SFCityBear said:
Cal88 said:
SFCityBear said:
UrsaMajor said:
This is true, and given the size of China and its lack of certain kinds of infrastructure, it may have been the best possible solution; however, it's worth noting that Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, and to an extent S. Korea have been able to bend the curve with less coercive methods.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned much is the likely permanent changes in US culture that will be a consequence of the virus. IMO, given the recommended "social isolation" measures, most brick and mortar stores (except for big box stores) are likely to go bankrupt. Once the crisis is over, I expect that the vast majority will not come back both because of needed capital and because I suspect most Americans will have been conditioned to do all purchasing online.
Remember, it took WWII to get us out of the Great Depression. Unless Trump or his successor have plans to invade someone major, we may be in for years of hard times.
I doubt that Trump has plans to invade anyone, major or minor, but the Pentagon probably has plenty such scenarios. I hope you are not suggesting that FDR had plans to get us into WWII. I thought we got in because Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor. Although I did have a history prof at Cal who taught us that FDR forced the issue by putting an embargo on all steel and oil exports to Japan, and since they had no steel or oil, they had to attack us. I never knew whether to believe FDR had an ulterior motive in this affair or not.
On this other subject, we are already invading many countries, including Iraq and Syria, where there has recently been military escalation with US bases being attacked and deadly retaliations against Iraqis:
https://www.npr.org/2020/03/14/815831184/rocket-attack-wounds-u-s-led-coalition-troops-iraqi-soldiers-in-base-near-baghda
The Iraqi parliament has already called for US/coalition forces to leave their country. At the very least there should be a clear cease fire order.
It's also really inhumane to impose full sanctions on Iran, which has been the country worst hit with covid19, this amounts to a war crime. At the very least all restrictions on food, medicines and health-related items should be lifted right away. Trump should also use this opportunity to reign in the neocons running his foreign policy and de-escalate the situation in the middle east.
The word "invade" as it was used by UrsaMajor, I believe, referred to one country invading another, as Hitler did in WWII in various European countries, or as Japan did in various Asian countries, for example. The primary definition of the word "invasion" in Webster's Dictionary is "an act of invading, especially an incursion of an army for conquest or plunder." The US forces stationed in Iraq and Syria have conquered nothing and no one, and have not plundered anything that I know of. We are not the British Army or the French Army invading the Middle East and plundering pyramids and palaces to bring home objects of art to place in the British Museum in London or the Louvre in Paris. We did attack Iraq several years ago at great cost of life, even if the reason was faulty, but we did not come back home with oil for plunder. Troops remain stationed there for the purpose of giving protection to a fledgling supposedly democratic government, in a faulty (in my mind) experiment in nation building, but we still are not demanding tribute from Iraq. We entered Syria initially, as I understand it, to prevent the Syrian government from slaughtering a large portion of its population, which Syria did at the behest of and with military help from Iran. Trump attempted to withdraw some troops, until it was realized that Syria's oil reserves could fall prey to Iran and Russia for their plunder, and he sent the troops back in to protect the oil. This was not an "invasion" by the US, because no conquest or plunder was attempted.
We should not change the definitions of words to exaggerate and make a point. "Invasion", 'inhumane", and "war crime" all have specific definitions. What is inhumane is the slaughter waged by Assad on a portion of his population, including using gas on human beings. What is inhumane and a war crime is Iran fomenting, supporting, and committing terror against other humans who hold different beliefs, or hold territory or riches they want to possess. Wounding people, maiming them, slaughtering them, executing them. The sanctions are in place to get them to stop this senseless killing. The sanctions are hard on the Iranian people, but what other way does the world have to stop this government gone mad? We could invade and end up with another Iraq, perhaps, and have to station troops in Iran to maintain the peace. It is better if the Iranians rise up and do this themselves. It will not solve the whole problem, as the world will still have to deal with ISIS and the Sunnis, but putting the citizens into power in Iran will go a long way towards stabilizing the Middle East, much more than anything we could do, in my opinion.
We are "taking the oil" in Syria, to quote Trump. To his credit, he is fairly transparent. We've been taking the oil from Iraq as well, which has been running as a colony.
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We did attack Iraq several years ago at great cost of life, even if the reason was faulty
Over a million Iraqi killed, and their country, one of the richest in the region, with a first world infrastructure including free healthcare, free college, had been reduced to ashes and divided, after a decade of crippling sanctions were utilities like water treatment plants were constantly targeted and bombed, war crimes resulting in the death from disease and poverty of millions of civilians,
including over a half million children. Cities like Basra and Fallujah have been covered with 1,000 tons of "depleted" uranium (with a half life over 50,000 years) from US bombing and are the site of unprecedented rates of cancers and genetic defects among the newborn:
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According to Iraqi government statistics, the rate of cancer in the country has skyrocketed from 40 per 100,000 people prior to the First Gulf War in 1991, to 800 per 100,000 in 1995, to at least 1,600 per 100,000 in 2005.
The culprit behind all of these health issues is depleted uranium, a byproduct of uranium enrichment. With a mass fraction a third of what fissile uranium would have, depleted uranium emits less alpha radiation up to 60 percent less than natural uranium, according to the U.S. Department of Defense. This "relative" safety offered a rationale for many nations particularly, the U.S. to put the waste material to use.
https://www.mintpressnews.com/depleted-uranium-iraq-wars-legacy-cancer/193338/Iraq is the cradle of civilization, much of its archeological artifacts were stolen under US occupation, however the loot went to private collections, as opposed to museums in Paris or London.
Iraq has been slowly rebuilding and its parliament has recently voted to expel all US/NATO troops, to which the US government response was "we'll sanction you". This is the definition of occupation.
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We entered Syria initially, as I understand it, to prevent the Syrian government from slaughtering a large portion of its population, which Syria did at the behest of and with military help from Iran.
Even if that narrative were true (it isn't, but don't want to go into detail about this on this thread at this time), no one really gives a crap about Arab lives, otherwise we would have stopped arming and coordinating the ongoing Saudi genocide in Yemen. Saudi Arabia is pretty much a puppet regime, MbS wouldn't last two weeks without US military backing.
