Betrayal engenders negative speculation. One thing is clear, the player that was better by an exponential factor didn't haul a$$ from the trench during the rocket attack.

bearister said:

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Sueing would not have been happy about the fact Bradley is the elite player not him. Adios, Sueing, have a nice life. Darius McNeill would have been a great and much needed role player on the team. He was a streak shooter whom I think would have increased in confidence and consistency under a non 4th grade CYO coach.

---

Justice had no right hand. (That must be an epiphany. Either you or Oaktown, please advise.) Anyway Justice Sueing (That is a strange combination of words - How can justice sue anyone? Don't we sue someone to get justice?) Back to your post, the guy had no right hand. Couldn't drive right, dribble with his right, pass with his right, or shoot with his right hand, as I remember. He also could not create his own three pointer, and didn't shoot the three very well. The fact that he scored fairly well is a testament to his ability to score by driving left and shooting left.

And as far as I know, Jonesy never coached anywhere as a head coach, CYO or otherwise, before he landed the Cal job. He must be a helluva talker, though.

I would have preferred that all three transfers had come back since they all added value in different ways. But McNeill was easily the most replaceable. He was basically a stand-up shooter and not much else. I always laughed at the idea that he fashioned himself as a point guard. Ideally, point guards need to do four things: create scoring for others, create scoring for yourself, get to the line and limit turnovers. McNeill was abysmal at all of those except for limiting turnovers. His assist rate was horrific. He couldn't create for himself (his assisted FG rate was extremely high) and his FTr was about 1/3 of what Austin's and Bradley's is. He's simply not a point guard. He's an average 3 point shooter when open and there's some value to that but on the whole, he didn't do much for me. We could use an average 3 point shooter this year so I wish he'd come back but his departure was not one I lost sleep over.

Sueing's departure was complicated, and as is often the case, there were family dynamics involved. I do agree with SFCity that he is overrated by many on this Board because he was the "best" on an awful team.

TheSouseFamily said:

---

I would have preferred that all three transfers had come back since they all added value in different ways. But McNeill was easily the most replaceable. He was basically a stand-up shooter and not much else. I always laughed at the idea that he fashioned himself as a point guard. Ideally, point guards need to do four things: create scoring for others, create scoring for yourself, get to the line and limit turnovers. McNeill was abysmal at all of those except for limiting turnovers. His assist rate was horrific. He couldn't create for himself (his assisted FG rate was extremely high) and his FTr was about 1/3 of what Austin's and Bradley's is. He's simply not a point guard. He's an average 3 point shooter when open and there's some value to that but on the whole, he didn't do much for me. We could use an average 3 point shooter this year so I wish he'd come back but his departure was not one I lost sleep over.

---

He averaged 11 points a game on a team that had no coach and no plan. We could have used him off the bench. He played with too much humility. He could ball. Fox and Trent would have really helped him...and last, but not least, he didn't wear a f'ing headband, which was a really good look during game 16 of the losing streak. I remember how clownish it looked in 2003 when UCLA lost 12 conference games with Jason Kapono and his posse wearing headbands. Lack of commitment to excellence.










*Nice palming, Jason.

South can hit three when open. Many can. Problem is he is rarely open

SFCityBear said:

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annarborbear said:

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Golden One said:

---

annarborbear said:

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bluesaxe said:

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GoCal80 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

---

This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

---

I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

---

I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

---

Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

---

Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

---

It can happen occasionally for a rare individual. But you can't count on that as a strategy for our program. And the coaches who recruit that type of player are also not known for staying here very long.

---

Recruiting one and dones seems to me to be a destructive strategy, because you have to replace that player every year with another one, and with the large number of teams now and the number of schools which have a chance of landing them each year is only a handful, making the odds of success long term for a program is not good, unless you are one of the top say 10 programs. There are still a number of 5-star players each year who might not be one and done, like a Bird or a Rabb, so we can still put in some effort to landing them, instead of trying to land one and dones. The 4 stars are most interesting to me, because they are not likely to leave in one year, and may stay 3 years like Crabbe, or even 4 years. No matter what Jaylen Brown did for us, his departure left a hole we have yet to fill.

---

It also makes it really important to find people who want to play on a team rather than simply to demonstrate their individual skills. We are lucky that we had that kind of people on our team this year.

I don't disagree, bearister. Like I said, I wish McNeill had come back. Would prefer him over South if I had a choice. I don't blame anyone for transferring but glad we found South late in the cycle. But if McNeill wants to be a PG, it was better that he tries that out elsewhere.

calumnus said:

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Golden One said:

---

annarborbear said:

---

bluesaxe said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

---

I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

---

I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

---

Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

---

Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

---

Brown and Rabb plus Jason Kidd, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Ryan Anderson and if he wasn't injured Leon Powe or if he had played better Bird... plus if they didn't go straight to the NBA Nowitski and maybe even Lebron...

---

You left out #23 ranked five star Jamal Sampson, who stayed for a year and left. He was decent on defense and rebounding, but making an open shot from 3 feet away was a challenge. BTW, Ryan Anderson was not a top 100 player, nor was he a 5-star recruit. He was only a 4-star recruit, and not projected to leave early for the NBA, like the others you mentioned. He would be exactly the type of player I would be looking for. Not a 5-star, and maybe good enough to jump to the NBA, or maybe might take a little longer to develop, give you 2 good or three good years. Looking at how raw as freshmen the players were in this list of yours, I don't see any of them gave us a lot in those years anyway. Only Kidd and Shareef were really outstanding as freshmen. BTW, the teams they played on as freshmen were not our best teams.

Nowitski, and even more so, Lebron, are woulda, shoulda, coulda, and are fantasy talk, not reality.

Ryan actually had worse hands than Lars. Volume pass fumbler.

TheSouseFamily said:

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I don't disagree, bearister. Like I said, I wish McNeill had come back. Would prefer him over South if I had a choice. I don't blame anyone for transferring but glad we found South late in the cycle. But if McNeill wants to be a PG, it was better that he tries that out elsewhere.

---

I agree with that.

I wil return to this.....

A) COACH k can literally get 95 percent of the kids in the country
B) he could load his roster with 4 year four stars and clearly coach them up
C) he know more about hoops than you and I ever will
D) he decided that the best way for him to win is with one and dones.

Now the more interesting argument is whether it is not linear....that if you cant recruit a lot of one and dones every year it is self destructive. But I am not sure we have seen that in a program. Marti. Doesnt count....bailed way too soon.

helltopay1 said:

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Dear NYC: If Bernie isn't making you crazy, you haven't been paying attention to History, Economics, Culture, World War 11, the Cold War, the Constitution, the founding of our country, the Federalist papers, the History of Communism/socialism since Adam & Eve, Communist China, Communist Russia, the history of Capitalism, the 1,876,985 books on why freedom & free enterprise is superior to communism/socialism, etc. Other than that, your powers of observation are wonderful. Comrade????

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Yes Bernie makes me Crazy. Don't worry. He wont be the Nominee .

UrsaMajor said:

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Sueing's departure was complicated, and as is often the case, there were family dynamics involved. I do agree with SFCity that he is overrated by many on this Board because he was the "best" on an awful team.

---

Bradley was the best.

socaltownie said:

---

I wil return to this.....

A) COACH k can literally get 95 percent of the kids in the country
B) he could load his roster with 4 year four stars and clearly coach them up
C) he know more about hoops than you and I ever will
D) he decided that the best way for him to win is with one and dones.

Now the more interesting argument is whether it is not linear....that if you cant recruit a lot of one and dones every year it is self destructive. But I am not sure we have seen that in a program. Marti. Doesnt count....bailed way too soon.

---

The one and dones dilemma may soon be moot anyway, since apparently the rule will soon change and the best who would have been one and done will enter the draft straight out of high school. Or so I understand.

I didn't realize that McNeill fashioned himself as a point guard. I thought he was billed as a combo guard, but Wyking used him at point guard, because he had no one else, especially since he designated Coleman at the "go to guy" in our offense, and that mean't he'd be the scorer, not McNeill. I don't think Coleman would have made a good point guard either. Wyking was caught with no real point guard, except Winston, who did not have the skills or talent to play in D1. I liked McNeill's 3 point shooting in his first pre-conference season. He was streaky, but he really could light it up. Then he ran into better defenses in the conference, and slumped. You are right that he couldn't create. His handle was OK bringing the ball up the floor, but in close quarters in the halfcourt, he had trouble creating. Still, perhaps a coach like Montgomery could have found ways to get him moving without the ball and get him open more often. Too bad he left. South really has trouble getting open, and when he does and misses a couple, he won't shoot, not even a 12-15 footer (which he is better at shooting than he is with threes, in the few games I have seen.) If we could land a productive small forward who could also rebound, it would free up Bradley to play the shooting guard, which is more natural for him, I think.

SFCityBear said:

---

socaltownie said:

---

I wil return to this.....

A) COACH k can literally get 95 percent of the kids in the country
B) he could load his roster with 4 year four stars and clearly coach them up
C) he know more about hoops than you and I ever will
D) he decided that the best way for him to win is with one and dones.

Now the more interesting argument is whether it is not linear....that if you cant recruit a lot of one and dones every year it is self destructive. But I am not sure we have seen that in a program. Marti. Doesnt count....bailed way too soon.

---

The one and dones dilemma may soon be moot anyway, since apparently the rule will soon change and the best who would have been one and done will enter the draft straight out of high school. Or so I understand.

---

They keep going back and forth on this. The NBA should recognize the tremendous value college basketball has for the NBA in developing marketable talent for the league. The rule should be two years in college, the D-League or overseas.

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Golden One said:

---

annarborbear said:

---

bluesaxe said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

---

I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

---

I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

---

Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

---

Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

---

Brown and Rabb plus Jason Kidd, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Ryan Anderson and if he wasn't injured Leon Powe or if he had played better Bird... plus if they didn't go straight to the NBA Nowitski and maybe even Lebron...

---

You left out #23 ranked five star Jamal Sampson, who stayed for a year and left. He was decent on defense and rebounding, but making an open shot from 3 feet away was a challenge. BTW, Ryan Anderson was not a top 100 player, nor was he a 5-star recruit. He was only a 4-star recruit, and not projected to leave early for the NBA, like the others you mentioned. He would be exactly the type of player I would be looking for. Not a 5-star, and maybe good enough to jump to the NBA, or maybe might take a little longer to develop, give you 2 good or three good years. Looking at how raw as freshmen the players were in this list of yours, I don't see any of them gave us a lot in those years anyway. Only Kidd and Shareef were really outstanding as freshmen. BTW, the teams they played on as freshmen were not our best teams.

Nowitski, and even more so, Lebron, are woulda, shoulda, coulda, and are fantasy talk, not reality.

---

Yeah, Jamaal Sampson.

The point is it is not true to say "We are simply not the kind of program that will attract one-and-dones."

Though maybe if you add "currently" and "regularly" we would all be in agreement.

It's my understanding that Darius always saw himself as a lead guard dating back to HS and saw that as his future, potentially professionally. He played that spot in his first year and then played more of a wing spot in his second season when Wyking realized he wasn't really a true lead guard for a variety of reasons, including being able to handle himself defensively against quick guards. It sounds like that shift led to a lot of dissatisfaction and perhaps played a role in him transferring. My biggest objection was that he wasn't physical enough to play the spot. You won't find many lead guards (or wings) who absorbed fouls with less frequency than Darius. Granted, a lot of that can be attributed to how he was developed. That said, I've read that SMU doesn't plan to play him at the point so perhaps he had a come-to-Jesus moment where he realized that he just wasn't well suited at the point.

All that said, Darius seemed like a great kid and I think his desire to be closer to home and some legitimately sick family was legit. So I have zero ill will with his decision and I hope he does well at SMU.

calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Golden One said:

---

annarborbear said:

---

bluesaxe said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

---

I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

---

I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

---

Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

---

Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

---

Brown and Rabb plus Jason Kidd, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Ryan Anderson and if he wasn't injured Leon Powe or if he had played better Bird... plus if they didn't go straight to the NBA Nowitski and maybe even Lebron...

---

You left out #23 ranked five star Jamal Sampson, who stayed for a year and left. He was decent on defense and rebounding, but making an open shot from 3 feet away was a challenge. BTW, Ryan Anderson was not a top 100 player, nor was he a 5-star recruit. He was only a 4-star recruit, and not projected to leave early for the NBA, like the others you mentioned. He would be exactly the type of player I would be looking for. Not a 5-star, and maybe good enough to jump to the NBA, or maybe might take a little longer to develop, give you 2 good or three good years. Looking at how raw as freshmen the players were in this list of yours, I don't see any of them gave us a lot in those years anyway. Only Kidd and Shareef were really outstanding as freshmen. BTW, the teams they played on as freshmen were not our best teams.

Nowitski, and even more so, Lebron, are woulda, shoulda, coulda, and are fantasy talk, not reality.

---

Yeah, Jamaal Sampson.

The point is it is not true to say "We are simply not the kind of program that will attract one-and-dones."

Though maybe if you add "currently" and "regularly" we would all be in agreement.

---

I didn't mean to disagree with you. I just meant to add some information.

TheSouseFamily said:

---

It's my understanding that Darius always saw himself as a lead guard dating back to HS and saw that as his future, potentially professionally. He played that spot in his first year and then played more of a wing spot in his second season when Wyking realized he wasn't really a true lead guard for a variety of reasons, including being able to handle himself defensively against quick guards. It sounds like that shift led to a lot of dissatisfaction and perhaps played a role in him transferring. My biggest objection was that he wasn't physical enough to play the spot. You won't find many lead guards (or wings) who absorbed fouls with less frequency than Darius. Granted, a lot of that can be attributed to how he was developed. That said, I've read that SMU doesn't plan to play him at the point so perhaps he had a come-to-Jesus moment where he realized that he just wasn't well suited at the point.

All that said, Darius seemed like a great kid and I think his desire to be closer to home and some legitimately sick family was legit. So I have zero ill will with his decision and I hope he does well at SMU.

---

Interesting. Thanks for the information.

bearister said:

---

Ryan actually had worse hands than Lars. Volume pass fumbler.

---

Ryan actually improved quite a bit from his first year under Ben Braun's tutelage.

FG% from .476 to .490
3FG% from .382 to .410
FT% from .798 to .869
Rebs from 8.2 to 9.9
Assists from 0.5 to 1.4
Points from 16.3 to 21.1

TO's did increase from 1.4 to 2.2, but he was getting more touches in year two.

I would have liked to see what McNeil and Sueing would have done under the current staff. Judging by how the current staff has molded Paris and Kelly into much better players who understand and play to their strengths, I have confidence McNeil and Sueing could have been similarly coached up.

Water under the bridge. Time to recruit.

I think what gets lost in all the lamenting over McNeil, Vanover, and Sueing is that none of these players were high level recruits. IIRC Sueing was a local plan b type and Vanover wasn't even rated. McNeil May have been a borderline 4 star on one site. Despite all the shortcomings of the previous staff, they did a nice job developing these kids.

I'm skeptical of Fox's recruiting ability, but he should have no problem getting players at least as good out of HS as the above 3. And the current staff has shown they're adept at developing players.

TheSouseFamily said:

---

It's my understanding that Darius always saw himself as a lead guard dating back to HS and saw that as his future, potentially professionally. He played that spot in his first year and then played more of a wing spot in his second season when Wyking realized he wasn't really a true lead guard for a variety of reasons, including being able to handle himself defensively against quick guards. It sounds like that shift led to a lot of dissatisfaction and perhaps played a role in him transferring. My biggest objection was that he wasn't physical enough to play the spot. You won't find many lead guards (or wings) who absorbed fouls with less frequency than Darius. Granted, a lot of that can be attributed to how he was developed. That said, I've read that SMU doesn't plan to play him at the point so perhaps he had a come-to-Jesus moment where he realized that he just wasn't well suited at the point.

All that said, Darius seemed like a great kid and I think his desire to be closer to home and some legitimately sick family was legit. So I have zero ill will with his decision and I hope he does well at SMU.

---

I think McNeil was moved to SG his Soph year for two reasons:
1. He got beat out at PG by Austin
2. Jones wanted to keep his top 5 players in the lineup.

socaltownie said:

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http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/badgers/wisconsin-coach-bo-ryan-builds-successful-teams-with-fundamentals-b99475347z1-298735691.html/

Yes. We should simply keep trying to hire guys until we find someone like Bo or Bennet. Bo was a D3 powerhouse who achieved everywhere he was before going to Wisky (paging University of Georgia). Bennet the younger was recommended by Dick Bennet who had gotten to a final four and understood what it took (paging Travis)

hmm......

Mike Williams....call on line 6.

---

I am the originator of this post about being pleasantly surprised by Fox in his first year. I have degrees from both Cal and Virginia and follow both programs closely. I think it is fair to say that Fox is nowhere close to Tony Bennett, who is a rare find. Contrary to popular belief, Bennett usually does pretty well in recruiting talent. All three guys who left early for the NBA last year were top 100 players coming out of high school, and one was a McDonald's All-American. Virginia is suffering a little this year because Bennett slacked off in recruiting the past couple of years, but he has the 12th ranked class in the country coming in next year. My point is that even a strategic and motivational genius like Bennett needs to be able to recruit. My hope as I said in the original post is that Fox can recruit well enough so that Cal consistently is in the running for an NCAA tournament spot.

I believe that a really good option for this program is to go all-in on recruiting top foreigners, including Africans, Europeans and Australians. The lure of a top academic school like Cal will be more impactful for many of those recruits than for the very top US kids who are thinking "NBA or bust and don't burden me with academics along the way." That group may be more likely to hang around for several years too. On this board we argue constantly about the importance of getting the top US recruits, but I think we will only very sporadically succeed in getting such players. We should concentrate on groups that are more likely to care about what makes Cal special.

bearister said:

---

bluesaxe said:

---

bearister said:

---

" Vanover was the reason Cal was respectable late last year." When were we respectable, before or after the 16 consecutive losses?

I never said Lars was better than Vanover in my rant above. I did suggest it at the beginning of this season when Lars looked like he had potential....but he ended up having a 7 foot project player season. I would be willing to compare their stats during their 4th seasons and put $50 on Lars. I am also happy Kelly got any minutes Vanover would have taken away from him. If Vanover's team is good enough where his three ball is going to beat you, they will put a man on him. He is a catch and shoot guy. He can't free up with a dribble and he can't jump, and my recollection was almost all of his 3's were uncontested.
Let's see if he does jack for the Razorbacks. Now I have to put them on my ESPN favorites list.

---

A skinny 7' kid who hadn't grown into his man's body couldn't take guys off the dribble or play good man defense? Shocking.

Guys like that usually aren't going to be ready their first year and he wasn't. But I'm betting he will come back from this year off a lot stronger and more mobile. And he provides two valuable things for any team - rim protection and enough shooting to stretch the floor for others. He was the one guy I was sorry to see leave.

---

I wish more on this board would cut Lars that slack. I think when Vanover plays his team can only play Zone D or else Vanover's man will...

---

I agree about Lars. I think you're assuming that Vanover will not be quicker, more mobile and stronger next year. I would expect him to be a very different player after a year's experience and another year to work on such things.

mdbear said:

---

socaltownie said:

---

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/badgers/wisconsin-coach-bo-ryan-builds-successful-teams-with-fundamentals-b99475347z1-298735691.html/

Yes. We should simply keep trying to hire guys until we find someone like Bo or Bennet. Bo was a D3 powerhouse who achieved everywhere he was before going to Wisky (paging University of Georgia). Bennet the younger was recommended by Dick Bennet who had gotten to a final four and understood what it took (paging Travis)

hmm......

Mike Williams....call on line 6.

---

I am the originator of this post about being pleasantly surprised by Fox in his first year. I have degrees from both Cal and Virginia and follow both programs closely. I think it is fair to say that Fox is nowhere close to Tony Bennett, who is a rare find. Contrary to popular belief, Bennett usually does pretty well in recruiting talent. All three guys who left early for the NBA last year were top 100 players coming out of high school, and one was a McDonald's All-American. Virginia is suffering a little this year because Bennett slacked off in recruiting the past couple of years, but he has the 12th ranked class in the country coming in next year. My point is that even a strategic and motivational genius like Bennett needs to be able to recruit. My hope as I said in the original post is that Fox can recruit well enough so that Cal consistently is in the running for an NCAA tournament spot.

---

Trust me. I didn't agree that Virginia doesn't recruit at a high level. Really Bo Ryan _IS_ the outlier - but I am not at all convinced that his style would translate to the California recruiting waters.

Bearprof said:

---

I believe that a really good option for this program is to go all-in on recruiting top foreigners, including Africans, Europeans and Australians. The lure of a top academic school like Cal will be more impactful for many of those recruits than for the very top US kids who are thinking "NBA or bust and don't burden me with academics along the way." That group may be more likely to hang around for several years too. On this board we argue constantly about the importance of getting the top US recruits, but I think we will only very sporadically succeed in getting such players. We should concentrate on groups that are more likely to care about what makes Cal special.

---

No doubt but that means upping the recruiting budget (and probably supporting as many overseas trips as possible). It is also not clear to me that the ground on that front isn't shifting - with more foreign players coming over for a year of prep "school" and thus looking more and more like "normal" NCAA recruits.

calumnus said:

---

Golden One said:

---

annarborbear said:

---

bluesaxe said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

This team has far exceeded my expectations. Fox & company certainly made lemonade out of lemons. Ultimately, Fox's success will be impacted by his ability to recruit, which is to be determined.

---

I agree that he needs to recruit elite talent for the team to take the next step, but I thought he did a remarkable job pulling together his first class given the circumstances he stepped into.

---

I disagree that he needs to recruit elite talent. He needs to recruit good players who will fit and who will be here for a few years. He's show the ability to develop players, and there are a lot of players out there who aren't top-50 who have the raw materials to be very good with coaching.

Elite talent is great, but he needs to get this program on the kind of footing that will make elite talent consider coming. That will take some time and won't be built on AA types.

---

Totally agree. We are simply not the kind of program or style of play that will attract one-and-dones. Better to go for good players who can develop over time, play team basketball, and get a great degree. Virginia and Wisconsin have been very successful doing that. Throw in some international players, and we can make it back to the top third of the league with that formula.

---

Jaylen Brown? And Ivan Raab was a 2 and done.

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Brown and Rabb plus Jason Kidd, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Ryan Anderson and if he wasn't injured Leon Powe or if he had played better Bird... plus if they didn't go straight to the NBA Nowitski and maybe even Lebron...

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Anderson wasn't a high school All American or a five-star recruit. And even including all of them you're talking about 7 guys over a 28-year period who played a total of 15 years for Cal and managed one Sweet Sixteen appearance combined. Hardly a solid model for long-term success for the program.

mdbear said:

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socaltownie said:

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http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/badgers/wisconsin-coach-bo-ryan-builds-successful-teams-with-fundamentals-b99475347z1-298735691.html/

Yes. We should simply keep trying to hire guys until we find someone like Bo or Bennet. Bo was a D3 powerhouse who achieved everywhere he was before going to Wisky (paging University of Georgia). Bennet the younger was recommended by Dick Bennet who had gotten to a final four and understood what it took (paging Travis)

hmm......

Mike Williams....call on line 6.

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I am the originator of this post about being pleasantly surprised by Fox in his first year. I have degrees from both Cal and Virginia and follow both programs closely. I think it is fair to say that Fox is nowhere close to Tony Bennett, who is a rare find. Contrary to popular belief, Bennett usually does pretty well in recruiting talent. All three guys who left early for the NBA last year were top 100 players coming out of high school, and one was a McDonald's All-American. Virginia is suffering a little this year because Bennett slacked off in recruiting the past couple of years, but he has the 12th ranked class in the country coming in next year. My point is that even a strategic and motivational genius like Bennett needs to be able to recruit. My hope as I said in the original post is that Fox can recruit well enough so that Cal consistently is in the running for an NCAA tournament spot.

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If I'm recalling correctly, Bennett also took a WSU team that didn't have a single top-100 recruit to the Elite Eight.

No doubt that Tony Bennett struck gold with the 2016 class that included Hunter, Guy and Jerome, but in general I wouldn't say he's recruited a ton of highly recruited stars (in the traditional sense). He's looking for different qualities and skill sets than most coaches to play his style. He obviously recruits for defense which is not something most coaches do Bennet's process has allowed his teams to perform at a far higher level than the recruiting rankings.

Here are UVA's 247 class rankings:
2019: 23rd
2018: 65th
2017: 98th
2016: 7th
2015: 62nd
2014: 32nd
2013: 53rd
2012: 15th
2011: 39th

I'd put Jay Wright in a similar category of coaches looking for different things than simply who is ranked highest. Villanova won two titles in the 2010s without a single top 25 recruiting class as the basis for those teams.

bearister said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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I would have preferred that all three transfers had come back since they all added value in different ways. But McNeill was easily the most replaceable. He was basically a stand-up shooter and not much else. I always laughed at the idea that he fashioned himself as a point guard. Ideally, point guards need to do four things: create scoring for others, create scoring for yourself, get to the line and limit turnovers. McNeill was abysmal at all of those except for limiting turnovers. His assist rate was horrific. He couldn't create for himself (his assisted FG rate was extremely high) and his FTr was about 1/3 of what Austin's and Bradley's is. He's simply not a point guard. He's an average 3 point shooter when open and there's some value to that but on the whole, he didn't do much for me. We could use an average 3 point shooter this year so I wish he'd come back but his departure was not one I lost sleep over.

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He averaged 11 points a game on a team that had no coach and no plan. We could have used him off the bench. He played with too much humility. He could ball. Fox and Trent would have really helped him...and last, but not least, he didn't wear a f'ing headband, which was a really good look during game 16 of the losing streak. I remember how clownish it looked in 2003 when UCLA lost 12 conference games with Jason Kapono and his posse wearing headbands. Lack of commitment to excellence.




Seriously, you base your evaluation on a player by when or when not he decides to wear a headband? Give me a break on that one.
Also, Sueing was a good player, all left hand or not. Otherwise Ohio State wouldn't have opened up a spot for him.

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