Jalen is graduating in May.
Celestine in Portal
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125 Replies |
Last: 6 mo ago by Big C
That works for me. Not squeaky clean but clean enough for me.barsad said:
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My suggestion would be for Cal to start a new, NIL-capped conference, and invite other top academic schools that don't feel like playing this game (and losing, like we're about to), every off-season.
Conference rules would cap NIL money in the same way there's a salary cap in pro sports, something reasonable that is still a good amount of money (100K?) but not outrageous, and once you're at the max that's it.
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Good for him! That makes me feel a lot better about his possible departure.carnicelat said:
Jalen is graduating in May.
It's hard to keep track of all the guys entering the portal. We're not the only team being gutted. Prices will drop once the premium players sign and set the market. I imagine part of the problem for players and coaches is the lack of info and transparency. How do you gauge someone's NIL value when you don't know what other players are getting paid, what other team's NIL budgets are, who else is entering the portal, etc.
Cal is in a decent spot. We have a smart head coach and good staff with NBA experience, lots of available playing time, a beautiful campus in a nice part of the country, outstanding academics, and a conference with great competition and visibility. While those don't trump NIL money for most MBB recruits, they matter at the margin and will help Madsen land guys we can afford.
Cal is in a decent spot. We have a smart head coach and good staff with NBA experience, lots of available playing time, a beautiful campus in a nice part of the country, outstanding academics, and a conference with great competition and visibility. While those don't trump NIL money for most MBB recruits, they matter at the margin and will help Madsen land guys we can afford.
I really like Celestine too. However, one of the things that bothers me about his unrealistic NIL demands, is that he isn't a DAWG. Yes, he's skilled and is capable of great games. But, he's laid back, often disappears and doesn't consistently show that fire. He's a great #3. If I'm investing significant NIL in a player, he better have an A+ motor.KoreAmBear said:
I'm sad about Celestine. He has had so much adversity with his injuries and he finally got a chance to shine. But it was still at 8+ ppg not exactly a stat stuffer. I think 2024-25 was a chance for him to be a star here, so it was puzzling that he entered the portal. Likely the bag was not being offered him, and the same goes for Rodney Brown Jr. I agree with BCAM's portal/NIL business model -- pay 3 of the stars big, then build around them with role players that fit the type of players that fit Mad Dog's style.
stu said:Good for him! That makes me feel a lot better about his possible departure.carnicelat said:
Jalen is graduating in May.
Undergrad should be where all of this begins and ends.
Good for him!
I know it's been stated several times before, but part of your observation on JC being laid back is that he is hampered by the injury and I honestly thinks it causes him to pace himself during the games. I recall in the home game vs. Furd that when Tyson had to go out, Celestine took it upon himself to really step up for about an 8 minute run. However to your point, whether its fair or not, the injury does affect his motor.BC Calfan said:I really like Celestine too. However, one of the things that bothers me about his unrealistic NIL demands, is that he isn't a DAWG. Yes, he's skilled and is capable of great games. But, he's laid back, often disappears and doesn't consistently show that fire. He's a great #3. If I'm investing significant NIL in a player, he better have an A+ motor.KoreAmBear said:
I'm sad about Celestine. He has had so much adversity with his injuries and he finally got a chance to shine. But it was still at 8+ ppg not exactly a stat stuffer. I think 2024-25 was a chance for him to be a star here, so it was puzzling that he entered the portal. Likely the bag was not being offered him, and the same goes for Rodney Brown Jr. I agree with BCAM's portal/NIL business model -- pay 3 of the stars big, then build around them with role players that fit the type of players that fit Mad Dog's style.
Celestine is a very good player. Great catch and shoot guy, poised, doesn't force it, and a good defender , with good size
I think he's not as explosive post-injury, but by next season he will be closer to 99% and therefore a better player
He does need to improve his ball handling, develop his right hand and rebounding
He could be a starter and possible lead player on a mid-major, or a starter or sixth/seventh man on many high D1 teams
Sorry to lose him
I think he's not as explosive post-injury, but by next season he will be closer to 99% and therefore a better player
He does need to improve his ball handling, develop his right hand and rebounding
He could be a starter and possible lead player on a mid-major, or a starter or sixth/seventh man on many high D1 teams
Sorry to lose him
Hopefully He will fully realize that Madsen is truly a players coach and that He should not be influenced by family members etc. JC will not find another HC who is flexible as to "practice days off" when one's knee is sore and yet does not impact line up position/PT. JC for 28 minutes/game was a 8 pt and 3 Reb average. He was playing on 1 1/2 knees literally. spot up shooter? best on the team. Conditioning, explosiveness, getting back on D to stop transition, on ball defender? Definite improvement needed. Bottom line, Coach and staff want him to come back and He still could.HoopDreams said:
Celestine is a very good player. Great catch and shoot guy, poised, doesn't force it, and a good defender , with good size
I think he's not as explosive post-injury, but by next season he will be closer to 99% and therefore a better player
He does need to improve his ball handling, develop his right hand and rebounding
He could be a starter and possible lead player on a mid-major, or a starter or sixth/seventh man on many high D1 teams
Sorry to lose him
For those who understandably see a roster completely gutted (Wilkinson, Larsen, Serbian guard notwithstanding)the amount of very good players truly interested in playing for this Staff is encouraging. As an aside, Cone and Tyson are being good Cal Ambassador's. In Madsen we trust: ).
In high school Celestine played for a strong team where he was maybe the third option. He is supposed to be a role player in college, and I think he is good in his role. I think the variability in his play depended on the other team's defense, or more specifically, Cal's very iffy offense. I don't think it was lack of effort on his part.4thGenCal said:Hopefully He will fully realize that Madsen is truly a players coach and that He should not be influenced by family members etc. JC will not find another HC who is flexible as to "practice days off" when one's knee is sore and yet does not impact line up position/PT. JC for 28 minutes/game was a 8 pt and 3 Reb average. He was playing on 1 1/2 knees literally. spot up shooter? best on the team. Conditioning, explosiveness, getting back on D to stop transition, on ball defender? Definite improvement needed. Bottom line, Coach and staff want him to come back and He still couldHoopDreams said:
Celestine is a very good player. Great catch and shoot guy, poised, doesn't force it, and a good defender , with good size
I think he's not as explosive post-injury, but by next season he will be closer to 99% and therefore a better player
He does need to improve his ball handling, develop his right hand and rebounding
He could be a starter and possible lead player on a mid-major, or a starter or sixth/seventh man on many high D1 teams
Sorry to lose him
For those who understandably see a roster completely gutted (Wilkinson, Larsen, Serbian guard notwithstanding)the amount of very good players truly interested in playing for this Staff is encouraging. As an aside, Cone and Tyson are being good Cal Ambassador's. In Madsen we trust: ).
I enjoyed watching him play and hope he decides to come back in a way that where all sides are happy.
Interesting. Do his advisors also think he can play in the NBA? Sure he could become a little better role player, but his athleticism and skills put a cap on what is realistic next yer.4thGenCal said:sluggo said:In high school Celestine played for a strong team where he was maybe the third option. He is supposed to be a role player in college, and I think he is good in his role. I think the variability in his play depended on the other team's defense, or more specifically, Cal's very iffy offense. I don't think it was lack of effort on his part.4thGenCal said:Hopefully He will fully realize that Madsen is truly a players coach and that He should not be influenced by family members etc. JC will not find another HC who is flexible as to "practice days off" when one's knee is sore and yet does not impact line up position/PT. JC for 28 minutes/game was a 8 pt and 3 Reb average. He was playing on 1 1/2 knees literally. spot up shooter? best on the team. Conditioning, explosiveness, getting back on D to stop transition, on ball defender? Definite improvement needed. Bottom line, Coach and staff want him to come back and He still could - it makes persuading tougher when family members believe their son should be the focal part/priority over legit NBA talent.HoopDreams said:
Celestine is a very good player. Great catch and shoot guy, poised, doesn't force it, and a good defender , with good size
I think he's not as explosive post-injury, but by next season he will be closer to 99% and therefore a better player
He does need to improve his ball handling, develop his right hand and rebounding
He could be a starter and possible lead player on a mid-major, or a starter or sixth/seventh man on many high D1 teams
Sorry to lose him
For those who understandably see a roster completely gutted (Wilkinson, Larsen, Serbian guard notwithstanding)the amount of very good players truly interested in playing for this Staff is encouraging. As an aside, Cone and Tyson are being good Cal Ambassador's. In Madsen we trust: ).
I enjoyed watching him play and hope he decides to come back in a way that where all sides are happy.
sluggo said:In high school Celestine played for a strong team where he was maybe the third option. He is supposed to be a role player in college, and I think he is good in his role. I think the variability in his play depended on the other team's defense, or more specifically, Cal's very iffy offense. I don't think it was lack of effort on his part.4thGenCal said:Hopefully He will fully realize that Madsen is truly a players coach and that He should not be influenced by family members etc. JC will not find another HC who is flexible as to "practice days off" when one's knee is sore and yet does not impact line up position/PT. JC for 28 minutes/game was a 8 pt and 3 Reb average. He was playing on 1 1/2 knees literally. spot up shooter? best on the team. Conditioning, explosiveness, getting back on D to stop transition, on ball defender? Definite improvement needed. Bottom line, Coach and staff want him to come back and He still couldHoopDreams said:
Celestine is a very good player. Great catch and shoot guy, poised, doesn't force it, and a good defender , with good size
I think he's not as explosive post-injury, but by next season he will be closer to 99% and therefore a better player
He does need to improve his ball handling, develop his right hand and rebounding
He could be a starter and possible lead player on a mid-major, or a starter or sixth/seventh man on many high D1 teams
Sorry to lose him
For those who understandably see a roster completely gutted (Wilkinson, Larsen, Serbian guard notwithstanding)the amount of very good players truly interested in playing for this Staff is encouraging. As an aside, Cone and Tyson are being good Cal Ambassador's. In Madsen we trust: ).
I enjoyed watching him play and hope he decides to come back in a way that where all sides are happy.
He was Fox's best recruit, endured all that, fought through injuries, his friend left and he is graduating. Entering the Portal makes sense.
Like Jordan Mathews, who lead a National Champion Gonzaga team in 3 point shooting, I could see Celestine being successful in a more structured offense.
Or maybe he works it out with Madsen and decides to stay for a grad certificate? Either way, I'm happy for him and I wish him well.
He'd be perfect for St. Mary's if he can up his D. Let Jefferson come to Cal. I'll take that trade. Though I'd prefer both.
Completely different perspective when the guy is a grad transfer. If he has the grades to get a grad degree paid for while playing, I can see him demeaning more to stay. and get grad certificate I wish my follow alum the best whatever decision he makes.calumnus said:sluggo said:In high school Celestine played for a strong team where he was maybe the third option. He is supposed to be a role player in college, and I think he is good in his role. I think the variability in his play depended on the other team's defense, or more specifically, Cal's very iffy offense. I don't think it was lack of effort on his part.4thGenCal said:Hopefully He will fully realize that Madsen is truly a players coach and that He should not be influenced by family members etc. JC will not find another HC who is flexible as to "practice days off" when one's knee is sore and yet does not impact line up position/PT. JC for 28 minutes/game was a 8 pt and 3 Reb average. He was playing on 1 1/2 knees literally. spot up shooter? best on the team. Conditioning, explosiveness, getting back on D to stop transition, on ball defender? Definite improvement needed. Bottom line, Coach and staff want him to come back and He still could - it makes persuading tougher when family members believe their son should be the focal part/priority over legit NBA talent.HoopDreams said:
Celestine is a very good player. Great catch and shoot guy, poised, doesn't force it, and a good defender , with good size
I think he's not as explosive post-injury, but by next season he will be closer to 99% and therefore a better player
He does need to improve his ball handling, develop his right hand and rebounding
He could be a starter and possible lead player on a mid-major, or a starter or sixth/seventh man on many high D1 teams
Sorry to lose him
For those who understandably see a roster completely gutted (Wilkinson, Larsen, Serbian guard notwithstanding)the amount of very good players truly interested in playing for this Staff is encouraging. As an aside, Cone and Tyson are being good Cal Ambassador's. In Madsen we trust: ).
I enjoyed watching him play and hope he decides to come back in a way that where all sides are happy.
He was Fox's best recruit, endured all that, fought through injuries, his friend left and he is graduating. Entering the Portal makes sense.
Like Jordan Mathews, who lead a National Champion Gonzaga team in 3 point shooting, I could see Celestine being successful in a more structured offense.
Or maybe he works it out with Madsen and decides to stay for a grad certificate? Either way, I'm happy for him and I wish him well.
I see a big difference between a grad degree and a grad certificate. Personally I'd go where I could get the degree.wifeisafurd said:Completely different perspective when the guy is a grad transfer. If he has the grades to get a grad degree paid for while playing, I can see him demeaning more to stay. and get grad certificate I wish my follow alum the best whatever decision he makes.calumnus said:sluggo said:In high school Celestine played for a strong team where he was maybe the third option. He is supposed to be a role player in college, and I think he is good in his role. I think the variability in his play depended on the other team's defense, or more specifically, Cal's very iffy offense. I don't think it was lack of effort on his part.4thGenCal said:Hopefully He will fully realize that Madsen is truly a players coach and that He should not be influenced by family members etc. JC will not find another HC who is flexible as to "practice days off" when one's knee is sore and yet does not impact line up position/PT. JC for 28 minutes/game was a 8 pt and 3 Reb average. He was playing on 1 1/2 knees literally. spot up shooter? best on the team. Conditioning, explosiveness, getting back on D to stop transition, on ball defender? Definite improvement needed. Bottom line, Coach and staff want him to come back and He still could - it makes persuading tougher when family members believe their son should be the focal part/priority over legit NBA talent.HoopDreams said:
Celestine is a very good player. Great catch and shoot guy, poised, doesn't force it, and a good defender , with good size
I think he's not as explosive post-injury, but by next season he will be closer to 99% and therefore a better player
He does need to improve his ball handling, develop his right hand and rebounding
He could be a starter and possible lead player on a mid-major, or a starter or sixth/seventh man on many high D1 teams
Sorry to lose him
For those who understandably see a roster completely gutted (Wilkinson, Larsen, Serbian guard notwithstanding)the amount of very good players truly interested in playing for this Staff is encouraging. As an aside, Cone and Tyson are being good Cal Ambassador's. In Madsen we trust: ).
I enjoyed watching him play and hope he decides to come back in a way that where all sides are happy.
He was Fox's best recruit, endured all that, fought through injuries, his friend left and he is graduating. Entering the Portal makes sense.
Like Jordan Mathews, who lead a National Champion Gonzaga team in 3 point shooting, I could see Celestine being successful in a more structured offense.
Or maybe he works it out with Madsen and decides to stay for a grad certificate? Either way, I'm happy for him and I wish him well.
barsad said:
I don't think Cal or any other school has to submit to this Wild West market mentality… by the way, getting a scholarship IS getting paid, why are we talking as if that has no monetary value?
My suggestion would be for Cal to start a new, NIL-capped conference, and invite other top academic schools that don't feel like playing this game (and losing, like we're about to), every off-season.
Conference rules would cap NIL money in the same way there's a salary cap in pro sports, something reasonable that is still a good amount of money (100K?) but not outrageous, and once you're at the max that's it.
Would we have bottom 25% players? Sure, and I say, so what? Would we still see entertaining basketball and rivalry games? Yes.
My guess is that eventually the "clean conferences" will do better than the free-market, pay-students-millions conferences. I don't think clean conferences would get shut out of March Madness, and when one of them inevitably beats a max-NIL team, it will create more interest for the sport.
We need to get out of the mindset that there's nothing we can do about this and we should be OK with paying 3-4 Cal players a bunch of money while the rest of the team gets nothing. I've already given up on 2024-2025, we have no names on our roster for God's sake, but somebody has to start talking about clean conferences now.
Great idea. I'm for it. Is it Tomatoe or tomahtow. Cel es tine or just Sellistine? We might never know
Go Bears!
stu said:I see a big difference between a grad degree and a grad certificate. Personally I'd go where I could get the degree.wifeisafurd said:Completely different perspective when the guy is a grad transfer. If he has the grades to get a grad degree paid for while playing, I can see him demeaning more to stay. and get grad certificate I wish my follow alum the best whatever decision he makes.calumnus said:sluggo said:In high school Celestine played for a strong team where he was maybe the third option. He is supposed to be a role player in college, and I think he is good in his role. I think the variability in his play depended on the other team's defense, or more specifically, Cal's very iffy offense. I don't think it was lack of effort on his part.4thGenCal said:Hopefully He will fully realize that Madsen is truly a players coach and that He should not be influenced by family members etc. JC will not find another HC who is flexible as to "practice days off" when one's knee is sore and yet does not impact line up position/PT. JC for 28 minutes/game was a 8 pt and 3 Reb average. He was playing on 1 1/2 knees literally. spot up shooter? best on the team. Conditioning, explosiveness, getting back on D to stop transition, on ball defender? Definite improvement needed. Bottom line, Coach and staff want him to come back and He still could - it makes persuading tougher when family members believe their son should be the focal part/priority over legit NBA talent.HoopDreams said:
Celestine is a very good player. Great catch and shoot guy, poised, doesn't force it, and a good defender , with good size
I think he's not as explosive post-injury, but by next season he will be closer to 99% and therefore a better player
He does need to improve his ball handling, develop his right hand and rebounding
He could be a starter and possible lead player on a mid-major, or a starter or sixth/seventh man on many high D1 teams
Sorry to lose him
For those who understandably see a roster completely gutted (Wilkinson, Larsen, Serbian guard notwithstanding)the amount of very good players truly interested in playing for this Staff is encouraging. As an aside, Cone and Tyson are being good Cal Ambassador's. In Madsen we trust: ).
I enjoyed watching him play and hope he decides to come back in a way that where all sides are happy.
He was Fox's best recruit, endured all that, fought through injuries, his friend left and he is graduating. Entering the Portal makes sense.
Like Jordan Mathews, who lead a National Champion Gonzaga team in 3 point shooting, I could see Celestine being successful in a more structured offense.
Or maybe he works it out with Madsen and decides to stay for a grad certificate? Either way, I'm happy for him and I wish him well.
Me too. Especially if he will already have the Cal degree and, with the COVID year and a medical redshirt, has two years of eligibility remaining to play with. That is an MBA, maybe at an Ivy? Or Stanford. If so, I hope we get two of theirs.
For those who understandably see a roster completely gutted (Wilkinson, Larsen, Serbian guard notwithstanding)
Don't forget Devin Curtis. I'm hopeful he'll stay and be a rare (in this era) 4 year developmental player for Madsen. I'll bet under Madsen's tutelage Curtis could become a very good rim protector, and maybe more than that.
At any rate, Curtis is probably our 2nd or 3rd best player at this moment!
Don't forget Devin Curtis. I'm hopeful he'll stay and be a rare (in this era) 4 year developmental player for Madsen. I'll bet under Madsen's tutelage Curtis could become a very good rim protector, and maybe more than that.
At any rate, Curtis is probably our 2nd or 3rd best player at this moment!
he played with a heavy knee brace and was obviously still recovering from his injury.4thGenCal said:Hopefully He will fully realize that Madsen is truly a players coach and that He should not be influenced by family members etc. JC will not find another HC who is flexible as to "practice days off" when one's knee is sore and yet does not impact line up position/PT. JC for 28 minutes/game was a 8 pt and 3 Reb average. He was playing on 1 1/2 knees literally. spot up shooter? best on the team. Conditioning, explosiveness, getting back on D to stop transition, on ball defender? Definite improvement needed. Bottom line, Coach and staff want him to come back and He still couldHoopDreams said:
Celestine is a very good player. Great catch and shoot guy, poised, doesn't force it, and a good defender , with good size
I think he's not as explosive post-injury, but by next season he will be closer to 99% and therefore a better player
He does need to improve his ball handling, develop his right hand and rebounding
He could be a starter and possible lead player on a mid-major, or a starter or sixth/seventh man on many high D1 teams
Sorry to lose him
For those who understandably see a roster completely gutted (Wilkinson, Larsen, Serbian guard notwithstanding)the amount of very good players truly interested in playing for this Staff is encouraging. As an aside, Cone and Tyson are being good Cal Ambassador's. In Madsen we trust: ).
the way the NBA would look at a player like Celestine is to factor in re-injury risk, which for Celestine is pretty high considering he's had multiple injuries going back to HS.
Cal would honor his NIL deal even if he got injured, but other programs might not
Perhaps Celestine is not factoring in his re-injury risk when projecting his NIL value
Not disputing that but SDSU is trying to avoid the challenge of NBA free agency locker room toxic culture by paying everyone a flat rate.tequila4kapp said:Read between the lines. Celestine was getting paid. He thinks he's a Mercedes, not a Honda. The model is irrelevant in such situations. Sounds like maybe he wasn't the only one, which would explain perhaps 3 of the departures. Think of it as Fox' parting gift to the program - guys who haven't done **** being entitled and demanding the world. Good riddance. Let's get the culture right with our new guys. The wins will follow and the program will get kick-started.socaltownie said:Ok. I am going to peanut gallery here. Leadership needs to looks at sdsu. Very different NIL model. Same number for scholarship players with modest bumps for starters. Broad rather than narrow funding base. Corporate sports hip happy to be identified and checks presented at halftime. Oh and sweet sixteen.4thGenCal said:Yes it is a loss and the staff wanted him to stay. This era is especially frustrating when 1) a player agrees to terms 2) Family members/advisors chime in and often create doubt with the player's sense of increased value and frankly encourage walking from verbal agreements 3) Most discouraging is that there are Collectives that will say what the player wants to hear from a money package/NIL "deal". Cal Collective is 100% honest and only gives their word on a NIL that it will fulfill. Yet when a player transfers based on "promises/even executed contract" there is no guarantee that the deal will be fully honored. SMH at the self evaluation/value of players who have not created a winning culture, or truly stood out on the court - yet have dramatically overstated their NIL demands. When the term "wild Wild West" is used in today's NIL environment for the major sports.it is spot on. Literally when a player who goes scoreless in 8 games down the later part of the season makes huge NIL demand, or a player demands to start and be the priority in the offense, or a player complains that their share is not enough etc - locker room culture is negatively impacted. The result while clearly facing a tough ACC conf entry, with doing a complete rebuild of a roster, will allow the Staff to build the right "together culture". This staff will bring in a good roster, but its going to take some lumps for sure. Bottom line - our Collective will need increased NIL support, to get a few of the very good players who want to play for Coach Madsen.ManBearLion123 said:
This is an absolutely massive loss.
All the other departures didn't significantly affect next season's outlook, but Celestine leaving certainly does. I'm not sure how Madsen could possibly rebuild this roster in a single offseason to the point that we are even close to a bubble team.
I don't understand this. As in any free market, players are "worth" what someone will pay them. Who are you (or anyone else) to say that a player is not "worth" what he's paid?
As "anyone else", I might say some player is not worth some amount to us. And I won't complain if that player turns out to be worth more to some other team.
My comment was about price discovery, which is part of the free market process. Like all assets, player value isn't static, it fluctuates. Right now, NIL is very fluid and opaque. As more guys sign, and info about their deals becomes available, everyone will be able to make better decisions about how to allocate NIL money. My guess, given what I've read, is that prices will come down as players realize their demands aren't realistic when compared to contracts that are actually being signed. Not a value judgement, just the way markets generally work.GMP said:
I don't understand this. As in any free market, players are "worth" what someone will pay them. Who are you (or anyone else) to say that a player is not "worth" what he's paid?
I agree. A free market is not always an efficient market. As a buyer, recognizing and taking advantage of those inefficiencies is key to success, particularly when you have limited funds as Cal does. I think the A's operated that way with Billy Ball.
socaltownie said:Not disputing that but SDSU is trying to avoid the challenge of NBA free agency locker room toxic culture by paying everyone a flat rate.tequila4kapp said:Read between the lines. Celestine was getting paid. He thinks he's a Mercedes, not a Honda. The model is irrelevant in such situations. Sounds like maybe he wasn't the only one, which would explain perhaps 3 of the departures. Think of it as Fox' parting gift to the program - guys who haven't done **** being entitled and demanding the world. Good riddance. Let's get the culture right with our new guys. The wins will follow and the program will get kick-started.socaltownie said:Ok. I am going to peanut gallery here. Leadership needs to looks at sdsu. Very different NIL model. Same number for scholarship players with modest bumps for starters. Broad rather than narrow funding base. Corporate sports hip happy to be identified and checks presented at halftime. Oh and sweet sixteen.4thGenCal said:Yes it is a loss and the staff wanted him to stay. This era is especially frustrating when 1) a player agrees to terms 2) Family members/advisors chime in and often create doubt with the player's sense of increased value and frankly encourage walking from verbal agreements 3) Most discouraging is that there are Collectives that will say what the player wants to hear from a money package/NIL "deal". Cal Collective is 100% honest and only gives their word on a NIL that it will fulfill. Yet when a player transfers based on "promises/even executed contract" there is no guarantee that the deal will be fully honored. SMH at the self evaluation/value of players who have not created a winning culture, or truly stood out on the court - yet have dramatically overstated their NIL demands. When the term "wild Wild West" is used in today's NIL environment for the major sports.it is spot on. Literally when a player who goes scoreless in 8 games down the later part of the season makes huge NIL demand, or a player demands to start and be the priority in the offense, or a player complains that their share is not enough etc - locker room culture is negatively impacted. The result while clearly facing a tough ACC conf entry, with doing a complete rebuild of a roster, will allow the Staff to build the right "together culture". This staff will bring in a good roster, but its going to take some lumps for sure. Bottom line - our Collective will need increased NIL support, to get a few of the very good players who want to play for Coach Madsen.ManBearLion123 said:
This is an absolutely massive loss.
All the other departures didn't significantly affect next season's outlook, but Celestine leaving certainly does. I'm not sure how Madsen could possibly rebuild this roster in a single offseason to the point that we are even close to a bubble team.
This should be the plan. Give everyone 50k. If they sign a deal with nike, theyll get a few million more. We shouldn't be the ones paying big bucks. We should be brokering deals tho.
Essentially (I am not sure W-2 or 1099) the player becomes the employee of the Collective who, in turn, markets these players are ambassadors to various San Diego Non-profits. They are required to do endorsements, attend events, if youth actually give back. THeir budget is 1.5 million for next year and they have a base of right now 4000 donors each contributing a yearly nut of between $25 and 2500.bearsandgiants said:socaltownie said:Not disputing that but SDSU is trying to avoid the challenge of NBA free agency locker room toxic culture by paying everyone a flat rate.tequila4kapp said:Read between the lines. Celestine was getting paid. He thinks he's a Mercedes, not a Honda. The model is irrelevant in such situations. Sounds like maybe he wasn't the only one, which would explain perhaps 3 of the departures. Think of it as Fox' parting gift to the program - guys who haven't done **** being entitled and demanding the world. Good riddance. Let's get the culture right with our new guys. The wins will follow and the program will get kick-started.socaltownie said:Ok. I am going to peanut gallery here. Leadership needs to looks at sdsu. Very different NIL model. Same number for scholarship players with modest bumps for starters. Broad rather than narrow funding base. Corporate sports hip happy to be identified and checks presented at halftime. Oh and sweet sixteen.4thGenCal said:Yes it is a loss and the staff wanted him to stay. This era is especially frustrating when 1) a player agrees to terms 2) Family members/advisors chime in and often create doubt with the player's sense of increased value and frankly encourage walking from verbal agreements 3) Most discouraging is that there are Collectives that will say what the player wants to hear from a money package/NIL "deal". Cal Collective is 100% honest and only gives their word on a NIL that it will fulfill. Yet when a player transfers based on "promises/even executed contract" there is no guarantee that the deal will be fully honored. SMH at the self evaluation/value of players who have not created a winning culture, or truly stood out on the court - yet have dramatically overstated their NIL demands. When the term "wild Wild West" is used in today's NIL environment for the major sports.it is spot on. Literally when a player who goes scoreless in 8 games down the later part of the season makes huge NIL demand, or a player demands to start and be the priority in the offense, or a player complains that their share is not enough etc - locker room culture is negatively impacted. The result while clearly facing a tough ACC conf entry, with doing a complete rebuild of a roster, will allow the Staff to build the right "together culture". This staff will bring in a good roster, but its going to take some lumps for sure. Bottom line - our Collective will need increased NIL support, to get a few of the very good players who want to play for Coach Madsen.ManBearLion123 said:
This is an absolutely massive loss.
All the other departures didn't significantly affect next season's outlook, but Celestine leaving certainly does. I'm not sure how Madsen could possibly rebuild this roster in a single offseason to the point that we are even close to a bubble team.
This should be the plan. Give everyone 50k. If they sign a deal with nike, theyll get a few million more. We shouldn't be the ones paying big bucks. We should be brokering deals tho.
They got a fairly substaintial donation to their collective from the gaming tribe that sponsors namming rights on the SDSU arena. Oh, and at least for now donations are tax deductible which, given the requirements on the players, I am pretty sure is OK or at least is creative enough that they seem to be forging ahead irrespective of the IRS guidance letter. Again, my undersatnding is base amount for each scholarship player that agrees to participate with some sweeteners on top for starters as ID by coach. As you say, they are free to go out and "olivia dunn" additional $$$ from others.
I honestly think this is a model that makes SO MUCH MORE sense for Cal than what I see going on in the legends (a NIL I have modestly contributed). I just don't see us having the kind of supporters who are going to budget 3-5 million a year, each and every year, to give to mercenary athletes (which there is nothing wrong with - all professional athletes any more are essentially mercenaries). But c'est la vi.....just along for the ride.
(and the reason is that we have a history of more modest sports fundraising. Not horrible. But modest. Trying to outraise programs that eventually get things rolling in NIL feels like a quest that will be very hard to do.)
I remember back a few eras, when I got totally disgusted with Cal basketball, and I started going only to CCSF games for a few years. 10 minutes from my house, a great coach in Brad Duggan, conference championships, and a State title. He coached good defense, and great offenses, with the offenses tailored to the personnel. If he had fast players, they played run and gun, and with slower players, he played a more deliberate half court offense, equally good offenses. Duggan usually came to the gym an hour before the players and visited with the players' families along with former players and their families. He was a very animated coach often leaving the bench to go up into the stands and coach from there. His colorful language, style, and manner was a treat to watch, unlike most coaches of the day, calling time out to discuss the game with their 5 assistants, and then in the final few seconds of a timeout, impart some wisdom (or lack of) to his players. When Duggan called a timeout, usually it produced results on the floor. I was in basketball fan heaven in those days. There was only one thing that was disappointing about it, and that was that is was not Cal playing, it was CCSF. I solved the problem by enrolling in CCSF for some night classes, so I felt more at home, rooting for my school once again. But there remained an empty spot in my heart, because it wasn't Cal.stu said:Exactly. I may go watch UC Davis instead.parentswerebears said:
This NIL crap is giving me a different kind of apathy that Fox did, but it is an apathy. Who am I supposed to root for if no one stays like her than a year or two? I mean, why should I care about a bunch of mercenaries?
SFCityBear
He averages 8.3ppg and 3rpg. Why is it such a big loss? He is by no means a game changer. He's a modest player on a modest team. If anything, it allows Madsen to upgrade over the position.
touchdownbears43 said:
He averages 8.3ppg and 3rpg. Why is it such a big loss? He is by no means a game changer. He's a modest player on a modest team. If anything, it allows Madsen to upgrade over the position.
He shot .440 from Three, highest among our starters. He was our only starter who came to Cal as a freshman and was our only starter who we thought we would have back. We never really got to see him healthy for a full season. So plenty of reason to think next year he could be better, especially with more touches, and plenty of reason for fans to be disappointed he's leaving.
I don't think any of this matters. Fresh start with Madsen's crew. No more crybabies or jealous bears in the clubhouse. Onward and upward.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Waiting for someone to be good in their fourth year kinda makes my point. Hope he enjoys his next stop.
touchdownbears43 said:
Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Waiting for someone to be good in their fourth year kinda makes my point. Hope he enjoys his next stop.
He was one of our three best players in his third year.
I agree with you he is replaceable, but I disagree that we wouldn't want someone comparable, especially the .440 on Threes. I am not disappointed he is leaving. It makes sense to me. I root for the players. He will have a Cal degree.
I am just pointing out that there are a lot of posters lamenting the "good old days of 4 year players" and he was that guy. Probably our last.
As a .440 spot up shooter from three with good size and OK athleticism in the right system he can be like Jordan Mathews, who lead National Champion Gonzaga in 3 point shooting after transferring out of Cal for his final year.
In any case I wish him well and look forward to seeing who Madden will bring in.
Yeah, it's too bad Celestine is leaving (though far from the end of the world)...
He had that one three-pointer at the end of the game that won it for us... he had those two steal-and-slams in a row that changed a game in our favor... and we finally got to where we were pronouncing his name right ("Ce LESS teen" not "CELL ess teen").
Maybe he will end up staying! Anyway, he's graduating. Best wishes and on we go.
Celestine was my favorite player on last season's team. You were correct about his overall mediocre stats, but it is a cherry pick to use just that to belittle his season, and make derogatory comments about his worth to the team and what the program might have been, had he stayed a Bear.touchdownbears43 said:
He averages 8.3ppg and 3rpg. Why is it such a big loss? He is by no means a game changer. He's a modest player on a modest team. If anything, it allows Madsen to upgrade over the position.
Celestine had a checkered career at Cal, as he was often injured, and when returning to the lineup, it could take him several games to get back up to his previous form. This was his best year at Cal, but the individual stats were average, because he did not see the ball too much, either by the coach's plan or by it not being a big part of his teammates plans to get him the ball. He is never going to be a dominant player, but he is one of those guys who, when he gets in the game, he gives us a chance to win.
Why use individual stats to judge him? Are they more important to you than the Cal team winning ball games? In the first place, he was a little hobbled or limited because of the injuries, but even more so, he was not a player who could get a rebound and drive the length of the court and put up a shot. So he needed others to throw him the ball once in a while. There was little of that. He needed a coach who would run plays for him, set screens for him, but he had little of that either. Cal HAD NO POINT GUARD, and that made it difficult for everyone. He played on a team that played selfishly, with Tyson and Cone taking most of the shots. Cone took way too many. Throw in Aimaq, and those three were taking nearly all the shots. Celestine was a player with above average passing skills, but Cal neglected to take advantage of that as well. He made less than 1 turnover per game, and played very good defense.
I like to use team statistics, not just player statistics, to form an opinion of a player. Here goes:
There was a 5 game stretch where Celestine was out with injury. The Bears had 1 win and 4 losses with Jalen out of the lineup. There were 14 games where Celestine played 28 minutes or less, and the Bears went 4 wins and 10 losses in those games. Then there were 16 games where Celestine played 29 minutes or more, and in those games, the Bears went 10-6. So the more minutes he played, and the more games he played, the better the chances were that his team would win those games.
That is what is important in this game - the team winning games. Cal should not be a place to showcase players so they can leave early for the NBA. If they play well and want to take a chance on that, fine. But while they are here, they should be working toward making their teammates better, good enough to rack up wins all the way into the tournament. Celestine was a guy who tried to do that, I believe.
SFCityBear
I always find it interesting when a player is reviewed solely by statistics, how one statement can omit a significant stat and how it make only take one more stat to change the entire perspective.calumnus said:touchdownbears43 said:
He averages 8.3ppg and 3rpg. Why is it such a big loss? He is by no means a game changer. He's a modest player on a modest team. If anything, it allows Madsen to upgrade over the position.
He shot .440 from Three, highest among our starters. He was our only starter who came to Cal as a freshman and was our only starter who we thought we would have back. We never really got to see him healthy for a full season. So plenty of reason to think next year he could be better, especially with more touches, and plenty of reason for fans to be disappointed he's leaving.
I've always been a great follower of stats, but by themselves they simply don't always tell the whole story. Considering the uncertainty of this whole transfer portal situation, anyone who watched Cal play this year would certainly welcome Jalen Celestine back for another season.
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