Bearprof said:

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sluggo said:

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Other than the on ball screens set at poor angles, I have no idea what Cal is trying to do on offense. They play offense like a bunch of guys who have never met each other. Awful coaching. At Georgia Fox had bad offenses, so this is no surprise. So frustrating to watch.

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I thought that Betley and Foreman did not get many good looks. Can blame it on the poor offensive scheme, or on the Cougar defense. I say it was a combination.

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I actually saw close to 10 wide open looks overall as a team that we did not make. We make half of them we are not only in the game, we might have won. I wasn't too impressed with Wazzu. We have Matt and Grant both at full strength we win as well.

MoragaBear said:

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Personally, I think Fox's teams get a higher quantity of open looks we've seen since Monty, especially when at full strength when the the D's have to account for both Bradley and Anticevich.

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I agree, but Monty was followed by two of the worst technical coaches ever, so that should not be the standard.

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Now the recruiting can be better, for sure.

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An optimist could say Fox's recruiting just got off to a slow start. The international players and grad transfers were needed just to put a team on the court. Bowser, Celestine, and the 2021 recruits might all end up looking pretty good.

stu said:

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Quote:

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Now the recruiting can be better, for sure.

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An optimist could say Fox's recruiting just got off to a slow start. The international players and grad transfers were needed just to put a team on the court. Bowser, Celestine, and the 2021 recruits might all end up looking pretty good.

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I likewhat I've seen from both Bowser and Celestine, especially if Celestine can shoot the 3. Bowser has a lot of athleticism. Both have length.

I'm excited to see the 3 new guys next year and how that changes things. And I'm really hoping we can land the PG from Orinda/Moraga. He seems really good.

MoragaBear said:

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sluggo said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Personally, I think Fox's teams get a higher quantity of open looks we've seen since Monty, especially when at full strength when the the D's have to account for both Bradley and Anticevich.

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I agree, but Monty was followed by two of the worst technical coaches ever, so that should not be the standard.

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I actually think they get better looks than some of Monty's teams did, especially considering Monty's teams had a lot more scoring threats defenses had to account for.

Monty also has a lot of respect for Fox's coaching. Just listen to him on his broadcasts. He doesn't give out empty plaudits.

Now the recruiting can be better, for sure.

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Post Jay John, the Monty offenses were not that great to the eye. I have not compared stats.

Coaches say nice things about coaches. I am convinced that Fox is a bad offensive coach, which is confirmed by his many years at Georgia. It is not just the recruiting.

KoreAmBear said:

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Thieman dunking more I love it. Needs to turn into the Thiemanator a la the Thurmanator.

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The Thiemanator. I like it.

SFCityBear said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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Thieman dunking more I love it. Needs to turn into the Thiemanator a la the Thurmanator.

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The Thiemanator. I like it.

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Yeah, pretty good! The 2021 Thiemannator seems a lot more "active" (for lack of a better word) than the earlier version. I mean, he's right there in the thick of things lately, if that makes any sense. Then there was that dunk last night and some made free throws... Let's hope he gets better to the point where we can legitimately call him by his new nickname!

Defense still bad but yeah he is going to the basket with authority. One game he and Kelly miss a ton of foul shots the next game they make a lot. You never know.

The three teams we can beat have already beaten us, osu twice.washington may be it.without Bradley, it will probably be a tall order but they have only one win.

Bear8995 said:

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stu said:

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Quote:

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Now the recruiting can be better, for sure.

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An optimist could say Fox's recruiting just got off to a slow start. The international players and grad transfers were needed just to put a team on the court. Bowser, Celestine, and the 2021 recruits might all end up looking pretty good.

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I likewhat I've seen from both Bowser and Celestine, especially if Celestine can shoot the 3. Bowser has a lot of athleticism. Both have length.

I'm excited to see the 3 new guys next year and how that changes things. And I'm really hoping we can land the PG from Orinda/Moraga. He seems really good.

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Bowser and Celestine definitely have good length
That hopefully translate to a better overall defense and maybe being able to get their shot off easier

tequila4kapp said:

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That tells you nearly everything. If you shoot that well and lose it is defense and turnovers.

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Not true in this one game. Cal had only 7 turnovers in this game, very good for this team. The only game where Cal had fewer turnovers was the USF game, where we had only 6. Cal averages 14 turnovers per game. The worst culprits in the rotation on a turnovers per 40 minute basis are Thorpe 4.2, Bradley 4.1, Lars 3.8, and Brown 3.3.

HoopDreams said:

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Lars been practicing his FTs!

Grant is back and hits his first shot!

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You are right about Lars. I think he practiced them al lot over the summer, because he has only had one bad game at OSU where he went 3/11. Take that one game away, and he has made 13/18 for the rest of the games, which is 72%. Whoever is instructing him should work with Kelly. Clearly having some issues. Mostly mental, I'd wager.

Hi Folks, This comment is for Sluggo. I have two friends who moved here fairly recently from Georgia and they followed Fox's teams there. They do not agree with your assessment of Fox's ability to coach offense rather they feel that his staff was the problem at Georgia as they were not able to recruit enough talent to compete with a lot of teams in the SEC. I think that the staff Fox has right now at Cal will turn out to be superior to the his staff at Georgia and I think that are already headed in a positive direction. Given the current talent on the Cal team especially with Bradley out, they are still generating a lot of open shots in most games and shooting an OK percentage except for 3's. I believer that their turnovers, free throw shooting, and rebounding are far greater problems than Fox's ability to coach offense. I do appreciate that you don't call Fox a retread even though you don't feel he can coach offense because it irritates me when folks refer to a decent coach like Fox as a retread.

BeachedBear said:

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sluggo said:

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Other than the on ball screens set at poor angles, I have no idea what Cal is trying to do on offense. They play offense like a bunch of guys who have never met each other. Awful coaching. At Georgia Fox had bad offenses, so this is no surprise. So frustrating to watch.

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From observation, they appear to be mixing up 4 out and 3 out offenses, with a mix of in-n-out vs perimeter ball movement. From a coaching perspective, I think this is a good strategy with the matchups we've seen. They also appear to be maximizing transition opportunities.

However, what 'appears' and how it is executed has a lot to be desired. Too many turnovers, insufficient rebounding, mediocre shooting (I don't think shooting is their biggest problem at this stage - but its not great), poor passing and, as you noted weak screens. The passing is probably the biggest challenge at this stage of the season and is exacerbated by lineup changes due to injuries. A couple great examples are Lars and Betley. When Lars gets passes near his face and doesn't drop it, (because he wasn't ready) he looks pretty good. Similarly, when Betley gets a pass near his shins two feet to his right, when he is covered - makes him look bad. he's a spot up shooter. He needs the ball in his chest when he's open to maximize his quicker release.

I think the staff needs to focus on more of the execution than the design. But yeah - its on the staff and if this was happening at Georgia - probably means it is less likely to improve.

Braun's team had decent execution, but poor design IMHO. Cuonzo had mediocre execution and weak design (on offense) IMHO. Jones had poor design and poor execution (in everyone's opinion, it seems).

Monty had good design and close to great execution. I think that is because he adjusted his scheme and shot selection to suit his individual players assets (in particular Kamp, Boykin, Thurman and Sanders-Frison, but also Crabbe and Theo and Christopher on the perimeter). Dissecting it a little more compare Boykin vs Thurman and how Monty maximized their 8 foot game. Boykin was able to shoot with movement, but not contact - so Monty had him work a little curl or back screen above the post to great effect. Thurman, on the other hand shot better with contact, so the other post player would NOT back screen, but look for sneak pass and layup. That seems like an easy thing to duplicate, but few coaches can do that. I have heard other top coaches point out that Monty's methodology was actually a weakness come tourney time as his teams were very 'scoutable' - but wouldn't we love to have that problem!?!

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Thank you for some substance! I agree that the staff needs to focus on execution. I agree with your summaries of previous coaches. I think Monty's problem in the tournament was that his teams were over-seeded because they overachieved during the regular season. After a long, grueling season, the tournament favors teams that still have legs, that is, the teams with the best athletes, and Monty rarely had them.

I re-watched the first half of the game against WSU to see what Cal was doing and to see whether I was full of it. You mention the sets that Cal uses, but when I say I don't know what they are doing, it means I don't know where they think the shots are going to come from if it works. Like with the Braun offense they tried to overload a side and get a ball reversal so the post could pin their defender and thus be easily fed and also single teamed. It was beyond weak, but I knew what I was seeing. Upon a second viewing I still don't know what Cal is trying to do.

Offense is based on spacing, movement and screening. I would give Cal an A on spacing. This leads to open driving lanes, which Brown took advantage of (he had a great half) and Bradley usually does, and open 3 point shots. Too many of those shots were from NBA range, but on the other hand, the farther players are out, the better the spacing.

I would give Cal a C on movement. There is a lot of movement. But it is not very productive movement and it never includes backdoor cutting. Cutting is alway towards the ball or towards the three point line. Kelly nicely ducked in a couple times from the baseline, and with the good spacing, it led to two short shots, one of which he made. Now he could fake the duck in and go back door for a lob, but that would be on another team.

Cal definitely deserves an F on screening, but that is only because I don't give lower than an F. I counted 4 off ball screens. Two by Grant A., one by KK, and one by Lars T. Lars T. set a beautiful screen on the foul line extended to free Betley for a successful 3 on the first play of the game. Such a nice play was never repeated, so I am going to guess this sequence was drawn up before the game started. There were lots of on ball screens, but either the screener was out of place or the dribbler did not set up the screener properly. This is pure coaching. Kelly is a good player, but he is a particularly bad screener. When he is off the ball he does this thing where he fakes like he is going to screen but never follows through. He is also the worst on ball screener among the bigs. At least Lars T. tries here.

Cal's offense seems to be read and react. I would like something more patterned. I think it would be easier on the players, many of whom do not have great basketball instincts. Brown stands out because he has amazing instincts, he is a poor man's Rajon Rondo, but he can't follow through on what he can see because his skills are poor. I doubt he will ever be able to shoot from distance, but if he could finish from within 5 feet, it would be very helpful.

Cal needs a talent upgrade, but they are never going to have the players to be very good with such poor execution. This weak execution is just like last year, and it will be the same next year. It is coaching.

tthompson993 said:

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Hi Folks, This comment is for Sluggo. I have two friends who moved here fairly recently from Georgia and they followed Fox's teams there. They do not agree with your assessment of Fox's ability to coach offense rather they feel that his staff was the problem at Georgia as they were not able to recruit enough talent to compete with a lot of teams in the SEC. I think that the staff Fox has right now at Cal will turn out to be superior to the his staff at Georgia and I think that are already headed in a positive direction. Given the current talent on the Cal team especially with Bradley out, they are still generating a lot of open shots in most games and shooting an OK percentage except for 3's. I believer that their turnovers, free throw shooting, and rebounding are far greater problems than Fox's ability to coach offense. I do appreciate that you don't call Fox a retread even though you don't feel he can coach offense because it irritates me when folks refer to a decent coach like Fox as a retread.

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I never watched a Georgia game while he was there, but his team's offensive efficiency was documented to be low and 9 years is not a small sample size. Given that and what I have seen while he is here, I am confident in my statement.

sluggo said:

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BeachedBear said:

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sluggo said:

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Other than the on ball screens set at poor angles, I have no idea what Cal is trying to do on offense. They play offense like a bunch of guys who have never met each other. Awful coaching. At Georgia Fox had bad offenses, so this is no surprise. So frustrating to watch.

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From observation, they appear to be mixing up 4 out and 3 out offenses, with a mix of in-n-out vs perimeter ball movement. From a coaching perspective, I think this is a good strategy with the matchups we've seen. They also appear to be maximizing transition opportunities.

However, what 'appears' and how it is executed has a lot to be desired. Too many turnovers, insufficient rebounding, mediocre shooting (I don't think shooting is their biggest problem at this stage - but its not great), poor passing and, as you noted weak screens. The passing is probably the biggest challenge at this stage of the season and is exacerbated by lineup changes due to injuries. A couple great examples are Lars and Betley. When Lars gets passes near his face and doesn't drop it, (because he wasn't ready) he looks pretty good. Similarly, when Betley gets a pass near his shins two feet to his right, when he is covered - makes him look bad. he's a spot up shooter. He needs the ball in his chest when he's open to maximize his quicker release.

I think the staff needs to focus on more of the execution than the design. But yeah - its on the staff and if this was happening at Georgia - probably means it is less likely to improve.

Braun's team had decent execution, but poor design IMHO. Cuonzo had mediocre execution and weak design (on offense) IMHO. Jones had poor design and poor execution (in everyone's opinion, it seems).

Monty had good design and close to great execution. I think that is because he adjusted his scheme and shot selection to suit his individual players assets (in particular Kamp, Boykin, Thurman and Sanders-Frison, but also Crabbe and Theo and Christopher on the perimeter). Dissecting it a little more compare Boykin vs Thurman and how Monty maximized their 8 foot game. Boykin was able to shoot with movement, but not contact - so Monty had him work a little curl or back screen above the post to great effect. Thurman, on the other hand shot better with contact, so the other post player would NOT back screen, but look for sneak pass and layup. That seems like an easy thing to duplicate, but few coaches can do that. I have heard other top coaches point out that Monty's methodology was actually a weakness come tourney time as his teams were very 'scoutable' - but wouldn't we love to have that problem!?!

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Thank you for some substance! I agree that the staff needs to focus on execution. I agree with your summaries of previous coaches. I think Monty's problem in the tournament was that his teams were over-seeded because they overachieved during the regular season. After a long, grueling season, the tournament favors teams that still have legs, that is, the teams with the best athletes, and Monty rarely had them.

I re-watched the first half of the game against WSU to see what Cal was doing and to see whether I was full of it. You mention the sets that Cal uses, but when I say I don't know what they are doing, it means I don't know where they think the shots are going to come from if it works. Like with the Braun offense they tried to overload a side and get a ball reversal so the post could pin their defender and thus be easily fed and also single teamed. It was beyond weak, but I knew what I was seeing. Upon a second viewing I still don't know what Cal is trying to do.

Offense is based on spacing, movement and screening. I would give Cal an A on spacing. This leads to open driving lanes, which Brown took advantage of (he had a great half) and Bradley usually does, and open 3 point shots. Too many of those shots were from NBA range, but on the other hand, the farther players are out, the better the spacing.

I would give Cal a C on movement. There is a lot of movement. But it is not very productive movement and it never includes backdoor cutting. Cutting is alway towards the ball or towards the three point line. Kelly nicely ducked in a couple times from the baseline, and with the good spacing, it led to two short shots, one of which he made. Now he could fake the duck in and go back door for a lob, but that would be on another team.

Cal definitely deserves an F on screening, but that is only because I don't give lower than an F. I counted 4 off ball screens. Two by Grant A., one by KK, and one by Lars T. Lars T. set a beautiful screen on the foul line extended to free Betley for a successful 3 on the first play of the game. Such a nice play was never repeated, so I am going to guess this sequence was drawn up before the game started. There were lots of on ball screens, but either the screener was out of place or the dribbler did not set up the screener properly. This is pure coaching. Kelly is a good player, but he is a particularly bad screener. When he is off the ball he does this thing where he fakes like he is going to screen but never follows through. He is also the worst on ball screener among the bigs. At least Lars T. tries here.

Cal's offense seems to be read and react. I would like something more patterned. I think it would be easier on the players, many of whom do not have great basketball instincts. Brown stands out because he has amazing instincts, he is a poor man's Rajon Rondo, but he can't follow through on what he can see because his skills are poor. I doubt he will ever be able to shoot from distance, but if he could finish from within 5 feet, it would be very helpful.

Cal needs a talent upgrade, but they are never going to have the players to be very good with such poor execution. This weak execution is just like last year, and it will be the same next year. It is coaching.

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Good stuff - good detail. I think your point about motion(read and react) vs pattern offenses is valid - but I think almost every player these days comes from a motion background and when a coach attempts to impart a pattern offense - it can be ugly - but that's just my guess - I've been out of youth coaching for too long to know what's going on these days. But I had many, many discussions with Bennet, Campy and Braun about this very point back in the day.

Big C said:

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Sign of the times: I knew about the game, but I missed the first third because I forgot. Does that say more about me, or about Cal Basketball? Selfishly, I'm hoping it's the latter. Anyway, nice to see Ant back. Hope we can pick up a "W"!

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Heh, I forgot about the game too until I saw this thread title Friday morning. Unfortunately, I have the games set to auto-record...and stoooopidly watched it.