All-Time Cal Basketball Team

Big C
How long do you want to ignore this user?
concordtom;842837031 said:

By the way:

Leonard Taylor: 6'8"
Brian Hendrick: 6'9"
Ainsley Truitt: 6'9"
Darall Imhoff: 6'10"
Bob Presley: 6'10.5"
Mark McNamara: 6'11"

Whomever mentioned Leonard Taylor at center.... not tall enough. Sorry...

Al Grigsby was 6'9", too.


Not to mention that Leonard Taylor was the same 6'8" that Leon Powe and Harper Kamp were, i.e. 6'6.5"... max.

(good college PF though, especially sr. year when he was hitting his face-up jumper from 15-18 ft)
mbBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RichyBear;842836573 said:

Plus 100.

I'd go a step further. Dick Dougherty (sp), Imhoff's backup, would start ahead of many centers who started for Cal since, especially the 2 we now have. I was still in high school when these guys played, but I watch some of the games on tv. On a Friday-Saturday set of games against Stanford, Imhoff got in foul trouble in both games. Dougherty played most of the 2 games and made player of the week.


I'm not a big fan of comparing from different eras, but Imhoff translates well when you talk about the centers he played against as in the NBA.
I would also add: Doug True would translate better in today's game than he did in his own time. He was a stretched 4 way back then...
concordtom
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I think the summation of all this is that Cal has no one true 7 foot dominant center for our all star team. Granted, not all schools do, though some have several.
I'll say that it's the weakest position amongst our teams off all-timer all-stars.
I'd also say that that can be rectified with the inclusion of Jordan Brown next year - but they tell me he's a stretch 4???

Still dreamin'.
-Tom
concordtom
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Okay, okay.
I take it back.
1 NCAA championship trumps all else. I'm not going to punt all that for some high school junior stretch 4.
Mr. Imhoff, my apologies.
Take off your sweats and win that tip-off!

Consider it a mistake of my youth and ignorance.
BeachedBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Lots of ways to spin these lists. All-star (collection of biggest stars). Best 5 vs Best 10. Best at each position; classic 1-5 vs modern game. Most entertaining....

Since this is all just fun, I like to put together five (vs 7 or 8 or 10) and think of which group would be an actual team (vs having 3 center and 2 PGs for example). I'd also stick to my eye test criteria - meaning players that I actually saw play significant games. I know this doesn't do justice to pre-Kutchen players, but I simply didn't get a chance to watch them play as individuals or on a team. No disrespect - simply lack of personal data input. So here's two lists from BeachedBear:

Most Entertaining:

Jason Kidd (best passer and defender that I've seen wear a Cal uni and really crafty)
Ed Gray (best scorer - and always seemed to be having fun)
Lamond Murray (he just made it look so easy - and always focused)
Leon Powe (hard guy not to love on and off the court)
MSF (loved his heart and facial expressions - very entertaining IMHO)

Best team to compete in 2018 P12 (assuming players at their college peak at Cal).

Jason Kidd
Richard Midgley
Lamond Murray
Shareef Abdur Rahim
Yogi Stewart


For this I wanted a team that complements each other and can compete at a pace and athleticism to knock off current/recent Oregon, Arizona and UCLA rosters. Thus a team that can move the ball, play smart, play good D and protect the rim and glass. Shareef only played a year and was the last name I put on this list, but his versatility won out over Anderson, Lampley and a healthy Grigsby. I am a big fan of Leon Powe - but at his peak as a Cal player, he was more of a 'carry the weight on my shoulders' vs 'ball movement, balanced offense/defense' player for todays game (his Celtics version would probably make my team, though).
bruab
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Yogi gets a lot of love on this thread but really he was lost on the offence. I would put Rabb on the team ahead of him (and Hendricks who was awesome as a freshman). Don't sleep on Ivan - most complete Cal post player since Reef.
BeachedBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bruab;842837098 said:

Yogi gets a lot of love on this thread but really he was lost on the offence. I would put Rabb on the team ahead of him (and Hendricks who was awesome as a freshman). Don't sleep on Ivan - most complete Cal post player since Reef.


Not sure if you were responding to my post or not.... assuming you were, here is my rationale for Yogi over Rabb (for the best team, not player).

First off, my mind was stuck in the past - so I didn't even consider Rabb. However, the reasons I put Yogi on my list still prevail. Along with the other 4 players, I felt his game complemented them the best for today's game. To win the P12 in 2018, I feel you need a team that is flexible, athletic and probably playing a 4-1 offense where the man in the middle (Yogi) is primarily there for rim protection, rebounding, defense and layups on offense. That sort of fits into Yogi's strengths. Yogi also had the mental makeup to be more of a role-player alongside the others I mentioned.

In comparison to Rabb (which I foolishly overlooked), the only two issues I have with Ivan compared to Yogi is that a) he was not as effective closing out on the perimeter as Yogi (which often took Ivan out of the defensive rotation), and b) He seemed to suffer from not being the focus of the team. That last point is more of a knock on the recent team and not on Ivan. Probably just some bad aftertaste. FWIW, I'm also comparing Yogi in his prime - not his freshman and sophomore seasons. Rabb was far ahead of Yogi as a complete player.

Anyway, if you were responding to another post.... carry-on. I'm just bloviating.....
UrsaMajor
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Among Cal centers, Yogi and Kiwi had the 2 best NBA careers. Of course, I assume this thread is about how they played at Cal...
MSaviolives
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BeachedBear;842837110 said:

Not sure if you were responding to my post or not.... assuming you were, here is my rationale for Yogi over Rabb (for the best team, not player).

First off, my mind was stuck in the past - so I didn't even consider Rabb. However, the reasons I put Yogi on my list still prevail. Along with the other 4 players, I felt his game complemented them the best for today's game. To win the P12 in 2018, I feel you need a team that is flexible, athletic and probably playing a 4-1 offense where the man in the middle (Yogi) is primarily there for rim protection, rebounding, defense and layups on offense. That sort of fits into Yogi's strengths. Yogi also had the mental makeup to be more of a role-player alongside the others I mentioned.

In comparison to Rabb (which I foolishly overlooked), the only two issues I have with Ivan compared to Yogi is that a) he was not as effective closing out on the perimeter as Yogi (which often took Ivan out of the defensive rotation), and b) He seemed to suffer from not being the focus of the team. That last point is more of a knock on the recent team and not on Ivan. Probably just some bad aftertaste. FWIW, I'm also comparing Yogi in his prime - not his freshman and sophomore seasons. Rabb was far ahead of Yogi as a complete player.

Anyway, if you were responding to another post.... carry-on. I'm just bloviating.....


Oh but the idea of Jason Kidd getting the ball to Ivan...and with the need for the opponent also to cover Midley, Murray and Raheem on your team...Ivan would do just fine I think
concordtom
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bruab;842837098 said:

Yogi gets a lot of love on this thread but really he was lost on the offence. I would put Rabb on the team ahead of him (and Hendricks who was awesome as a freshman). Don't sleep on Ivan - most complete Cal post player since Reef.


Rabb did one thing better than all others: Offensive rebounds. His D-board work was also excellent, actually. Good timing and great hands!
I'd rather post up Ryan Anderson than Rabb. And others, like Shareef, and Powe, and ...
And there are other guys I'd probably take as defenders.
concordtom
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Hey, found this.

the website
http://tightwad-hill.blogspot.com/
ran a rundown of it's top 16 Cal hoops players of all time:

It began in late 2006 and update articles (and names revealed) ran thru to March 2007.
(Click on player names for an article about the player.)

16. Alfred Grigsby
15. Phil Chenier
14. Shareef Abdur-Rahim
13. Brian Hendrick
12. George Dixon
11. Larry Friend
10. Ed Gray
9. Russ Crutchfield
8. Andy Wolfe
7. Leon Powe
6.
5.
4.
3.
2.
1.

Sadly, I could not find the top 6 of this guy's list.

Then I found this post:

[INDENT]Wednesday, March 28, 2007
[U]MIA[/U]
Apologies for the lack of posts this week - real life occasionally gets in the way of obsessive sports blogging. I'll have something up on the Final Four before the weekend, as well as a look at Cal's defensive line in '07. Take care and Go Bears!!![/INDENT]

Ever more tragically, in May of 2007, the author of "TH" posted the following:
[INDENT]Friday, May 11, 2007
[U]FAREWELL....FOR NOW
[/U]As I'm sure you all could tell, I've had to shut down TH for the foreseeable future. In fairness to our readers, the deal is that I have had to deal with a family issue that requires my regular attention. That, plus the rest of real life, leaves very little time for blogging. And, frankly, my heart's not in it - or, more precisely, it needs to be somewhere else.

My apologies to all of you who have come to depend on TH for Cal news and opinion. My hope and expectation is to have something back up by the summer (July-ish), but right now it's a bit out of my hands and hard to forecast. From now until then, or whenever - good luck to all TH readers, and GO BEARS!!!
posted by Tightwad @ 7:17 AM
161 comments
[/INDENT]

Okay, so, aside from that hilarious "I Quit" letter, let's fill in the blanks with the top 6 players from TH's list as of March 2007.
Who wants to GFTW?
joe amos yaks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
1. Jason Kidd
2. Ryan Anderson
3. Ivan Rabb
4. Allen Crabbe
5. Lamond Murray
6. Yogi Stewart

What do you do with Amit Tamir, Charles Johnson, Jackie Ridgel, John Coughran, Lamond Murray, Randle, ~~~...?

**edit: Jorge Gutierrez
south bender
How long do you want to ignore this user?
joe yaks;842837262 said:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Ryan Anderson
3. Ivan Rabb
4. Allen Crabbe
5. Lamond Murray
6. Yogi Stewart

What do you do with Amit Tamir, Charles Johnson, Jackie Ridgel, John Coughran, Randle, ~~~...?


You've one guard, Jason. Jorge should be with that group.
joe amos yaks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
south bender;842837298 said:

You've one guard, Jason. Jorge should be with that group.


Yep. My error put Jorge Gutierrez in that group of 6:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Ryan Anderson
3. Jorge Gutierrez
4. Ivan Rabb
5. Allen Crabbe
6. Yogi Stewart
mbBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
joe yaks;842837300 said:

Yep. My error put Jorge Gutierrez in that group of 6:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Ryan Anderson
3. Jorge Gutierrez
4. Ivan Rabb
5. Allen Crabbe
6. Yogi Stewart


So these are guys you like right? Not really a "best" list? I understand the Jorge love, but him over Ransom and Chenier? Yogi over Imhoff?! And maybe its penalizing him for only two years, but I don't vote for Rabb because of what he potentially could have been....Doug True gets my vote over Rabb, and I could be missing someone here.
Everyone has an opinion, and these lists are a bit futile, i get that. But I think maybe we all need the qualifier "of the guys that I saw...."
concordtom
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Thanks for playing, guys, and I'm sorry to be a nit, but the original article was written in 2007, so you cannot have more recent guys like Jorge, Crabbe, Randle, Ryan Anderson....

Please try to fill it out again based on that.
Let me spot you one that you've missed so far: Kevin Johnson

Then, if you'd like, fill out your own Sweet Sixteen thru 2017.
Jeff82
How long do you want to ignore this user?
First Five: Point, Jason Kidd; Shooting Guard, Kevin Johnson; Shooting Forward, Ed Gray; Power Forward, Ivan Rabb; Center, Bob Presley

Second Five: Point, Gene Ransom; Shooting Guard, Russ Critchfield; Shooting Forward, Shareef Abdur-Rahim; Power Forward, Leon Powe; Center, Mark McNamara or Darrell Imhoff.
UrsaMajor
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I an see Yogi over Imhoff only because he had a far better NBA career (personally, I'd take Imhoff); I can also see Jorge over Ransom, maybe. But not over Chenier. Not sure Crabbe is a top-6 either. Really? Crabbe and Jorge over KJ (an NBA all-star)???
joe amos yaks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
mbBear;842837311 said:

So these are guys you like right? Not really a "best" list? I understand the Jorge love, but him over Ransom and Chenier? Yogi over Imhoff?! And maybe its penalizing him for only two years, but I don't vote for Rabb because of what he potentially could have been....Doug True gets my vote over Rabb, and I could be missing someone here.
Everyone has an opinion, and these lists are a bit futile, i get that. But I think maybe we all need the qualifier "of the guys that I saw...."


Nope. Just trying to complete the list. Listing them or puting them in order? Thanks for Ransom...watched him from Berktown thru uNv. Saw Phil Chenier from Berktown thru Baltimore. And Doug True from Alameda, but I'd guess we'd also have to add Earl Schultz or Tandy Gillis.

Yes, I saw Imhoff and liked his work. A Coach Newell project who became a dominant contributor. Sign him up.

Do you prefer natural talent and "heart" or do you prefer most improved? Bob Presley the "big enigma".
joe amos yaks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
concordtom;842837315 said:

Thanks for playing, guys, and I'm sorry to be a nit, but the original article was written in 2007, so you cannot have more recent guys like Jorge, Crabbe, Randle, Ryan Anderson....

Please try to fill it out again based on that.
Let me spot you one that you've missed so far: Kevin Johnson

Then, if you'd like, fill out your own Sweet Sixteen thru 2017.


<2007 -- Well now...so I'd add Kidd, KJ, Ransom, MMcN, Imhoff, Stewart with a touch of LMurray and Ridgel and Coughran and CJ....and maybe a little David Butler.
LOUMFSG2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
As to the missing six from the 2007 list, I would think the six come from this group (listed alphabetically):

Darrall Imhoff
Kevin Johnson
Jason Kidd
Sean Lampley
Bob McKeen
Mark McNamara
Lamond Murray
Bob Presley
Jackie Ridgle
Ansley Truitt

I would think Kidd, KJ and Imhoff made the list (their jerseys are in the rafters, and they are "faces" of the program). The other three probably came from McKeen, McNamara, Presley, Ridgle and Truitt, although Lampley was the all-time leading scorer at the time, and Lamond was great as well. I might have had some of the four from this group of ten that didn't make the top six somewhere in the list from 7 to 16.

Since I don't go back that far as a Cal fan, for those that saw them play, which three from McKeen, McNamara, Presley, Ridgle and Truitt should I add to my top six?
LOUMFSG2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I'm going to guess the last three on the list were McKeen, McNamara and Ridgle.
Jeff82
How long do you want to ignore this user?
UrsaMajor;842837350 said:

I an see Yogi over Imhoff only because he had a far better NBA career (personally, I'd take Imhoff); I can also see Jorge over Ransom, maybe. But not over Chenier. Not sure Crabbe is a top-6 either. Really? Crabbe and Jorge over KJ (an NBA all-star)???


I might put him over Clean Gene on my second five, although you're really evaluating on his pro career, since he only played one year at Cal.
UrsaMajor
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Ed Gray was 6-2. No way he's a forward. I'd take Lamond there. Your starting five is awfully short...I'd also take Imhoff over Presley.
Jeff82
How long do you want to ignore this user?
UrsaMajor;842837393 said:

Ed Gray was 6-2. No way he's a forward. I'd take Lamond there. Your starting five is awfully short...I'd also take Imhoff over Presley.


6'3", 210. He played at the three in college. As for Presley, I barely saw him play, and didn't see Imhoff play at all. But he had 55 rebounds in a game, and was an imposing physical presence, based on people who did. He could have been a pro, were it not for his mental difficulties. Given the mix of players from different eras on this type of team, I'd take him over Imhoff. I think Gray was a better shooter than Lamond, and this team already has a slasher in Kidd. Gray gives you the spot-up option from 3.
SFCityBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
concordtom;842835947 said:

No, I did not.
But I am disrespecting his era, sorry to say.


Concord Tom,

You are disrespecting Imhoff’s era. Just like you always seem to do.

You may not know this but you, and a few others like you, who disrespect Imhoff’s era, are the sole reason I began posting on the Bear Insider. You and the few others have an agenda, and that ranges from only promoting the modern game and its players over past eras, to overlooking evidence, to ridiculing, denigrating, and insulting those players and their game, their coaches and even their fans. You are not the worst offender. That would be “concerned parent”, who not long ago stated “any high school team today would blow the Cal ’59 team out of the gym”, or something like that. You are, however, the most persistent, periodically starting “best all time team” threads, so you can put down players of long ago, by not even considering them, because they are too small, too unathletic, and now, not experienced enough. I finally felt I had had enough, and had to say something in defense of the old players’ reputations, so I started posting, mostly in vain, because there is no changing your mind about something you never saw. You watch a 56 second video of cherry-picked moments from the 1959 NCAA Final, and then you think you know everything about those players, the team, the coach, and the era.

Quote:

The pool of players these days is much bigger,......


The pool of recruits and transfers today does include some foreign players, I’ll give you that, but the pool of players was bigger in Imhoff’s era than it is today. There are so few kids playing basketball today compared to Imhoff’s day. Back then, most or every high school in Bay Area cities had five boys’ basketball teams all with 15 or more players each: a 110 lb team, a 120 lb team, a 130 lb team, a junior varsity team, and a varsity team. As players matured, they usually moved up the ranks to the varsity. At the same time, Cal had a frosh team, a junior varsity team, and a varsity team, with a total of 45-50 players on scholarship each year, and most PCC schools had similar programs.

Kids today have so many distractions to take them away from basketball: They have much more homework to do, plus extra-curricular activities to help them get into college, extra tutoring, skateboards, computers, video games, and the big culprit: cell phones. I go to just about any playground, baseball diamond, gymnasium, anywhere in the Bay Area, and I see very little basketball being played. When I was a kid, the high school and middle school gyms were all open at night for games, and the playgrounds were all filled with kids trying to get into a basketball game. I never ever see a kid on the street now, coming home from school, dribbling a basketball. That kid today is always on his phone.

The distraction for kids in my day was other sports. Most kids played at least 2 sports. At Cal, many great athletes played 2 or 3 sports: Grover Klemmer set the world track record at 400 meters, and played football and basketball at Cal. Jackie Jensen was a Major League baseball star, and played baseball and was All-American at football. Cliff Mayne was a fine tennis player and basketball player as well. Bob Albo started on the Cal basketball team and was the catcher on the baseball team. Joe Kapp was an All-American in football and played on the basketball team as well. Today, two-sport athletes are rare. More and more kids are playing soccer, while the basketball pool is dwindling. Black kids are not playing baseball much now, and their ranks in the Major Leagues are decreasing.

Quote:

(the pool) includes all races,


The pool in Imhoff’s day did include all races, except at some schools, like Cal. In 1955 and 1956, USF started 3 blacks on their NCAA Championship teams, and had more on the bench. When Cal faced Seattle in the Western Regional in 1958, Seattle started 3 blacks as I remember. When Cal faced St Marys in the NCAA Western Regional in 1959, St Marys started 3 blacks. In 1963, a black friend of mine, Steve Gray, was an All-American at St Marys. Cal’s admission standards were high, but Cal’s administration did nothing to help blacks gain admission, and many alumni did not want black players. Pete Newell recruited three black players, but two flunked out and one, Earl Robinson, made All-Conference. He also played baseball and was signed by the Orioles. In San Francisco, all the high schools and middle schools schools had both black and asian players. Basketball beyond high school has always discriminated against the short player, and as a result, not many Asians play college basketball. Years ago, before Pete Newell, Cal had a 145 lb team, where many good asian players found a place to play the sport they loved.

Quote:

....and have played way more games before getting to college than anyone did way back then, not to mention the amount of ball played DURING college in the off season and such. Therefore, guys today are usually taller, better athletes, and more experienced.


I doubt this as well. In high school, in the off season, I played for four different teams. I had a game nearly every other night somewhere, and sometimes two games in the same day. And by the way, playing more games does not mean you automatically are becoming a better player. It is the level you play at, the coaching you get, and how determined you are that makes you try and get better. Quality, not quantity, is what matters. You can practice a faulty free throw stroke until you are blue in the face, but that will not make you better. You need to learn a better stroke.
Big C
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Jerome Randle needs more love here, especially in the later parts of the thread. People are too influenced by how far players got in the NBA. Randle had an EXCELLENT year as a college senior.
SFCityBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
concordtom;842836952 said:

Good discussion.
Thanks, y'all.

SFCity, even though I never saw him play, I'll buy all you say about imhoff's talents and abilities. But civil bear hit the nail on the head - what on earth are you doing even considering comparing imhoff to K2 in order to emphasize his greatness? Big mistake. You raised better compares with mcnamara and Truit, then Presley, Powe, Hendrick and Taylor. Now you're talking! But I only go back as far as McNamara, so try it and Presley are ? to me.......


Concord Tom,

YOU are the one who made the first comparison, and continually make these comparisons, by generalizing about whole generations, marginalizing and ridiculing players and teams you never saw. When people say things like the players of yesteryear could not play today, I respond with a specific comparison with a player on the team you ridicule, Imhoff, with Cal's centers of last year, K2. What, you can compare by generalizing, and I'm not allowed to make a specific comparison to dispute what you write?

Are you old enough to have seen Julius Erving? He's been retired 30 years. Was he athletic enough for you? He was at the recent PAC12 tournament, and he was asked by the announcer, "How do you like the athleticism of these modern players? Would they compare with your era?" Doctor J replied with a frown, "Well yes, they are athletic, but we were not allowed to do many of the things these players are allowed to do today." Translation: Allowed to charge, walk with the ball, carry the ball, and there is no hand checking allowed to stop them. The two games are different, different rules, requiring a different type of athlete, different skills and moves.

Oscar Robertson created a fuss when he dared to say no one today knows how to guard Stephen Curry, and described how he would do it. Jim Barnett recently said in an interview that as a player, he was a good defender and very quick, and he would love to be 28 again and see if he could defend Russell Westbrook. Wilt Chamberlain was interviewed by Bill Russell and was asked, "Wilt, you averaged 50 points one season. How many points could you average in today's game? Wilt replied, "Oh, about 75." Russell did not disagree. Actually, I saw Wilt get 75 one night at the Cow Palace against the Lakers, including a number of what would have been three-pointers today. I'm not saying anything much different from what these great pros are saying. If you can't believe me, maybe you can consider what they say. Many of them think they could play today, and so do I. Many of them question whether today's player could play as well under the more restrictive rules of the game prior to 1985.
KoreAmBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I'll take Harper Kamp as the glue guy.
Civil Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SFCityBear;842837413 said:

Concord Tom,

YOU are the one who made the first comparison, and continually make these comparisons, by generalizing about whole generations, marginalizing and ridiculing players and teams you never saw. When people say things like the players of yesteryear could not play today, I respond with a specific comparison with a player on the team you ridicule, Imhoff, with Cal’s centers of last year, K2. What, you can compare by generalizing, and I’m not allowed to make a specific comparison to dispute what you write?

The problem is CT didn't say that. He said guys today are [U]usually[/U] taller, better athletes, and more experienced. I'm sure you realize that doesn't mean he is referring to [U]all[/U] of today's players, or that he is saying [U]none[/U] of the players from your era could hang with today's players.

But CT slighted Imhoff in your mind, so you compare his greatness against a couple of mediocre centers that CT also left off his list? And then call him out for blowing smoke? Ridiculous.
concordtom
How long do you want to ignore this user?
LOUMFSG2;842837380 said:

As to the missing six from the 2007 list, I would think the six come from this group (listed alphabetically):

Darrall Imhoff
Kevin Johnson
Jason Kidd
Sean Lampley
Bob McKeen
Mark McNamara
Lamond Murray
Bob Presley
Jackie Ridgle
Ansley Truitt

I would think Kidd, KJ and Imhoff made the list (their jerseys are in the rafters, and they are "faces" of the program). The other three probably came from McKeen, McNamara, Presley, Ridgle and Truitt, although Lampley was the all-time leading scorer at the time, and Lamond was great as well. I might have had some of the four from this group of ten that didn't make the top six somewhere in the list from 7 to 16.

Since I don't go back that far as a Cal fan, for those that saw them play, which three from McKeen, McNamara, Presley, Ridgle and Truitt should I add to my top six?


Excellent review of filling in the blanks.
Go to the head of the class, Lou!

Seems that the Tightwad Hill author would have been forced to leave off some really good players as a result of his taking some yesteryear players in #7-#16 listing. Maybe that's why he never finished the list - he had backed himself into a corner. And out of shame and finding no other tenable solution, quit writing altogether.

You have unravelled the mystery.
concordtom
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SFCityBear;842837399 said:

Concord Tom,

You are disrespecting Imhoff’s era. Just like you always seem to do.

You may not know this but you, and a few others like you, who disrespect Imhoff’s era, are the sole reason I began posting on the Bear Insider. You and the few others have an agenda, and that ranges from only promoting the modern game and its players over past eras, to overlooking evidence, to ridiculing, denigrating, and insulting those players and their game, their coaches and even their fans. You are not the worst offender. That would be “concerned parent”, who not long ago stated “any high school team today would blow the Cal ’59 team out of the gym”, or something like that. You are, however, the most persistent, periodically starting “best all time team” threads, so you can put down players of long ago, by not even considering them, because they are too small, too unathletic, and now, not experienced enough. I finally felt I had had enough, and had to say something in defense of the old players’ reputations, so I started posting, mostly in vain, because there is no changing your mind about something you never saw. You watch a 56 second video of cherry-picked moments from the 1959 NCAA Final, and then you think you know everything about those players, the team, the coach, and the era.



I don't think I can create the correct intonation with just 26 letters, but, "Daaa'aaaaammmm!"

Dude, you are simply so wrong in your assessment of me. I do not have "An Agenda". That's laughable. I particularly do not have "An Agenda" which aims to insult older players, coaches, fans. Please tell me, what would I stand to gain by having such an agenda? Why would I bother with said alleged agenda?

I start all-time threads because they are fun. That's all. That's my agenda. Enjoyment of the sport, reliving memories in my mind.
I appreciate reading other people's posts, including yours, describing players that I did not get to see play, extolling their virtues. It's fun. I'm a fan, just like you.

One good thing has come from your long post, and that's that you offered plenty of opinion and fact from your era, which was the whole point.
Thank you!
concordtom
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SFCityBear;842837413 said:

Concord Tom,

YOU are the one who made the first comparison, and continually make these comparisons, by generalizing about whole generations, marginalizing and ridiculing players and teams you never saw. When people say things like the players of yesteryear could not play today, I respond with a specific comparison with a player on the team you ridicule, Imhoff, with Cal’s centers of last year, K2. What, you can compare by generalizing, and I’m not allowed to make a specific comparison to dispute what you write?

Are you old enough to have seen Julius Erving? He’s been retired 30 years. Was he athletic enough for you? He was at the recent PAC12 tournament, and he was asked by the announcer, “How do you like the athleticism of these modern players? Would they compare with your era?” Doctor J replied with a frown, “Well yes, they are athletic, but we were not allowed to do many of the things these players are allowed to do today.” Translation: Allowed to charge, walk with the ball, carry the ball, and there is no hand checking allowed to stop them. The two games are different, different rules, requiring a different type of athlete, different skills and moves.

Oscar Robertson created a fuss when he dared to say no one today knows how to guard Stephen Curry, and described how he would do it. Jim Barnett recently said in an interview that as a player, he was a good defender and very quick, and he would love to be 28 again and see if he could defend Russell Westbrook. Wilt Chamberlain was interviewed by Bill Russell and was asked, “Wilt, you averaged 50 points one season. How many points could you average in today’s game? Wilt replied, “Oh, about 75.” Russell did not disagree. Actually, I saw Wilt get 75 one night at the Cow Palace against the Lakers, including a number of what would have been three-pointers today. I’m not saying anything much different from what these great pros are saying. If you can’t believe me, maybe you can consider what they say. Many of them think they could play today, and so do I. Many of them question whether today’s player could play as well under the more restrictive rules of the game prior to 1985.


1. Yes, I saw Dr. J. He was really something. He could most certainly play today! I can't imagine anyone suggesting otherwise.

2. You seriously cannot rely upon much that Wilt says. If you think that he could score 75 in today's game, then, well, I don't know where to go with that. I simply disagree.

3. Guarding Steph: Certainly, Curry is not the fastest or strongest guard around - either today or by alltime standards. But what Steph has is the best long range shot of anyone ever AND a team of long range shooters where the court is spread, which allows him to operate as a pretty damn good guard in the open court. I'll agree with the Big O if you draw Curry's range in 5 feet, and also pull in the spacing of his Warrior teammates. Then he becomes more average.

4. I didn't say you were not allowed to make specific comparisons. I just said that your specific compare between Imhoff and K2 was unsuccessful in bolstering Imhoff's stature.

5. I don't think I've ever seen a faster player than Russell Westbrook. Good luck, Jim Barnett.

6. Let's get back to CAL, not NBA legends.
concordtom
How long do you want to ignore this user?
joe yaks;842837262 said:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Ryan Anderson
3. Ivan Rabb
4. Allen Crabbe
5. Lamond Murray
6. Yogi Stewart

What do you do with Amit Tamir, Charles Johnson, Jackie Ridgel, John Coughran, Lamond Murray, Randle, ~~~...?

**edit: Jorge Gutierrez


mbBear;842837311 said:

So these are guys you like right? Not really a "best" list? I understand the Jorge love, but him over Ransom and Chenier? Yogi over Imhoff?! And maybe its penalizing him for only two years, but I don't vote for Rabb because of what he potentially could have been....Doug True gets my vote over Rabb, and I could be missing someone here.
Everyone has an opinion, and these lists are a bit futile, i get that. But I think maybe we all need the qualifier "of the guys that I saw...."


Jeff82;842837332 said:

First Five: Point, Jason Kidd; Shooting Guard, Kevin Johnson; Shooting Forward, Ed Gray; Power Forward, Ivan Rabb; Center, Bob Presley

Second Five: Point, Gene Ransom; Shooting Guard, Russ Critchfield; Shooting Forward, Shareef Abdur-Rahim; Power Forward, Leon Powe; Center, Mark McNamara or Darrell Imhoff.


LOUMFSG2;842837380 said:

As to the missing six from the 2007 list, I would think the six come from this group (listed alphabetically):

Darrall Imhoff
Kevin Johnson
Jason Kidd
Sean Lampley
Bob McKeen
Mark McNamara
Lamond Murray
Bob Presley
Jackie Ridgle
Ansley Truitt

I would think Kidd, KJ and Imhoff made the list (their jerseys are in the rafters, and they are "faces" of the program). The other three probably came from McKeen, McNamara, Presley, Ridgle and Truitt, although Lampley was the all-time leading scorer at the time, and Lamond was great as well. I might have had some of the four from this group of ten that didn't make the top six somewhere in the list from 7 to 16.

Since I don't go back that far as a Cal fan, for those that saw them play, which three from McKeen, McNamara, Presley, Ridgle and Truitt should I add to my top six?


So, Here's the Tightwad Hill #7-16 once again,

16. Alfred Grigsby
15. Phil Chenier
14. Shareef Abdur-Rahim
13. Brian Hendrick
12. George Dixon
11. Larry Friend
10. Ed Gray
9. Russ Crutchfield
8. Andy Wolfe
7. Leon Powe

and then I'll try to create my own Sweet 16 based upon all these great names. Note: I only began watching Cal hoops in about 1984 and so know very little of folks before then.
tthompson993
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I agree with you, Jeff82. Can't believe folks are forgetting about Kevin Johnson. The second best guard in Cal history and the second best all around guard in the NBA behind Magic for a number of years. He always ate up John Stockton.
Page 2 of 6
×
Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.