Hampton and Wichita State games compared

2,942 Views | 9 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by BeachedBear
SFCityBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
This was a game of two halves. Eerily similar to the Wichita State game in Maui last season, in that Cal looked so good as a basketball team in the first half, and then gradually let the opponent get back into a game we had in control. The difference in the two games was that Cal recovered enough last night to keep enough control and be victorious in the end, whereas vs Wichita, Cal never was able to slow down the opponent to wrest the momentum back from them and regain enough control to hold on for a win.

Of course, Hampton is not Wichita State, which was a highly ranked team. Cal is a different team too, with more skilled guards but no experienced bigs this year. I am only talking about the way the Cal team looked. In both games, the Cal team looked more like a team which played together in the first half, and looked much less so in the second half. In both games, there were more assists, fewer turnovers, more open shots, more moving without the ball, more teamwork in the first half than in the 2nd half. In the first half, all the Cal players were moving without the ball better than I had seen under Wyking Jones, and they were looking to find the open man better. There were great two man plays, and plays involving several passes. For anyone who saw the Yale game, it looked like night and day. Cal shot 55%. You don't do that without open looks. Most players are a lot better shots with an unguarded open look than they are in creating their own shot. Cal made 16 FGs on 10 assists, with only 4 turnovers. Austin had 4 assists himself.

In the second half last night Cal looked like they did in the Yale game. Last night in the 2nd half, Cal shot 43%. They made only 10 FGs on 6 assists (which is still good, but was a dropoff from the first half). They made 6 turnovers, and Austin made only 2 assists. Mark my words, as Austin goes, so will go the Cal team. When he plays too fast, or when he tries to score too much himself, like he did in Shanghai, Cal's offense is an ineffective mess. He needs to set the tempo, control it, and run offense. He needs to get players moving, and trusting him to get them the ball if they get open.

Why I harp on the Wichita State game is that I feel that when Cal lost control of that game, and could not stem the tide of the WSU run, that was the image of what the team was which Cal took into the next game and beyond. They lost that focus, and belief in themselves that they achieved in that first half. They played poorly against VCU in the 2nd game, and were blown out by a passing team, a Division 2 team, Chaminade in game 3. The season was gone right there, except for a couple of bright spots like SDSU and maybe Stanford. Cal never returned to the focus, the image of Cal as a team, moving without the ball and unselfishly looking for their teammates.

Against Hampton, Cal lost that image again, and started the 2nd half playing like they did against Yale. I cautiously give Wyking Jones credit for perhaps getting his players out of their funk and regaining some control of the game. It was still too close with a few minutes to go. Now it is up to the players and Coach Jones whether they are going to try and regain that well-oiled machine they showed in the first half, and play more games like that, instead of going downhill like last season. It is so easy to lose control of a young basketball team not used to playing with each other, especially for an inexperienced head coach.





SFCityBear
KoreAmBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SFCityBear said:

This was a game of two halves. Eerily similar to the Wichita State game in Maui last season, in that Cal looked so good as a basketball team in the first half, and then gradually let the opponent get back into a game we had in control. The difference in the two games was that Cal recovered enough last night to keep enough control and be victorious in the end, whereas vs Wichita, Cal never was able to slow down the opponent to wrest the momentum back from them and regain enough control to hold on for a win.

Of course, Hampton is not Wichita State, which was a highly ranked team. Cal is a different team too, with more skilled guards but no experienced bigs this year. I am only talking about the way the Cal team looked. In both games, the Cal team looked more like a team which played together in the first half, and looked much less so in the second half. In both games, there were more assists, fewer turnovers, more open shots, more moving without the ball, more teamwork in the first half than in the 2nd half. In the first half, all the Cal players were moving without the ball better than I had seen under Wyking Jones, and they were looking to find the open man better. There were great two man plays, and plays involving several passes. For anyone who saw the Yale game, it looked like night and day. Cal shot 55%. You don't do that without open looks. Most players are a lot better shots with an unguarded open look than they are in creating their own shot. Cal made 16 FGs on 10 assists, with only 4 turnovers. Austin had 4 assists himself.

In the second half last night Cal looked like they did in the Yale game. Last night in the 2nd half, Cal shot 43%. They made only 10 FGs on 6 assists (which is still good, but was a dropoff from the first half). They made 6 turnovers, and Austin made only 2 assists. Mark my words, as Austin goes, so will go the Cal team. When he plays too fast, or when he tries to score too much himself, like he did in Shanghai, Cal's offense is an ineffective mess. He needs to set the tempo, control it, and run offense. He needs to get players moving, and trusting him to get them the ball if they get open.

Why I harp on the Wichita State game is that I feel that when Cal lost control of that game, and could not stem the tide of the WSU run, that was the image of what the team was which Cal took into the next game and beyond. They lost that focus, and belief in themselves that they achieved in that first half. They played poorly against VCU in the 2nd game, and were blown out by a passing team, a Division 2 team, Chaminade in game 3. The season was gone right there, except for a couple of bright spots like SDSU and maybe Stanford. Cal never returned to the focus, the image of Cal as a team, moving without the ball and unselfishly looking for their teammates.

Against Hampton, Cal lost that image again, and started the 2nd half playing like they did against Yale. I cautiously give Wyking Jones credit for perhaps getting his players out of their funk and regaining some control of the game. It was still too close with a few minutes to go. Now it is up to the players and Coach Jones whether they are going to try and regain that well-oiled machine they showed in the first half, and play more games like that, instead of going downhill like last season. It is so easy to lose control of a young basketball team not used to playing with each other, especially for an inexperienced head coach.






Not a bad take. It's more about the process. How we do things. Not wins and losses per se. First half was good. Second half was more like the first two games. The issue is what will it be like the rest of the season. If we see that it's like last year in our out of conference season, I think we need to cut bait. It's a waste of a season. Players have only 4 seasons and even one season wasted without any development is too many. And we wasted one last season. But if we see more like it was the first half, then there is room for patience and hope.
UrsaMajor
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SFCityBear said:

This was a game of two halves. Eerily similar to the Wichita State game in Maui last season, in that Cal looked so good as a basketball team in the first half, and then gradually let the opponent get back into a game we had in control. The difference in the two games was that Cal recovered enough last night to keep enough control and be victorious in the end, whereas vs Wichita, Cal never was able to slow down the opponent to wrest the momentum back from them and regain enough control to hold on for a win.

Of course, Hampton is not Wichita State, which was a highly ranked team. Cal is a different team too, with more skilled guards but no experienced bigs this year. I am only talking about the way the Cal team looked. In both games, the Cal team looked more like a team which played together in the first half, and looked much less so in the second half. In both games, there were more assists, fewer turnovers, more open shots, more moving without the ball, more teamwork in the first half than in the 2nd half. In the first half, all the Cal players were moving without the ball better than I had seen under Wyking Jones, and they were looking to find the open man better. There were great two man plays, and plays involving several passes. For anyone who saw the Yale game, it looked like night and day. Cal shot 55%. You don't do that without open looks. Most players are a lot better shots with an unguarded open look than they are in creating their own shot. Cal made 16 FGs on 10 assists, with only 4 turnovers. Austin had 4 assists himself.

In the second half last night Cal looked like they did in the Yale game. Last night in the 2nd half, Cal shot 43%. They made only 10 FGs on 6 assists (which is still good, but was a dropoff from the first half). They made 6 turnovers, and Austin made only 2 assists. Mark my words, as Austin goes, so will go the Cal team. When he plays too fast, or when he tries to score too much himself, like he did in Shanghai, Cal's offense is an ineffective mess. He needs to set the tempo, control it, and run offense. He needs to get players moving, and trusting him to get them the ball if they get open.

Why I harp on the Wichita State game is that I feel that when Cal lost control of that game, and could not stem the tide of the WSU run, that was the image of what the team was which Cal took into the next game and beyond. They lost that focus, and belief in themselves that they achieved in that first half. They played poorly against VCU in the 2nd game, and were blown out by a passing team, a Division 2 team, Chaminade in game 3. The season was gone right there, except for a couple of bright spots like SDSU and maybe Stanford. Cal never returned to the focus, the image of Cal as a team, moving without the ball and unselfishly looking for their teammates.

Against Hampton, Cal lost that image again, and started the 2nd half playing like they did against Yale. I cautiously give Wyking Jones credit for perhaps getting his players out of their funk and regaining some control of the game. It was still too close with a few minutes to go. Now it is up to the players and Coach Jones whether they are going to try and regain that well-oiled machine they showed in the first half, and play more games like that, instead of going downhill like last season. It is so easy to lose control of a young basketball team not used to playing with each other, especially for an inexperienced head coach.






Agree totally with this, SFCity. I had been wondering what your take would be after last night. A couple of quick comments: originally, Austin was credited with 5 assists in the 1st half, which is impressive--especially against zero turnovers. When you said "better than I've seen under Wyking Jones," I'd add better than I've seen under Cuonzo Martin, either!

I don't know if the 2nd half letdown was fatigue (I doubt it) or loss of focus due to the large lead, but I am pleased that they got it together toward the end (at least somewhat).

Red flags for me were two fold: 1. even though Hampton wasn't very tall, in the 2nd half they got way too many offensive rebounds. We did a terrible job of basic boxing out--even when in man defense. 2. Our guards failed miserably in the 2nd half at stopping dribble penetration. Marrow basically could do whatever he wanted and get to the cup any time he felt like it.

Still, a marked improvement over the Yale game. Something to build on?
Civil Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I thought Cal did a petty good job shutting down the penetration with their zone. A couple of glitches, but probably the best zone they've played under Jones.
UrsaMajor
How long do you want to ignore this user?
True. I was referring to the man defense they played in the first part of the 2nd half.
SFCityBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
UrsaMajor said:

SFCityBear said:

This was a game of two halves. Eerily similar to the Wichita State game in Maui last season, in that Cal looked so good as a basketball team in the first half, and then gradually let the opponent get back into a game we had in control. The difference in the two games was that Cal recovered enough last night to keep enough control and be victorious in the end, whereas vs Wichita, Cal never was able to slow down the opponent to wrest the momentum back from them and regain enough control to hold on for a win.

Of course, Hampton is not Wichita State, which was a highly ranked team. Cal is a different team too, with more skilled guards but no experienced bigs this year. I am only talking about the way the Cal team looked. In both games, the Cal team looked more like a team which played together in the first half, and looked much less so in the second half. In both games, there were more assists, fewer turnovers, more open shots, more moving without the ball, more teamwork in the first half than in the 2nd half. In the first half, all the Cal players were moving without the ball better than I had seen under Wyking Jones, and they were looking to find the open man better. There were great two man plays, and plays involving several passes. For anyone who saw the Yale game, it looked like night and day. Cal shot 55%. You don't do that without open looks. Most players are a lot better shots with an unguarded open look than they are in creating their own shot. Cal made 16 FGs on 10 assists, with only 4 turnovers. Austin had 4 assists himself.

In the second half last night Cal looked like they did in the Yale game. Last night in the 2nd half, Cal shot 43%. They made only 10 FGs on 6 assists (which is still good, but was a dropoff from the first half). They made 6 turnovers, and Austin made only 2 assists. Mark my words, as Austin goes, so will go the Cal team. When he plays too fast, or when he tries to score too much himself, like he did in Shanghai, Cal's offense is an ineffective mess. He needs to set the tempo, control it, and run offense. He needs to get players moving, and trusting him to get them the ball if they get open.

Why I harp on the Wichita State game is that I feel that when Cal lost control of that game, and could not stem the tide of the WSU run, that was the image of what the team was which Cal took into the next game and beyond. They lost that focus, and belief in themselves that they achieved in that first half. They played poorly against VCU in the 2nd game, and were blown out by a passing team, a Division 2 team, Chaminade in game 3. The season was gone right there, except for a couple of bright spots like SDSU and maybe Stanford. Cal never returned to the focus, the image of Cal as a team, moving without the ball and unselfishly looking for their teammates.

Against Hampton, Cal lost that image again, and started the 2nd half playing like they did against Yale. I cautiously give Wyking Jones credit for perhaps getting his players out of their funk and regaining some control of the game. It was still too close with a few minutes to go. Now it is up to the players and Coach Jones whether they are going to try and regain that well-oiled machine they showed in the first half, and play more games like that, instead of going downhill like last season. It is so easy to lose control of a young basketball team not used to playing with each other, especially for an inexperienced head coach.






Agree totally with this, SFCity. I had been wondering what your take would be after last night. A couple of quick comments: originally, Austin was credited with 5 assists in the 1st half, which is impressive--especially against zero turnovers. When you said "better than I've seen under Wyking Jones," I'd add better than I've seen under Cuonzo Martin, either!

I don't know if the 2nd half letdown was fatigue (I doubt it) or loss of focus due to the large lead, but I am pleased that they got it together toward the end (at least somewhat).

Red flags for me were two fold: 1. even though Hampton wasn't very tall, in the 2nd half they got way too many offensive rebounds. We did a terrible job of basic boxing out--even when in man defense. 2. Our guards failed miserably in the 2nd half at stopping dribble penetration. Marrow basically could do whatever he wanted and get to the cup any time he felt like it.

Still, a marked improvement over the Yale game. Something to build on?
I agree with you for the most part. I was surprised that Cal would hire a HC from Cuonzo's staff, and I was pleasantly surprised by Cal's offense in the first half last night. Statistically, they did move the ball even better than they did against Wichita State. They looked almost as good at it last night as Chaminade looked against Cal in Maui last year. Chaminade put on a clinic.

I think fatigue has to be a factor after the long trip and the jet lag. Maybe it wasn't, but in that case, it could still be a factor in the next game tomorrow.

Hampton did have a couple of 6'-9" centers, but I did not remember seeing them both on the court at the same time. However, they are pretty skinny. One was 210 lbs and the other was 202 lbs. Vanover at 225 lbs outweighs them. He often got good rebounding position, but got shoved out of it time and again. Kelly seemed to have his way with Hampton in the first half, but not later. Hampton's forwards were both 6'-6", and Cal's are Sueing at 6'-7" and I guess Bradley at 6'-4". Their forwards were strong, but Cal should have been able to box out. We are still a very young team. Boxing out used to be taught in the 8th and 9th grades. Now, maybe they teach it in college.

Pretty hard to stop dribble penetration with just your guards, especially when they are not allowed to hand check, and the dribbler is allowed to palm the ball. That is one reason teams have had to go to help defense, I'd guess.

Actually, one ref did call a Hampton guard for palming last night - and it blew my mind. I hadn't seen it called in several years. If they start calling it again, I might start watching more games.

Of course the game was one to build on. I said the same thing after the Wichita game last season. I was really pumped, figuring we would build on that first half. Instead we built on the 2nd half, and allowed more negativity to get into our thinking and playing, and the season was lost. I hope we get the Hampton game right, and put the negative thoughts out of our mind, and focus on unselfish play.

I want to see Vanover get more minutes. Kelly is awfully good, but I can't see him defending the rim against taller players, where maybe Vanover can. BTW, we saw little of Anticevich last night. I thought he played OK vs Yale, showed better footwork and abilitity to stay with his man. Is he back in Wyking Jones' doghouse?
SFCityBear
stu
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SFCityBear said:

Hampton did have a couple of 6'-9" centers, but I did not remember seeing them both on the court at the same time. However, they are pretty skinny. One was 210 lbs and the other was 202 lbs. Vanover at 225 lbs outweighs them.

I'm sure Hampton's bigs are far stronger than Vanover, after all he's a frosh with knees about the size of my elbows (and I'm skinny).

Quote:

Boxing out used to be taught in the 8th and 9th grades. Now, maybe they teach it in college.

We played a lot of zone in the 2nd half, I think that hurt our rebounding.

Quote:

Actually, one ref did call a Hampton guard for palming last night

He wasn't just palming, but actually carrying the ball with his hand underneath - pretty hard to miss.

Quote:

BTW, we saw little of Anticevich last night. I thought he played OK vs Yale, showed better footwork and abilitity to stay with his man. Is he back in Wyking Jones' doghouse?

I'm guessing reason is the Hampton bigs were quicker, Kelly is stronger and a better scorer, and Vanover is taller and an outside shooting threat. Maybe just not the best matchup against that particular opponent.
SFCityBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
stu said:


I'm sure Hampton's bigs are far stronger than Vanover, after all he's a frosh with knees about the size of my elbows (and I'm skinny).


I think you are right. BTW, I'm getting fatter around the middle, but not gaining any weight overall. If you are skinny, do you have any suggestions for me on how to get back to my previously skinny self?

Quote:

We played a lot of zone in the 2nd half, I think that hurt our rebounding.


Good point. Also, Hampton put up a ton of threes, and missed nearly all of them. (3-21). Three point shots that miss very often result in long caroms and a long rebound, and where boxing out hinders the inside rebounder to be able to get that long rebound.

Quote:

He wasn't just palming, but actually carrying the ball with his hand underneath - pretty hard to miss.


Actually, the announcer said he was called for carrying the ball. In fact the rule is for carrying, and palming is not mentioned. They are actually the same thing - there is no difference. Palming is the colloquial description. Any tiime a player's palm is not facing the floor, or his palm gets below the horizontal equator of the ball, it is carrying or palming. I agree it was a pretty gross violation, but I was still surprised they called it, as I hadn't seen it called in years.

Quote:

I'm guessing reason is the Hampton bigs were quicker, Kelly is stronger and a better scorer, and Vanover is taller and an outside shooting threat. Maybe just not the best matchup against that particular opponent.


You may be right, but I feel it is pretty early in the season to be worrying about matchups and winning games, especally against a weak opponent. If we only play very young players in situations where they have the skill set and size to match up to an opposing player, then how will they ever learn to improve enough to compete against better players? And how will the coach learn how much he can trust the very young player in different situations, if he doesn't play them in the pre-conference season, at least against the weak teams?
SFCityBear
UrsaMajor
How long do you want to ignore this user?
While I agree with your characterization of palming, SFCity, it isn't actually written that way in the NCAA rulebook (maybe it used to be), thus giving the referees much more leeway in how they call (or don't call) it.
SFCityBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
UrsaMajor said:

While I agree with your characterization of palming, SFCity, it isn't actually written that way in the NCAA rulebook (maybe it used to be), thus giving the referees much more leeway in how they call (or don't call) it.
My mistake. From the 2007 NCAA rulebook:

"And Rule 4 - Section 18 - Article 4:

Art. 4. The dribble ends when:

a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands;"

So as of 2007, both terms applied to the same maneuver. I could find not distinction. I couldn't find the current rulebook. If you have it, please quote the section. I am interested in knowing the difference, and how the referees have leeway in calling this violation.
SFCityBear
BeachedBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
UrsaMajor said:

While I agree with your characterization of palming, SFCity, it isn't actually written that way in the NCAA rulebook (maybe it used to be), thus giving the referees much more leeway in how they call (or don't call) it.
Sometimes you get 'throwback jersey night'. In the Pac12, we apparently get 'throwback officiating'. Unfortunately, it is not as obvious to spot as a jersey.
Refresh
Page 1 of 1
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.