Lots of players carry the ball at times, but UCI's PG did it often in our game and it was blatant
Maybe the worst and most that I recall seeing

Don't believe me?
Watch the final play in regular before he makes his drive to the basket

Dude. I TOTALLY saw the same replay yesterday and thought the exact same thing!!!

it's Sam's favorite move!

Not a current point of emphasis, but according to the NCAA rulebook from 2009, this was the point of emphasis:

Palming (Illegal Dribble)
“Palming” or “carrying” the ball places the defensive player at a distinct
disadvantage while according the dribbler a sizeable advantage inconsistent
with the spirit and intent of the rules. The dribbler, who during a high
or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to rest and then pushes or
pulls the ball either to the side or in front of him commits an indefensible
violation that must be called.
“Palming” is an illegal maneuver. When the ball comes to rest in the
dribblers’ hand, by rule, the dribble has ended. Continuing to dribble after
the ball has come to rest in the hand is a violation that should be called and
eliminated from the skill of dribbling.

I think this is one of those rules that really shows when a ref is demonstrating a team or player bias.

I once played pick up ball with a pretty damn good kid from DC. Problem was he only had 1 hand. He used the other wrist nub to carry the ball thru traffic and help on his jumpshot. Obviously, he was severely hindered because of this, but he was very quick, athletic and fearless. He was featured as one of the top HS prep players, believe it or not.
I was his check and was a pretty good defender, for a 6' white guy, that is.

After enduring his antics all game, I finally caved - he was coming at me in the half-court set and he turned his hand over like he was going for the J, and so I closed in on him with hands up. He then put the ball back down on the ground and dribbled past me for a layup. I was like, "come on, man, that's traveling." And he was like, "what are you talking about?"
I just shook my head and kept playing. How do you call out a 1 handed player for that?!?! LOL...

BeachedBear;842763424 said:

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Not a current point of emphasis, but according to the NCAA rulebook from 2009, this was the point of emphasis:

Palming (Illegal Dribble)
"Palming" or "carrying" the ball places the defensive player at a distinct
disadvantage while according the dribbler a sizeable advantage inconsistent
with the spirit and intent of the rules. The dribbler, who during a high
or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to rest and then pushes or
pulls the ball either to the side or in front of him commits an indefensible
violation that must be called.
"Palming" is an illegal maneuver. When the ball comes to rest in the
dribblers' hand, by rule, the dribble has ended. Continuing to dribble after
the ball has come to rest in the hand is a violation that should be called and
eliminated from the skill of dribbling.

I think this is one of those rules that really shows when a ref is demonstrating a team or player bias.

---

Thanks for quoting from the 2009 NCAA rule. I wonder what the current rule is?

What you said about bias might be true if palming was called once in a while in games. I can't remember the last time I saw palming called in a game. Maybe I have a selective memory, but it has been years since I saw it. I think that the rule may not exist or that officials have been told by the governing body not to call it. UrsaMajor disagrees with me, and thinks there is a different interpretation now, if I understood his point correctly. I remember going to the library and looking in the NBA Rule Book during the Magic Johnson era, and I was unable to find any rule against palming in that rule book. I just figured that palming leads to more offense. Offense and crossover moves sell tickets and thus the palming rules were assigned to the dustbin of history. The NCAA lagged behind, but they are going down the same road, IMO.

SFCityBear;842763900 said:

---

Thanks for quoting from the 2009 NCAA rule. I wonder what the current rule is?

What you said about bias might be true if palming was called once in a while in games. I can’t remember the last time I saw palming called in a game. Maybe I have a selective memory, but it has been years since I saw it. I think that the rule may not exist or that officials have been told by the governing body not to call it. UrsaMajor disagrees with me, and thinks there is a different interpretation now, if I understood his point correctly. I remember going to the library and looking in the NBA Rule Book during the Magic Johnson era, and I was unable to find any rule against palming in that rule book. I just figured that palming leads to more offense. Offense and crossover moves sell tickets and thus the palming rules were assigned to the dustbin of history. The NCAA lagged behind, but they are going down the same road, IMO.

---

Apropos of your post, SFCB, you should have seen Kevin Durant last night against the Celtics take about 3 of his long steps before he bounced the ball and then put up a beautiful shot that was counted, while the crowd roared with boos.

As much as I love watching him--a super addition to the Warriors--I was amazed that the refs missed his obvious travel.

I used my highly developed investigative skills to find the NCAA rulebook for 2016-17 on this thing called the World Wide Web or something like that. And yes, it is a rule.

"Art. 4. The dribble ends when:a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come torest in one or both hands;b. The dribbler touches the ball with both hands simultaneously;c. An opponent bats the ball; ord. The ball becomes dead."

You can find the entire thing here:
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BR17.pdf

SFCityBear;842763900 said:

---

Thanks for quoting from the 2009 NCAA rule. I wonder what the current rule is?

What you said about bias might be true if palming was called once in a while in games. I can’t remember the last time I saw palming called in a game. Maybe I have a selective memory, but it has been years since I saw it. I think that the rule may not exist or that officials have been told by the governing body not to call it. UrsaMajor disagrees with me, and thinks there is a different interpretation now, if I understood his point correctly. I remember going to the library and looking in the NBA Rule Book during the Magic Johnson era, and I was unable to find any rule against palming in that rule book. I just figured that palming leads to more offense. Offense and crossover moves sell tickets and thus the palming rules were assigned to the dustbin of history. The NCAA lagged behind, but they are going down the same road, IMO.

---

SFCityBear;842763900 said:

---

Thanks for quoting from the 2009 NCAA rule. I wonder what the current rule is?

What you said about bias might be true if palming was called once in a while in games. I can’t remember the last time I saw palming called in a game. Maybe I have a selective memory, but it has been years since I saw it. I think that the rule may not exist or that officials have been told by the governing body not to call it. UrsaMajor disagrees with me, and thinks there is a different interpretation now, if I understood his point correctly. I remember going to the library and looking in the NBA Rule Book during the Magic Johnson era, and I was unable to find any rule against palming in that rule book. I just figured that palming leads to more offense. Offense and crossover moves sell tickets and thus the palming rules were assigned to the dustbin of history. The NCAA lagged behind, but they are going down the same road, IMO.

---

When I tried (and failed) to consider a career as a ref, I remember speaking with Richie Ballesteros (who some of you may remember) about 'palming' and carrying' and being flabbergasted by his explanation about what is carrying or palming. This was at the time that 'cross'over' dribbling was being encouraged and I was trying to sort how it wasn't palming half of the time. Here is the applicable rule (4, section 13), which hasn't changed in almost forever....

Art. 4. The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come to
rest in one or both hands;
b. The dribbler touches the ball with both hands simultaneously;
c. An opponent bats the ball; or
d. The ball becomes dead.

The key argument is 'allowing it to come to rest'. As it was explained to me in the 90s - touching it (even with your palm) to change direction is OK. But to my earlier point about bias, it is like holding in football. If a ref had a bias against a player and really wanted to tick him off, it could be called almost every time. I think I saw it called on Tyrone in the last couple of years, and the exchange of looks said a lot ("Are you kidding me", "Yes - I'm in control", "Fine, this bs", "Yes it is - now shut up and play").

bluesaxe;842764625 said:

---

I used my highly developed investigative skills to find the NCAA rulebook for 2016-17 on this thing called the World Wide Web or something like that. And yes, it is a rule.

"Art. 4. The dribble ends when:a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come torest in one or both hands;b. The dribbler touches the ball with both hands simultaneously;c. An opponent bats the ball; ord. The ball becomes dead."

You can find the entire thing here:
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BR17.pdf

---

Thanks for looking that up and posting the link.

The rule you quoted is a definition, not by itself a violation. I looked further in your link, and I could find nothing in Section 9 on Violations and Penalties to specifically prohibit palming and what the penalty would be for doing so, unless the player is called for a double dribble. The referee would determine if the ball had come to rest by palming or carrying it, ending the dribble in his mind. Then if the player continued to dribble, he would be called for double dribble as a violation and the ball would be awarded to the defensive team to inbound at the nearest spot to where the violation occurred. At least that is how I understand your link. Come to think of it, I did see a player called for double dribble in a recent game, but I wasn't paying close attention to see whether it was because he palmed the ball or not. Double dribble is seldom called today, and players are getting away with palming nearly all the time. I still feel the rules are being ignored to benefit the dribbler over the defender.

BeachedBear;842764632 said:

---

When I tried (and failed) to consider a career as a ref, I remember speaking with Richie Ballesteros (who some of you may remember) about 'palming' and carrying' and being flabbergasted by his explanation about what is carrying or palming. This was at the time that 'cross'over' dribbling was being encouraged and I was trying to sort how it wasn't palming half of the time. Here is the applicable rule (4, section 13), which hasn't changed in almost forever....

Art. 4. The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come to
rest in one or both hands;
b. The dribbler touches the ball with both hands simultaneously;
c. An opponent bats the ball; or
d. The ball becomes dead.

The key argument is 'allowing it to come to rest'. As it was explained to me in the 90s - touching it (even with your palm) to change direction is OK. But to my earlier point about bias, it is like holding in football. If a ref had a bias against a player and really wanted to tick him off, it could be called almost every time. I think I saw it called on Tyrone in the last couple of years, and the exchange of looks said a lot ("Are you kidding me", "Yes - I'm in control", "Fine, this bs", "Yes it is - now shut up and play").

---

I seem to remember being taught never to allow any part of my hand to touch the ball below the horizontal equator of the ball, or I would be called for palming or carrying the ball. I don't know if that was the rule in 1955, or it was just how we were taught to play by coaches. In my day, the referees all had a hand signal for palming, which was an exaggeration of palming, placing their hand with palm facing upward, and raising it vertically a foot or more, and then turning it over, palm facing downward, and quickly lowering the hand toward the floor emphatically. I haven't seen that used in many years.

There are lawyers behind every bush, and they have gotten into basketball as well. It is fine to define when the dribble ends, but I'd like to see these basketball lawyers state that palming is a violation, and should not be subject to interpretation, only to the official's judgment and eyesight. Did he see the player commit the violation or not? I can dream.

I understand now what you meant about the opportunity for a referee to show bias. Thanks.

Odd. Technically, it is a double dribble since you can't dribble after terminating a dribble without some other intervening event. However, I've seen the palming sign you refer to this year in an NBA game.

SFCityBear;842765564 said:

---

I seem to remember being taught never to allow any part of my hand to touch the ball below the horizontal equator of the ball, or I would be called for palming or carrying the ball. I don't know if that was the rule in 1955, or it was just how we were taught to play by coaches. In my day, the referees all had a hand signal for palming, which was an exaggeration of palming, placing their hand with palm facing upward, and raising it vertically a foot or more, and then turning it over, palm facing downward, and quickly lowering the hand toward the floor emphatically. I haven't seen that used in many years.

There are lawyers behind every bush, and they have gotten into basketball as well. It is fine to define when the dribble ends, but I'd like to see these basketball lawyers state that palming is a violation, and should not be subject to interpretation, only to the official's judgment and eyesight. Did he see the player commit the violation or not? I can dream.

I understand now what you meant about the opportunity for a referee to show bias. Thanks.

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