Is Fox gone yet? If not, why?

5,459 Views | 56 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by stu
Econ141
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Can't believe we are paying for this guys flights to go around and lose all over the place. If we can't fire him immediately, at stop having him travel with the team and save on some airfare.
bluesaxe
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Oakbear said:

parentswerebears said:

Every day, I wake up with hope and by midday it is dashed because there is still a fox in the Haas.
And I thought I was the only one lol
I only check once a week because I can't get optimistic about it.
tequila4kapp
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Alkiadt said:

CalLifer said:

Alkiadt said:

tequila4kapp said:

bruab2 said:

I keep checking this site everyday to see if Fox is gone.

What is the hold up?

When he didn't get fired after the game where even the BI moderators publicly called for it and when many of us wrote letters…I don't think it is going to happen.

Fox must have compromising photos of Knowlton or something because we are WAY beyond the point of anything Knowlton does with Fox making sense anymore.


You think Knowlton will fire somebody based on emails from internet blog sites or posts by the mods? Only if they're coming from the big donors, most of whom aren't on these blogs. There's a buyout and new money required for the next coach that has to be covered and will be by those folks.

Regardless, we'll have a new coach next season. This year was the year Fox had to make some progress. He obviously isn't, and won't. Everybody knows that, including Fox.
It won't matter if it is this week or near the end of the season. If this trend continues I believe it will be done in the mid-late regular season. And it will be an anti climatic necessity as we all know. Any "interim" coach will be just that, a placeholder until the new hire is picked.



You seem to have some inside knowledge, so I'm assuming you know the pressure isn't coming from the big donors.

I'm curious, though, do you think that Knowlton is actively going out to donors to make the case that Fox is awful, it actually might be good to make a change now to let the team and the department know this level of performance is unacceptable? Trying to make the case that the money is needed now? That every game Fox continues to be the coach is damaging the department's credibility?Or do you think he is doing nothing but twiddling his thumbs while Cal athletics burns down to the ground around him?


I think my point was poorly communicated.
I didn't say pressure wasn't coming from some big donors. In fact I'm sure it is. Knowlton does not need to convince anybody of what's going on. But there are a lot of longtime, weary donors tired of supporting this. I'll bet Knowlton is feeling big pressure to make the change just to get some significant donors back on board if anything.

I'm sure everyone involved knows that without a miraculous turnaround and some well played basketball, there's going to be a change. I'm talking Fox, his agent and yes, Knowlton.
"Sending a message now that this is unacceptable" won't change anything for next year. It will lead to an interim coach, who will have to be replaced anyway. They will go outside of this staff next year. No currently working qualified coaches will publicly say they're talking to Cal about the job during the season.

Just like it was known by some that Musgrave and Angus were gone after the Colorado game. There is a professional courtesy, and all coaches know they'll get fired sooner or later. Like it or not, Knowlton obviously thought Fox deserved this one last year based on the situation and events of the past few years. It's not working.
See, I don't think this part is true. Christ gave the interview that says coaches are fired too easily and there's more important stuff than winning (or whatever she said). Layer that on top of Fox being the single worst coach in Cal at least the past 35 years (but for his immediate predecessor) and it starts to look like the administration doesn't care enough to make a move. That perception does damage to the entire AD, and especially hoops - recruiting and attendance are realizing that problem now; it will eventually manifest on the money front too
calumnus
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tequila4kapp said:

Alkiadt said:

CalLifer said:

Alkiadt said:

tequila4kapp said:

bruab2 said:

I keep checking this site everyday to see if Fox is gone.

What is the hold up?

When he didn't get fired after the game where even the BI moderators publicly called for it and when many of us wrote letters…I don't think it is going to happen.

Fox must have compromising photos of Knowlton or something because we are WAY beyond the point of anything Knowlton does with Fox making sense anymore.


You think Knowlton will fire somebody based on emails from internet blog sites or posts by the mods? Only if they're coming from the big donors, most of whom aren't on these blogs. There's a buyout and new money required for the next coach that has to be covered and will be by those folks.

Regardless, we'll have a new coach next season. This year was the year Fox had to make some progress. He obviously isn't, and won't. Everybody knows that, including Fox.
It won't matter if it is this week or near the end of the season. If this trend continues I believe it will be done in the mid-late regular season. And it will be an anti climatic necessity as we all know. Any "interim" coach will be just that, a placeholder until the new hire is picked.



You seem to have some inside knowledge, so I'm assuming you know the pressure isn't coming from the big donors.

I'm curious, though, do you think that Knowlton is actively going out to donors to make the case that Fox is awful, it actually might be good to make a change now to let the team and the department know this level of performance is unacceptable? Trying to make the case that the money is needed now? That every game Fox continues to be the coach is damaging the department's credibility?Or do you think he is doing nothing but twiddling his thumbs while Cal athletics burns down to the ground around him?


I think my point was poorly communicated.
I didn't say pressure wasn't coming from some big donors. In fact I'm sure it is. Knowlton does not need to convince anybody of what's going on. But there are a lot of longtime, weary donors tired of supporting this. I'll bet Knowlton is feeling big pressure to make the change just to get some significant donors back on board if anything.

I'm sure everyone involved knows that without a miraculous turnaround and some well played basketball, there's going to be a change. I'm talking Fox, his agent and yes, Knowlton.
"Sending a message now that this is unacceptable" won't change anything for next year. It will lead to an interim coach, who will have to be replaced anyway. They will go outside of this staff next year. No currently working qualified coaches will publicly say they're talking to Cal about the job during the season.

Just like it was known by some that Musgrave and Angus were gone after the Colorado game. There is a professional courtesy, and all coaches know they'll get fired sooner or later. Like it or not, Knowlton obviously thought Fox deserved this one last year based on the situation and events of the past few years. It's not working.
See, I don't think this part is true. Christ gave the interview that says coaches are fired too easily and there's more important stuff than winning (or whatever she said). Layer that on top of Fox being the single worst coach in Cal at least the past 35 years (but for his immediate predecessor) and it starts to look like the administration doesn't care enough to make a move. That perception does damage to the entire AD, and especially hoops - recruiting and attendance are realizing that problem now; it will eventually manifest on the money front too


I don't think Christ and Knowlton have a clue how bad this season will be. They clearly know nothing about football or basketball (or business, marketing….). They are reactive, but they will be forced to react.
stu
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It would show no class to fire a coach between games in a tournament 3000 miles away.
annarborbear
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stu said:

It would show no class to fire a coach between games in a tournament 3000 miles away.
OK, how about on the tarmac after it's over.
dimitrig
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If Fox was a gentleman he'd cite health reasons and resign.

stu
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dimitrig said:

If Fox was a gentleman he'd cite health reasons and resign.
COVID-19?
bruab2
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annarborbear said:

stu said:

It would show no class to fire a coach between games in a tournament 3000 miles away.
OK, how about on the tarmac after it's over.
I like it.
CalLifer
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It is just amazing that we are sitting here, now, at 0-7 in our head coach's FOURTH year, and the worst P5 start IN THE LAST FORTY years, and our athletic director is just sitting around, watching, and trying to tell us all how bad Mark Fox feels about it and how he is trying.
bearmanpg
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Is Fox still here? Well, guess I'll check again tomorrow...
socaltownie
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CalLifer said:

It is just amazing that we are sitting here, now, at 0-7 in our head coach's FOURTH year, and the worst P5 start IN THE LAST FORTY years, and our athletic director is just sitting around, watching, and trying to tell us all how bad Mark Fox feels about it and how he is trying.
I think as others pointed out there are optics in play here (and the idea that good employees don't put new **** on their bosses plate when this are going to ****).

Right now UC faces an UNPRECEDENTED crisis (it really is) with the strike. There really isn't a good answer here. Giving into the demands of the grad students would put unprecedented pressure on the budget and the answers by the union ("Lobby better") flies in the face of how the California Budget works (happy to elaborate if the peanut gallery cares). Meanwhile grad students are facing an ridiculously challenging moment in respect to cost of living and lack of affordable graduate housing. The way the university hires and rewards faculty (and the teaching load) requires graduate labor. Administrative bloat is always a good target until you start to realize that a lot of that bloat is a function of new regulator mandates _AND_ how faculty over the past several decades has gotten out of a lot of its administrative roles.

Lets assume for a moment that Fox IS going to be fired at the end of the year. So really the choice is to fire now and put in place an interim, wait until March or maybe wait until after the xmas break.

I can absolutely see a logic until waiting till the strike is settled to avoid the opics of holding the line agaist the strikers demands while paying out several multiple of millions to a fire coach. Most of us know it is more complicated and these buysout get negotiated down but try explaining that to angry strikers and the less than sympathetic press.
Take care of your Chicken
oskidunker
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Well if they bring Traveler maybe we could offer money to ride him out of town. Then we could….
Maybe… fight on against Eastern Washington. I hear Legans has them practicing that half court shot he made against usc while at Cal.That-would be a giant fucla. We are do fora miracle last second loss.

Part 2. If Legans be named Cal coach ,would his mother come?
Go Bears!
CalLifer
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socaltownie said:

CalLifer said:

It is just amazing that we are sitting here, now, at 0-7 in our head coach's FOURTH year, and the worst P5 start IN THE LAST FORTY years, and our athletic director is just sitting around, watching, and trying to tell us all how bad Mark Fox feels about it and how he is trying.
I think as others pointed out there are optics in play here (and the idea that good employees don't put new **** on their bosses plate when this are going to ****).

Right now UC faces an UNPRECEDENTED crisis (it really is) with the strike. There really isn't a good answer here. Giving into the demands of the grad students would put unprecedented pressure on the budget and the answers by the union ("Lobby better") flies in the face of how the California Budget works (happy to elaborate if the peanut gallery cares). Meanwhile grad students are facing an ridiculously challenging moment in respect to cost of living and lack of affordable graduate housing. The way the university hires and rewards faculty (and the teaching load) requires graduate labor. Administrative bloat is always a good target until you start to realize that a lot of that bloat is a function of new regulator mandates _AND_ how faculty over the past several decades has gotten out of a lot of its administrative roles.

Lets assume for a moment that Fox IS going to be fired at the end of the year. So really the choice is to fire now and put in place an interim, wait until March or maybe wait until after the xmas break.

I can absolutely see a logic until waiting till the strike is settled to avoid the opics of holding the line agaist the strikers demands while paying out several multiple of millions to a fire coach. Most of us know it is more complicated and these buysout get negotiated down but try explaining that to angry strikers and the less than sympathetic press.
I'm sure you are 100% right, and the optics of firing while dealing with the strike are impacting the ability of the administration to make the change.

At the same time, though, if what you do is just elevate someone like Andrew Francis, your money outlay is unchanged while you still make a statement about what is acceptable (I'm assuming here that any payments to Fox are not a 1-time lump some but paid out over time on a schedule similar to if he remains employed). I guess I feel like there are also optics to taking no action when the performance of the head basketball coach is so poor as to bring us to the worst level of any major-conference team in FORTY years.

And I think I might feel a little better if I thought that the strike is something Knowlton himself is considering/weighing. I have so little faith in Knowlton that I believe he is fine with Fox's performance to date.
stu
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socaltownie said:

... Right now UC faces an UNPRECEDENTED crisis (it really is) with the strike ...
Thanks for pointing that out. Context matters and I had not seen that.

Maybe Fox could hire a few grad assistants to coach the team while he retreats to his office to concentrate on research.
stu
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Looks like some of the strike issues may be settled:
https://www.kqed.org/news/11933284/unconscionable-academic-workers-accuse-uc-of-stalling-as-strike-enters-third-week
socaltownie
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stu said:

Looks like some of the strike issues may be settled:
https://www.kqed.org/news/11933284/unconscionable-academic-workers-accuse-uc-of-stalling-as-strike-enters-third-week
The researchers and the post-docs feel like low hanging fruit. In many (most?) cases grants cover their expenses and so what this means, in practice, is that there are going to be fewer slots moving foward with more money going to the PD and researchers awarded. This also reflects the economics of those positions. Covers, as I understand it, about 1/4 of the strikers

The FAR more challenging issue involves the granders and TAs. These are grad student slots. They are NOT covered, in most cases, by grants. And as I also understand it, some years after I left grad school the unions won restrictions on work load. So they can't just tell TAs to teach more sections or grade more papers. that involves about 75% of the workers and with finals coming up is a huge challenge for the university.
Take care of your Chicken
calumnus
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CalLifer said:

socaltownie said:

CalLifer said:

It is just amazing that we are sitting here, now, at 0-7 in our head coach's FOURTH year, and the worst P5 start IN THE LAST FORTY years, and our athletic director is just sitting around, watching, and trying to tell us all how bad Mark Fox feels about it and how he is trying.
I think as others pointed out there are optics in play here (and the idea that good employees don't put new **** on their bosses plate when this are going to ****).

Right now UC faces an UNPRECEDENTED crisis (it really is) with the strike. There really isn't a good answer here. Giving into the demands of the grad students would put unprecedented pressure on the budget and the answers by the union ("Lobby better") flies in the face of how the California Budget works (happy to elaborate if the peanut gallery cares). Meanwhile grad students are facing an ridiculously challenging moment in respect to cost of living and lack of affordable graduate housing. The way the university hires and rewards faculty (and the teaching load) requires graduate labor. Administrative bloat is always a good target until you start to realize that a lot of that bloat is a function of new regulator mandates _AND_ how faculty over the past several decades has gotten out of a lot of its administrative roles.

Lets assume for a moment that Fox IS going to be fired at the end of the year. So really the choice is to fire now and put in place an interim, wait until March or maybe wait until after the xmas break.

I can absolutely see a logic until waiting till the strike is settled to avoid the opics of holding the line agaist the strikers demands while paying out several multiple of millions to a fire coach. Most of us know it is more complicated and these buysout get negotiated down but try explaining that to angry strikers and the less than sympathetic press.
I'm sure you are 100% right, and the optics of firing while dealing with the strike are impacting the ability of the administration to make the change.

At the same time, though, if what you do is just elevate someone like Andrew Francis, your money outlay is unchanged while you still make a statement about what is acceptable (I'm assuming here that any payments to Fox are not a 1-time lump some but paid out over time on a schedule similar to if he remains employed). I guess I feel like there are also optics to taking no action when the performance of the head basketball coach is so poor as to bring us to the worst level of any major-conference team in FORTY years.

And I think I might feel a little better if I thought that the strike is something Knowlton himself is considering/weighing. I have so little faith in Knowlton that I believe he is fine with Fox's performance to date.


Yeah, I don't see how firing the overpaid HC and handing the team over to his much lower paid assistant is an issue the graduate students would seize. If it even crossed their radar they would probably sympathize with Francis.

Knowlton getting $1 million a year with 7 more years guaranteed? That might piss me off. $30 million guaranteed to Wilcox after another losing season? That might piss me off.

But if Knowlton/Christ are afraid to do the right thing for Cal athletics because they are afraid it will expose their own financial mismanagement and largesse? That is pretty damn damning.
ncbears
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I'm just curious whether Fox will win more games this season than Wilcox did.
socaltownie
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calumnus said:

CalLifer said:

socaltownie said:

CalLifer said:

It is just amazing that we are sitting here, now, at 0-7 in our head coach's FOURTH year, and the worst P5 start IN THE LAST FORTY years, and our athletic director is just sitting around, watching, and trying to tell us all how bad Mark Fox feels about it and how he is trying.
I think as others pointed out there are optics in play here (and the idea that good employees don't put new **** on their bosses plate when this are going to ****).

Right now UC faces an UNPRECEDENTED crisis (it really is) with the strike. There really isn't a good answer here. Giving into the demands of the grad students would put unprecedented pressure on the budget and the answers by the union ("Lobby better") flies in the face of how the California Budget works (happy to elaborate if the peanut gallery cares). Meanwhile grad students are facing an ridiculously challenging moment in respect to cost of living and lack of affordable graduate housing. The way the university hires and rewards faculty (and the teaching load) requires graduate labor. Administrative bloat is always a good target until you start to realize that a lot of that bloat is a function of new regulator mandates _AND_ how faculty over the past several decades has gotten out of a lot of its administrative roles.

Lets assume for a moment that Fox IS going to be fired at the end of the year. So really the choice is to fire now and put in place an interim, wait until March or maybe wait until after the xmas break.

I can absolutely see a logic until waiting till the strike is settled to avoid the opics of holding the line agaist the strikers demands while paying out several multiple of millions to a fire coach. Most of us know it is more complicated and these buysout get negotiated down but try explaining that to angry strikers and the less than sympathetic press.
I'm sure you are 100% right, and the optics of firing while dealing with the strike are impacting the ability of the administration to make the change.

At the same time, though, if what you do is just elevate someone like Andrew Francis, your money outlay is unchanged while you still make a statement about what is acceptable (I'm assuming here that any payments to Fox are not a 1-time lump some but paid out over time on a schedule similar to if he remains employed). I guess I feel like there are also optics to taking no action when the performance of the head basketball coach is so poor as to bring us to the worst level of any major-conference team in FORTY years.

And I think I might feel a little better if I thought that the strike is something Knowlton himself is considering/weighing. I have so little faith in Knowlton that I believe he is fine with Fox's performance to date.


Yeah, I don't see how firing the overpaid HC and handing the team over to his much lower paid assistant is an issue the graduate students would seize. If it even crossed their radar they would probably sympathize with Francis.

Knowlton getting $1 million a year with 7 more years guaranteed? That might piss me off. $30 million guaranteed to Wilcox after another losing season? That might piss me off.

But if Knowlton/Christ are afraid to do the right thing for Cal athletics because they are afraid it will expose their own financial mismanagement and largesse? That is pretty damn damning.

Anticipate how the really illinformed media will report on this. "Mark Fox Fired with a 10 million dollar payout." The details - like he was going to get paid this ANYWAY, that it is donor money, etc. etc. will be lost. Meanwhile (I would ) the union leadership will be talking about paying a BASKETBALL COACH several million a year while grad students CURING CANCER are living in their cars. ****. I just read something horribly inaccurate from the strike leadership about CMS being the MOST EXPENSIVE NEW COLLEGE STADIUM IN THE COUNTRY.
Take care of your Chicken
calumnus
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socaltownie said:

calumnus said:

CalLifer said:

socaltownie said:

CalLifer said:

It is just amazing that we are sitting here, now, at 0-7 in our head coach's FOURTH year, and the worst P5 start IN THE LAST FORTY years, and our athletic director is just sitting around, watching, and trying to tell us all how bad Mark Fox feels about it and how he is trying.
I think as others pointed out there are optics in play here (and the idea that good employees don't put new **** on their bosses plate when this are going to ****).

Right now UC faces an UNPRECEDENTED crisis (it really is) with the strike. There really isn't a good answer here. Giving into the demands of the grad students would put unprecedented pressure on the budget and the answers by the union ("Lobby better") flies in the face of how the California Budget works (happy to elaborate if the peanut gallery cares). Meanwhile grad students are facing an ridiculously challenging moment in respect to cost of living and lack of affordable graduate housing. The way the university hires and rewards faculty (and the teaching load) requires graduate labor. Administrative bloat is always a good target until you start to realize that a lot of that bloat is a function of new regulator mandates _AND_ how faculty over the past several decades has gotten out of a lot of its administrative roles.

Lets assume for a moment that Fox IS going to be fired at the end of the year. So really the choice is to fire now and put in place an interim, wait until March or maybe wait until after the xmas break.

I can absolutely see a logic until waiting till the strike is settled to avoid the opics of holding the line agaist the strikers demands while paying out several multiple of millions to a fire coach. Most of us know it is more complicated and these buysout get negotiated down but try explaining that to angry strikers and the less than sympathetic press.
I'm sure you are 100% right, and the optics of firing while dealing with the strike are impacting the ability of the administration to make the change.

At the same time, though, if what you do is just elevate someone like Andrew Francis, your money outlay is unchanged while you still make a statement about what is acceptable (I'm assuming here that any payments to Fox are not a 1-time lump some but paid out over time on a schedule similar to if he remains employed). I guess I feel like there are also optics to taking no action when the performance of the head basketball coach is so poor as to bring us to the worst level of any major-conference team in FORTY years.

And I think I might feel a little better if I thought that the strike is something Knowlton himself is considering/weighing. I have so little faith in Knowlton that I believe he is fine with Fox's performance to date.


Yeah, I don't see how firing the overpaid HC and handing the team over to his much lower paid assistant is an issue the graduate students would seize. If it even crossed their radar they would probably sympathize with Francis.

Knowlton getting $1 million a year with 7 more years guaranteed? That might piss me off. $30 million guaranteed to Wilcox after another losing season? That might piss me off.

But if Knowlton/Christ are afraid to do the right thing for Cal athletics because they are afraid it will expose their own financial mismanagement and largesse? That is pretty damn damning.

Anticipate how the really illinformed media will report on this. "Mark Fox Fired with a 10 million dollar payout." The details - like he was going to get paid this ANYWAY, that it is donor money, etc. etc. will be lost. Meanwhile (I would ) the union leadership will be talking about paying a BASKETBALL COACH several million a year while grad students CURING CANCER are living in their cars. ****. I just read something horribly inaccurate from the strike leadership about CMS being the MOST EXPENSIVE NEW COLLEGE STADIUM IN THE COUNTRY.


Even if that did happen, will that change the demands of the grad students or change what the university can or will offer to them? Will it have any material impact?

Or is this just one more excuse to do nothing and keep/extend Fox?
stu
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socaltownie said:

The researchers and the post-docs feel like low hanging fruit. In many (most?) cases grants cover their expenses and so what this means, in practice, is that there are going to be fewer slots moving foward with more money going to the PD and researchers awarded. This also reflects the economics of those positions. Covers, as I understand it, about 1/4 of the strikers

The FAR more challenging issue involves the granders and TAs. These are grad student slots. They are NOT covered, in most cases, by grants. And as I also understand it, some years after I left grad school the unions won restrictions on work load. So they can't just tell TAs to teach more sections or grade more papers. that involves about 75% of the workers and with finals coming up is a huge challenge for the university.
Long story: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/02/closed-labs-cancelled-classes-inside-us-higher-education-largest-strike
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