All-Time Cal Basketball Team

concordtom
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Big C_Cal;842835771 said:

I will be ordering "Cal a la carte":

1 Jason Kidd
1 Kevin Johnson or Jerome Randle
2 Jorges
1 Theo
1 Crabbe (not cracked)
1 Ivan Rabbe
1 Leon Powe
1 Ryan Anderson
1 Marcus Lee

Lots of other things on the menu I'd like to try. Maybe I'll come back again tomorrow.


Big C:
Your post from elsewhere makes me think we need a new thread on it. Particularly at this time of year.
I know we've done this before, but I can't recall who I picked, so...

PG: Kidd, KJ
SG: Randle, Shipp
SF: Lamond, Crabbe
PF: Powe, RyanA.
C: Shareef, Mark MacNamara

I dunno, it's a stab. Have at it, y'all.
JTfromClash
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Rabb and Jorge would be #11 and #12 ... Ed Gray over Randle and Shipp?
calgo430
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agreed. ed gray was a dynamic scorer. jerome and joe were good players but not in grays class.
Bear19
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This would be a "modern era" team - no players from Cal's National Championship team or finals team. For example, Daryl Imhoff, center.
RichyBear
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This would be my team:

PG-Kidd, C. Johnson, Kevin Johnson
SG- Critchfield, Chenier, Gray
SF-Murray, Ridgle,
CT-Imhoff, McNamara
PF-Shareef, McClintock, Powe
UrsaMajor
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Shareef was not a center. I'm glad to see some love for Charlie Johnson, but I'd take Phil Chenier over him. I also thought the Jackie Ridgle never really reached his potential (thanks, Padgett). Al Grigsby deserves a little love, although he wasn't as good as the three Richy lists. If this was an all-defensive team, I'd put Bobby Dalton in there, as well.
joe amos yaks
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Hey, I agree with bears19...those best teams are all post-square ball era players. Except for Dalton, they don't include some of Coach Pete's best. C Imhoff was a project (and his shorts were too small) who transcends eras.
concordtom
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UrsaMajor;842835815 said:

Shareef was not a center. I'm glad to see some love for Charlie Johnson, but I'd take Phil Chenier over him. I also thought the Jackie Ridgle never really reached his potential (thanks, Padgett). Al Grigsby deserves a little love, although he wasn't as good as the three Richy lists. If this was an all-defensive team, I'd put Bobby Dalton in there, as well.


Neither is Draymond Green.

Cal doesn't have any one All-Star center.
And Shareef or Powe or Ryan Anderson would likely kick Imhoff's arse, I'm just gonna go out on a limb and suggest as true.
concordtom
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JTfromClash;842835793 said:

Rabb and Jorge would be #11 and #12 ... Ed Gray over Randle and Shipp?


Yes, I knew I was forgetting (at least) someOne.
Let's put Gray as my starting SG position, and push Randle to the bench.
Yes, I would like to have more beef at Center. McNamara was by pick, but maybe Grigsby would be better? He was another PF. Yogi and Kiwi both real light.

Hey, I discovered this weekend I am a neighbor of Nick Vanderlaan's aunt. Ha!
She said he's out of hoops altogether, has several kids.
But Nick is not our all-time center, either.
Who you got?
concordtom
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joe yaks;842835834 said:

C Imhoff ... transcends eras.


Yes, I agree.
He is the true Golden One!
At least until we win 2 or 3 more NC's.

Over/Under: Which will happen first?
Cal wins the NC?
Or the NCAA system as it stands now with amateurism/pro status gets torn apart?
ncbears
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For center, I'd go with Imhoff and McNamara. Brian Hendrick played center - and he played it well.
Bear19
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concordtom;842835863 said:



Over/Under: Which will happen first?
Cal wins the NC?
Or the NCAA system as it stands now with amateurism/pro status gets torn apart?


It's hard to see the NCAA system getting any significant change with the amount of money that is now at stake. I think it will only get even more tilted toward the college programs that are big TV/media money drivers.

Oddly, if Cal could start winning consistently in football, I do think we could win junior membership in that "club." A lot of our profs might not like that, but it would fix Cal's athletic money issues. No pressure there, Coach Wilcox & staff.
Big C
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ConcordTom, do you see the list more as "best players at each position"? Or the 10 that would make up the most formidable team, playing together?

If it's the latter, we might need to be thinking of "glue guys" like Jorge, Theo and Harper Kamp, even though they wouldn't maybe be on an all-star team. Heck, though, Jorge was conference PoY, so...

In any event, I want Ryan Anderson on any team like this. He could rebound and play inside, but then, oh my, the shooting, so having him as one of the three bigs would really make for a versatile team.

When RA was at Cal, I kept expecting him to have a breakout game of 40+, but it never happened. I would've loved to have seen him stay and play on Monty's teams, with JR, PC and TR. Cal Basketball: What might have been, if only...
Mikeman
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Or Andy Wolfe
UrsaMajor
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I don't know about that; did you see Imhoff play?
concordtom
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UrsaMajor;842835938 said:

I don't know about that; did you see Imhoff play?


No, I did not.
But I am disrespecting his era, sorry to say.
The pool of players these days is much bigger, includes all races, and have played way more games before getting to college than anyone did way back then, not to mention the amount of ball played DURING college in the offseason and such. Therefore, guys today are usually taller, better athletes, and more experienced.
concordtom
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Big C_Cal;842835897 said:

ConcordTom, do you see the list more as "best players at each position"? Or the 10 that would make up the most formidable team, playing together?

If it's the latter, we might need to be thinking of "glue guys" like Jorge, Theo and Harper Kamp, even though they wouldn't maybe be on an all-star team. Heck, though, Jorge was conference PoY, so...

In any event, I want Ryan Anderson on any team like this. He could rebound and play inside, but then, oh my, the shooting, so having him as one of the three bigs would really make for a versatile team.

When RA was at Cal, I kept expecting him to have a breakout game of 40+, but it never happened. I would've loved to have seen him stay and play on Monty's teams, with JR, PC and TR. Cal Basketball: What might have been, if only...


I did have Ryan on my team. Of the 3 you mentioned, I would consider Jorge as a tough defensive role player, and maybe Theo as a spot up 3 (all time leading % guy at Cal).
Yes, it is important to have a team that meshes, and if you gather a group of simply scorers, it often doesn't work because there's only 1 ball, yet lots of other jobs to do.

Your point is well made. I can't predict how everyone would mesh.
I'll say this - you gotta have a squad with 3 scorers, 1 penetrator (PG leader), 2 warriors inside, and all 5 defensive players!
SFCityBear
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concordtom;842835947 said:

No, I did not.
But I am disrespecting his era, sorry to say.
The pool of players these days is much bigger, includes all races, and have played way more games before getting to college than anyone did way back then, not to mention the amount of ball played DURING college in the offseason and such. Therefore, guys today are usually taller, better athletes, and more experienced.


As usual, Tom, you’re blowing smoke out your rear. Let me try and help you with one aspect of this, Darrall Imhoff.

Cal’s All-American center, Darrall Imhoff, was a complete center. In 1959 and in 1960, he was probably the dominant center in college basketball, certainly the most dominant center on defense. To any poster here on the BI who says that players of that era could not play today, has to look no farther than Darrall Imhoff.

Last season, both Kingsley Okoroh and Kameron Rooks played a very credible center for Cal, wouldn’t you agree? In his day, Imhoff had better stats than either one, and better stats than both combined. But I’d agree that stats are not meaningful because the game was different in the two eras. So let’s look at athleticism and basketball skills:

Based on sheer athleticism alone, Imhoff could jump higher, run faster, was quicker, had better reflexes, a better eye, and was more aggressive than either Rooks or Okoroh. I’d bet the farm that Darrall had a higher vertical standing jump, and a faster 40 yard dash time than either Rooks or Okoroh. In terms of stamina, Imhoff went 35 minutes every game, always in back-to-back games, and often went 40 minutes in a game. Neither Rooks or Okoroh has shown they can go 35 minutes (in a game with what, 20 timeouts?), let alone do it every night.

In terms of basketball skills, as a junior and as a senior, compared to Rooks and Okoroh, Imhoff had much better footwork, could shoot much better, had more of a variety of shots, anticipated rebounds much better, could pass much better, could catch a pass much better, and dribble a basketball much better. Defensively, he could shut down his opposing center, night after night. He was as good or better shot blocker than Okoroh, and a better shot blocker than Rooks, and Imhoff stole a lot more passes than Rooks and Okoroh combined.

Nearly all the Cal teams and Cal coaches since 1960, if they had Darrall Imhoff on the roster, would have started him at center for Cal. The only teams who had centers in Imhoff’s class were the Ansley Truitt teams of the 1970’s, and the Mark McNamara teams of the 1980’s. Both Truitt and McNamara were a little better scorers than Imhoff, but neither was anywhere near as good as Darrall on defense. One might be able to make a case for the 2004 team with Leon Powe and Amit Tamir up front, but even then, I think Imhoff starts at center, Powe moves to PF and Tamir moves to SF or to the bench. One could also make a case for the Bob Presley teams of the 1960’s, but Presley was not the offensive center Imhoff was, and sadly had too many personal problems to reach his potential. Cal got some fine center play from Brian Hendricks and Leonard Taylor, but both were a little undersized, and I think Imhoff would start at center on their teams, freeing either of them up to play a power forward position. Imhoff was the best we ever had at the center position, would have started on all or nearly all Cal teams since his day, and he would have made all of those teams better, IMO.
barracuda
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One cannot compare atheltes from different eras, as the rules and athletes and everything changes. To me, Bill Russell is still the greatest basketball player of all time, with an Olympic gold medal, two college natilonal championships, and eleven NBA titles in thirteen years with the Celtics. But that does not mean that there is any way to compare him then with players since his time. As usual, I should probably stay out of this, but... Newell's championship team was an ensemble act, not a list of stars, but they took out great teams from West Virginia, Ohio State and Cincinnati.
UrsaMajor
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barracuda;842836541 said:

One cannot compare atheltes from different eras, as the rules and athletes and everything changes. To me, Bill Russell is still the greatest basketball player of all time, with an Olympic gold medal, two college natilonal championships, and eleven NBA titles in thirteen years with the Celtics. But that does not mean that there is any way to compare him then with players since his time. As usual, I should probably stay out of this, but...


You're right, of course, but if we didn't make these comparisons, there'd be nothing to do in the bar but get quietly drunk.
RichyBear
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SFCityBear;842836535 said:

As usual, Tom, you're blowing smoke out your rear. Let me try and help you with one aspect of this, Darrall Imhoff.

Cal's All-American center, Darrall Imhoff, was a complete center. In 1959 and in 1960, he was probably the dominant center in college basketball, certainly the most dominant center on defense. To any poster here on the BI who says that players of that era could not play today, has to look no farther than Darrall Imhoff.

Last season, both Kingsley Okoroh and Kameron Rooks played a very credible center for Cal, wouldn't you agree? In his day, Imhoff had better stats than either one, and better stats than both combined. But I'd agree that stats are not meaningful because the game was different in the two eras. So let's look at athleticism and basketball skills:

Based on sheer athleticism alone, Imhoff could jump higher, run faster, was quicker, had better reflexes, a better eye, and was more aggressive than either Rooks or Okoroh. I'd bet the farm that Darrall had a higher vertical standing jump, and a faster 40 yard dash time than either Rooks or Okoroh. In terms of stamina, Imhoff went 35 minutes every game, always in back-to-back games, and often went 40 minutes in a game. Neither Rooks or Okoroh has shown they can go 35 minutes (in a game with what, 20 timeouts?), let alone do it every night.

In terms of basketball skills, as a junior and as a senior, compared to Rooks and Okoroh, Imhoff had much better footwork, could shoot much better, had more of a variety of shots, anticipated rebounds much better, could pass much better, could catch a pass much better, and dribble a basketball much better. Defensively, he could shut down his opposing center, night after night. He was as good or better shot blocker than Okoroh, and a better shot blocker than Rooks, and Imhoff stole a lot more passes than Rooks and Okoroh combined.

Nearly all the Cal teams and Cal coaches since 1960, if they had Darrall Imhoff on the roster, would have started him at center for Cal. The only teams who had centers in Imhoff's class were the Ansley Truitt teams of the 1970's, and the Mark McNamara teams of the 1980's. Both Truitt and McNamara were a little better scorers than Imhoff, but neither was anywhere near as good as Darrall on defense. One might be able to make a case for the 2004 team with Leon Powe and Amit Tamir up front, but even then, I think Imhoff starts at center, Powe moves to PF and Tamir moves to SF or to the bench. One could also make a case for the Bob Presley teams of the 1960's, but Presley was not the offensive center Imhoff was, and sadly had too many personal problems to reach his potential. Cal got some fine center play from Brian Hendricks and Leonard Taylor, but both were a little undersized, and I think Imhoff would start at center on their teams, freeing either of them up to play a power forward position. Imhoff was the best we ever had at the center position, would have started on all or nearly all Cal teams since his day, and he would have made all of those teams better, IMO.


Plus 100.

I'd go a step further. Dick Dougherty (sp), Imhoff's backup, would start ahead of many centers who started for Cal since, especially the 2 we now have. I was still in high school when these guys played, but I watch some of the games on tv. On a Friday-Saturday set of games against Stanford, Imhoff got in foul trouble in both games. Dougherty played most of the 2 games and made player of the week.
UrsaMajor
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Imhoff had a longer and more productive NBA career than McNamara or Truitt, perhaps an indication of his value. Of course, in terms of the NBA, Yogi Stewart and Kiwi Marks were more successful than any of those.
Fred Clerici
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What about Bob Presley. Ask Kareem about how good he was.
BEAST2324MODE
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sean lampley, how the hell has he not been listed? smh
bearmanpg
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BEAST2324MODE;842836717 said:

sean lampley, how the hell has he not been listed? smh



He didn't play in '59...that's the answer....and Bob Presley was a complete beast, 18 pts and 14 rbs make you an all-timer no matter what problems you had in life....
Civil Bear
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SFCityBear;842836535 said:

As usual, Tom, you’re blowing smoke out your rear. Let me try and help you with one aspect of this, Darrall Imhoff.

Cal’s All-American center, Darrall Imhoff, was a complete center. In 1959 and in 1960, he was probably the dominant center in college basketball, certainly the most dominant center on defense. To any poster here on the BI who says that players of that era could not play today, has to look no farther than Darrall Imhoff.

Last season, both Kingsley Okoroh and Kameron Rooks played a very credible center for Cal, wouldn’t you agree? In his day, Imhoff had better stats than either one, and better stats than both combined. But I’d agree that stats are not meaningful because the game was different in the two eras. So let’s look at athleticism and basketball skills:


So you are comparing an All-American center from one era to a couple of average centers from today. Who's the one blowing smoke again?
71Bear
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Any all-time Cal team without Phil Chenier is a waste of time...

G - Kidd and Chenier (the best pure shooter ever at Cal)
C - Imhoff
F - Ridgle and McNamara (gotta get the big guy on the floor)
Larno
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Too young to see Imhoff play but why is there even a question of comparing him to Rooks and Okoroh? They try real hard, bless their hearts, but they are just not good. They can do some things but scoring is not one of them. It would be nice to have a good big man who is mobile and can score, as some college teams have, rather than projects. And they have been better than some of the projects who have come through Cal who never developed even their level of skills. Such is life for a program that does not and/or cannot attract the recruits on an Arizona or UCLA level.
dan1997
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71Bear;842836849 said:

Any all-time Cal team without Phil Chenier is a waste of time...

G - Kidd and Chenier (the best pure shooter ever at Cal)
C - Imhoff
F - Ridgle and McNamara (gotta get the big guy on the floor)


People forget how good Ed Gray was at Cal. Averaged 25 a game on 50% shooting. Ridiculous. http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/california/1997.html

All time (based on college only) team:
PG: Kidd
SG: Ed Gray
SF: Lamond Murray
PF: Shareef
C: Brian Hendricks
concordtom
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Good discussion.
Thanks, y'all.

SFCity, even though I never saw him play, I'll buy all you say about imhoff's talents and abilities. But civil bear hit the nail on the head - what on earth are you doing even considering comparing imhoff to K2 in order to emphasize his greatness? Big mistake. You raised better compares with mcnamara and Truit, then Presley, Powe, Hendrick and Taylor. Now you're talking! But I only go back as far as McNamara, so try it and Presley are ? to me.

Thank you, beastmode, for bringing the forgotten Lampley into the mix. Duh on me.

But, yeah, hearing y'all's arguments for various players is why I started the thread. Indeed, drinking alone at the bar is no fun (just a metaphor, for the record).

I still want to hear some more in depth discussion on meshing and rotations of our stars, not just a list of greatness.
Nastybear
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dan1997;842836945 said:

People forget how good Ed Gray was at Cal. Averaged 25 a game on 50% shooting. Ridiculous. http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/california/1997.html

All time (based on college only) team:
PG: Kidd
SG: Ed Gray
SF: Lamond Murray
PF: Shareef
C: Brian Hendricks


That's a good 5 right there! Brian Hendricks was a stud. Brutal knee injury ended his career.
concordtom
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concordtom;842836952 said:

Good discussion.
Thanks, y'all.

SFCity, even though I never saw him play, I'll buy all you say about imhoff's talents and abilities. But civil bear hit the nail on the head - what on earth are you doing even considering comparing imhoff to K2 in order to emphasize his greatness? Big mistake. You raised better compares with mcnamara and Truit, then Presley, Powe, Hendrick and Taylor. Now you're talking! But I only go back as far as McNamara, so try it and Presley are ? to me.

Thank you, beastmode, for bringing the forgotten Lampley into the mix. Duh on me.

But, yeah, hearing y'all's arguments for various players is why I started the thread. Indeed, drinking alone at the bar is no fun (just a metaphor, for the record).

I still want to hear some more in depth discussion on meshing and rotations of our stars, not just a list of greatness.


By the way:

Leonard Taylor: 6'8"
Brian Hendrick: 6'9"
Ainsley Truitt: 6'9"
Darall Imhoff: 6'10"
Bob Presley: 6'10.5"
Mark McNamara: 6'11"

Whomever mentioned Leonard Taylor at center.... not tall enough. Sorry...

Al Grigsby was 6'9", too.
CAL6371
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RichyBear - agree on your team. McClintock only one whom you overrated imo.
CAL6371
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barracuda -Cal took out Ohio State? I was at that game in the Cow Palace in March of 1960 - Ohio State routed Cal even though Cal was the defending champ had a load of seniors and a home advantage and OSU had sophomores (Lucas, Havlichek(sp) and Nowell). Very bad history on your part.
GoOskie
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Yogi Stewart! One of my favorite Cal bball players. Shot blocker extraordinaire, baby! (sorry, this thread got me watching youtube videos of past Cal games with Dick Vital). I worked at the same company as his dad for a bit. Really nice guy.
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