Cal's offense

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HoopDreams
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I think most people agree our offensive coaching is improved, although we are certainly not setting the world on fire, so I say 'most people'

but what is our offense?

I've been crazy busy this season, so haven't been able to watch all games, and haven't been able to rewatch games like I've often done in prior seasons. In the past, I'd even watch parts of a reply in slow motion to break down a game and focus on an individual player

when I'm watching a game live, I often get into the drama and emotion of the game, so don't see what is really happening, especially off the ball.

The above is a big disclaimer to my breakdown of the Cal offense, and it can be very far off. I'd welcome others to chime in and add/correct...

when we have our starting five of Paris, Bradley, Kelly, Grant and South, we play a 4 out, 1 in motion offense. By motion offense, we don't play with a lot of set plays or sets, but rather move/pass/screen with certain concepts/principals.

We don't play a traditional heavy inside and outside and multiple screening, many plays/sets 'princeton' offense, nor do we play a traditional inside out offense, and we certainly don't play a run and gun fast break offense

Instead we spread out the floor, creating driving opportunities for our guards. It's not quite the dribble drive offense, but there are similarities. But our offense doesn't kick the ball out on drives either because it's a different offense, or we aren't very good at it. I've commented the only player who kicks the ball is Brown.

For us to run our preferred offense, Grant needs to be on the court, as a stretch 4. I think Kelly can also step out, and at least hit the mid range consistently, but apparently Fox doesn't want him in that role (he wants his 5 to be in the paint). Kelly is often in the 'dunkers position' to either get a pass for an inside shot or dunk, or to crash the offensive boards.

Of course, all college offensives are multiple, change based on personnel and combos on the floor. We sometimes do play inside out with Kelly where we clear out for him, get him the ball in the post and let him back his man down for a low post score. If a defender doubles down, he kicks out

With 4 out, we almost always run defenders through high ball screens, and depending on the screener, try a pick and pop (for Grant) or a pick and roll (for Kelly, or others). We haven't perfected either yet, although we don't have the perfect personnel for pick and rolls.

Regarding execution, our perimeter passing improved. I often see the extra pass. We also don't have any players whom the ball sticks in their hands too long, which kills almost all offenses. This was a major problem with recent past seasons

Yet, we don't have the perfect personnel for the above offense. Ideally we'd have a shooting guard who can both hit the 3, and drive and finish/pass on the drive. I think the difference between cal's offense being adequate/average to very good is our 2 (sorry, don't want to be too harsh on South). Basically we are one player away from a very good offense.

Big C
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HoopDreams said:

I think most people agree our offensive coaching is improved, although we are certainly not setting the world on fire, so I say 'most people'

but what is our offense?

I've been crazy busy this season, so haven't been able to watch all games, and haven't been able to rewatch games like I've often done in prior seasons. In the past, I'd even watch parts of a reply in slow motion to break down a game and focus on an individual player

when I'm watching a game live, I often get into the drama and emotion of the game, so don't see what is really happening, especially off the ball.

The above is a big disclaimer to my breakdown of the Cal offense, and it can be very far off. I'd welcome others to chime in and add/correct...

when we have our starting five of Paris, Bradley, Kelly, Grant and South, we play a 4 out, 1 in motion offense. By motion offense, we don't play with a lot of set plays or sets, but rather move/pass/screen with certain concepts/principals.

We don't play a traditional heavy inside and outside and multiple screening, many plays/sets 'princeton' offense, nor do we play a traditional inside out offense, and we certainly don't play a run and gun fast break offense

Instead we spread out the floor, creating driving opportunities for our guards. It's not quite the dribble drive offense, but there are similarities. But our offense doesn't kick the ball out on drives either because it's a different offense, or we aren't very good at it. I've commented the only player who kicks the ball is Brown.

For us to run our preferred offense, Grant needs to be on the court, as a stretch 4. I think Kelly can also step out, and at least hit the mid range consistently, but apparently Fox doesn't want him in that role (he wants his 5 to be in the paint). Kelly is often in the 'dunkers position' to either get a pass for an inside shot or dunk, or to crash the offensive boards.

Of course, all college offensives are multiple, change based on personnel and combos on the floor. We sometimes do play inside out with Kelly where we clear out for him, get him the ball in the post and let him back his man down for a low post score. If a defender doubles down, he kicks out

With 4 out, we almost always run defenders through high ball screens, and depending on the screener, try a pick and pop (for Grant) or a pick and roll (for Kelly, or others). We haven't perfected either yet, although we don't have the perfect personnel for pick and rolls.

Regarding execution, our perimeter passing improved. I often see the extra pass. We also don't have any players whom the ball sticks in their hands too long, which kills almost all offenses. This was a major problem with recent past seasons

Yet, we don't have the perfect personnel for the above offense. Ideally we'd have a shooting guard who can both hit the 3, and drive and finish/pass on the drive. I think the difference between cal's offense being adequate/average to very good is our 2 (sorry, don't want to be too harsh on South). Basically we are one player away from a very good offense.



Lots of good insight, as usual, but I can't let that last sentence go. "Basically we are one player away from a very good offense."? Geez, unless that one player was at the All-American level, I'd say we're a good three players away.
NVBear78
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The biggest problem is we have no reliable shooters other than Bradley. Our offense is vastly improved since early in the season and we get lots of open shots-the start of the WSU game being a perfect example. In that game the big first half lead was fueled by guys like Paris, Grant and South hitting some early three's.

However as the game wore on those guys missed their later three point shots and is their wont seemed to lose confidence as well and later shots were not even close. Watch South play these days, his shot is all over the place and it seems to be in his head. Grant is a little the same way-even in games where starts fast he can go into a funk and miss badly on the next three shots right after a good make. That being said I still want him to a be a "volume shooter" for us given the lack of alternatives.

Paris won the game for us vs. WSU and played well in just about every way even though Elleby beat him inside a few times.
HoopDreams
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Fair point.

That one player would need to be a shooter that could also slash and score (and pass) who had good size for a 2.

For example, Dyson with a good shot, or any number of the top shooting guards

My point is to play 4 out, we need another player who can both shoot and drive, and play better defense than south




Big C said:

HoopDreams said:

I think most people agree our offensive coaching is improved, although we are certainly not setting the world on fire, so I say 'most people'

but what is our offense?

I've been crazy busy this season, so haven't been able to watch all games, and haven't been able to rewatch games like I've often done in prior seasons. In the past, I'd even watch parts of a reply in slow motion to break down a game and focus on an individual player

when I'm watching a game live, I often get into the drama and emotion of the game, so don't see what is really happening, especially off the ball.

The above is a big disclaimer to my breakdown of the Cal offense, and it can be very far off. I'd welcome others to chime in and add/correct...

when we have our starting five of Paris, Bradley, Kelly, Grant and South, we play a 4 out, 1 in motion offense. By motion offense, we don't play with a lot of set plays or sets, but rather move/pass/screen with certain concepts/principals.

We don't play a traditional heavy inside and outside and multiple screening, many plays/sets 'princeton' offense, nor do we play a traditional inside out offense, and we certainly don't play a run and gun fast break offense

Instead we spread out the floor, creating driving opportunities for our guards. It's not quite the dribble drive offense, but there are similarities. But our offense doesn't kick the ball out on drives either because it's a different offense, or we aren't very good at it. I've commented the only player who kicks the ball is Brown.

For us to run our preferred offense, Grant needs to be on the court, as a stretch 4. I think Kelly can also step out, and at least hit the mid range consistently, but apparently Fox doesn't want him in that role (he wants his 5 to be in the paint). Kelly is often in the 'dunkers position' to either get a pass for an inside shot or dunk, or to crash the offensive boards.

Of course, all college offensives are multiple, change based on personnel and combos on the floor. We sometimes do play inside out with Kelly where we clear out for him, get him the ball in the post and let him back his man down for a low post score. If a defender doubles down, he kicks out

With 4 out, we almost always run defenders through high ball screens, and depending on the screener, try a pick and pop (for Grant) or a pick and roll (for Kelly, or others). We haven't perfected either yet, although we don't have the perfect personnel for pick and rolls.

Regarding execution, our perimeter passing improved. I often see the extra pass. We also don't have any players whom the ball sticks in their hands too long, which kills almost all offenses. This was a major problem with recent past seasons

Yet, we don't have the perfect personnel for the above offense. Ideally we'd have a shooting guard who can both hit the 3, and drive and finish/pass on the drive. I think the difference between cal's offense being adequate/average to very good is our 2 (sorry, don't want to be too harsh on South). Basically we are one player away from a very good offense.



Lots of good insight, as usual, but I can't let that last sentence go. "Basically we are one player away from a very good offense."? Geez, unless that one player was at the All-American level, I'd say we're a good three players away.
socaltownie
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We play a lot of high pick and roll sets. When those dont work we then go four out and iso. That changes with lars on the floor who we typically use as a weak side cutter to keep help honest. We also like to initiate the first high pick at the 20 second mark and run those looks with the iso coming at10 since fox understands our best chance is to shorten the number of possessions. Team that succeed against us have ways of defending the rim or are quick enough up top to hard "hedge" the pick and roll action
Take care of your Chicken
bluesaxe
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HoopDreams said:

I think most people agree our offensive coaching is improved, although we are certainly not setting the world on fire, so I say 'most people'

but what is our offense?

I've been crazy busy this season, so haven't been able to watch all games, and haven't been able to rewatch games like I've often done in prior seasons. In the past, I'd even watch parts of a reply in slow motion to break down a game and focus on an individual player

when I'm watching a game live, I often get into the drama and emotion of the game, so don't see what is really happening, especially off the ball.

The above is a big disclaimer to my breakdown of the Cal offense, and it can be very far off. I'd welcome others to chime in and add/correct...

when we have our starting five of Paris, Bradley, Kelly, Grant and South, we play a 4 out, 1 in motion offense. By motion offense, we don't play with a lot of set plays or sets, but rather move/pass/screen with certain concepts/principals.

We don't play a traditional heavy inside and outside and multiple screening, many plays/sets 'princeton' offense, nor do we play a traditional inside out offense, and we certainly don't play a run and gun fast break offense

Instead we spread out the floor, creating driving opportunities for our guards. It's not quite the dribble drive offense, but there are similarities. But our offense doesn't kick the ball out on drives either because it's a different offense, or we aren't very good at it. I've commented the only player who kicks the ball is Brown.

For us to run our preferred offense, Grant needs to be on the court, as a stretch 4. I think Kelly can also step out, and at least hit the mid range consistently, but apparently Fox doesn't want him in that role (he wants his 5 to be in the paint). Kelly is often in the 'dunkers position' to either get a pass for an inside shot or dunk, or to crash the offensive boards.

Of course, all college offensives are multiple, change based on personnel and combos on the floor. We sometimes do play inside out with Kelly where we clear out for him, get him the ball in the post and let him back his man down for a low post score. If a defender doubles down, he kicks out

With 4 out, we almost always run defenders through high ball screens, and depending on the screener, try a pick and pop (for Grant) or a pick and roll (for Kelly, or others). We haven't perfected either yet, although we don't have the perfect personnel for pick and rolls.

Regarding execution, our perimeter passing improved. I often see the extra pass. We also don't have any players whom the ball sticks in their hands too long, which kills almost all offenses. This was a major problem with recent past seasons

Yet, we don't have the perfect personnel for the above offense. Ideally we'd have a shooting guard who can both hit the 3, and drive and finish/pass on the drive. I think the difference between cal's offense being adequate/average to very good is our 2 (sorry, don't want to be too harsh on South). Basically we are one player away from a very good offense.


I'd say we don't get much drive and kick because we aren't good at it. Seems like if Paris gets into the paint he's shooting or maybe dropping off to a big. If Brown gets into the paint he's more likely to kick but not much. I don't think this is a team that's a player away, but if you're just talking about that particular five and you add an athletic, long two with a high percentage outside shot it would make a huge difference. Then again, if you replaced Grant with an athletic, long four with a high percentage outside shot it would make a huge difference as well. Athleticism and shooting are lacking, which is why I think we have to work so hard to get a good shot and why taking the air out of the ball seems to be part of the game plan.
HearstMining
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You guys are more sophisticated in your analysis than I am, but it seems to me that we really need an athletic 3 with an outside shot. Harris-Dyson (athletic, improved defense, minimal offense) doesn't fill the bill, so Bradley plays the position, but gives up height. He should be our 2. In the brief minutes we've seen from Kuany, he moves well and the form of the few shots I've seen wasn't bad. I wonder if he could become a small forward. But he obviously has a lot to learn about basketball.

Also, it's stated above that we don't have ideal personnel for screen-and-roll. I think Kelly is a great candidate for this. He sets a pretty good screen and he's wide so he should be able to roll and have the defender on his butt as he looks for the pass. Kelly also has shown signs of a nice mid-range shot that says he can "pop" as well as roll. But it doesn't appear to me that our guards do a good job of using screens (actually, that's true of most college players now).
BeachedBear
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HoopDreams said:

.....

when I'm watching a game live, I often get into the drama and emotion of the game, so don't see what is really happening, especially off the ball.

You're doing it right! I broke down the offense more last year, because there was less to watch on the ball

....

when we have our starting five of Paris, Bradley, Kelly, Grant and South, we play a 4 out, 1 in motion offense. By motion offense, we don't play with a lot of set plays or sets, but rather move/pass/screen with certain concepts/principals.

It seems like we change it up a little more based on matchups and rhythm. My guess is Paris, Bradley or the bench is calling an 'emphasis' of the motion each time down court.

....

Instead we spread out the floor, creating driving opportunities for our guards. It's not quite the dribble drive offense, but there are similarities. But our offense doesn't kick the ball out on drives either because it's a different offense, or we aren't very good at it. I've commented the only player who kicks the ball is Brown.

I think the kick out has been coming along slowly. Particularly in the last few games. I hope this is a reflection of the staff BUILDING the offense. Focusing on spacing and movement first. Or maybe its just the matchups. But I've noticed more kickouts the last few weeks - from Brown, Austin, Bradley and even South.

......

Yet, we don't have the perfect personnel for the above offense. Ideally we'd have a shooting guard who can both hit the 3, and drive and finish/pass on the drive. I think the difference between cal's offense being adequate/average to very good is our 2 (sorry, don't want to be too harsh on South). Basically we are one player away from a very good offense.

I'll just re-iterate what Big C said. We need much more than a perfect South. We also need a better stretch 4 and a rim protector. In other words; Bradley, a good Austin (of the last five weeks) and three more P12 starter level players are needed to compete in the top half of this conference.


sluggo
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I don't think Cal is one player away from greatness as they are 207 in KenPom adjusted offensive efficiency. Maybe one player away from being 170.

I like everything Fox has done except the offense, which I don't like at all. I think Cal does not set enough screens away from the ball, and of those they try to set they whiff way too often. They have some wide players who should be good screeners but are not.

On ball screens 30 feet from the basket are less effective because there is no illegal defense in college. This is exacerbated by having those screens set by the 5, who are not threatening on the roll and can't pop because they are not a shooter. I would like to see Grant A. setting those screens.

More generally, I think the offense is bad for Grant A., who I think could be a much better scorer if he played on the baseline and received non-whiffed downscreens so that he could cut to the corner three or curl inside where he can finish with both hands. He is also very good in the post in the few chances he gets. Alternatively, he would be a great 5 in a Princeton style offense. In the Fox offense, if he is not open on the wing he is often forced to try to take his man off the dribble, often leading to turnovers.

Cal tends to do better in the first half in terms of patterned offense. In the second half they tend to just have Bradley or Austin alternate going one-on-one. They are both good at it, but it does not work against very athletic teams like USC or well-coached teams like Utah. I don't think so much one-on-one is conducive to success unless they are going to recruit much better.

Sluggo
TheSouseFamily
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A ball screen intensive offense is only effective when the pick/roll and pick/pop action draws in a third defender. That's how you get open threes and better driving lanes. Opposing defenses don't need to move a third defender against us who might be guarding someone like South or Brown or whomever, which makes things problematic and an uphill battle. It's also why we're in the bottom 10 nationally in taking threes. But Fox obviously wants to takes threes; we just aren't set up to do that now with the way we're defended. Instead of forcing it, we're looking elsewhere which makes sense efficiency-wise. The recent offers suggest that this is an area where Fox really wants to focus. The whole thing changes with a 6'7 wing that can shoot and penetrate. Just look at UVA this year versus last.

That said, Fox has gotten more from our talent offensively than we've had with previous coaches. Even though our offensive is statistically about as bad as it was last year from an efficiency standpoint, we're treading water with less talent. So that's good. Gone are the days of having your least efficient player like Don Coleman having the highest usage. Our usage rates are more closely aligned with efficiency than we've had in a while which I find encouraging.

For now, we have to maximize efficiency with sub-par talent by being methodical, avoiding turnovers and grinding out possessions, hoping to find lapses where a defensive player is briefly out of position at the end of a possession. Ideally, that frees up Kelly for a post feed and a 1:1 opportunity in the post, an open driving lane for Bradley/Austin or a 3/mid-range jumper from Anticevich or South.
HoopDreams
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lots of great analysis, comments and observations

we are actually talking about basketball, and not burritos!

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