helltopay1 said:

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Dear Bearister: I'm deeply concerned about your reading comprehension as well as your tendency to use expletives in an unseemly manner. You present as young and angry. I instructed my terminally ill hamster to read my post to see if he could detect any factual or grammatical errors. He said it was fine in all respects. Your retort convinces me that , in addition to Civics, Reading Comprehension is no longer taught in the fourth grade. More is the pity.

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Bearister is far too kind.

NeverOddOrEven said:

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SFCityBear said:

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mdbear said:

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I have to admit, I was not impressed when Mark Fox was hired. After nine years at Georgia, his team had been to the NCAA Tournament just twice and never made it past the first round. I am pleased to say that Fox has far surpassed my expectations for his first year. Despite losing a lot of talent to transfers, he has already won eight conference games, which is three more than Wyking Jones won in two seasons at the helm. The Bears are far better on defense, tougher overall, and have shown they can be competitive with the best teams in the conference. Granted, this is only his far year, and moving a team from awful to respectability is not the same as contending for a spot in the NCAA tournament every year (my hope for the program). Still, I have to give credit where it is due. It is nice to be pleasantly surprised.

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Isn't it more fun to be following an improving team, no matter what the level of play? Small correction: Fox has won 7 conference games, not 8. Still a shot at 9 wins, a .500 PAC12 season and a remote shot in getting a first round bye in the PAC12 tournament.

Go Bears!

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Nit: there's no chance of a first round bye since there's 5 teams with 10+ wins and the most we can get is 9 wins.

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Thanks for the correction. That is what I get for believing PAC 12 TV announcers.

stu said:

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Big C said:

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2. I can't WAIT to see how Vanover does next season. One of us is going to be formally apologizing. His defense was unbelievably bad the first several games last season, but he had become something resembling a rim protector by March. As for Sueing, he was a pretty good player, but I didn't care for his too-cool-for-this-team demeanor.

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I'd say Vanover was playing a lot better at the end of his frosh season than Thiemann on any occasion I've witnessed. I expect Vanover to have an impact as a redshirt soph.

I'm not so sure about Sueing as his game is more conventional than Vanover's. I'll be interested to see how he fits on a good Ohio State team, I'm guessing he'll be a solid player there.

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Actually, given tOSU's ability to recruit, I doubt Sueing plays more than 10' a game.

NVBear78 said:

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For all those on the fence still: Who could have done a better job this year???

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I think it is pretty clear the issue isn't this year for those still on the fence. Even his biggest skeptics knew the team would be better than last year and it's done even better than expected. Everyone knew he has a high floor. What still looms on the other side of the fence is his track record at his last P5 team. Georgia never failed to win at least 14 games (1 more than this year so far), but only got to the tourney twice in 9 years. Until Cal gets back in on a consistent basis, the detractors will remain on the fence.

UrsaMajor said:

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stu said:

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Big C said:

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2. I can't WAIT to see how Vanover does next season. One of us is going to be formally apologizing. His defense was unbelievably bad the first several games last season, but he had become something resembling a rim protector by March. As for Sueing, he was a pretty good player, but I didn't care for his too-cool-for-this-team demeanor.

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I'd say Vanover was playing a lot better at the end of his frosh season than Thiemann on any occasion I've witnessed. I expect Vanover to have an impact as a redshirt soph.

I'm not so sure about Sueing as his game is more conventional than Vanover's. I'll be interested to see how he fits on a good Ohio State team, I'm guessing he'll be a solid player there.

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Actually, given tOSU's ability to recruit, I doubt Sueing plays more than 10' a game.

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It's sad when kids go elsewhere thinking it will be a better situation. Of those that left the program in the last ten years, who has gone to do at least fairly well? I'm probably missing someone, but I can only think of Charlie Moore (and only now, as he got no PT at Kansas). OK Jordan Mathews for sure. Just remembered. But even then not sure his stock went up for the next level, his opportunities went down. But he did get to play in a NC game.

Haas. Much as I enjoy teasing how he "put on a few" and is now the Furd coach when his dad passed it was really hard on him and going to Kansas under Roy clearly was a great move in terms of launching his career.

But yeah - a Furd so suck it lard boy.

ncbears said:

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i thought it was interesting and nice that in the post game presser, Fox mentioned Wyking Jones and that he talks to Coach Jones. He did not criticize Jones as a coach or person. He did say that he got tired of people last summer telling him how bad the team would be this year and his belief that would not be the case. While that may come from belief in his coaching abilities or just an overwhelming sense of optimism, he didn't cast aspersions on the quality of the team he inherited. He simply stated that he needed to get the players to buy into him.

And I agree that Trent Johnson may be having a quiet influence - recall how much better the Campanellil Bears got when Gary Colson was the assistant head coach!

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Good post

bluesaxe said:

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GoCal80 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

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I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

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I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

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Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

Civil Bear said:

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NVBear78 said:

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For all those on the fence still: Who could have done a better job this year???

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I think it is pretty clear the issue isn't this year for those still on the fence. Even his biggest skeptics knew the team would be better than last year and it's done even better than expected. Everyone knew he has a high floor. What still looms on the other side of the fence is his track record at his last P5 team. Georgia never failed to win at least 14 games (1 more than this year so far), but only got to the tourney twice in 9 years. Until Cal gets back in on a consistent basis, the detractors will remain on the fence.

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Good post. And to reiterate, while I highly faulted Knowlton for hiring Fox based on the above, I don't fault Fox for taking the job and I am rooting for him. Yes, we know he has a high floor, the question is his ceiling. However, past performance does not always predict future results. People can change and improve. Sometimes things click in a new situation. Sometimes you get lucky. I am hoping Fox succeeds, gets us to regular tournament runs and makes Knowlton look like a genius.

helltopay1 said:

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Dear Bearister: I'm deeply concerned about your reading comprehension as well as your tendency to use expletives in an unseemly manner. You present as young and angry. I instructed my terminally ill hamster to read my post to see if he could detect any factual or grammatical errors. He said it was fine in all respects. Your retort convinces me that , in addition to Civics, Reading Comprehension is no longer taught in the fourth grade. More is the pity.

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bluesaxe said:

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bearister said:

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" Vanover was the reason Cal was respectable late last year." When were we respectable, before or after the 16 consecutive losses?

I never said Lars was better than Vanover in my rant above. I did suggest it at the beginning of this season when Lars looked like he had potential....but he ended up having a 7 foot project player season. I would be willing to compare their stats during their 4th seasons and put $50 on Lars. I am also happy Kelly got any minutes Vanover would have taken away from him. If Vanover's team is good enough where his three ball is going to beat you, they will put a man on him. He is a catch and shoot guy. He can't free up with a dribble and he can't jump, and my recollection was almost all of his 3's were uncontested.
Let's see if he does jack for the Razorbacks. Now I have to put them on my ESPN favorites list.

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A skinny 7' kid who hadn't grown into his man's body couldn't take guys off the dribble or play good man defense? Shocking.

Guys like that usually aren't going to be ready their first year and he wasn't. But I'm betting he will come back from this year off a lot stronger and more mobile. And he provides two valuable things for any team - rim protection and enough shooting to stretch the floor for others. He was the one guy I was sorry to see leave.

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I wish more on this board would cut Lars that slack. I think when Vanover plays his team can only play Zone D or else Vanover's man will...

Overall, I expected Fox and staff to do a decent job coaching, but they have exceeded my expectations. The big long term question, however, always has been how well Fox can recruit.

As pointed out elsewhere, that doesn't necessarily mean bagging a lot of big time recruits, but getting the right players for what Fox wants to run. Although it is hard to imagine huge success without guys who can shoot better than what he have now. Overall, I'm not a lot less skeptical than I was right after the hire. Can Fox manage to recruit at Cal in a manner that leads to better results than what he got in 9 years at Georgia? I'm skeptical. But hopeful.

I'm very impressed with how Fox got this team to buy in, and how, with VERY few exceptions (UW in Seattle being one), the team as a whole play hard, continued to play good defense, even when falling behind. The kind of body language we saw WAY too much of last year hasn't been there. I think about the LSJU game at Haas. We got down 11 points, with our offense. Last year we lose that game by more than 20. This year, we win.

Fox has also gotten a lot of improvement out of a lot of players, both good players like Bradley and players who wouldn't be starting for any team in the conference.

And in spite of our offensive struggles, I've been impressed with how the offense as worked. Even when the team isn't scoring, it is generally watchable. It is frustrating when the team can't hit good shots, but at least they hit good shots. I wonder how much Johnson helps the offense work well.

I am happy that Fox seems to make use of the knowledge on his coaching staff, unlike some others. Mention was made in this thread of Campy and Colson, but Campy wasted Colson's abilities in the first year Colson was on staff, only after Campy's wife got in the car accident and he let Colson take over the offense did things improve. I don't think Fox is afraid to let Johnson be involved.

Fox is more of a screamer than I like to see, but that hasn't caused him to lose the team, instead, they seem to have bought in and (almost) always busted their butts. Jones was the complete opposite, pretty dispassionate. Screamer or calm, I don't know that I've ever seen anyone as dispassionate as Jones, and the team too often reflected that personality -- they didn't give a crap.

Saturday against the Utes, there was a moment in the earlier part of the second half when there seemed to be some confusion about what the offensive set was supposed to be. It looked like Kelly was explaining to the bench something, and Fox just yelled, "Get your ass over there!" That may be a good time to scream, when the ball is in play and guys need to move fast. Yeah, Fox is a screamer, but so long as the team is buying in and busting their asses, wherever they may be, I'm good.

I don't know how anyone can fail to be impressed with the job Fox did this year. That doesn't make him the right guy for the job, unfortunately, recruiting will tell the story there. I'm still skeptical, but hopeful.

bearister said:

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" Fox' long-term success will depend, to a considerable extent, on who leaves..."

Who the f that is worth a sh@it is leaving? What are you even talking about?

" Fox sustained a serious blow when three very good players decided to leave at the end of last year....... exodus of top players...."

I think Darius McNeill would have flourished under this coaching staff. I really liked that young man and it hurt that he left.

With regard to the Headband, he would have been in Matt Bradley's way. With regard to the Man Bun, the key to this team's improvement was defensive intensity. The Man Bun couldn't D up a 6 th grade CYO player driving to the hoop. With regard to his circus act trey ball, no one bothered to guard him because we were a 16 consecutive loss team. I will formally apologize if he ends up being an impact player at Arkansas. When he was in the game, it was 5 vs 4 when Bears were on D. Good f'ing riddance to those two.

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When I'm in my "glass half empty mode" I conjure images of Bradley deciding to declare for the NBA. Other than that, I don't foresee any debilitating departures.

annarborbear said:

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bluesaxe said:

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GoCal80 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

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I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

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I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

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Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

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Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

pierrezo said:

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bearister said:

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I can't help but believe Trent Johnson has had significant input into the Bears' success. Not many programs are fortunate enough to have an assistant coach with 17 years of HC experience.

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I was about to say the same thing. There was a tv shot of Fox and Trent sitting next to each other on the bench during the last game. We were up on Utah - playing great defense with an organized offense. That gave me the feeling that everything's going to be good with these guys in charge.

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What exactly is Trent Johnson's role with the team? He always sits next to Fox on the bench during games, and is frequently in conversation with Fox, but he is not listed as an Assistant Coach on the rosters handed out in the Haas lobby before each game.

He is considered a basketball analyst. In charge of player development.
As basketball analyst, Johnson will be available for a range of duties, excluding on-court coaching of players during practice and recruiting.

Dear 59bear: If your image comes to fruition,
1) Who is the next AD)
2) who is the next coach?

I'm with you on Vanover. For me, that was the loss. The others' talents could be and were replaced. Vanover at the end of the year, extrapolated into this year's roster, makes this at least an NIT team, IMO.

I probably understated McNeil and Sueing's contributions. If everyone returns from last year and we lose Thiemann and a couple others, Mark Fox has some good talent to work with. Tough to measure impact of attitudes and effort. Perhaps some good coaching (and winning) gets better effort out of guys.

Anyway, I am pleased with what Fox has gotten out of this roster. This is about the ceiling for what I could have imagined.

dear barrister: Half of an average person? mr. Carlin was funny, but that quip could have used more clarity. Of course, I don't mean to quibble, but, yes, when you consider that a soon-to-be 79 year old life-long communist who honeymooned in the Soviet Union and who just suffered a major heart attack might become President of the US, then perhaps Mr. Carlin understands American IQ better than most.

bearister said:

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Albert Einstein: "Two things are infinite, as far as we know - the universe and human stupidity."

Harlan Ellison: "The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity."

Frank Zappa: "There is more stupidity around than hydrogen and it has a longer shelf life."

helltopay1 said:

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dear barrister: Half of an average person? mr. Carlin was funny, but that quip could have used more clarity. Of course, I don't mean to quibble, but, yes, when you consider that a soon-to-be 79 year old life-long communist who honeymooned in the Soviet Union and who just suffered a major heart attack might become President of the US, then perhaps Mr. Carlin understands American IQ better than most.

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LOL. I'm no Bernie fan but I LOVE THAT HES MAKING YOU CRAZIER.

Golden One said:

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annarborbear said:

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bluesaxe said:

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GoCal80 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

---

I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

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I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

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Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

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Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

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It can happen occasionally for a rare individual. But you can't count on that as a strategy for our program. And the coaches who recruit that type of player are also not known for staying here very long.

Californication said:

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I'm with you on Vanover. For me, that was the loss. The others' talents could be and were replaced. Vanover at the end of the year, extrapolated into this year's roster, makes this at least an NIT team, IMO.

I probably understated McNeil and Sueing's contributions. If everyone returns from last year and we lose Thiemann and a couple others, Mark Fox has some good talent to work with. Tough to measure impact of attitudes and effort. Perhaps some good coaching (and winning) gets better effort out of guys.

Anyway, I am pleased with what Fox has gotten out of this roster. This is about the ceiling for what I could have imagined.

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The season isn't over yet.

Lets get a win in Oregon and a win in the pac12 tournament!

I hope the Cayman Islands stops advertising. They ask you to visit but then turn cruise ships away.

Golden One said:

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annarborbear said:

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bluesaxe said:

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GoCal80 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

---

I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

---

I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

---

Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

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Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

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Brown and Rabb plus Jason Kidd, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Ryan Anderson and if he wasn't injured Leon Powe or if he had played better Bird... plus if they didn't go straight to the NBA Nowitski and maybe even Lebron...

calumnus said:

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Golden One said:

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annarborbear said:

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bluesaxe said:

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GoCal80 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

---

I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

---

I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

---

Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

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Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

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Brown and Rabb plus Jason Kidd, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Ryan Anderson and if he wasn't injured Leon Powe or if he had played better Bird... plus if they didn't go straight to the NBA Nowitski and maybe even Lebron...

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During the past 10 years, Wisconsin has two conference championships and six Sweet Sixteen or better tournament appearances. In that same time, Virginia has five conference championship and three Sweet Sixteen or better appearances. Over a 60-year period dating back to 1960, Cal has exactly one conference championship and two Sweet Sixteen appearances in six decades.

Again, we can get an occasional superstar-caliber player, especially if they have grown up locally. But I think we will need to be a program like Wisconsin or Virginia that builds around solid four-year players and great team basketball. Fox does need to upgrade the roster. But we will have our best shot for sustained success with a Wisconsin or Virginia approach, and a coach who stays for a while and who can make us greater than the sum of our parts.

calumnus said:

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Golden One said:

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annarborbear said:

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bluesaxe said:

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GoCal80 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

---

I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

---

I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

---

Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

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Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

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Brown and Rabb plus Jason Kidd, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Ryan Anderson and if he wasn't injured Leon Powe or if he had played better Bird... plus if they didn't go straight to the NBA Nowitski and maybe even Lebron...

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That's 6 over 30 years, not exactly something to rely on.

bearister said:

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helltopay1 said:

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Dear Bearister: I'm deeply concerned about your reading comprehension as well as your tendency to use expletives in an unseemly manner. You present as young and angry. I instructed my terminally ill hamster to read my post to see if he could detect any factual or grammatical errors. He said it was fine in all respects. Your retort convinces me that , in addition to Civics, Reading Comprehension is no longer taught in the fourth grade. More is the pity.

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This is officially my favorite quote

I'm reading these "arguments' and I find them puzzling.

Some things are subjective. Some are just hard facts, regardless of opinion.

It's an undeniable fact that Jones had far more talent on his teams in his two years coaching than Fox has now. The reason his teams did so poorly was because he was a poor COACH, not because he didn't have enough talent. There's no comparison when it comes to raw talent.

It's also an undeniable fact that the players who left before Fox was hired were far more talented than the players Fox replaced them with. For one thing, Fox left a scholarship open, so right away the talent advantage goes to the departing player. The others, cumon. You might personally like the new guys, but the guys who left are considerably more talented.

Cal this season has the least talented team in the Pac 12. Period. Cal did not have the least talented team the prior two year, just the worst team on the court by a huge margin. But in terms of pure talent, it was probably middle of the Pac. This season's team is the least talented team in the conference - they're winning because of good coaching and player development. They're not going to out-talent anyone.

Would Cal be better if the three guys hadn't transferred? Almost certainly. Would those three players be a lot better under Fix than they were languishing under Jones? Duh.

Cal is doing as well as they can with the tools they have. The Bears absolutely need more talent if they're going to compete at the top of the conference. A lot more. If Fox is going to leverage his abilities as a coach, he needs talent that is comparable to the rest of the conference. If he can land that talent (and nobody should expect instant success on the recruiting front), Cal will be in the NCAA tourney hunt on a regular basis. Whether he will or not, we'll know in the next two years. But the arguments that Cal A) has talent, B) didn't lose talent, or C) doesn't need a lot of talent are just silly and objectively wrong.

You can argue about Vanover's upside but he's head and shoulders above Lars - I mean look how good he was when he didn't even have a coach, imagine how much better he'll be with one?

"You can argue about Vanover's upside but he's head and shoulders above Lars - I mean look how good he was when he didn't even have a coach, imagine how much better he'll be with one?"

The beauty of this situation is that in 2 years, the verdict will be in. Vanover is a good shooter. My question is will he ever be able to move his feet well enough to play man to man defense and will he ever get strong enough where other bigs don't simply push him out of the way. It will also be interesting if he has durability issues when he plays more. I'm sure he is a decent kid so I hope he joins the long list of players I failed to scout properly.

Two years from now I will post their respective stats of their 4th season. If Vanover crushes Lars I will accompany my post with a self flagellation gif and if Lars crushes Vanover it will be a woofing gif of some sort.

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/badgers/wisconsin-coach-bo-ryan-builds-successful-teams-with-fundamentals-b99475347z1-298735691.html/

Yes. We should simply keep trying to hire guys until we find someone like Bo or Bennet. Bo was a D3 powerhouse who achieved everywhere he was before going to Wisky (paging University of Georgia). Bennet the younger was recommended by Dick Bennet who had gotten to a final four and understood what it took (paging Travis)

hmm......

Mike Williams....call on line 6.

+1.

Sueing and Vanover would be starting and playing the bulk of the minutes at their position. And with respect to South and the center rotation of Kelly and Lars, that would be a big upgrade and likely result in Cal possibly being a bubble team (perhaps a bit optimistic, but likely, IMO). Maybe we win against Texas instead of getting our doors blown off in the 2nd Half. Maybe we win 1 or 2 of the games against those Bay Area WCC teams. Maybe we beat BC and Harvard. Maybe we're 9-7 instead of 7-9 in conference. Who knows? But that's a 5-7 game swing and we're looking at 18-11 or 19-10 or 20-9 instead of 13-16.

Uthaithani said:

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I'm reading these "arguments' and I find them puzzling.

Some things are subjective. Some are just hard facts, regardless of opinion.

It's an undeniable fact that Jones had far more talent on his teams in his two years coaching than Fox has now. The reason his teams did so poorly was because he was a poor COACH, not because he didn't have enough talent. There's no comparison when it comes to raw talent.

It's also an undeniable fact that the players who left before Fox was hired were far more talented than the players Fox replaced them with. For one thing, Fox left a scholarship open, so right away the talent advantage goes to the departing player. The others, cumon. You might personally like the new guys, but the guys who left are considerably more talented.

Cal this season has the least talented team in the Pac 12. Period. Cal did not have the least talented team the prior two year, just the worst team on the court by a huge margin. But in terms of pure talent, it was probably middle of the Pac. This season's team is the least talented team in the conference - they're winning because of good coaching and player development. They're not going to out-talent anyone.

Would Cal be better if the three guys hadn't transferred? Almost certainly. Would those three players be a lot better under Fix than they were languishing under Jones? Duh.

Cal is doing as well as they can with the tools they have. The Bears absolutely need more talent if they're going to compete at the top of the conference. A lot more. If Fox is going to leverage his abilities as a coach, he needs talent that is comparable to the rest of the conference. If he can land that talent (and nobody should expect instant success on the recruiting front), Cal will be in the NCAA tourney hunt on a regular basis. Whether he will or not, we'll know in the next two years. But the arguments that Cal A) has talent, B) didn't lose talent, or C) doesn't need a lot of talent are just silly and objectively wrong.

You can argue about Vanover's upside but he's head and shoulders above Lars - I mean look how good he was when he didn't even have a coach, imagine how much better he'll be with one?

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Sueing would not have been happy about the fact Bradley is the elite player not him. Adios, Sueing, have a nice life. Darius McNeill would have been a great and much needed role player on the team. He was a streak shooter whom I think would have increased in confidence and consistency under a non 4th grade CYO coach.

annarborbear said:

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Golden One said:

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annarborbear said:

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bluesaxe said:

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GoCal80 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

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I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

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I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

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Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

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Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

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It can happen occasionally for a rare individual. But you can't count on that as a strategy for our program. And the coaches who recruit that type of player are also not known for staying here very long.

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Recruiting one and dones seems to me to be a destructive strategy, because you have to replace that player every year with another one, and with the large number of teams now and the number of schools which have a chance of landing them each year is only a handful, making the odds of success long term for a program is not good, unless you are one of the top say 10 programs. There are still a number of 5-star players each year who might not be one and done, like a Bird or a Rabb, so we can still put in some effort to landing them, instead of trying to land one and dones. The 4 stars are most interesting to me, because they are not likely to leave in one year, and may stay 3 years like Crabbe, or even 4 years. No matter what Jaylen Brown did for us, his departure left a hole we have yet to fill.

bearister said:

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Sueing would not have been happy about the fact Bradley is the elite player not him. Adios, Sueing, have a nice life. Darius McNeill would have been a great and much needed role player on the team. He was a streak shooter whom I think would have increased in confidence and consistency under a non 4th grade CYO coach.

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I'm curious what you base that on, seeing as how he has transferred to the 19th-ranked team in the country, where he will most certainly not be "the elite player." By his actions, he has actually made it clear that being in a winning environment is actually more important than being "the elite player." And I'd argue that if Sueing (and/or Vanover had stayed), they (along with Bradley) would have been more of a 2/3-headed offensive monster that we could have benefited from, putting us in bubble contention as tsubamoto says.

I'd guess that after his two years here, and without much guarantee that things would improve dramatically, he made a decision that he actually wanted to experience being part of a winning team. Maybe if he (and/or Vanover) had known that Fox would have such a dramatic impact, he might have stayed. Or maybe there were enough things about both the program and the school that he wanted a change from. But I feel it overly harsh to cast aspersions on Sueing when what he chose was the opposite of needing to be the elite player.