OaktownBear said:

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calbear93 said:

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OaktownGrinch said:

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sycasey said:

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OaktownGrinch said:

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Having a trial for someone who is already out of office and that wouldn't prevent him from running again even if convicted (which has no chance of happening).

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This is factually wrong. There is a mechanism for preventing Trump from running again if he were to be convicted.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-impeachment-explainer/explainer-can-lawmakers-use-impeachment-to-bar-trump-from-holding-office-again-idUSKBN29H1A8

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https://abc7.com/can-an-impeached-president-win-a-second-term-in-2024-if-trump-resigns-he-run-again-25th-amendment-was/9568187/

Quote:

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Even a Senate vote to remove Trump would not prohibit him from running in 2024; for the Senate to ban him from the presidency, it would have to hold an additional vote on this question.

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That is right, but, unlike impeachment, it only requires a majority and not a 2/3 vote. Doubt someone is getting impeached but a simple majority cannot agree to disqualify for future office.

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His claim was the equivalent of calling someone wrong for saying a team down 7 could tie with a touchdown because you need the extra point

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Yes, I see your point. In the highly unlikely situation where there are 17 Republican senators willing to vote to impeach, they are doing that not to remove a person who is no longer in the office. They are doing that so that can remove Trumpism from their party. If so, how would it make sense for 17 Republicans all to vote to impeach a former president but decide they plus at least one additional Democrat just cannot disqualify him from running again and diving the party.

Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

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Manchin and Sinema won't vote for a bill in which the Parliamentarian is overruled

Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

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Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

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This has nothing to do with Mitch McConnell. It has everything to do with a couple of lousy Democratic Senators in an unrepresentative legislature.

sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

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Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

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The real truth is that the Dems don't have enough votes within their own party for a $15 minimum wage.

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Which is an example of why the Senate should be abolished. The American people strongly support a $15 minimum wage.

Anarchistbear said:

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dajo9 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

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Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

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This has nothing to do with Mitch McConnell. It has everything to do with a couple of lousy Democratic Senators in an unrepresentative legislature.

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That's even worse. But that's what power is for- and what Presidents like FDR and LBJ understood. The Republican leadership wouldn't allow this. If he doesn't use his power they will lose big in two years and the party will split. What is the country supposed to believe? He's going to fight for Neena F$kin Tanden but not this.

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Republicans don't rely on Senators in blue states. They don't have to. And what legislation did they pass anyway, other than the obvious tax cuts for the rich. The undemocratic Senate is tilted in their direction.

This has nothing to do with Biden or McConnell. It's about a Constitution that is a failure for the 21st century and a couple of Democratic Senators only worried about their internal state politics.

The biggest ally American fascists have is the futility of the Senate to do anything for the American people. We need to fix this or we are going to lose our country.

EDIT - Also, FDR and LBJ? Really? Their Congressional majorities were massive.

dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

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Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

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The real truth is that the Dems don't have enough votes within their own party for a $15 minimum wage.

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Which is an example of why the Senate should be abolished. The American people strongly support a $15 minimum wage.

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This is actually a case where I am divided.

Any state that wants a certain minimum wage can do so.

If a few states want to screw their own citizens then so be it. They should pay for it at the polls.

dimitrig said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

---

---

Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

---

The real truth is that the Dems don't have enough votes within their own party for a $15 minimum wage.

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Which is an example of why the Senate should be abolished. The American people strongly support a $15 minimum wage.

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This is actually a case where I am divided.

Any state that wants a certain minimum wage can do so.

If a few states want to screw their own citizens then so be it. They should pay for it at the polls.

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Then businesses will race to the bottom wage states and everybody gets screwed.

SFBear92 said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

---

---

Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

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The real truth is that the Dems don't have enough votes within their own party for a $15 minimum wage.

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The real truth is that the Dems don't want to increase the minimum wage. They want to look as though they want to raise the minimum wage, but just can't.

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Where is the eye roll emoji?

SFBear92 said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

---

---

Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

---

The real truth is that the Dems don't have enough votes within their own party for a $15 minimum wage.

---

The real truth is that the Dems don't want to increase the minimum wage. They want to look as though they want to raise the minimum wage, but just can't.

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Well, clearly some of them don't want to raise it, that's why they don't have 50 votes.

dajo9 said:

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BearForce2 said:

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More Jim Crow from southern Republicans.

Warnock was on the Board of Stacey Abrams voter registration organization. Some registrations were submitted after the arbitrary 10 day deadline. So what do state Republicans do? Investigate the black Senator.

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Did Jim Crow tell Warnock to run over his wife?
Warnock is a nut, listen to his own wife.

SFBear92 said:

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sycasey said:

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SFBear92 said:

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sycasey said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

---

---

Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

---

The real truth is that the Dems don't have enough votes within their own party for a $15 minimum wage.

---

The real truth is that the Dems don't want to increase the minimum wage. They want to look as though they want to raise the minimum wage, but just can't.

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Well, clearly some of them don't want to raise it, that's why they don't have 50 votes.

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Funny how the Democrats always manage to have that one (or in this case two) fall guy(s) that they can use as an excuse for why they can't do anything when they control the government.

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Can't do anything? I think a relief package is still going to happen. It just appears the minimum wage increase is probably out.

SFBear92 said:

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Funny how the Democrats always manage to have that one (or in this case two) fall guy(s) that they can use as an excuse for why they can't do anything when they control the government.

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You mean like when the GOP threw McCain under the bus because he didn't want millions of Americans to lose healthcare?

Anarchistbear said:

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dajo9 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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dajo9 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

---

---

Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

---

This has nothing to do with Mitch McConnell. It has everything to do with a couple of lousy Democratic Senators in an unrepresentative legislature.

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That's even worse. But that's what power is for- and what Presidents like FDR and LBJ understood. The Republican leadership wouldn't allow this. If he doesn't use his power they will lose big in two years and the party will split. What is the country supposed to believe? He's going to fight for Neena F$kin Tanden but not this.

---

Republicans don't rely on Senators in blue states. They don't have to. And what legislation did they pass anyway, other than the obvious tax cuts for the rich. The undemocratic Senate is tilted in their direction.

This has nothing to do with Biden or McConnell. It's about a Constitution that is a failure for the 21st century and a couple of Democratic Senators only worried about their internal state politics.

The biggest ally American fascists have is the futility of the Senate to do anything for the American people. We need to fix this or we are going to lose our country.

EDIT - Also, FDR and LBJ? Really? Their Congressional majorities were massive.

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Nonsense. It's about the Democrats passing legislation they ran on, that is popular across geographical and party lines and being unwilling to even challenge some bull**** parliamentarian. And you're suggesting instead they should abolish the Constitution because Biden doesn't want to offend Joe Manchin?

And yes LBJ. Sure he had majority but most were Southern segregationists. It was the hardest sell in American history

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What are you talking about "offend Joe Manchin". Biden needs Manchin for any legislation. Biden has no power over Manchin. Biden lost West Virginia by 39 points.

Hope Never Dies said:

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dimitrig said:

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SFBear92 said:

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Funny how the Democrats always manage to have that one (or in this case two) fall guy(s) that they can use as an excuse for why they can't do anything when they control the government.

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You mean like when the GOP threw McCain under the bus because he didn't want millions of Americans to lose healthcare?

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The GOP may have been furious, but could they primary McCain? Nope.

And the Democrats won't spend any political capital on primarying Sinema or Manchin either because they actually don't want this legislation the same way they didn't want single payer health care. They want you to think that they really wanted to do that, but darn it, those conservative Democrats and Republicans.

That's why Nancy Pelosi wants a strong Republican Party. Because without one, she'd have no excuse for why she's never passed anything of note in her entire speakership.

Loyal Democratic Party voters are rubes.

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Sinema will be primaried. With Manchin there is no point. The progressive who ran for West Virginia Senate in 2020 lost by 43 points.

Anarchistbear said:

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Hope Never Dies said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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dajo9 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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dajo9 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

---

---

Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

---

This has nothing to do with Mitch McConnell. It has everything to do with a couple of lousy Democratic Senators in an unrepresentative legislature.

---

That's even worse. But that's what power is for- and what Presidents like FDR and LBJ understood. The Republican leadership wouldn't allow this. If he doesn't use his power they will lose big in two years and the party will split. What is the country supposed to believe? He's going to fight for Neena F$kin Tanden but not this.

---

Republicans don't rely on Senators in blue states. They don't have to. And what legislation did they pass anyway, other than the obvious tax cuts for the rich. The undemocratic Senate is tilted in their direction.

This has nothing to do with Biden or McConnell. It's about a Constitution that is a failure for the 21st century and a couple of Democratic Senators only worried about their internal state politics.

The biggest ally American fascists have is the futility of the Senate to do anything for the American people. We need to fix this or we are going to lose our country.

EDIT - Also, FDR and LBJ? Really? Their Congressional majorities were massive.

---

Nonsense. It's about the Democrats passing legislation they ran on, that is popular across geographical and party lines and being unwilling to even challenge some bull**** parliamentarian. And you're suggesting instead they should abolish the Constitution because Biden doesn't want to offend Joe Manchin?

And yes LBJ. Sure he had majority but most were Southern segregationists. It was the hardest sell in American history

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If the Democrats cared- which I agree, they don't- they wouldn't use a parlor trick as an excuse. They would work around the Parliamentarian- who elected her? and they would force a vote. Biden would go on National TV use the bully pulpit and argue that this is the most essential reform of our time and rally all citizens to call their representatives while puttting inordinate political pressure on Sinsema and Manchin threatening their political futures. If they lost they could still go before the people and say they mounted an effort and show who opposed it. Blaming it on the parliamentarian is just political cowardice

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You and Yogi would love this strategy because it would be a disaster for the Democrats. Not only would it not accomplish anything in terms of the minimum wage it would also mean disaster for the $1.9 trillion Covid relief bill, which is actually a very good piece of legislation for the American people that will be delivered with zero Republican votes. You would love for Biden and Democrats to fumble that opportunity and that is what your "suggestion" would do.

Again, the idea of Biden threatening Manchin's political future is hilarious. The more Manchin goes against Biden the stronger his political future is.

Sinema's situation is different. She has positioned herself as a Democrat in a red state, but her state is turning blue. She will go down as the failed one-term bisexual Senator who blocked LGBTQ rights out of loyalty to the filibuster. The Dixiecrats are laughing in their graves.

dajo9 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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Hope Never Dies said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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dajo9 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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dajo9 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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SFBear92 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Bernie Sanders
"Because of the archaic and undemocratic rules of the Senate"

60% of the American people support a $15 minimum wage but we can't get it passed by the undemocratic Senate.

---

---

Biden can be a transformative President or not piss off Mitch McConnell. Sadly, I bet the latter

---

This has nothing to do with Mitch McConnell. It has everything to do with a couple of lousy Democratic Senators in an unrepresentative legislature.

---

That's even worse. But that's what power is for- and what Presidents like FDR and LBJ understood. The Republican leadership wouldn't allow this. If he doesn't use his power they will lose big in two years and the party will split. What is the country supposed to believe? He's going to fight for Neena F$kin Tanden but not this.

---

Republicans don't rely on Senators in blue states. They don't have to. And what legislation did they pass anyway, other than the obvious tax cuts for the rich. The undemocratic Senate is tilted in their direction.

This has nothing to do with Biden or McConnell. It's about a Constitution that is a failure for the 21st century and a couple of Democratic Senators only worried about their internal state politics.

The biggest ally American fascists have is the futility of the Senate to do anything for the American people. We need to fix this or we are going to lose our country.

EDIT - Also, FDR and LBJ? Really? Their Congressional majorities were massive.

---

Nonsense. It's about the Democrats passing legislation they ran on, that is popular across geographical and party lines and being unwilling to even challenge some bull**** parliamentarian. And you're suggesting instead they should abolish the Constitution because Biden doesn't want to offend Joe Manchin?

And yes LBJ. Sure he had majority but most were Southern segregationists. It was the hardest sell in American history

---

---

If the Democrats cared- which I agree, they don't- they wouldn't use a parlor trick as an excuse. They would work around the Parliamentarian- who elected her? and they would force a vote. Biden would go on National TV use the bully pulpit and argue that this is the most essential reform of our time and rally all citizens to call their representatives while puttting inordinate political pressure on Sinsema and Manchin threatening their political futures. If they lost they could still go before the people and say they mounted an effort and show who opposed it. Blaming it on the parliamentarian is just political cowardice

---

You and Yogi would love this strategy because it would be a disaster for the Democrats. Not only would it not accomplish anything in terms of the minimum wage it would also mean disaster for the $1.9 trillion Covid relief bill, which is actually a very good piece of legislation for the American people that will be delivered with zero Republican votes. You would love for Biden and Democrats to fumble that opportunity and that is what your "suggestion" would do.

Again, the idea of Biden threatening Manchin's political future is hilarious. The more Manchin goes against Biden the stronger his political future is.

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The same people who chided liberals for thinking that Trump was some kind of authoritarian are now basically arguing that Biden should act like an authoritarian. I find these rudimentary political arguments highly amusing.

Fighting as if you care about the legislation you're purportedly supporting is authoritarianism?

That's some bull**** right there.

SFBear92 said:

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Fighting as if you care about the legislation you're purportedly supporting is authoritarianism?

That's some bull**** right there.

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Changing the rules so you can get your own way is not authoritarianism?

That's some bullshyte right there.

SFBear92 said:

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Fighting as if you care about the legislation you're purportedly supporting is authoritarianism?

That's some bull**** right there.

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Fighting in such a way that will not actually change the mind of the person you need to support it (Joe Manchin) means you'll only get there via an authoritarian method (changing the rules or strongarming him). Manchin is not going to be moved by "bully pulpit" arguments from a President who is unpopular in his state, but you guys seem to think this will be a magic bullet that gets the 50th vote somehow.

Is there any truth to the rumor that if anarchistbear utters the word "Manchin" he will turn to dust and crumble to the ground?

Anarchistbear said:

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The rules are just an excuse. The rules have a work around. The presiding officer can ignore them as has been done in the past.

And the authoritarianism on display here is the leadership. The minimum wage is a crucial plank of the party; the minimum wage was a major reason they won in Georgia. So now the leadership ignores their campaign, their voters the country and the majority of minority voters who would benefit from this because of some parliamentary opinion by an unelected official. It's the authoritarianism and cowardice of the Democrats who ignore the will of the people and sacrifice this issue because they don't really care about it enough to take a stand

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You can work around the parliamentarian but then you still have Manchin voting no. So what have you accomplished then?