Jaylen Brown on why we lost to Hawaii

5,914 Views | 66 Replies | Last: 10 mo ago by bearister
eastcoastcal
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https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!
BeachedBear
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eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!
Yes. That was one of many excuses discussed at the time. But this is a story that impacts so many more athletes than just Jaylen. It is one of the popular differentiators that Cal does not provide the same 'allowances' to athletes that some other schools do.

However, all of that is anecdotal. Back in my day (early 80's), a friend of mine was on the Men's swim team and complained that he didn't get the special treatment that some of the football and basketball players did. When pressed for details, it devolved into general complaining. He was also surprised at the amount of reading, papers and problem sets that a general student such as me had anyway. (Note - he grew up as a 'stud' athlete and always thought he was special anyway
CalLifer
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eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!
This was on top of Tyrone Wallace and Jabari Bird being injured the week of the game and the whole Yann Hufnagel sexual harassment fallout that happened right then. And people here still blame Cuonzo for that loss.
KoreAmBear
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No doubt Jaylen is an extremely smart and a great rep for Cal. I'm very proud of how his career has progressed and just how flat out impressive he is off the court too.

However, by the end of his only season at Cal, he was not playing very well. I think he tried to do too much and was a charge waiting to happen. And the reason why we lost was because we had three things going on that week: the harassment allegations with Yanni, Ty's injury and Jabari's injury. Such is Cal.
CalLifer
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BeachedBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!
Yes. That was one of many excuses discussed at the time. But this is a story that impacts so many more athletes than just Jaylen. It is one of the popular differentiators that Cal does not provide the same 'allowances' to athletes that some other schools do.

However, all of that is anecdotal. Back in my day (early 80's), a friend of mine was on the Men's swim team and complained that he didn't get the special treatment that some of the football and basketball players did. When pressed for details, it devolved into general complaining. He was also surprised at the amount of reading, papers and problem sets that a general student such as me had anyway. (Note - he grew up as a 'stud' athlete and always thought he was special anyway
I had never heard this as an excuse (and I'm a pretty regular board reader). It sure seems like one more hurdle to overcome that game along with the other issues surounding the team at that time.
KoreAmBear
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CalLifer said:

eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!
This was on top of Tyrone Wallace and Jabari Bird being injured the week of the game and the whole Yann Hufnagel sexual harassment fallout that happened right then. And people here still blame Cuonzo for that loss.
I guess we figured we still had two Mickey D AAs in Ivan and Jaylen along with good players like Mathews. But that's a whole lot crap to overcome in a week.
CalLifer
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KoreAmBear said:

CalLifer said:

eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!
This was on top of Tyrone Wallace and Jabari Bird being injured the week of the game and the whole Yann Hufnagel sexual harassment fallout that happened right then. And people here still blame Cuonzo for that loss.
I guess we figured we still had two Mickey D AAs in Ivan and Jaylen along with good players like Mathews. But that's a whole lot crap to overcome in a week.
And don't forget that both of those McD AAs were true freshman, and we were unfortunately not a super-deep team, and our two seniors were the ones we lost. I'm not sure that coach K would have won that game under those circumstances.
eastcoastcal
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I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
SFCityBear
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eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Nah, been there, done that.

On the other hand, if he does return, who do I get in touch with, so I can bid on the team's bottled water contract?
SFCityBear
CalLifer
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eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
I think it's split pretty evenly between people who can't stand him and people who understand his limitations but know that he is a good coach (especially defensively) who recruits well and who has had success at Cal. If I trusted the AD to find a good young coach who has the potential for success, I'd probably prefer that coach to Cuonzo, but if the AD is going to shirk their responsibilities and hire another Fox, I'd much prefer Cuonzo to that (and I see the latter as more likely).
BC Calfan
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I think the better question is: if Fox were fired, would you rather have Knowlton select the next coach or take Cuonzo?

That's a tough call. I'd probably take Cuonzo. Have zero faith Knowlton would make a smart hire.
HoopDreams
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Very candid remarks from Jaylen

Cool



eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!

Big C
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eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?

I was (still am, I guess) something of a Cuonzo Martin fan, but you can't go home again.
Big C
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eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!

If anybody doesn't want to click on the link, he says he had to finish a 35 page paper for the graduate class he was taking, the night before the Hawaii game.

I don't know if that might have been a factor in the game, but I know I can think of a bunch of ways that Jaylen Brown can help Cal Basketball, but relating a story like that is not one of them.

Just as an example of how he could help, we can't help but notice that Fox has recently come out from hiding in his den and is posing for pics on social media with people like J-Kidd and Steve Kerr, so...
Civil Bear
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CalLifer said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
I think it's split pretty evenly between people who can't stand him and people who understand his limitations but know that he is a good coach (especially defensively) who recruits well and who has had success at Cal. If I trusted the AD to find a good young coach who has the potential for success, I'd probably prefer that coach to Cuonzo, but if the AD is going to shirk their responsibilities and hire another Fox, I'd much prefer Cuonzo to that (and I see the latter as more likely).
Martin is a mediocre coach with a resume quite similar but even weaker than Fox's (less NCAA tourney appearances, same number of tourney wins, fewer conference championships, fewer finishes in the AP top 25, and a lower overall winning percentage even taking into account Fox's years at Cal). If not for the exception of two stellar recruiting classes in his 14-year career (one due to hiring the recruits' dad), Martin's record would be pretty pathetic.

Martin now has the same number of seasons under his belt that Fox had when he came to Cal. The fact that some would still want him back proves he is however the better con man.
Chapman_is_Gone
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oh snap
TheFiatLux
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Big C said:

eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!

If anybody doesn't want to click on the link, he says he had to finish a 35 page paper for the graduate class he was taking, the night before the Hawaii game.

I don't know if that might have been a factor in the game, but I know I can think of a bunch of ways that Jaylen Brown can help Cal Basketball, but relating a story like that is not one of them.

Just as an example of how he could help, we can't help but notice that Fox has recently come out from hiding in his den and is posing for pics on social media with people like J-Kidd and Steve Kerr, so...
That was pretty lousy of the professor to spring a surprise 35-page paper on the class...

oski003
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Big C said:

eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!

If anybody doesn't want to click on the link, he says he had to finish a 35 page paper for the graduate class he was taking, the night before the Hawaii game.

I don't know if that might have been a factor in the game, but I know I can think of a bunch of ways that Jaylen Brown can help Cal Basketball, but relating a story like that is not one of them.

Just as an example of how he could help, we can't help but notice that Fox has recently come out from hiding in his den and is posing for pics on social media with people like J-Kidd and Steve Kerr, so...


Relating a story like that would actually help if it would actually influence the school to make some allowances to athletes. We are competing with schools that don't care at all about academic integrity when it comes to athletics.
calumnus
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Civil Bear said:

CalLifer said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
I think it's split pretty evenly between people who can't stand him and people who understand his limitations but know that he is a good coach (especially defensively) who recruits well and who has had success at Cal. If I trusted the AD to find a good young coach who has the potential for success, I'd probably prefer that coach to Cuonzo, but if the AD is going to shirk their responsibilities and hire another Fox, I'd much prefer Cuonzo to that (and I see the latter as more likely).
Martin is a mediocre coach with a resume quite similar but even weaker than Fox's (less NCAA tourney appearances, same number of tourney wins, fewer conference championships, fewer finishes in the AP top 25, and a lower overall winning percentage even taking into account Fox's years at Cal). If not for the exception of two stellar recruiting classes in his 14-year career (one due to hiring the recruits' dad), Martin's record would be pretty pathetic.

Martin now has the same number of seasons under his belt that Fox had when he came to Cal. The fact that some would still want him back proves he is however the better con man.


Not weaker than Fox, especially if you discount their early work in the MVC and MWC.

If you look at just their work in the SEC and PAC-12:

Fox 12 years, 198-191 (.509) 2 NCAA appearances zero wins.

Martin 11 years 203-157 (.564) 4 NCAA appearances 1 Sweet 16.

But I agree with your bottom line, I don't want either coach. Both are mediocre at this point (well that is generous for Fox). Both run boring defense-first mid-western slow down styles. Martin is Fox, with much better recruiting. Both are well past their prime.

We hired Martin coming days after a Sweet 16 with Tennessee which was a huge coup. He was still an up and coming coach, considered one of the best in the country. Now he is more like Ben Braun when we fired him. Fox was an up and comer when Georgia hired him. 12 years later he is not.

We need to hire the next up and comer, or if lucky a currently great coach, not another washed up retread.
KoreAmBear
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CalLifer said:

KoreAmBear said:

CalLifer said:

eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!
This was on top of Tyrone Wallace and Jabari Bird being injured the week of the game and the whole Yann Hufnagel sexual harassment fallout that happened right then. And people here still blame Cuonzo for that loss.
I guess we figured we still had two Mickey D AAs in Ivan and Jaylen along with good players like Mathews. But that's a whole lot crap to overcome in a week.
And don't forget that both of those McD AAs were true freshman, and we were unfortunately not a super-deep team, and our two seniors were the ones we lost. I'm not sure that coach K would have won that game under those circumstances.
He probably would have. He's Coach K.
KoreAmBear
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eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
SFCityBear
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KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.

Would Chancellor Christ be willing to make a deal with Coach Fox to allow him to offer a scholarship to one or two players every other year who do not meet the bare minimum standards for admission to Cal? Coach K had a deal like that at Duke.

Would Cal be willing to give Fox an airplane to fly around the country to visit recruits? Coach K had one of those. He could finish coaching a game on the east coast, and immediately hop his jet to fly off to see a recruit playing in a game in another time zone, and fly back home just as fast.

We've had some top recruits not too long ago. Jabari Bird and Ivan Rabb were both Bay Area products, and both had strong family ties to Cal, Bird with his father being a former star at Cal, and Rabb with a mother who really wanted young Ivan to go to Cal. The 3rd big time recruit was Jaylen Brown, and Cuonzo had built a relationship with Jaylen, almost since Jaylen was in diapers. These days, there all almost no top recruits in Northern California, with the exception of all the kids up at that skills academy in the North Bay from all over the country. Plus the kid from O'Dowd who turned pro out of high school. When is the last time a player from NorCal was named Mr Basketball for the State of California? It was Ivan Rabb, that's who. The point is in the past we got most of our talent from the Bay Area and from SoCal. Today, if we don't recruit SoCal well, we are toast, because there are so few good high school players around here.
SFCityBear
bearister
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Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
calumnus
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SFCityBear said:

KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.

Would Chancellor Christ be willing to make a deal with Coach Fox to allow him to offer a scholarship to one or two players every other year who do not meet the bare minimum standards for admission to Cal? Coach K had a deal like that at Duke.

Would Cal be willing to give Fox an airplane to fly around the country to visit recruits? Coach K had one of those. He could finish coaching a game on the east coast, and immediately hop his jet to fly off to see a recruit playing in a game in another time zone, and fly back home just as fast.

We've had some top recruits not too long ago. Jabari Bird and Ivan Rabb were both Bay Area products, and both had strong family ties to Cal, Bird with his father being a former star at Cal, and Rabb with a mother who really wanted young Ivan to go to Cal. The 3rd big time recruit was Jaylen Brown, and Cuonzo had built a relationship with Jaylen, almost since Jaylen was in diapers. These days, there all almost no top recruits in Northern California, with the exception of all the kids up at that skills academy in the North Bay from all over the country. Plus the kid from O'Dowd who turned pro out of high school. When is the last time a player from NorCal was named Mr Basketball for the State of California? It was Ivan Rabb, that's who. The point is in the past we got most of our talent from the Bay Area and from SoCal. Today, if we don't recruit SoCal well, we are toast, because there are so few good high school players around here.


Also Mahaney local, but yes, California needs to recruit Southern California well.
Civil Bear
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SFCityBear said:

KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.


Pretty sure the Fox recruiting comparison is to Martin. With the exception of two recruiting classes, I'm not to confident Martin is any better.
SFCityBear
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calumnus said:

SFCityBear said:

KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.

Would Chancellor Christ be willing to make a deal with Coach Fox to allow him to offer a scholarship to one or two players every other year who do not meet the bare minimum standards for admission to Cal? Coach K had a deal like that at Duke.

Would Cal be willing to give Fox an airplane to fly around the country to visit recruits? Coach K had one of those. He could finish coaching a game on the east coast, and immediately hop his jet to fly off to see a recruit playing in a game in another time zone, and fly back home just as fast.

We've had some top recruits not too long ago. Jabari Bird and Ivan Rabb were both Bay Area products, and both had strong family ties to Cal, Bird with his father being a former star at Cal, and Rabb with a mother who really wanted young Ivan to go to Cal. The 3rd big time recruit was Jaylen Brown, and Cuonzo had built a relationship with Jaylen, almost since Jaylen was in diapers. These days, there all almost no top recruits in Northern California, with the exception of all the kids up at that skills academy in the North Bay from all over the country. Plus the kid from O'Dowd who turned pro out of high school. When is the last time a player from NorCal was named Mr Basketball for the State of California? It was Ivan Rabb, that's who. The point is in the past we got most of our talent from the Bay Area and from SoCal. Today, if we don't recruit SoCal well, we are toast, because there are so few good high school players around here.


Also Mahaney local, but yes, California needs to recruit Southern California well.
I know Helltopay1 had him on his short list. Was he rated that highly? We'll find out how good he is in the next year or two. And there is always the portal.
SFCityBear
SFCityBear
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Civil Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.


Pretty sure the Fox recruiting comparison is to Martin. With the exception of two recruiting classes, I'm not to confident Martin is any better.
Thanks for pointing that out. I apologize for the brain cramp. With so many good posts to respond to, I got them mixed up.
I agree with you on Cuonzo. I think he recruited for star power, name recognition, players who he had to know would not be around for more than one or two seasons. That was true for Brown, Rabb, and maybe Moore. Domingo had the recruit chops once, but was a bust for Georgetown. I think recruiting for star power is not a good fit for Cal, especially now, with the program at the bottom of the conference. The best way to build a program from the bottom up, IMO, is to go after good players who are not NBA-ready, and perhaps not future NBA talent, but rather are 3 and 4 star players who will stay at Cal for 3 or 4 years. The program I like is Virginia, and they started in this fashion, with 3 and 4 star recruits, and with coaching the results just got better and better.

What do you think about Tony Bennett's apparent recruiting strategy at Virginia? Bennett took over a program in 2009 that had finished in 11th place in the ACC. He inherited a team with four top 100 players (three 4* and one 3*). They improved gradually and made the NCAA in his 3rd season, losing in the 2nd round. Then he lost the 4 players, and had to rebuild. He slowly began landing his own top 100 recruits, and went on to many season of success. In his 5th season, he won the ACC title, with a team which had 3 top 100 players (one 4* and two 3*). The following season, he won the ACC again, with 5 top 100 players (two 4* and three 3*) . The following season, he finished 2nd in the ACC with 3 top 100 players, all 3*. He was doing this with players like London Perrantes, who was not ranked in the top 100 as a recruit. Bennett does it all with primarily 3 and 4 year players, most of whom are not top 100 ranked, or ranked at all.

In 2018 Bennett won the ACC again, this time with three 4* and a 3*. In 2019, he won the ACC and the NCAA title, with five 4* players. In 2021, he won the ACC again with five 4* and a 3*.

Tony Bennett has been the head coach at Virginia for 13 seasons. His teams have won one NCAA title, and have been seeded #1 four times. The have also made an Elite 8, and a Sweet 16, out of 8 appearances in the tournament. He has won the ACC title 5 times. And he did all this with only one bona fide consensus 5* player, Austin Nichols who transferred from Memphis, played one season at Virginia before turning pro. He had two other players who were either 4* or 5* (depending on which recruit rankings you look at): Sylven Landesberg, who Bennett inherited when he was named head coach, and who played one season for Bennett before turning pro, and Kyle Guy, who played 3 years for Bennett, before he turned pro.

The problem with Cuonzo's approach is that it is good for only one season, maybe two at best, before they leave. And one or two injuries, and there goes even your one season. Cuonzo was fortunate that Montgomery had left him with enough very good players to complement his star recruits. But he either had no plan or his plan failed, because he was unable tor bring in more good players to replace the ones who left. Lee was good, and Moore, but that was not much, considering how many players Cal lost. And Cuonzo himself lost Mathews, whom he did not handle well. Duke and Kentucky attract a stable full of one-and-dones year after year. That is not Cal, and likely never will be. I would shoot for the Virginia model for Cal. I'd hire Bennett in a heartbeat, and I'd take a look at any of Bennett's assistants who might be willing to leave Virginia for the Bay Area. Unless Cal shows some real improvement this season, that is.





SFCityBear
calumnus
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SFCityBear said:

calumnus said:

SFCityBear said:

KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.

Would Chancellor Christ be willing to make a deal with Coach Fox to allow him to offer a scholarship to one or two players every other year who do not meet the bare minimum standards for admission to Cal? Coach K had a deal like that at Duke.

Would Cal be willing to give Fox an airplane to fly around the country to visit recruits? Coach K had one of those. He could finish coaching a game on the east coast, and immediately hop his jet to fly off to see a recruit playing in a game in another time zone, and fly back home just as fast.

We've had some top recruits not too long ago. Jabari Bird and Ivan Rabb were both Bay Area products, and both had strong family ties to Cal, Bird with his father being a former star at Cal, and Rabb with a mother who really wanted young Ivan to go to Cal. The 3rd big time recruit was Jaylen Brown, and Cuonzo had built a relationship with Jaylen, almost since Jaylen was in diapers. These days, there all almost no top recruits in Northern California, with the exception of all the kids up at that skills academy in the North Bay from all over the country. Plus the kid from O'Dowd who turned pro out of high school. When is the last time a player from NorCal was named Mr Basketball for the State of California? It was Ivan Rabb, that's who. The point is in the past we got most of our talent from the Bay Area and from SoCal. Today, if we don't recruit SoCal well, we are toast, because there are so few good high school players around here.


Also Mahaney local, but yes, California needs to recruit Southern California well.
I know Helltopay1 had him on his short list. Was he rated that highly? We'll find out how good he is in the next year or two. And there is always the portal.


Mahoney was given 4 stars, though it was not obvious to me in his videos. As you say we will see. Askew was given 4 stars out of high school playing against stronger completion and didn't work out at Kentucky or Texas but has another shot to prove himself at Cal. I am hoping Askew turns himself into more of a scoring combo guard, including adding a 3 point shot. We will see.
eastcoastcal
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SFCityBear said:

Civil Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.


Pretty sure the Fox recruiting comparison is to Martin. With the exception of two recruiting classes, I'm not to confident Martin is any better.
Thanks for pointing that out. I apologize for the brain cramp. With so many good posts to respond to, I got them mixed up.
I agree with you on Cuonzo. I think he recruited for star power, name recognition, players who he had to know would not be around for more than one or two seasons. That was true for Brown, Rabb, and maybe Moore. Domingo had the recruit chops once, but was a bust for Georgetown. I think recruiting for star power is not a good fit for Cal, especially now, with the program at the bottom of the conference. The best way to build a program from the bottom up, IMO, is to go after good players who are not NBA-ready, and perhaps not future NBA talent, but rather are 3 and 4 star players who will stay at Cal for 3 or 4 years. The program I like is Virginia, and they started in this fashion, with 3 and 4 star recruits, and with coaching the results just got better and better.

What do you think about Tony Bennett's apparent recruiting strategy at Virginia? Bennett took over a program in 2009 that had finished in 11th place in the ACC. He inherited a team with four top 100 players (three 4* and one 3*). They improved gradually and made the NCAA in his 3rd season, losing in the 2nd round. Then he lost the 4 players, and had to rebuild. He slowly began landing his own top 100 recruits, and went on to many season of success. In his 5th season, he won the ACC title, with a team which had 3 top 100 players (one 4* and two 3*). The following season, he won the ACC again, with 5 top 100 players (two 4* and three 3*) . The following season, he finished 2nd in the ACC with 3 top 100 players, all 3*. He was doing this with players like London Perrantes, who was not ranked in the top 100 as a recruit. Bennett does it all with primarily 3 and 4 year players, most of whom are not top 100 ranked, or ranked at all.

In 2018 Bennett won the ACC again, this time with three 4* and a 3*. In 2019, he won the ACC and the NCAA title, with five 4* players. In 2021, he won the ACC again with five 4* and a 3*.

Tony Bennett has been the head coach at Virginia for 13 seasons. His teams have won one NCAA title, and have been seeded #1 four times. The have also made an Elite 8, and a Sweet 16, out of 8 appearances in the tournament. He has won the ACC title 5 times. And he did all this with only one bona fide consensus 5* player, Austin Nichols who transferred from Memphis, played one season at Virginia before turning pro. He had two other players who were either 4* or 5* (depending on which recruit rankings you look at): Sylven Landesberg, who Bennett inherited when he was named head coach, and who played one season for Bennett before turning pro, and Kyle Guy, who played 3 years for Bennett, before he turned pro.

The problem with Cuonzo's approach is that it is good for only one season, maybe two at best, before they leave. And one or two injuries, and there goes even your one season. Cuonzo was fortunate that Montgomery had left him with enough very good players to complement his star recruits. But he either had no plan or his plan failed, because he was unable tor bring in more good players to replace the ones who left. Lee was good, and Moore, but that was not much, considering how many players Cal lost. And Cuonzo himself lost Mathews, whom he did not handle well. Duke and Kentucky attract a stable full of one-and-dones year after year. That is not Cal, and likely never will be. I would shoot for the Virginia model for Cal. I'd hire Bennett in a heartbeat, and I'd take a look at any of Bennett's assistants who might be willing to leave Virginia for the Bay Area. Unless Cal shows some real improvement this season, that is.






I agree that the Virginia model would be great to emulate- another note, is that Virginia itself is a pretty good school so he has to deal with admissions as well.

I guess the difference is that he was able to recruit the 4 stars to Virginia consistently (outside 2013 and 2017 he's always had a top-100 player in his recruiting class) whereas at this point we aren't even getting anyone in the top 150. The exception being Bowser. I mean if you look at hyper-recently, we're not even recruiting in the top 200 lol. Even with all the pitfalls of Cal, there's no reason why recruiting should be this poor. Even with the lack of practice facility and new NIL world, we simply can't be that bad that we're only getting no-stars and low 3-stars.

The next coach simply has to do better and bring a much better recruiting staff. Got to win the norcal recruits (the Mahaney's of the world) and have a better socal presence. I also refuse to believe that every good Oakland Soldier & Prolific Prep player doesn't qualify for admission. Cmon. In today's world with grade inflation there MUST be kids from those programs with > 3.0 GPA.

Would love to grab a top Virginia assistant to lead our team. I know some posters have reservations about a non-california based head coach but I think given the similarity of how we'd like to transform our program like Virginia did, I'd be happy to nab a Virginia staff member.
HoopDreams
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Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong
calumnus
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eastcoastcal said:

SFCityBear said:

Civil Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.


Pretty sure the Fox recruiting comparison is to Martin. With the exception of two recruiting classes, I'm not to confident Martin is any better.
Thanks for pointing that out. I apologize for the brain cramp. With so many good posts to respond to, I got them mixed up.
I agree with you on Cuonzo. I think he recruited for star power, name recognition, players who he had to know would not be around for more than one or two seasons. That was true for Brown, Rabb, and maybe Moore. Domingo had the recruit chops once, but was a bust for Georgetown. I think recruiting for star power is not a good fit for Cal, especially now, with the program at the bottom of the conference. The best way to build a program from the bottom up, IMO, is to go after good players who are not NBA-ready, and perhaps not future NBA talent, but rather are 3 and 4 star players who will stay at Cal for 3 or 4 years. The program I like is Virginia, and they started in this fashion, with 3 and 4 star recruits, and with coaching the results just got better and better.

What do you think about Tony Bennett's apparent recruiting strategy at Virginia? Bennett took over a program in 2009 that had finished in 11th place in the ACC. He inherited a team with four top 100 players (three 4* and one 3*). They improved gradually and made the NCAA in his 3rd season, losing in the 2nd round. Then he lost the 4 players, and had to rebuild. He slowly began landing his own top 100 recruits, and went on to many season of success. In his 5th season, he won the ACC title, with a team which had 3 top 100 players (one 4* and two 3*). The following season, he won the ACC again, with 5 top 100 players (two 4* and three 3*) . The following season, he finished 2nd in the ACC with 3 top 100 players, all 3*. He was doing this with players like London Perrantes, who was not ranked in the top 100 as a recruit. Bennett does it all with primarily 3 and 4 year players, most of whom are not top 100 ranked, or ranked at all.

In 2018 Bennett won the ACC again, this time with three 4* and a 3*. In 2019, he won the ACC and the NCAA title, with five 4* players. In 2021, he won the ACC again with five 4* and a 3*.

Tony Bennett has been the head coach at Virginia for 13 seasons. His teams have won one NCAA title, and have been seeded #1 four times. The have also made an Elite 8, and a Sweet 16, out of 8 appearances in the tournament. He has won the ACC title 5 times. And he did all this with only one bona fide consensus 5* player, Austin Nichols who transferred from Memphis, played one season at Virginia before turning pro. He had two other players who were either 4* or 5* (depending on which recruit rankings you look at): Sylven Landesberg, who Bennett inherited when he was named head coach, and who played one season for Bennett before turning pro, and Kyle Guy, who played 3 years for Bennett, before he turned pro.

The problem with Cuonzo's approach is that it is good for only one season, maybe two at best, before they leave. And one or two injuries, and there goes even your one season. Cuonzo was fortunate that Montgomery had left him with enough very good players to complement his star recruits. But he either had no plan or his plan failed, because he was unable tor bring in more good players to replace the ones who left. Lee was good, and Moore, but that was not much, considering how many players Cal lost. And Cuonzo himself lost Mathews, whom he did not handle well. Duke and Kentucky attract a stable full of one-and-dones year after year. That is not Cal, and likely never will be. I would shoot for the Virginia model for Cal. I'd hire Bennett in a heartbeat, and I'd take a look at any of Bennett's assistants who might be willing to leave Virginia for the Bay Area. Unless Cal shows some real improvement this season, that is.






I agree that the Virginia model would be great to emulate- another note, is that Virginia itself is a pretty good school so he has to deal with admissions as well.

I guess the difference is that he was able to recruit the 4 stars to Virginia consistently (outside 2013 and 2017 he's always had a top-100 player in his recruiting class) whereas at this point we aren't even getting anyone in the top 150. The exception being Bowser. I mean if you look at hyper-recently, we're not even recruiting in the top 200 lol. Even with all the pitfalls of Cal, there's no reason why recruiting should be this poor. Even with the lack of practice facility and new NIL world, we simply can't be that bad that we're only getting no-stars and low 3-stars.

The next coach simply has to do better and bring a much better recruiting staff. Got to win the norcal recruits (the Mahaney's of the world) and have a better socal presence. I also refuse to believe that every good Oakland Soldier & Prolific Prep player doesn't qualify for admission. Cmon. In today's world with grade inflation there MUST be kids from those programs with > 3.0 GPA.

Would love to grab a top Virginia assistant to lead our team. I know some posters have reservations about a non-california based head coach but I think given the similarity of how we'd like to transform our program like Virginia did, I'd be happy to nab a Virginia staff member.


Virginia teams have been full of Top 100 players when they were good. However, last year Bennett had "only" two, finished 6th in the ACC and missed the NCAA tournament, narrowly won a couple games in the NIT.

Bennett, plays very slow, but is VERY efficient on offense and defense. I much prefer Few whose Gonzaga teams are also VERY efficient on both ends but play fast. Randy Bennett at St. Mary's is similar (as was Monty and Coach K). However, slow and efficient is MUCH preferable to slow and inefficient (Fox and Martin).

Last year Cal was #330 in 3pt shots made, Virginia was #350. USF was #17.

I just don't think slow down, defense first basketball is ever going to be popular with recruits on the West Coast who grew up rooting for the Lakers and Warriors. Finding a charismatic (young?) coach who can recruit and, along with his staff, can teach, coach and strategize efficient basketball really isn't as tough as people make it out to be.
4thGenCal
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calumnus said:

SFCityBear said:

KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.

Would Chancellor Christ be willing to make a deal with Coach Fox to allow him to offer a scholarship to one or two players every other year who do not meet the bare minimum standards for admission to Cal? Coach K had a deal like that at Duke.

Would Cal be willing to give Fox an airplane to fly around the country to visit recruits? Coach K had one of those. He could finish coaching a game on the east coast, and immediately hop his jet to fly off to see a recruit playing in a game in another time zone, and fly back home just as fast.

We've had some top recruits not too long ago. Jabari Bird and Ivan Rabb were both Bay Area products, and both had strong family ties to Cal, Bird with his father being a former star at Cal, and Rabb with a mother who really wanted young Ivan to go to Cal. The 3rd big time recruit was Jaylen Brown, and Cuonzo had built a relationship with Jaylen, almost since Jaylen was in diapers. These days, there all almost no top recruits in Northern California, with the exception of all the kids up at that skills academy in the North Bay from all over the country. Plus the kid from O'Dowd who turned pro out of high school. When is the last time a player from NorCal was named Mr Basketball for the State of California? It was Ivan Rabb, that's who. The point is in the past we got most of our talent from the Bay Area and from SoCal. Today, if we don't recruit SoCal well, we are toast, because there are so few good high school players around here.


Also Mahaney local, but yes, California needs to recruit Southern California well.
Yes losing Mahoney is a big loss - will be fun to watch him live and also root for the local player. He needs to put on 15 lbs, but he has a good stoke, very good handles, and excellent court vision.
HoopDreams
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calumnus said:

eastcoastcal said:

SFCityBear said:

Civil Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.


Pretty sure the Fox recruiting comparison is to Martin. With the exception of two recruiting classes, I'm not to confident Martin is any better.
Thanks for pointing that out. I apologize for the brain cramp. With so many good posts to respond to, I got them mixed up.
I agree with you on Cuonzo. I think he recruited for star power, name recognition, players who he had to know would not be around for more than one or two seasons. That was true for Brown, Rabb, and maybe Moore. Domingo had the recruit chops once, but was a bust for Georgetown. I think recruiting for star power is not a good fit for Cal, especially now, with the program at the bottom of the conference. The best way to build a program from the bottom up, IMO, is to go after good players who are not NBA-ready, and perhaps not future NBA talent, but rather are 3 and 4 star players who will stay at Cal for 3 or 4 years. The program I like is Virginia, and they started in this fashion, with 3 and 4 star recruits, and with coaching the results just got better and better.

What do you think about Tony Bennett's apparent recruiting strategy at Virginia? Bennett took over a program in 2009 that had finished in 11th place in the ACC. He inherited a team with four top 100 players (three 4* and one 3*). They improved gradually and made the NCAA in his 3rd season, losing in the 2nd round. Then he lost the 4 players, and had to rebuild. He slowly began landing his own top 100 recruits, and went on to many season of success. In his 5th season, he won the ACC title, with a team which had 3 top 100 players (one 4* and two 3*). The following season, he won the ACC again, with 5 top 100 players (two 4* and three 3*) . The following season, he finished 2nd in the ACC with 3 top 100 players, all 3*. He was doing this with players like London Perrantes, who was not ranked in the top 100 as a recruit. Bennett does it all with primarily 3 and 4 year players, most of whom are not top 100 ranked, or ranked at all.

In 2018 Bennett won the ACC again, this time with three 4* and a 3*. In 2019, he won the ACC and the NCAA title, with five 4* players. In 2021, he won the ACC again with five 4* and a 3*.

Tony Bennett has been the head coach at Virginia for 13 seasons. His teams have won one NCAA title, and have been seeded #1 four times. The have also made an Elite 8, and a Sweet 16, out of 8 appearances in the tournament. He has won the ACC title 5 times. And he did all this with only one bona fide consensus 5* player, Austin Nichols who transferred from Memphis, played one season at Virginia before turning pro. He had two other players who were either 4* or 5* (depending on which recruit rankings you look at): Sylven Landesberg, who Bennett inherited when he was named head coach, and who played one season for Bennett before turning pro, and Kyle Guy, who played 3 years for Bennett, before he turned pro.

The problem with Cuonzo's approach is that it is good for only one season, maybe two at best, before they leave. And one or two injuries, and there goes even your one season. Cuonzo was fortunate that Montgomery had left him with enough very good players to complement his star recruits. But he either had no plan or his plan failed, because he was unable tor bring in more good players to replace the ones who left. Lee was good, and Moore, but that was not much, considering how many players Cal lost. And Cuonzo himself lost Mathews, whom he did not handle well. Duke and Kentucky attract a stable full of one-and-dones year after year. That is not Cal, and likely never will be. I would shoot for the Virginia model for Cal. I'd hire Bennett in a heartbeat, and I'd take a look at any of Bennett's assistants who might be willing to leave Virginia for the Bay Area. Unless Cal shows some real improvement this season, that is.






I agree that the Virginia model would be great to emulate- another note, is that Virginia itself is a pretty good school so he has to deal with admissions as well.

I guess the difference is that he was able to recruit the 4 stars to Virginia consistently (outside 2013 and 2017 he's always had a top-100 player in his recruiting class) whereas at this point we aren't even getting anyone in the top 150. The exception being Bowser. I mean if you look at hyper-recently, we're not even recruiting in the top 200 lol. Even with all the pitfalls of Cal, there's no reason why recruiting should be this poor. Even with the lack of practice facility and new NIL world, we simply can't be that bad that we're only getting no-stars and low 3-stars.

The next coach simply has to do better and bring a much better recruiting staff. Got to win the norcal recruits (the Mahaney's of the world) and have a better socal presence. I also refuse to believe that every good Oakland Soldier & Prolific Prep player doesn't qualify for admission. Cmon. In today's world with grade inflation there MUST be kids from those programs with > 3.0 GPA.

Would love to grab a top Virginia assistant to lead our team. I know some posters have reservations about a non-california based head coach but I think given the similarity of how we'd like to transform our program like Virginia did, I'd be happy to nab a Virginia staff member.


Virginia teams have been full of Top 100 players when they were good. However, last year Bennett had "only" two, finished 6th in the ACC and missed the NCAA tournament, narrowly won a couple games in the NIT.

Bennett, plays very slow, but is VERY efficient on offense and defense. I much prefer Few whose Gonzaga teams are also VERY efficient on both ends but play fast. Randy Bennett at St. Mary's is similar (as was Monty and Coach K). However, slow and efficient is MUCH preferable to slow and inefficient (Fox and Martin).

Last year Cal was #330 in 3pt shots made, Virginia was #350. USF was #17.

I just don't think slow down, defense first basketball is ever going to be popular with recruits on the West Coast who grew up rooting for the Lakers and Warriors. Finding a charismatic (young?) coach who can recruit and, along with his staff, can teach, coach and strategize efficient basketball really isn't as tough as people make it out to be.
when you don't have the talent, I'd argue you load up on shooters

obviously that's not fox's strategy, which as far as I can tell is load up on length for defense
Civil Bear
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HoopDreams said:

Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong

Martin had only one good recruiting year at Cal. It's why the cupboard was bare when he left. If not for the one fluke recruiting class, every other coach over the last 30 years not named Fox had better recruiting classes.
Big C
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Civil Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong

Martin had only one good recruiting year at Cal. It's why the cupboard was bare when he left. If not for the one fluke recruiting class, every other coach over the last 30 years not named Fox had better recruiting classes.

Maybe CM's one good recruiting year was the norm and his other, far lesser years were the flukes! Go ahead and try and rap your head around that!
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