diva1 said:
When he was initially hired I assumed he had some West Coast recruiting contacts since he did reasonably well at Reno.
The WSU coach has brought in some interesting recruits and I believe he was hired same year as Fox.
Thisdiva1 said:
with Cal's worldwide reputation we should be a magnet for international players. Combine that with a connection to the Oakland Soldiers and Cal should have a decent pipeline.
Fox seems like a decent x's and o's guy with zero recruiting acumen
Agreed and Prolithic Prep is very close as well and we just have K2 to show for recruiting from that program. No excuse not to get play 1-2 players Every class from those elite programs that are within 30 minutes of Cal.socaltownie said:Thisdiva1 said:
with Cal's worldwide reputation we should be a magnet for international players. Combine that with a connection to the Oakland Soldiers and Cal should have a decent pipeline.
Fox seems like a decent x's and o's guy with zero recruiting acumen
1) We are located in the East Bay. That should create an opportunity for 1-2 players every 4 to 5 years that are absolute difference makers and the kind of kids (pun intended) that get you to the second weekend if things break right.
2) We have one of the most diverse schools in the entire Pac-12. Basketball remains a sport with a high percentage of African Americans. There is NO WAY Cal should EVER be outrecruited by OSU, WSU, Washington, Utah and Colorado. Frankly we shouldn't be outrecruited by ASU either.
3) We have a nationally recognized AAU program NEXT DOOR.
4) We have alumni connections that play in the NBA. I am not sure they are embraced by the University and the program but they could and should.
Cal FOOTBALL is frankly a LOT harder to recruit to - in part because the high school programs and participation rates are in free fall. I GET the challenges there. This is NOT the case in hoops.
diva1 said:
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Fox seems like a decent x's and o's guy with zero recruiting acumen
Agreed. It is not as if he is Pete Carril, more like Ben Braun, but a much, much worse recruiter. He seems better than he is because of Wyking Jones.calumnus said:diva1 said:
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Fox seems like a decent x's and o's guy with zero recruiting acumen
Fox's offenses are never good/ efficient. His best is basically letting his best player go one on one. Even his defenses are mediocre, focused more on playing "hard" than smart. He specialty is slowing down the game and hoping to eek out a victory against more talented teams. We are lucky there is a shot clock we would be treated to the four corners.
Well said, Sluggo. I was OK with FOX hire (not preferred, but I heard from a few coaches that Cal job was toxic when Cuonzo left) because it meant Jones (and Williams and Dierks) were gone. I still think we could have done much better, but was ready to give him the chance to improve.sluggo said:Agreed. It is not as if he is Pete Carril, more like Ben Braun, but a much, much worse recruiter. He seems better than he is because of Wyking Jones.calumnus said:diva1 said:
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Fox seems like a decent x's and o's guy with zero recruiting acumen
Fox's offenses are never good/ efficient. His best is basically letting his best player go one on one. Even his defenses are mediocre, focused more on playing "hard" than smart. He specialty is slowing down the game and hoping to eek out a victory against more talented teams. We are lucky there is a shot clock we would be treated to the four corners.
diva1 said:
Fox seems like a decent x's and o's guy with zero recruiting acumen
stu said:
IMHO Fox has them playing good defense. Certainly D comes before X and O.
uh, no01Bear said:stu said:
IMHO Fox has them playing good defense. Certainly D comes before X and O.
I'm not sold in that. He relies on a zone defense. While zone defenses can be solid (see, Boeheim's Syracuse teams), a good Xs and Os coach would know how to exploit the weaknesses in a zone defense. Fox is lucky he doesn't often encounter good coaches in the Pac-12.
stu said:
Can we agree his offense was worse than his defense?
HoopDreams said:uh, no01Bear said:stu said:
IMHO Fox has them playing good defense. Certainly D comes before X and O.
I'm not sold in that. He relies on a zone defense. While zone defenses can be solid (see, Boeheim's Syracuse teams), a good Xs and Os coach would know how to exploit the weaknesses in a zone defense. Fox is lucky he doesn't often encounter good coaches in the Pac-12.
01Bear said:HoopDreams said:uh, no01Bear said:stu said:
IMHO Fox has them playing good defense. Certainly D comes before X and O.
I'm not sold in that. He relies on a zone defense. While zone defenses can be solid (see, Boeheim's Syracuse teams), a good Xs and Os coach would know how to exploit the weaknesses in a zone defense. Fox is lucky he doesn't often encounter good coaches in the Pac-12.
Maybe I'm misremembering. But I could've sworn in the games I watched he utilized a zone D for most of the game.
Last player I remember was Pete Padgett playing for his father. Does Nevada still have a basketball team?bearister said:
Name the best player in UNR history…and no cheating. I have no idea why I know this. I think I dug the facial hair.
Civil Bear said:01Bear said:HoopDreams said:uh, no01Bear said:stu said:
IMHO Fox has them playing good defense. Certainly D comes before X and O.
I'm not sold in that. He relies on a zone defense. While zone defenses can be solid (see, Boeheim's Syracuse teams), a good Xs and Os coach would know how to exploit the weaknesses in a zone defense. Fox is lucky he doesn't often encounter good coaches in the Pac-12.
Maybe I'm misremembering. But I could've sworn in the games I watched he utilized a zone D for most of the game.
A lot of switching, but not much zone.
bearister said:
Name the best player in UNR history…and no cheating. I have no idea why I know this. I think I dug the facial hair.
He initially did want the job and did very well in the interview. - then according to his friend (former college roommate) and mutually friend of mine, He spent more time understanding the admission hurdles and other hurdles that he ultimately felt, would make it harder than anticipated to win at Cal. So per my friend, He pulled out of the interview process before a decision was made. Totally agree, Musselman is a relentless force and a very good recruiter. He would have been a very good choice had it worked out.Marty said:
Like most Cal fans, I'm underwhelmed by all aspects of the Mark Fox era. His teams are incredibly boring. Every time I see what Eric Musselman is doing at Arkansas, I'm even less enthusiastic about Fox. According to the media reports I recall reading when Cal was going through the hiring process to replace Jones, Musselman interviewed well and stated to numerous contacts that he wanted the job. Oh, well...
bearister said:bearister said:
Name the best player in UNR history…and no cheating. I have no idea why I know this. I think I dug the facial hair.
Ok, since no one wants to play with me, I'll play with myself (no pun intended):
Edgar Jones
socaltownie said:Thisdiva1 said:
with Cal's worldwide reputation we should be a magnet for international players. Combine that with a connection to the Oakland Soldiers and Cal should have a decent pipeline.
Fox seems like a decent x's and o's guy with zero recruiting acumen
1) We are located in the East Bay. That should create an opportunity for 1-2 players every 4 to 5 years that are absolute difference makers and the kind of kids (pun intended) that get you to the second weekend if things break right.
2) We have one of the most diverse schools in the entire Pac-12. Basketball remains a sport with a high percentage of African Americans. There is NO WAY Cal should EVER be outrecruited by OSU, WSU, Washington, Utah and Colorado. Frankly we shouldn't be outrecruited by ASU either.
3) We have a nationally recognized AAU program NEXT DOOR.
4) We have alumni connections that play in the NBA. I am not sure they are embraced by the University and the program but they could and should.
Cal FOOTBALL is frankly a LOT harder to recruit to - in part because the high school programs and participation rates are in free fall. I GET the challenges there. This is NOT the case in hoops.
I agree with all you said. There is no good way to compare eras, the players or the coaches, as the game changes so much from era to era, or decade to decade, and so on. I was only trying to answer the question posed by the OP, by providing the facts of the value and number of good players of the day that Fox did recruit.stu said:
I'd say even Wyking Jones, IMHO the worst basketball coach in Cal history, recruited significantly better than Fox has so far at Cal. And that was in recent times, not long ago like Fox at Nevada.
I want a coach who can bring our program back from the abyss. That's not an ability Fox has ever demonstrated.
That's fine. I'm pretty unhappy now and I'm having difficulty being an unbiased observer.SFCityBear said:I agree with all you said. There is no good way to compare eras, the players or the coaches, as the game changes so much from era to era, or decade to decade, and so on. I was only trying to answer the question posed by the OP, by providing the facts of the value and number of good players of the day that Fox did recruit.stu said:
I'd say even Wyking Jones, IMHO the worst basketball coach in Cal history, recruited significantly better than Fox has so far at Cal. And that was in recent times, not long ago like Fox at Nevada.
I want a coach who can bring our program back from the abyss. That's not an ability Fox has ever demonstrated.
There is almost NOTHING in your post that is true.calumnus said:diva1 said:
When he was initially hired I assumed he had some West Coast recruiting contacts since he did reasonably well at Reno.
The WSU coach has brought in some interesting recruits and I believe he was hired same year as Fox.
He was an assistant to Trent Johnson who recruited nationally and very well. When Johnson moved up Fox was promoted and retained a great freshman class. His best two recruits were from Reno. He never landed a player from California,rare for a Nevada coach. He was very successful his first three years making the NCAA with the talented team he inherited, then CBI his last two before getting the Georgia job.
He is a lousy recruiter. He is overrated as a Xs and Os guy. He plays a boring style. He is not a likeabk person. He screams at the kids and at the refs. He is great at making excuses…
I still think the problem is more with Cal than Fox. We haven't had good recruiting since Ben Braun. Cuonzo was Brown and Rabb and that was about it. He had Brown hooked when he was still very young, and it was Rabb's mom, not Cuonzo who got Rabb signed for Cal, all IMO. I think if you want great players and a steady stream of them (which is essential to replace all the one-and-dones and the transfers), than coach K or Calipari wouldn't make a great difference if he were the coach at Cal. Cal has to let a couple of players who don't qualify academically in maybe not every year but once every two or three years, the way things are now. Cal is a tough sell to recruits, even though it shouldn't be.stu said:That's fine. I'm pretty unhappy now and I'm having difficulty being an unbiased observer.SFCityBear said:I agree with all you said. There is no good way to compare eras, the players or the coaches, as the game changes so much from era to era, or decade to decade, and so on. I was only trying to answer the question posed by the OP, by providing the facts of the value and number of good players of the day that Fox did recruit.stu said:
I'd say even Wyking Jones, IMHO the worst basketball coach in Cal history, recruited significantly better than Fox has so far at Cal. And that was in recent times, not long ago like Fox at Nevada.
I want a coach who can bring our program back from the abyss. That's not an ability Fox has ever demonstrated.
Quote:
Boring style? Who cares? I'd rather watch a boring team win most games than watch an exciting team lose most games.
SFCityBear said:There is almost NOTHING in your post that is true.calumnus said:diva1 said:
When he was initially hired I assumed he had some West Coast recruiting contacts since he did reasonably well at Reno.
The WSU coach has brought in some interesting recruits and I believe he was hired same year as Fox.
He was an assistant to Trent Johnson who recruited nationally and very well. When Johnson moved up Fox was promoted and retained a great freshman class. His best two recruits were from Reno. He never landed a player from California,rare for a Nevada coach. He was very successful his first three years making the NCAA with the talented team he inherited, then CBI his last two before getting the Georgia job.
He is a lousy recruiter. He is overrated as a Xs and Os guy. He plays a boring style. He is not a likeabk person. He screams at the kids and at the refs. He is great at making excuses…
As a head coach getting credit for his and his assistants' signed recruits, Fox did better at Nevada than Johnson did. Trent Johnson did recruit nationally, but not very well. He focused on west coast players, and didn't land a player east of Reno until his 4th year as coach, when he got transfer Todd Okeson from Kansas. In Johnson's final year, he landed 4 recruits from the east of Reno, transfer Jermaine Washington of South Carolina, Seth Taylor from Texas, Dean Browne from NY, and Nick Fazekas from Colorado. It was Fox who discovered and recruited Fazekas for Johnson, who gave Fox the credit. Fazekas would become a consensus All-American and play 4 years in the NBA. And it was under Fox, that Nevada's recruiting focus went much more national.
Fox was not just "promoted". When Johnson announced his departure, Nevada considered Fox and other candidates for the head job. Fazekas led all the players and argued hard with the Nevada Admin to retain Fox. They wanted to run the same plays, the same practices, play the same way that Johnson and Fox had been coaching them. Only then did the Admin agree to "promote" Fox.
Johnson's "great" freshman class was supposed to be this: Mo Charlo, David Ellis, Kevyn Green, and Lyndale Burleson. Charlo was the only one who made good at Nevada, starting for 2 years, averaging 10pts, 5 rebs, 2 assists. Ellis, a 7-1 center, played 4 years, averaging 3pts and 2 rebs. Burleson did not show up at Nevada until the 2006 season, averaged 18 minutes, 2 points and 2 assists over 4 years. Kevyn Green did not ever arrive at Nevada, but instead showed up a couple years later, playing for Southeast Louisiana, where he averaged 14 points for 3 seasons.
Nick Fazekas from Colorado, the player Fox recruited for Johnson, was the best recruit Fox ever signed. 4 years, 4 championships, 2nd team consensus All-American. In my mind, the 2nd best recruit Fox landed was Ramon Sessions from South Carolina, because Fox took over a team from Johnson that had lost its best player, Kirk Snyder, to the NBA, and lost two other starters who graduated. Fox had only one scholarship available. He needed to find a point guard, or this team would go in the tank, and Sessions was it. He was an outstanding performer for Nevada for 3 years, and then left for the NBA where he played 11 years. You could make a case for Reno's Luke Babbitt, the highest rated recruit that Nevada ever signed up to that point. He turned out to be a very good college player, but even though he hung around the NBA for 8 seasons, he was not really effective there. Armon Johnson of Reno was a good player, but his case for one of the two best recruits by Fox is not as good as Babbitt's.
"He never landed a player from California,rare for a Nevada coach"
You neglected to mention DeMarshay Johnson of Oakland, California, signed by Fox in 2005, and who played 2 years at Nevada, averaging 6 pts, and 4 rebs.
The "talented team" Fox inherited was a team that had lost three starters from the sweet 16 team of 2004. The starters he inherited were Fazekas, who would play 3 seasons, and Pinkney, who would play one season and graduate. Out of the 8-man rotation, 4 had graduated, and the best player, Snyder, had left for the NBA. The 6th man, promising Marcelus Kemp, had to sit out Fox's first season, perhaps with an injury or maybe it was academics. The 7th man, Jermaine Washington, became a starter, played one year, and graduated, along with Pinkney. The incoming transfer, Mo Charlo, became a starter as did a soph who played little as a frosh, Kyle Shiloh, a defensive specialist. He ended up starting for 3 years for Fox. After Fox's second season, Charlo graduated.
"He is a lousy recruiter. He is overrated as a Xs and Os guy. He plays a boring style. He is not a likeabk person. He screams at the kids and at the refs. He is great at making excuses…"
Fox hasn't recruited well at Cal. His recruiting at Nevada was pretty good, and that is without knowing how many recruits he was responsible for landing or at least influenced the process for Trent Johnson when he was Johnson's assistant. Nevada's entrance requirements are far easier than Cal's. But you don't sign a future consensus AA and 4 future NBA players without being an effective recruiter, do you? I don't know who rates coaches for their X and O chops. I never heard this. Boring style? Who cares? I'd rather watch a boring team win most games than watch an exciting team lose most games. He's not a likeable person? Says who? You? Ask his players. The Nevada players liked him so much they lobbied hard to get him promoted to head coach. The Cal players play very hard for him most nights, and they obviously seem to like him. He screams at people? Who cares, as long as he gets the job done? Basketball is a rough and tumble sport, it is not tea dancing. Sometimes to get a mule's attention, you have to hit it over the head with a 2x4. I wouldn't know about the excuses, nor do I care.
You have mounted a campaign of 3 years of repetitive posts to try and convince us of how bad a coach and a recruiter Fox is. This particular post shows you are willing to go over the top and state falsehoods, in a further attempt at this man and his reputation. Why are you going to such lengths to debase the character of this coach? Do you expect to convince fans to leave, or convince the AD to fire Fox, or get players to defect? Why not let him sink or swim, based on his record at Cal? You have made so many false statements about Fox, especially his time at Nevada, that it almost makes me want to delve into all the derogatory statements you made about Fox's career at Georgia, and see whether there is any truth at all in them. I honestly don't have the time, as Fox will likely get fired anyway.
