and showed no improvement in college. Sam Singer's stroke was somewhere between the two, and he sadly never improved his shooting at Cal either.

SFCityBear said:

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calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

In general, shooters need to be recruited. It is volume work that needs to be done earlier in their development. There is too much going on at the college level for them to put in the hours to markedly improve.

One of the reasons Monty was successful early at Stanford is he would bring in guys who were lightly recruited because they were not very athletic and could not create their own shot, but we're great spot up shooters. He would then use picks and set plays to get them open looks.

The area where you see more development at the college level is with bigs. Normally they could overwhelm the competition at lower levels, so they need to learn better technique to ho against guys their own size. In football you see the same with OL and to a lesser extent, DL. Skill position guys pretty much need to have shown those skills at the lower level.

Most of the practice time is then working on teamwork, plays, routes, strategy. Pointers on technique for sure, but it is tough to do wholesale basic skill development.

---

That is what summers are for.

---

Some, but they cannot work with the coaches. They may play in summer leagues. Moreover, It is not reasonable to expect a player to develop a core skill in 2 or 3 months that they failed to develop in the prior 10 years.

Again, in general, shooters are recruited, not created. I'm sure there are exceptions and they should always work on improvement. Jason Kidd is a great example of a guy who became a good shooter after being a bad shooter, but he did it as a professional, while devoted 100% to basketball, not while under the heavy time constraints of being a student athlete at Cal.

---

Are you sure about this? My understanding is that in 2012, the NCAA changed the rules to permit coaches to work with players 2 hours a day, with a maximum of 8 hours a week, as long as the player was on track to graduate or be enrolled in summer school. The rule was suspended during the pandemic, during which time coaches could not work with players. In 2020, the NCAA lifted the suspension and restored the rule to allow coaches to work with players during the summer.

Fox has said publicly on several occasions that summer is the time for players to improve, when the coaches can work with players, and that he felt the team's performance had suffered because of the restriction which prohibited coaches and players to work together prior to those seasons. He said well before this season, that he was looking forward to this current season, because the players would have a summer to work with coaches, and that is when players have a chance to work on improving.

Many Cal players have developed skills during their college careers, and improved their shooting. Allen Crabbe spent a summer developing a floater, which made him an even better player, and he worked with a coach during that summer, a shooting coach, and not a Cal coach. Most players can not "develop a core skill" over a summer, but players can and have improved skills over the summer, and coaching can help shorten the time it takes to achieve a goal. Joel Brown faces a tough road, even with coaching, because his shot is so unorthodox, and there will be few if any coaches who could teach him to shoot, without dismantling his stroke and start over, doing something unnatural for him. Ty Wallace had a similar problem, but not as severe as Brown's, and showed no improvement in college. Sam Singer's stroke was somewhere between the two, and he sadly never improved his shooting at Cal either.

---

Yes, you are probably right about the summer workouts. However, Wallace and Singer are good examples of guys like Brown that couldn't shoot and whose shooting didn't improve in their four years at Cal, despite being able to work with coaches in summer workouts as you point out. Adding a move, or Crabbe, a skilled shooter and great athlete adding a floater is not the same.

Agree with you that reconstructing Browns shot is a major project.

Again, in general shooters are recruited, not created.

Not coincidentally,, Cal is 11th in 3 pointers made, 9th in 3pt %. Last in scoring. On the other hand, we are #1 at defending the 3, which is fantastic. Brown is a big part of that.

calumnus said:

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Not coincidentally,, Cal is 11th in 3 pointers made, 9th in 3pt %. Last in scoring. On the other hand, we are #1 at defending the 3, which is fantastic. Brown is a big part of that.

---

#1 in 3FG% defense is indeed great!

A little off topic:
We're #1 in 3FG% defense at .307, within .008 of #5.
We're #5 in overall FG% defense at .413, within .005 of #4 through #7 but .026 behind #2
If I did the arithmetic right then we're #7 in 2FG% defense at .471, within .007 of #4 through #8 but .057 behind #3 .

We're #2 in defensive REB% at .776, .006 behind #1 and .017 ahead of #4.
We're #12 in opponent TO per game at 9.66, within 0.91 of #11. This is certainly skewed low by our slow pace.

Overall I'd call these defensive numbers well into the upper half of the conference, maybe #3.

I don't want to talk about our offensive numbers.

SFCityBear said:

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Big C said:

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SFCityBear said:

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sluggo said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

---

Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

---

That is one way to put it. But I would say that it was another day at the office for a guy who can't shoot from farther that three feet. He has no floater, no pull up in the lane, no free throw, no 3 point shot, none of the above. And I like Brown! He is so clever, it is like he sees the game differently than other players. I think of Rajon Rondo. But he can't fulfill his potential due to his poor shooting, which is a shame. I will always wonder if things would have turned out differently with a better coach, although I think it is up to players to fix the holes in their games.

---

I've not seen any practices, but It is not usually the head coach who works with individual players to help them to learn or improve their individual skills. It is the assistant coaches. And I don't think you can blame Brown's lack of improvement on Fox, as nearly all of his players who have remained healthy have improved individually under the tutelage of this coaching staff. I don't disagree with your assessment, but if you say you like Brown, I don't think I'd enjoy reading what you'd say about a player you don't like. Ben Braun was a successful coach for many years at Cal, compared to some Cal coaches, but I can't think of any player who improved individually under him and his coaching staff. HTP1 said that you usually can tell if a kid can shoot by the 6th grade, which I agree with. There are some players who can improve their shooting, but often that is a talented player learning things in the pros after college like Tyrone and Jalen.

---

Sean Lampley
Joe Shipp
Brian Wethers
Rod Benson
DeVon Hardin

---

I think Sluggo and I and the rest of the previous posters have been talking about improvement in shooting, not improvement in general. Thanks for your input. There have been some, maybe many who improved their shooting under Ben Braun. I always get in trouble when I make broad generalizations, and I was too lazy to check first before flying to the keyboard.

Here are some numbers:

Lampley: 2P% increased from 47% to 53%, 3P% decreased from 26% to 21%, FT% increased from 59% to 74%. Lampley improved, except his threes, which I'd guess were not a focus for him.

Shipp: 2P% went from 60% to 56%, 3P% went from 32% to 35%, FT% flat, about 76%. Shipp's net improvement was minimal, if any.

Wethers: 2P% went from 49-55-54-51% over 4 seasons. 3P% went from 19-44-19-40%. FT% decreased from 70 to 65%. Wethers either had a good season shooting the ball, or a poor one. Hard to say that he improved his shooting at Cal.

Benson: Did not play much in his first year. He played a lot in his 3rd year, and less in his 4th year. His 2P% went from 44-54-47, FT% 50-68-62. Benson also hot and cold years like Wethers, but he made significant improvement in his free throw shooting.

Hardin: In his 3rd season, injured and played only 11 games, so I'll skip that year. 2P% went from 50-51-55%, FT% 39-63-64%. Hardin made slight improvement in field goal shooting, and significant improvement shooting FTs.

---

The problem with merely plucking shooting percentage stats is that it doesn't account for most freshmen not having the green light to shoot unless wide open and defenses focusing on established scorers, not to mention sample sizes. ShanTay Legans was probably the best example who was lights out when wide-open throughout his time at Cal but had to shoot from further and further out as defenses keyed on the slowish and undersized guard.

On a somewhat related note, Brian Wethers' 2-pt percentages were incredible for a guard. That bank shot he used was pure money.

SFCityBear said:

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Civil Bear said:

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Big C said:

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SFCityBear said:

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sluggo said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

---

Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

---

That is one way to put it. But I would say that it was another day at the office for a guy who can't shoot from farther that three feet. He has no floater, no pull up in the lane, no free throw, no 3 point shot, none of the above. And I like Brown! He is so clever, it is like he sees the game differently than other players. I think of Rajon Rondo. But he can't fulfill his potential due to his poor shooting, which is a shame. I will always wonder if things would have turned out differently with a better coach, although I think it is up to players to fix the holes in their games.

---

I've not seen any practices, but It is not usually the head coach who works with individual players to help them to learn or improve their individual skills. It is the assistant coaches. And I don't think you can blame Brown's lack of improvement on Fox, as nearly all of his players who have remained healthy have improved individually under the tutelage of this coaching staff. I don't disagree with your assessment, but if you say you like Brown, I don't think I'd enjoy reading what you'd say about a player you don't like. Ben Braun was a successful coach for many years at Cal, compared to some Cal coaches, but I can't think of any player who improved individually under him and his coaching staff. HTP1 said that you usually can tell if a kid can shoot by the 6th grade, which I agree with. There are some players who can improve their shooting, but often that is a talented player learning things in the pros after college like Tyrone and Jalen.

---

Sean Lampley
Joe Shipp
Brian Wethers
Rod Benson
DeVon Hardin

---

I'd remove Hardin as he woefully never lived up to his potential, but you could certainly replace him with Ubaka and Solomon and RFK and even Erik V. Trying to come up with full 4-year players that stayed healthy under Braun is actually the hard part.

---

I don't disagree with you on Hardin leaving us very disappointed, but if we stick to the original subject of the thread, Joel Brown's shooting, I think Hardin did make slight improvement in shooting percentage, and significant improvement in FT shooting.

Here are numbers I found for your other suggestions:

Ubaka: 2P% 41-40-45-47%, 3P% 26-30-37-36%, FT% 70-65-83-78% Ubaka should definitely be added to the list. I'd add that the guy was money in the bank on the FT line in the last minute of a game, either to win a game or save it.

Solomon Hughes (I assume you meant him, as Richard S played only for Montgomery)
2P%: 52-53-63-59%, FT% 23-37-43-37%. So he improved his FG shooting a decent amount, but his FT shooting was abysmal.

RFK: 2P% 60-58-55-60%, 3P% 45-32-38%, FT% 83-50-78-77 His 2P percentage was flat, his FT% was good but also flat, except for a bad soph season. He only shot 2 three point attempts at a frosh, but after that his 3P% steadily declined. I think his big problem was Braun not recognizing his talent early. I would not say he improved his shooting at Cal, but I was sure glad that Braun did play him a lot for 3 years.

Eric Vierneisel was a big disappointment for some of us, including me. He spoiled us, by making, what was it, 6 or 7 threes in his first game, as I remember? In any case he worked hard to be a good player, and improved, but not much in shooting, IMO. He played very little in his soph season: 2P% 48-67-42-48%, 3P% 33-15-33-30%, FT% 69-88-65-73

---

My list was based on overall skills.

Re EV: I think the number was closer to 3 or maybe 4 made threes in his first exhibition game. I agreed he disappointed after that, but he did eventually go on to lead the team in 3-pt % his Junior year (.388).

stu said:

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calumnus said:

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Not coincidentally,, Cal is 11th in 3 pointers made, 9th in 3pt %. Last in scoring. On the other hand, we are #1 at defending the 3, which is fantastic. Brown is a big part of that.

---

#1 in 3FG% defense is indeed great!

A little off topic:
We're #1 in 3FG% defense at .307, within .008 of #5.
We're #5 in overall FG% defense at .413, within .005 of #4 through #7 but .026 behind #2
If I did the arithmetic right then we're #7 in 2FG% defense at .471, within .007 of #4 through #8 but .057 behind #3 .

We're #2 in defensive REB% at .776, .006 behind #1 and .017 ahead of #4.
We're #12 in opponent TO per game at 9.66, within 0.91 of #11. This is certainly skewed low by our slow pace.

Overall I'd call these defensive numbers well into the upper half of the conference, maybe #3.

I don't want to talk about our offensive numbers.

---

Next year's team looks to be "good defense / bad offense" to even a greater extreme:

STARTERS
Lars
Kuany
Alajiki
Celestine
Brown

OFF THE BENCH
Roberson
Anyanwu
Bowser

Wowsers.

Big C said:

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stu said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Not coincidentally,, Cal is 11th in 3 pointers made, 9th in 3pt %. Last in scoring. On the other hand, we are #1 at defending the 3, which is fantastic. Brown is a big part of that.

---

#1 in 3FG% defense is indeed great!

A little off topic:
We're #1 in 3FG% defense at .307, within .008 of #5.
We're #5 in overall FG% defense at .413, within .005 of #4 through #7 but .026 behind #2
If I did the arithmetic right then we're #7 in 2FG% defense at .471, within .007 of #4 through #8 but .057 behind #3 .

We're #2 in defensive REB% at .776, .006 behind #1 and .017 ahead of #4.
We're #12 in opponent TO per game at 9.66, within 0.91 of #11. This is certainly skewed low by our slow pace.

Overall I'd call these defensive numbers well into the upper half of the conference, maybe #3.

I don't want to talk about our offensive numbers.

---

Next year's team looks to be "good defense / bad offense" to even a greater extreme:

STARTERS
Lars
Kuany
Alajiki
Celestine
Brown

OFF THE BENCH
Roberson
Anyanwu
Bowser

---

Gonzaga is the #1 scoring offense in the country.

Arizona is the #3 scoring offense in the country.

Cal is the number #329 scoring offense in the country and sinking and we will be worse next year.

Going into halftime, down 6, we scored 19 points in the second half and Fox blamed our second half defense for the loss. As if we could hold ASU to 12 points in the half. With just more "effort" on defense we can win games 25-24. If we don't, it is only due to lack of "effort."

calumnus said:

---

Big C said:

---

stu said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Not coincidentally,, Cal is 11th in 3 pointers made, 9th in 3pt %. Last in scoring. On the other hand, we are #1 at defending the 3, which is fantastic. Brown is a big part of that.

---

#1 in 3FG% defense is indeed great!

A little off topic:
We're #1 in 3FG% defense at .307, within .008 of #5.
We're #5 in overall FG% defense at .413, within .005 of #4 through #7 but .026 behind #2
If I did the arithmetic right then we're #7 in 2FG% defense at .471, within .007 of #4 through #8 but .057 behind #3 .

We're #2 in defensive REB% at .776, .006 behind #1 and .017 ahead of #4.
We're #12 in opponent TO per game at 9.66, within 0.91 of #11. This is certainly skewed low by our slow pace.

Overall I'd call these defensive numbers well into the upper half of the conference, maybe #3.

I don't want to talk about our offensive numbers.

---

Next year's team looks to be "good defense / bad offense" to even a greater extreme:

STARTERS
Lars
Kuany
Alajiki
Celestine
Brown

OFF THE BENCH
Roberson
Anyanwu
Bowser

---

Gonzaga is the #1 scoring offense in the country.

Arizona is the #3 scoring offense in the country.

Cal is the number #329 scoring offense in the country and sinking and we will be worse next year.

Going into halftime, down 6, we scored 19 points in the second half and Fox blamed our second half defense for the loss. As if we could hold ASU to 12 points in the half. With just more "effort" on defense we can win games 25-24. If we don't, it is only due to lack of "effort."

---

So cut to the chase: No Final Four next season?

Big C said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Big C said:

---

stu said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Not coincidentally,, Cal is 11th in 3 pointers made, 9th in 3pt %. Last in scoring. On the other hand, we are #1 at defending the 3, which is fantastic. Brown is a big part of that.

---

#1 in 3FG% defense is indeed great!

A little off topic:
We're #1 in 3FG% defense at .307, within .008 of #5.
We're #5 in overall FG% defense at .413, within .005 of #4 through #7 but .026 behind #2
If I did the arithmetic right then we're #7 in 2FG% defense at .471, within .007 of #4 through #8 but .057 behind #3 .

We're #2 in defensive REB% at .776, .006 behind #1 and .017 ahead of #4.
We're #12 in opponent TO per game at 9.66, within 0.91 of #11. This is certainly skewed low by our slow pace.

Overall I'd call these defensive numbers well into the upper half of the conference, maybe #3.

I don't want to talk about our offensive numbers.

---

Next year's team looks to be "good defense / bad offense" to even a greater extreme:

STARTERS
Lars
Kuany
Alajiki
Celestine
Brown

OFF THE BENCH
Roberson
Anyanwu
Bowser

---

Gonzaga is the #1 scoring offense in the country.

Arizona is the #3 scoring offense in the country.

Cal is the number #329 scoring offense in the country and sinking and we will be worse next year.

Going into halftime, down 6, we scored 19 points in the second half and Fox blamed our second half defense for the loss. As if we could hold ASU to 12 points in the half. With just more "effort" on defense we can win games 25-24. If we don't, it is only due to lack of "effort."

---

So cut to the chase: No Final Four next season?

---

It is on the players, if they want it they just need to work harder like coach says.

Civil Bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

drizzlybear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

Does Brown's off the backboard free throw end the debate on whether he has improved? One free throw does not mean anything statistically, but neither does 8 for 12.

---

Ha, I knew wouldn't be able to resist that. Here's what I wrote about it in the game thread:
"And his one free throw was so atrocious that it single-handedly threatens to undermine the appearance of improvement he'd given over the previous several games. Yikes."

Of course, it was after getting knocked senseless by Keefe.

---

That is one way to put it. But I would say that it was another day at the office for a guy who can't shoot from farther that three feet. He has no floater, no pull up in the lane, no free throw, no 3 point shot, none of the above. And I like Brown! He is so clever, it is like he sees the game differently than other players. I think of Rajon Rondo. But he can't fulfill his potential due to his poor shooting, which is a shame. I will always wonder if things would have turned out differently with a better coach, although I think it is up to players to fix the holes in their games.

---

I've not seen any practices, but It is not usually the head coach who works with individual players to help them to learn or improve their individual skills. It is the assistant coaches. And I don't think you can blame Brown's lack of improvement on Fox, as nearly all of his players who have remained healthy have improved individually under the tutelage of this coaching staff. I don't disagree with your assessment, but if you say you like Brown, I don't think I'd enjoy reading what you'd say about a player you don't like. Ben Braun was a successful coach for many years at Cal, compared to some Cal coaches, but I can't think of any player who improved individually under him and his coaching staff. HTP1 said that you usually can tell if a kid can shoot by the 6th grade, which I agree with. There are some players who can improve their shooting, but often that is a talented player learning things in the pros after college like Tyrone and Jalen.

---

Sean Lampley
Joe Shipp
Brian Wethers
Rod Benson
DeVon Hardin

---

I think Sluggo and I and the rest of the previous posters have been talking about improvement in shooting, not improvement in general. Thanks for your input. There have been some, maybe many who improved their shooting under Ben Braun. I always get in trouble when I make broad generalizations, and I was too lazy to check first before flying to the keyboard.

Here are some numbers:

Lampley: 2P% increased from 47% to 53%, 3P% decreased from 26% to 21%, FT% increased from 59% to 74%. Lampley improved, except his threes, which I'd guess were not a focus for him.

Shipp: 2P% went from 60% to 56%, 3P% went from 32% to 35%, FT% flat, about 76%. Shipp's net improvement was minimal, if any.

Wethers: 2P% went from 49-55-54-51% over 4 seasons. 3P% went from 19-44-19-40%. FT% decreased from 70 to 65%. Wethers either had a good season shooting the ball, or a poor one. Hard to say that he improved his shooting at Cal.

Benson: Did not play much in his first year. He played a lot in his 3rd year, and less in his 4th year. His 2P% went from 44-54-47, FT% 50-68-62. Benson also hot and cold years like Wethers, but he made significant improvement in his free throw shooting.

Hardin: In his 3rd season, injured and played only 11 games, so I'll skip that year. 2P% went from 50-51-55%, FT% 39-63-64%. Hardin made slight improvement in field goal shooting, and significant improvement shooting FTs.

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The problem with merely plucking shooting percentage stats is that it doesn't account for most freshmen not having the green light to shoot unless wide open and defenses focusing on established scorers, not to mention sample sizes. ShanTay Legans was probably the best example who was lights out when wide-open throughout his time at Cal but had to shoot from further and further out as defenses keyed on the slowish and undersized guard.

On a somewhat related note, Brian Wethers' 2-pt percentages were incredible for a guard. That bank shot he used was pure money.

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Good points. Whatever happened to the bank shot? Just about gone. Nowadays every kid is practicing little other than three point shots, and if it goes in off the glass, it was likely not planned to go in that way.

Big C said:

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stu said:

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calumnus said:

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Not coincidentally,, Cal is 11th in 3 pointers made, 9th in 3pt %. Last in scoring. On the other hand, we are #1 at defending the 3, which is fantastic. Brown is a big part of that.

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#1 in 3FG% defense is indeed great!

A little off topic:
We're #1 in 3FG% defense at .307, within .008 of #5.
We're #5 in overall FG% defense at .413, within .005 of #4 through #7 but .026 behind #2
If I did the arithmetic right then we're #7 in 2FG% defense at .471, within .007 of #4 through #8 but .057 behind #3 .

We're #2 in defensive REB% at .776, .006 behind #1 and .017 ahead of #4.
We're #12 in opponent TO per game at 9.66, within 0.91 of #11. This is certainly skewed low by our slow pace.

Overall I'd call these defensive numbers well into the upper half of the conference, maybe #3.

I don't want to talk about our offensive numbers.

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Next year's team looks to be "good defense / bad offense" to even a greater extreme:

STARTERS
Lars
Kuany
Alajiki
Celestine
Brown

OFF THE BENCH
Roberson
Anyanwu
Bowser

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That is only 8 players. What about the other 5 scholarships we are handing out? Do they not have a chance to play?

SFCityBear said:

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... Whatever happened to the bank shot? Just about gone. Nowadays every kid is practicing little other than three point shots, and if it goes in off the glass, it was likely not planned to go in that way.

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I see a lot of short range bank shots but none from farther out.

SFCityBear said:

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Big C said:

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stu said:

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calumnus said:

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Not coincidentally,, Cal is 11th in 3 pointers made, 9th in 3pt %. Last in scoring. On the other hand, we are #1 at defending the 3, which is fantastic. Brown is a big part of that.

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#1 in 3FG% defense is indeed great!

A little off topic:
We're #1 in 3FG% defense at .307, within .008 of #5.
We're #5 in overall FG% defense at .413, within .005 of #4 through #7 but .026 behind #2
If I did the arithmetic right then we're #7 in 2FG% defense at .471, within .007 of #4 through #8 but .057 behind #3 .

We're #2 in defensive REB% at .776, .006 behind #1 and .017 ahead of #4.
We're #12 in opponent TO per game at 9.66, within 0.91 of #11. This is certainly skewed low by our slow pace.

Overall I'd call these defensive numbers well into the upper half of the conference, maybe #3.

I don't want to talk about our offensive numbers.

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Next year's team looks to be "good defense / bad offense" to even a greater extreme:

STARTERS
Lars
Kuany
Alajiki
Celestine
Brown

OFF THE BENCH
Roberson
Anyanwu
Bowser

---

That is only 8 players. What about the other 5 scholarships we are handing out? Do they not have a chance to play?

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Of course. I was just throwing out a good-looking defensive rotation. I'm hoping the guys I left out, Hyder, Thorpe, Klonaras, Newell and Okafor each have great seasons!