BoaltBear;842221509 said:

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Lee would be welcomed to Cal with open arms. He'd have an immediate impact and play with an amazing class of guards. He should transfer.

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Depending on early LOI outcome that ship may have already sailed. He would have to sit out next year and by that time there would be some stiff competition at the 4/5 between Diallo, Walsh (maybe), and Moute. He would add a lot - no doubt - but Monty moved on - as we would expect him to.

Can we just go back to trashing Garrett Sim? Where is Richard Lee when we need him?

Lee clearly made the wrong decision. Not saying cal would have been the right one, but playtime is better than practice. NBA scouts don't get to see him play and all they know us that he can't get time with a college team, so why would they waste their time on him. There are already so few spots in the NBA. At least at Cal he could showcase his skills week in and week out.

The poor guy is likely wasting his last years of basketball sitting on the bench in hopes that the NBA comes calling. Good luck with that. I honestly just feel bad for him. At least a cal education would have made him 20 grand more a year.

socaltownie;842221507 said:

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Honestly my beef more than anything is with Coach Calipari - who CLEARLY is putting self before these young men. The NCAA is brutally cruel when it comes to eligibility and transfer rules. You do just a horrific disservice to these men if you recruit a frosh to a position and then, some 2 months later, you recruit a marginally BETTER frosh to the same position. Worst thing? We might not even KNOW if Marcus is better than Randle - because it is clear to all that Randal is going to be getting the majority of minutes at the four.

Now the optomists say "Well Randle is gone after this year so it is OK". But that ignores Jahlil Okafor and what happens if _HE_ signs with Kentucky. Karl Towns may take those minutes as well at the Stretch 4.

We will never know what Calipari said to Marcus but, IMHO, I would be floored if he didn't say "Well of course you will be our four in the future".

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This is ridiculous.

Calipari can be disliked for many things, but "recruiting too well" is what you are essentially disliking him for, and that is not one of those things. This is how it works at every school. If Cal had this problem, we would not think Monty was a scumbag. Teams should be as talented and deep as they can be. Injuries happen. Transfers happen. Early departures to the NBA happens. You think a coach should not recruit a player because that player is better than someone on his roster? That is the entire point of recruiting - to make your team better.

FrankBear21;842221525 said:

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Lee clearly made the wrong decision. Not saying cal would have been the right one, but playtime is better than practice. NBA scouts don't get to see him play and all they know us that he can't get time with a college team, so why would they waste their time on him. There are already so few spots in the NBA. At least at Cal he could showcase his skills week in and week out.

The poor guy is likely wasting his last years of basketball sitting on the bench in hopes that the NBA comes calling. Good luck with that. I honestly just feel bad for him. At least a cal education would have made him 20 grand more a year.

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Don't you think 2 games is a rather small sample size to determine what his playing time is going to be for the remainder of the season and thus whether he made the wrong decision in going to Kentucky? If Lee averages a minute per game for the rest of the season, then I agree with you that he clearly made the wrong decision. But at this point in the season, we still don't know if Lee made the right or wrong choice.

grandmastapoop;842221531 said:

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This is ridiculous.

Calipari can be disliked for many things, but "recruiting too well" is what you are essentially disliking him for, and that is not one of those things.

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We are going to disagree here. It is unethical not to fully indicate who you want and where you see a young man fitting into the program.

If you followed it, Lee was a fall signee. Randle, after breaking his foot, came back and signed with Kentucky in the Spring. It seem highly unlikely, given their understanding of the "game" and no long standing ties to Kentucky that Lee et. al. would have signed with Calipari if there was a clear signal that the Wildcats were still high on Randle and, even more so, that they intended to offer Okafor. We will never know but the circumstantial evidence suggests Calipari lied.

jyamada;842221540 said:

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Don't you think 2 games is a rather small sample size to determine what his playing time is going to be for the remainder of the season and thus whether he made the wrong decision in going to Kentucky? If Lee averages a minute per game for the rest of the season, then I agree with you that he clearly made the wrong decision. But at this point in the season, we still don't know if Lee made the right or wrong choice.

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Do you see him displacing Randle? Otherwise where do those minutes come from?

calumnus;842221406 said:

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Actually much of that was in response to the crap members of Cal nation threw Marcus's way. Just like if he were to come onto the site today and respond to this crap. He was mostly defending his brother and responding honestly to questions.

People here really thought the best way to "recruit" Marcus was to denigrate his ability, insult his intelligence and get into a pissing match with his family members? People should at least be respectful toward recruits and the family of recruits.

We could really use him as a transfer.

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+1

calumnus;842221450 said:

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A first round pick who had limited minutes on an elite team in an early game his freshman year?

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Michael Carter Williams (McD AA) was at end of rotation his Freshman year at Syracuse... then was one of their star players his soph year helping his team get to the Final 4 and then lotto pick this past June....so, that can well happen to ML. (I am not sayng he will be lotto pick, just saying he is competing against some of the best bigs in D1 daily in practice)... I do not hope ML transfers.... due to low PT, but stays at UK and compete for minutes. He chose UK and I want him to stay there and compete... The soon as I do not get exactly what I want, I pout and transfer... I do not encourage that or promote that type of behavior... Good luck to ML at UK... Those who wish ML fail at UK or laugh when he gets 1 minute of PT due to fact he did not choose Cal, my take? selfish narrow minded minds

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 1m
UK has too many posts,not enough true guards IMHO M.Lee's talent is totally wasted

gobears;842221574 said:

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Michael Carter Williams (McD AA) was at end of rotation his Freshman year at Syracuse... then was one of their star players his soph year helping his team get to the Final 4...so, that can well happen to ML. I do not hope ML transfers.... due to low PT, but stays at UK and compete for minutes. He chose UK and I want him to stay there and compete... The soon as I do not get exactly what I want, I pout and transfer... I do not encourage that or promote that type of behavior... Good luck to ML at UK... Those who wish ML fails at UK due to fact he did not choose Cal, my take? selfish narrow minded minds

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I was happy with Omar Wilkes transferring to Cal from Kansas, Jamal Boykin transferring to Cal from Duke, Justin Cobbs transferring to Cal from Minnesota and Ricky Kreklow transferring to Cal from Missouri so I am sure I'll be happy if Marcus Lee transfers to Cal from Kentucky as well.

MSaviolives;842221524 said:

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Where is Richard Lee when we need him?

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Think really hard about that question.

calumnus;842221587 said:

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I was happy with Omar Wilkes transferring to Cal from Kansas, Jamal Boykin transferring to Cal from Duke, Justin Cobbs transferring to Cal from Minnesota and Ricky Kreklow transferring to Cal from Missouri so I am sure I'll be happy if Marcus Lee transfers to Cal from Kentucky as well.

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And when a top ranked HS player chooses another school or a player decides to transfer from Cal, they are ridiculed and made fun of when their stat line is DNP, 1 for 5 from line, etc... When the student section makes fun of an opposing player after they shoot an air ball, now that is funny....

So, if Marcus Lee were on the Cal roster right now, what would the rotation be? Who amongst Kravish, Solo, Lee is NOT starting? We would be SET, but who would not be get the starting nod. THAT is a good question that I am prepared to debate no matter how you answer.

NYCGOBEARS;842221601 said:

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Think really hard about that question.

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Uhm, banned for promoting the idea of payouts, linking it to Cal alumni?

concordtom;842221836 said:

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So, if Marcus Lee were on the Cal roster right now, what would the rotation be? Who amongst Kravish, Solo, Lee is NOT starting?

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But here I believe Lee would see significant playing time right away, and would very likely start next year. And if for whatever reason the NBA didn't work out he'd have a Cal degree.

concordtom;842221836 said:

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So, if Marcus Lee were on the Cal roster right now, what would the rotation be? Who amongst Kravish, Solo, Lee is NOT starting? We would be SET, but who would not be get the starting nod. THAT is a good question that I am prepared to debate no matter how you answer.

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He and Bird would be first off the bench with Lee allowing Monty to have 2 bigs on the court at the same time.

Lee would probably transfer to UNLV if he left Kentucky.

goldfield9;842221921 said:

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Lee would probably transfer to UNLV if he left Kentucky.

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or SDSU. Fischer is building pretty well with transfers. Need cats to beat them tomorrow to help PAC-12 RPI

NYCGOBEARS;842221601 said:

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Think really hard about that question.

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Maybe we can get Richard to transfer.

socaltownie;842221922 said:

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or SDSU. Fischer is building pretty well with transfers. Need cats to beat them tomorrow to help PAC-12 RPI

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Go Aztecs! F' that smarmy cats coach.

socaltownie;842221922 said:

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or SDSU. Fischer is building pretty well with transfers. Need cats to beat them tomorrow to help PAC-12 RPI

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SDSU just signed their future power forward Malik Pope.

goldfield9;842221921 said:

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Lee would probably transfer to UNLV if he left Kentucky.

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Then to Oregon as a senior. :p

OaktownBear;842221504 said:

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As stupid as it sound that is exactly the argument that was made over and over and over. Not about practicing vs not playing as a frosh. It was about still being better off playing for UK rather than Cal even if he [U]NEVER played at UK[/U] because he would practice against the best. That was the argument.

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I don't recall anyone making that argument. If someone did, then nothing has changed, so perhaps they can reiterate it here.

concordtom;842221404 said:

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Dear FamilyFirst:

I tuned in to the Kentucky game specifically to see Marcus. I then simultaneously checked box scores on Kentucky's first two games. Great for him that he got 17 in that first game! Too bad he didn't get more minutes last night. It was fun to see the kid in action if even for 1 minute last night after we all had so much chatter (and hope) about him here.

You were very kind to grace us with your presence and explain the Lee thought process. It was, as I recall, more advantageous to practice against all those blue chip Kentucky guys day in and day out than against Kravish and Solo. You admitted, I felt, that the day to day grind of those Kentucky guys was more valuable training ground for Marcus' NBA potential than playing and starring for Cal in the Pac12 2x/week. That was a fair admission and, to me, the crux of the issue. There is no way I can determine which path will would be better, and so I watch the progress with great interest, however knowing I will never get to see the alternative (Cal) version and how it would have progressed.

Also, I do not recall you saying 1-and-done. Maybe you figured 2-and-done. Fair enough. We'll see how it goes, and I wish you all luck.

I have somewhat hated the idea of Kentucky (or any school) putting together a different breed of team so far and away above the talent level of the rest of the NCAA - it makes a mockery of the amateurism, student/athlete, concept. Then again, CBS/ESPN/PAC12NETWORK billions pretty much throws that concept out of the water anyways. I also somewhat have hated Coach Calipari and his smugness. Despite all this, I will have no problem rooting for Marcus Lee as one of our East Bay own. This, as opposed to Brandon Ashley, Aaron Gordon, or even that Duck PG who just got suspended for some reason (selling shoes?) - they apparently didn't even give us a nod, the bahstahds.

Best of luck to the one that got away.

PS: Just can't leave without saying it. DAMN! Can't you see how useful Marcus would have been in our lineup?!?!?! DOUBLE DAMN!
Tip o' the cap to Antipattern's note.

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[SIZE="2"][COLOR="Blue"]
All the guys you mention have little in common with the idea of STUDENT athletes ... they are in those programs to study BASKETBALL and nothing else !!! They see a program as a quick launching pad to professional basketball, not preparing them for another career OR "life after basketball" !! I hope Cal never becomes that kind of place and I'm willing to accept a team that's competitive and prepares our players for LIFE !!!
[/COLOR][/SIZE]

:Monty :cheer

socaltownie;842221543 said:

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Do you see him displacing Randle? Otherwise where do those minutes come from?

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No, Lee won't displace Randle but I don't see Randle averaging 35 minutes like he did against Michigan State. In Kentucky's first two games, Lee averaged about 15 minutes and Randle 28. I think this allocation of playing time will be more the norm than the exception. If these numbers hold out for the remainder of Lee's freshman year, I'm sure Lee will remain positive about his future at Kentucky with Randle being gone next year.

Here's a link to some banter between the infamous Willie Beamon and the board...

Including the statement "Wiltjer should be gone by then. Marcus will play the 5 there and Julius will be a 4. Just like Anthony Davis and Terence Jones. Cal just isn't the place to get a kid like him what he needs bottom line and nothing you guys say will change that."


http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=841967635#post841967635

Finally, here is the thread by family that probably answers the questions of why they chose UK.

http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=842116459#post842116459

jyamada;842222055 said:

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No, Lee won't displace Randle but I don't see Randle averaging 35 minutes like he did against Michigan State. In Kentucky's first two games, Lee averaged about 15 minutes and Randle 28. I think this allocation of playing time will be more the norm than the exception. If these numbers hold out for the remainder of Lee's freshman year, I'm sure Lee will remain positive about his future at Kentucky with Randle being gone next year.

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I guess, except that Poythress and Dakari Johnsonare already in the mix for bench minutes as well. The rotation in Kentucky's games 2 and 3 do not spell well for Marcus. Remember, it wasn't just Randle - Cal recruited Johnson over Marcus as well.

Look, I have nothing against HIM. I do think the advice provided by big brother - that PRACTICING against elite talent is better than PLAYING seems highly suspect. As the OP it was to point out that it seems Marcus's gambit is showing early signs of stress. I wish him well and honestly hope that he isn't stuck at Kentucky too long.

(PS. In a lot of ways coach Cal's challenge is very akin to being an NBA coach - he has to find minutes for his guys. That is why being outside of the top 7/8 in the rotation is such a pain - because the guys above you are REALLY going to pout if they don't get their shots that night.)

Ukrainian;842222031 said:

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[SIZE="2"][COLOR="Blue"]
All the guys you mention have little in common with the idea of STUDENT athletes ... they are in those programs to study BASKETBALL and nothing else !!! They see a program as a quick launching pad to professional basketball, not preparing them for another career OR "life after basketball" !! I hope Cal never becomes that kind of place and I'm willing to accept a team that's competitive and prepares our players for LIFE !!!
[/COLOR][/SIZE]

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Well, then, let's create a separate conference for them and they can have their own league, pay their players, and not try to pretend to be of the same ilk. Or we shouldn't try to be like them. Let's go Ivy.

SRBear;842222058 said:

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Finally, here is the thread by family that probably answers the questions of why they chose UK.

http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=842116459#post842116459

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Thank you. This first sentence which I've bolder is what I think is THE key read.

familyfirst2011;842116459 said:

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I hear the argument about playing time vs. practicing against pros argument a lot. Have you played in college? I have. And I personally feel that practicing against better players daily, and all summer, pushes you to be your best compared to being in a situation where you may get more individual coaching but aren't forced to compete at a ELITE level daily. You guys have to agree that shooting over WCS and Julius Randle is a level that Kravish and Solomon just CANT bring. No disrespect to their talent. I played all the minutes I wanted in college. But I made jumps in the summer when I played against pros. Solomon gets the freedom and now all he wants to do is jumpers. Development eh?

You guys are mistaken if you think Monty has some kind of genius coaching plan over most coaches. Assistant coaches handle most development. And if we're looking at assistants.. Cal's assistants were guards. UK's assistants are Kenny Payne and Antigua. Elite posts.

Marcus wanted to get better, play at the highest level and be pushed. UK went ALL in on him. They never waivered. They aren't planning to redshirt him. The kid will be just fine.

Don't be mad at anyone else that Monty doesn't want to play the recruiting game.

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familyfirst2011;842116508 said:

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I really didn't expect this response from you. But it's calming to see that your posts are actually thought out lol.

we never told Marcus he isn't smart or ambitious enough to pursue both. For what Marcus wanted out of this, UK was the best decision. Both are amazing opportunities. And while UK and Cal we're his final two, he could have went to ANY school in the country (except Stanford, due to lack of honors classes fresh and soph year.)

Summer ball did elevate my game. I understand you may think kids just play in the SF pro am, but there are opportunities to play in structured competitive games in the summer.

The goal is for Marcus to reach his potential. Not just to get to the NBA. We felt that long term he would be pushed the furthest out his comfort zone at UK. You may feel like he's a bench player but that's your opinion. I think it's an opportunity to fight for a position against great posts. And if he can put on the weight necessary, the skill level is there to play at any level he wants. If you've seen him play you've either seen him at Deer Valley (and we know their structure :/), AAU games where he Miles Simon coached (and Miles runs his offense through guards) or in all star games. I have seen and played at every level and I've been training Marcus since birth lol. I know what he is capable of.

If he gets hurt he gets hurt. It's something you deal with. UK is never pulling Marcus scholarship. So he will always have a degree. And if you glanced at my LinkedIn you've seen that I know my way around corporate america..

What are your thoughts on Solomon being academically ineligible last year? He hasn't gained weight or grown much as a player. And Cal hasn't graduated an african american player in Montgomery's tenure.. (Not quite Monty's fault)

Your turn..

There are positives and negatives on both sides. I actually commend Marcus for choosing a more difficult path. You guys keep saying he got bad advice. He's 18, we went through the pros and cons of both situations. Please don't question the intelligence of his family.

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concordtom;842222149 said:

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Thank you. This first sentence which I've bolder is what I think is THE key read.

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Seriously, in reading the sentences you bolded I have no clearer idea of what your point is. He sounds totally reasonable. Whatever your argument is I'm not sure you helped it.

antipattern;842222166 said:

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Seriously, in reading the sentences you bolded I have no clearer idea of what your point is. He sounds totally reasonable. Whatever your argument is I'm not sure you helped it.

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Sorry, i didn't make my point clear. I'm just pointing out the key reason, it seems, ML went to UK over Cal. SCT started this thread as a sort of bust on ML for ggetting only 1 minute vs Mich St. But, as we discussed long ago, it doesn't really matter from the Lee standpoint. Sure, they'd want to be playing, but in their comparison of playing vs practicing, they voted for the practice environment as a better training ground for the NBA. That was a question I had asked FF specifically. And he answered it.

I imagine it's a common question among recruits. Unfortunately, there is no definitive answer, as nobody gets to play both sides of it.

For me, I think I'd opt for being the sure fire big fish in small pond than risk being left behind. Either path could turn gold, but UK could blow up in your face while Cal's has a downside floor guarantee that is fairly high! But, I definitely respect the alternative viewpoint. it's the all in, high risk high reward move. Sometimes you can't afford to play it safe in life. And sometimes it's smart to protect your investment with covered calls.

concordtom;842222228 said:

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Sorry, i didn't make my point clear. I'm just pointing out the key reason, it seems, ML went to UK over Cal. SCT started this thread as a sort of bust on ML for ggetting only 1 minute vs Mich St. But, as we discussed long ago, it doesn't really matter from the Lee standpoint. Sure, they'd want to be playing, but in their comparison of playing vs practicing, they voted for the practice environment as a better training ground for the NBA. That was a question I had asked FF specifically. And he answered it.

I imagine it's a common question among recruits. Unfortunately, there is no definitive answer, as nobody gets to play both sides of it.

For me, I think I'd opt for being the sure fire big fish in small pond than risk being left behind. Either path could turn gold, but UK could blow up in your face while Cal's has a downside floor guarantee that is fairly high! But, I definitely respect the alternative viewpoint. it's the all in, high risk high reward move. Sometimes you can't afford to play it safe in life. And sometimes it's smart to protect your investment with covered calls.

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Both you and socaltownie have names of the form <placename><noun that starts with T-O> with no spaces or caps. I will admit that sometimes I get you mixed up, and this was one of those times. I see now why you weren't helping socaltownie's point: because you aren't him!

antipattern;842222241 said:

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Both you and socaltownie have names of the form <placename><noun that starts with T-O> with no spaces or caps. I will admit that sometimes I get you mixed up, and this was one of those times. I see now why you weren't helping socaltownie's point: because you aren't him!

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Though I lived in SD for a few years and liked it, he is SoCal and I am all NorCal! We did rip on monty's recruiting incessantly in unison about 2 or 3 years ago, however. But then after seeing MM turn his squad into top conference finishers anyways, I discovered that coaching often trumps talent and threw in the towel. I believe SCT has, too.