Vaccine Redux - Vax up and go to Class

144,109 Views | 2639 Replies | Last: 15 hrs ago by oski003
Unit2Sucks
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Lol that's a long winded way of saying you didn't read the study.

To be fair, we also learned you are an anti-masker. Can't say I'm surprised.
BearForce2
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Unit2Sucks said:

Lol that's a long winded way of saying you didn't read the study.

To be fair, we also learned you are an anti-masker. Can't say I'm surprised.

No one cares.
The OT forum is a left wing bubble consisting mainly of delusional lefties who spread disinformation. Their favorite topic? Donald J. Trump. Their least favorite topic? The current president, Joe Biden.
Big Dog
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Cal89 said:

I read that Harvard and other universities are requiring proof of vaccination this Fall to live on campus. It seems they have approved not just the vaccines discussed here, but China's Sinopharm. If true, that's concerning, based upon much of the data provided on Sinopharm, even in today's in NYT's article (Seychelles).

Others heard the same? If so, I find that acceptance damaging to the end sought...
That is correct. H is accepting all vaccines approved by WHO under a EUA.

https://www.harvard.edu/president/news/2021/covid-19-updates-and-vaccination-at-harvard/

Big Dog
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Cal89 said:

I read that Harvard and other universities are requiring proof of vaccination this Fall to live on campus. It seems they have approved not just the vaccines discussed here, but China's Sinopharm. If true, that's concerning, based upon much of the data provided on Sinopharm, even in today's in NYT's article (Seychelles).

Others heard the same? If so, I find that acceptance damaging to the end sought...
Except Pediatricians and the American Academy of Peds don't know squat about LONG-TERM effects of this vax on growing/maturing bodies & nervous systems. The fact is, we have less than one year of 'long'-term data on adults for this vax and not many weeks for teenagers.....

I'm glad my kids are grown, otherwise I would definitely fall into the reluctant category as a parent. (Strong supporter of vaccines: with a PH degree from Cal and another one from Hopkins, I jumped at the first appt of a vax for me and da' wife, adn spent days trying to get vax appointments for the grandparents but would think twice about teens......)

oski003
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They are starting to track myocarditis caused by mrna vaccinations. This appears to be more prominent in the young and healthy.

"PORTLAND, OR (KPTV) - Health providers across the region are being asked to keep an eye out for heart inflammation in patients who have gotten the COVID-19 vaccine. While the CDC has not established a link between the vaccine and the inflammation, health leaders are tracking data to see if there could be a link in some cases.

According to the OHA there are six people being monitored in Oregon and Washington for a condition called myocarditis or inflammation of the heart muscles with symptoms coming on shortly after getting the vaccine. That's six out of the millions of people who have gotten their vaccines already in both states. Local and national health experts are asking doctors to report these cases so they can learn more."

https://www.kptv.com/news/health-providers-asked-to-track-heart-inflammation-cases-in-vaccinated-patients/article_ceeb68bc-bab9-11eb-a712-f38bb88d5104.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
oski003
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/22/health/cdc-heart-teens-vaccination.html

CDC is now investigating post vaccination heart problems in teens.

The agency is reviewing several dozen reports that teenagers and young adults may have developed myocarditis after vaccination, officials said. But the agency has not determined whether the vaccine caused the condition.

The cases seem to have occurred predominantly in adolescents and young adults about four days after their second dose of one of the mRNA vaccines, which are Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech. And the cases were more common in males than in females.

"We look forward to seeing more data about these cases, so we can better understand if they are related to the vaccine or if they are coincidental," said Dr. Yvonne Maldonado, chair of the American Academy of Pediatrics's Committee on Infectious Diseases. "Meanwhile, it's important for pediatricians and other clinicians to report any health concerns that arise after vaccination."

Experts emphasized that the potentially rare side effect of myocarditis paled in comparison to the potential risks of Covid, including the persistent syndrome called "long Covid." Acute Covid itself can cause myocarditis.

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C.D.C. Is Investigating a Heart Problem in a Few Young Vaccine Recipients
The agency is reviewing several dozen reports that teenagers and young adults may have developed myocarditis after vaccination, officials said. But the agency has not determined whether the vaccine caused the condition.


A teenager in Nashville received a first dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine earlier this month.
A teenager in Nashville received a first dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine earlier this month. Credit...Brett Carlsen for The New York Times
Apoorva Mandavilli
By Apoorva Mandavilli
May 22, 2021, 6:15 p.m. ET
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is looking into reports that a very small number of teenagers and young adults vaccinated against the coronavirus may have experienced heart problems, according to the agency's vaccine safety group.

The group's statement was sparse in details, saying only that there were "relatively few" cases and that they may be entirely unrelated to vaccination. The condition, called myocarditis, is an inflammation of the heart muscle, and can occur following certain infections.

The C.D.C.'s review of the reports is in the early stages, and the agency has yet to determine whether there is any evidence that the vaccines caused the heart condition. It has posted some guidance on its website for doctors and clinicians to be alert to unusual heart symptoms among young people who had just received their shots.

"It may simply be a coincidence that some people are developing myocarditis after vaccination," said Dr. Celine Gounder, an infectious disease specialist at Bellevue Hospital Center in New York. "It's more likely for something like that to happen by chance, because so many people are getting vaccinated right now."

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The cases seem to have occurred predominantly in adolescents and young adults about four days after their second dose of one of the mRNA vaccines, which are Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech. And the cases were more common in males than in females.

"Most cases appear to be mild, and follow-up of cases is ongoing," the vaccine safety group said. The C.D.C. strongly recommends Covid vaccines for Americans ages 12 and older.

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"We look forward to seeing more data about these cases, so we can better understand if they are related to the vaccine or if they are coincidental," said Dr. Yvonne Maldonado, chair of the American Academy of Pediatrics's Committee on Infectious Diseases. "Meanwhile, it's important for pediatricians and other clinicians to report any health concerns that arise after vaccination."

Experts emphasized that the potentially rare side effect of myocarditis paled in comparison to the potential risks of Covid, including the persistent syndrome called "long Covid." Acute Covid itself can cause myocarditis.

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As of May 13, the coronavirus has infected more than 3.9 million children and sent more than 16,000 to hospitals, more than are hospitalized for flu in an average year, according to data collected by the A.A.P. About 300 children have died of Covid-19 in the United States, making it one of the top 10 causes of death in children since the pandemic began.

"And that's in the context of all the mitigation measures taken," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston.

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The C.D.C. is investigating a heart problem in a few young vaccine recipients.
In the general population, about 10 to 20 of every 100,000 people each year develop myocarditis, or an inflammation of the heart, experiencing symptoms ranging from fatigue and chest pain to arrhythmias and cardiac arrest. Many others likely have mild symptoms and are never diagnosed, according to researchers.

At the moment, the number of cases of myocarditis reported after vaccination does not appear to be greater than would normally be seen in young people, according to the C.D.C. But members of the agency's vaccine safety group "felt that information about reports of myocarditis should be communicated to providers," the report said.

On May 14, the C.D.C. alerted clinicians to the possible link between myocarditis and vaccines. And on May 17, the working group reviewed data on myocarditis from the Department of Defense, reports filed with the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System and others.

State health departments in Washington, Oregon and California have alerted emergency providers and cardiologists to the potential problem, and a report of seven cases has been submitted to the journal Pediatrics for review.

Dr. Liam Yore, past president of the Washington State chapter of the American College of Emergency Physicians, said in an interview that he recently had seen a teenager with myocarditis after vaccination.

The patient was treated for mild inflammation of the lining of the heart, and was sent home afterward. But the teenager later returned for care with a decrease in the heart's output. Still, Dr. Yore said he had seen worse outcomes in youngsters with Covid, including in a 9-year-old who had arrived at the hospital following a cardiac arrest last winter.

"The relative risk is a lot in favor of getting the vaccine, especially considering how many doses of the vaccine have been administered," he said.

More than 161 million people in the United States have received at least one dose of a coronavirus vaccine; about 4.5 million of them were between 12 and 18 years of age.
Unit2Sucks
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Myocarditis in children has also been associated with COVID. If you wanted to do an apples to apples evaluation of the risks of the vaccine, you should of course also evaluate the risk of the thing you are vaccinating against. But for whatever reason, people who have questions about the vaccine seem to hand wave away all of the known and unknown risks associated with COVID.

Quote:

Is there an increased incidence of COVID-related myocarditis in children?

Viruses are the most common cause of pediatric myocarditis. In general, the most common viruses causing pediatric myocarditis are Coxsackievirus B, other enteroviruses, influenza, rubella, and adenovirus.1 During and after important viral outbreaks, including the original 2002 severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), 2012 Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome (MERS), and 2009 H1N1 influenza A, increases in cardiac abnormalities in adults (suggesting cardiac association with these viruses) have been reported.2,3

More recently, a systematic review specifically evaluated pediatric COVID-19associated myocarditis.7 The authors found that, as of July 2020, there were 570 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)reported cases of pediatric multisystem inflammatory syndrome (PMIS). PMIS is more routinely referred to as MIS-C (multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children) in much of the emerging literature on this topic. The condition is a Kawasaki-like hyperinflammatory disease presentation involving multiple organ systems and often accompanying myocardial dysfunction. As of the end of July 2020, the authors calculated an incidence of CDC-reported MIS-C of approximately 0.2 to 0.6 percent of COVID-19 pediatric infections. In their systematic review, the authors identified 688 cases of MIS-C in the literature, with myocardial dysfunction documented in 340 of 688 of these cases (50.9 percent). Of note, isolated COVID-19associated myocarditis cases have been reported in the literature, but most cases of myocarditis are related to MIS-C.

The overall incidence of COVID-19associated myocarditis is difficult to estimate using these data, as these studies reported MIS-C patients in pediatric ICUs only. The incidence of less severe myocarditis is unknown in both patients with COVID-19 and influenza patients.



Civil Bear
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Unit2Sucks said:

Myocarditis in children has also been associated with COVID. If you wanted to do an apples to apples evaluation of the risks of the vaccine, you should of course also evaluate the risk of the thing you are vaccinating against. But for whatever reason, people who have questions about the vaccine seem to hand wave away all of the known and unknown risks associated with COVID.

Quote:

Is there an increased incidence of COVID-related myocarditis in children?

Viruses are the most common cause of pediatric myocarditis. In general, the most common viruses causing pediatric myocarditis are Coxsackievirus B, other enteroviruses, influenza, rubella, and adenovirus.1 During and after important viral outbreaks, including the original 2002 severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), 2012 Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome (MERS), and 2009 H1N1 influenza A, increases in cardiac abnormalities in adults (suggesting cardiac association with these viruses) have been reported.2,3

More recently, a systematic review specifically evaluated pediatric COVID-19associated myocarditis.7 The authors found that, as of July 2020, there were 570 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)reported cases of pediatric multisystem inflammatory syndrome (PMIS). PMIS is more routinely referred to as MIS-C (multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children) in much of the emerging literature on this topic. The condition is a Kawasaki-like hyperinflammatory disease presentation involving multiple organ systems and often accompanying myocardial dysfunction. As of the end of July 2020, the authors calculated an incidence of CDC-reported MIS-C of approximately 0.2 to 0.6 percent of COVID-19 pediatric infections. In their systematic review, the authors identified 688 cases of MIS-C in the literature, with myocardial dysfunction documented in 340 of 688 of these cases (50.9 percent). Of note, isolated COVID-19associated myocarditis cases have been reported in the literature, but most cases of myocarditis are related to MIS-C.

The overall incidence of COVID-19associated myocarditis is difficult to estimate using these data, as these studies reported MIS-C patients in pediatric ICUs only. The incidence of less severe myocarditis is unknown in both patients with COVID-19 and influenza patients.




Go back and read his posts. They mention myocarditis in children also being associated with COVID. If anyone is doing any handwaving, it's you.
Unit2Sucks
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Civil Bear said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Myocarditis in children has also been associated with COVID. If you wanted to do an apples to apples evaluation of the risks of the vaccine, you should of course also evaluate the risk of the thing you are vaccinating against. But for whatever reason, people who have questions about the vaccine seem to hand wave away all of the known and unknown risks associated with COVID.

Quote:

Is there an increased incidence of COVID-related myocarditis in children?

Viruses are the most common cause of pediatric myocarditis. In general, the most common viruses causing pediatric myocarditis are Coxsackievirus B, other enteroviruses, influenza, rubella, and adenovirus.1 During and after important viral outbreaks, including the original 2002 severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), 2012 Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome (MERS), and 2009 H1N1 influenza A, increases in cardiac abnormalities in adults (suggesting cardiac association with these viruses) have been reported.2,3

More recently, a systematic review specifically evaluated pediatric COVID-19associated myocarditis.7 The authors found that, as of July 2020, there were 570 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)reported cases of pediatric multisystem inflammatory syndrome (PMIS). PMIS is more routinely referred to as MIS-C (multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children) in much of the emerging literature on this topic. The condition is a Kawasaki-like hyperinflammatory disease presentation involving multiple organ systems and often accompanying myocardial dysfunction. As of the end of July 2020, the authors calculated an incidence of CDC-reported MIS-C of approximately 0.2 to 0.6 percent of COVID-19 pediatric infections. In their systematic review, the authors identified 688 cases of MIS-C in the literature, with myocardial dysfunction documented in 340 of 688 of these cases (50.9 percent). Of note, isolated COVID-19associated myocarditis cases have been reported in the literature, but most cases of myocarditis are related to MIS-C.

The overall incidence of COVID-19associated myocarditis is difficult to estimate using these data, as these studies reported MIS-C patients in pediatric ICUs only. The incidence of less severe myocarditis is unknown in both patients with COVID-19 and influenza patients.




Go back and read his posts. They mention myocarditis in children also being associated with COVID. If anyone is doing any handwaving, it's you.


Where has he posted about COVID related myocarditis in this thread? I don't recall any contextualization of the risks of myocarditis from vaccines vs COVID.

These posts aren't helpful, they are just intended to induce fear. If people have questions about the risks of vaccines or COVID, they shouldn't trust random strangers posting on a Cal sports forum, they should speak to their trusted physician. Oski003 has said multiple times he's not a physician. I'm not pretending to by a physician either and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I encourage people to ignore anti-vaxx sentiment spread through social media by people with an agenda and instead rely on their trusted physicians.
Civil Bear
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Unit2Sucks said:

Civil Bear said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Myocarditis in children has also been associated with COVID. If you wanted to do an apples to apples evaluation of the risks of the vaccine, you should of course also evaluate the risk of the thing you are vaccinating against. But for whatever reason, people who have questions about the vaccine seem to hand wave away all of the known and unknown risks associated with COVID.

Quote:

Is there an increased incidence of COVID-related myocarditis in children?

Viruses are the most common cause of pediatric myocarditis. In general, the most common viruses causing pediatric myocarditis are Coxsackievirus B, other enteroviruses, influenza, rubella, and adenovirus.1 During and after important viral outbreaks, including the original 2002 severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), 2012 Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome (MERS), and 2009 H1N1 influenza A, increases in cardiac abnormalities in adults (suggesting cardiac association with these viruses) have been reported.2,3

More recently, a systematic review specifically evaluated pediatric COVID-19associated myocarditis.7 The authors found that, as of July 2020, there were 570 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)reported cases of pediatric multisystem inflammatory syndrome (PMIS). PMIS is more routinely referred to as MIS-C (multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children) in much of the emerging literature on this topic. The condition is a Kawasaki-like hyperinflammatory disease presentation involving multiple organ systems and often accompanying myocardial dysfunction. As of the end of July 2020, the authors calculated an incidence of CDC-reported MIS-C of approximately 0.2 to 0.6 percent of COVID-19 pediatric infections. In their systematic review, the authors identified 688 cases of MIS-C in the literature, with myocardial dysfunction documented in 340 of 688 of these cases (50.9 percent). Of note, isolated COVID-19associated myocarditis cases have been reported in the literature, but most cases of myocarditis are related to MIS-C.

The overall incidence of COVID-19associated myocarditis is difficult to estimate using these data, as these studies reported MIS-C patients in pediatric ICUs only. The incidence of less severe myocarditis is unknown in both patients with COVID-19 and influenza patients.




Go back and read his posts. They mention myocarditis in children also being associated with COVID. If anyone is doing any handwaving, it's you.


Where has he posted about COVID related myocarditis in this thread? I don't recall any contextualization of the risks of myocarditis from vaccines vs COVID.

These posts aren't helpful, they are just intended to induce fear. If people have questions about the risks of vaccines or COVID, they shouldn't trust random strangers posting on a Cal sports forum, they should speak to their trusted physician. Oski003 has said multiple times he's not a physician. I'm not pretending to by a physician either and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I encourage people to ignore anti-vaxx sentiment spread through social media by people with an agenda and instead rely on their trusted physicians.
From Oski003's last post: "Experts emphasized that the potentially rare side effect of myocarditis paled in comparison to the potential risks of Covid, including the persistent syndrome called "long Covid." Acute Covid itself can cause myocarditis."

I suppose the NY Times publishing the possible concerns is just their intention to induce fear as well. Trust me, your constant drumbeat and attempted labelling against anyone that shares conflicting information as anti-vaxxers is persuading no one. In fact, it appears to just cause people to dig in and share more conflicting information. And no one that I have seen is suggesting people only listen to them and not consult with their doctors.
Unit2Sucks
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Civil Bear said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Civil Bear said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Myocarditis in children has also been associated with COVID. If you wanted to do an apples to apples evaluation of the risks of the vaccine, you should of course also evaluate the risk of the thing you are vaccinating against. But for whatever reason, people who have questions about the vaccine seem to hand wave away all of the known and unknown risks associated with COVID.

Quote:

Is there an increased incidence of COVID-related myocarditis in children?

Viruses are the most common cause of pediatric myocarditis. In general, the most common viruses causing pediatric myocarditis are Coxsackievirus B, other enteroviruses, influenza, rubella, and adenovirus.1 During and after important viral outbreaks, including the original 2002 severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), 2012 Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome (MERS), and 2009 H1N1 influenza A, increases in cardiac abnormalities in adults (suggesting cardiac association with these viruses) have been reported.2,3

More recently, a systematic review specifically evaluated pediatric COVID-19associated myocarditis.7 The authors found that, as of July 2020, there were 570 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)reported cases of pediatric multisystem inflammatory syndrome (PMIS). PMIS is more routinely referred to as MIS-C (multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children) in much of the emerging literature on this topic. The condition is a Kawasaki-like hyperinflammatory disease presentation involving multiple organ systems and often accompanying myocardial dysfunction. As of the end of July 2020, the authors calculated an incidence of CDC-reported MIS-C of approximately 0.2 to 0.6 percent of COVID-19 pediatric infections. In their systematic review, the authors identified 688 cases of MIS-C in the literature, with myocardial dysfunction documented in 340 of 688 of these cases (50.9 percent). Of note, isolated COVID-19associated myocarditis cases have been reported in the literature, but most cases of myocarditis are related to MIS-C.

The overall incidence of COVID-19associated myocarditis is difficult to estimate using these data, as these studies reported MIS-C patients in pediatric ICUs only. The incidence of less severe myocarditis is unknown in both patients with COVID-19 and influenza patients.




Go back and read his posts. They mention myocarditis in children also being associated with COVID. If anyone is doing any handwaving, it's you.


Where has he posted about COVID related myocarditis in this thread? I don't recall any contextualization of the risks of myocarditis from vaccines vs COVID.

These posts aren't helpful, they are just intended to induce fear. If people have questions about the risks of vaccines or COVID, they shouldn't trust random strangers posting on a Cal sports forum, they should speak to their trusted physician. Oski003 has said multiple times he's not a physician. I'm not pretending to by a physician either and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I encourage people to ignore anti-vaxx sentiment spread through social media by people with an agenda and instead rely on their trusted physicians.
From Oski003's last post: "Experts emphasized that the potentially rare side effect of myocarditis paled in comparison to the potential risks of Covid, including the persistent syndrome called "long Covid." Acute Covid itself can cause myocarditis."

I suppose the NY Times publishing the possible concerns is just their intention to induce fear as well. Trust me, your constant drumbeat and attempted labelling against anyone that shares conflicting information as anti-vaxxers is persuading no one. In fact, it appears to just cause people to dig in and share more conflicting information. And no one that I have seen is suggesting people only listen to them and not consult with their doctors.
My constant drumbeat is against misinformation and I make no apologies for that.

You have made it quite clear that have concerns about vaccinating the young children you care for. Presumably you are speaking to their pediatrician and not relying on the cherry-picked posts of anonymous lay people on the internet who find articles that say that people are now studying whether the vaccine causes some of the same problems that COVID causes.

Not all "information" is helpful and when information isn't properly contextualized, as we often see from agenda-driven people, it can be used to drive unwarranted fears. This has been the anti-vaxxer's greatest weapon historically and it's led to countless public health issues because parents fall prey to this uninformed agenda. Look no further than the Minnesota measles outbreak from a few years ago to see the deleterious effects of this tactic. The pandemic is hard enough to defeat on its own.
calumnus
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Civil Bear said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Civil Bear said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Myocarditis in children has also been associated with COVID. If you wanted to do an apples to apples evaluation of the risks of the vaccine, you should of course also evaluate the risk of the thing you are vaccinating against. But for whatever reason, people who have questions about the vaccine seem to hand wave away all of the known and unknown risks associated with COVID.

Quote:

Is there an increased incidence of COVID-related myocarditis in children?

Viruses are the most common cause of pediatric myocarditis. In general, the most common viruses causing pediatric myocarditis are Coxsackievirus B, other enteroviruses, influenza, rubella, and adenovirus.1 During and after important viral outbreaks, including the original 2002 severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), 2012 Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome (MERS), and 2009 H1N1 influenza A, increases in cardiac abnormalities in adults (suggesting cardiac association with these viruses) have been reported.2,3

More recently, a systematic review specifically evaluated pediatric COVID-19associated myocarditis.7 The authors found that, as of July 2020, there were 570 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)reported cases of pediatric multisystem inflammatory syndrome (PMIS). PMIS is more routinely referred to as MIS-C (multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children) in much of the emerging literature on this topic. The condition is a Kawasaki-like hyperinflammatory disease presentation involving multiple organ systems and often accompanying myocardial dysfunction. As of the end of July 2020, the authors calculated an incidence of CDC-reported MIS-C of approximately 0.2 to 0.6 percent of COVID-19 pediatric infections. In their systematic review, the authors identified 688 cases of MIS-C in the literature, with myocardial dysfunction documented in 340 of 688 of these cases (50.9 percent). Of note, isolated COVID-19associated myocarditis cases have been reported in the literature, but most cases of myocarditis are related to MIS-C.

The overall incidence of COVID-19associated myocarditis is difficult to estimate using these data, as these studies reported MIS-C patients in pediatric ICUs only. The incidence of less severe myocarditis is unknown in both patients with COVID-19 and influenza patients.




Go back and read his posts. They mention myocarditis in children also being associated with COVID. If anyone is doing any handwaving, it's you.


Where has he posted about COVID related myocarditis in this thread? I don't recall any contextualization of the risks of myocarditis from vaccines vs COVID.

These posts aren't helpful, they are just intended to induce fear. If people have questions about the risks of vaccines or COVID, they shouldn't trust random strangers posting on a Cal sports forum, they should speak to their trusted physician. Oski003 has said multiple times he's not a physician. I'm not pretending to by a physician either and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I encourage people to ignore anti-vaxx sentiment spread through social media by people with an agenda and instead rely on their trusted physicians.
From Oski003's last post: "Experts emphasized that the potentially rare side effect of myocarditis paled in comparison to the potential risks of Covid, including the persistent syndrome called "long Covid." Acute Covid itself can cause myocarditis."

I suppose the NY Times publishing the possible concerns is just their intention to induce fear as well. Trust me, your constant drumbeat and attempted labelling against anyone that shares conflicting information as anti-vaxxers is persuading no one. In fact, it appears to just cause people to dig in and share more conflicting information. And no one that I have seen is suggesting people only listen to them and not consult with their doctors.


However, it is not just accute cases of COVID that are associated with myocarditis, many of the cases have developed in people who had mild cases.

The point stands, no one is saying a vaccine is without risks. Those risks just need to be weighed against the risk of the disease you are vaccinating against. When we were vaccinating against smallpox and polio most agreed that the risks of the disease made vaccine worth it, and we have greatly improved the safety of vaccines from those.

It does seem like there is a huge overlap between people who dismissed the dangers of COVID ("no worse than the flu" "only people with comorbidities die" "no danger to anyone under 60" "the cases of myocarditis cannot be proven to be from the COVID" and those who look for and sensationalize any risk of the vaccine.

There is a "free rider" effect with vaccines. The best for you as an individual is likely for everyone else to be vaccinated and you not. However if everyone adopts that attitude we will not control much less eliminate COVID and many more millions will die.
BearForce2
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The OT forum is a left wing bubble consisting mainly of delusional lefties who spread disinformation. Their favorite topic? Donald J. Trump. Their least favorite topic? The current president, Joe Biden.
GivemTheAxe
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calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Civil Bear said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Myocarditis in children has also been associated with COVID. If you wanted to do an apples to apples evaluation of the risks of the vaccine, you should of course also evaluate the risk of the thing you are vaccinating against. But for whatever reason, people who have questions about the vaccine seem to hand wave away all of the known and unknown risks associated with COVID.

Quote:

Is there an increased incidence of COVID-related myocarditis in children?

Viruses are the most common cause of pediatric myocarditis. In general, the most common viruses causing pediatric myocarditis are Coxsackievirus B, other enteroviruses, influenza, rubella, and adenovirus.1 During and after important viral outbreaks, including the original 2002 severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), 2012 Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome (MERS), and 2009 H1N1 influenza A, increases in cardiac abnormalities in adults (suggesting cardiac association with these viruses) have been reported.2,3

More recently, a systematic review specifically evaluated pediatric COVID-19associated myocarditis.7 The authors found that, as of July 2020, there were 570 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)reported cases of pediatric multisystem inflammatory syndrome (PMIS). PMIS is more routinely referred to as MIS-C (multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children) in much of the emerging literature on this topic. The condition is a Kawasaki-like hyperinflammatory disease presentation involving multiple organ systems and often accompanying myocardial dysfunction. As of the end of July 2020, the authors calculated an incidence of CDC-reported MIS-C of approximately 0.2 to 0.6 percent of COVID-19 pediatric infections. In their systematic review, the authors identified 688 cases of MIS-C in the literature, with myocardial dysfunction documented in 340 of 688 of these cases (50.9 percent). Of note, isolated COVID-19associated myocarditis cases have been reported in the literature, but most cases of myocarditis are related to MIS-C.

The overall incidence of COVID-19associated myocarditis is difficult to estimate using these data, as these studies reported MIS-C patients in pediatric ICUs only. The incidence of less severe myocarditis is unknown in both patients with COVID-19 and influenza patients.




Go back and read his posts. They mention myocarditis in children also being associated with COVID. If anyone is doing any handwaving, it's you.


Where has he posted about COVID related myocarditis in this thread? I don't recall any contextualization of the risks of myocarditis from vaccines vs COVID.

These posts aren't helpful, they are just intended to induce fear. If people have questions about the risks of vaccines or COVID, they shouldn't trust random strangers posting on a Cal sports forum, they should speak to their trusted physician. Oski003 has said multiple times he's not a physician. I'm not pretending to by a physician either and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I encourage people to ignore anti-vaxx sentiment spread through social media by people with an agenda and instead rely on their trusted physicians.
From Oski003's last post: "Experts emphasized that the potentially rare side effect of myocarditis paled in comparison to the potential risks of Covid, including the persistent syndrome called "long Covid." Acute Covid itself can cause myocarditis."

I suppose the NY Times publishing the possible concerns is just their intention to induce fear as well. Trust me, your constant drumbeat and attempted labelling against anyone that shares conflicting information as anti-vaxxers is persuading no one. In fact, it appears to just cause people to dig in and share more conflicting information. And no one that I have seen is suggesting people only listen to them and not consult with their doctors.


However, it is not just accute cases of COVID that are associated with myocarditis, many of the cases have developed in people who had mild cases.

The point stands, no one is saying a vaccine is without risks. Those risks just need to be weighed against the risk of the disease you are vaccinating against. When we were vaccinating against smallpox and polio most agreed that the risks of the disease made vaccine worth it, and we have greatly improved the safety of vaccines from those.

It does seem like there is a huge overlap between people who dismissed the dangers of COVID ("no worse than the flu" "only people with comorbidities die" "no danger to anyone under 60" "the cases of myocarditis cannot be proven to be from the COVID" and those who look for and sensationalize any risk of the vaccine.

There is a "free rider" effect with vaccines. The best for you as an individual is likely for everyone else to be vaccinated and you not. However if everyone adopts that attitude we will not control much less eliminate COVID and many more millions will die.


A report today on msnbc points out that:

1. the number of cases of myocarditis in the young are very rare fewer than 200 vs the millions of young people who have been vaccinated with Moderna and Pfizer.
2. So far there is no clear link between the myocarditis and the vaccines.
3. Myocarditis is not uncommon in young males even without the vaccine
4. All cases of myocardialitis are in the US. None in Europe or Israel.
5. The young if unvaccinated are at greater risk of catching COVID than of developing myocarditis if they took the vaccine (assuming it is caused by the
vaccine).
6. If the young catch COVID it is a more serious health risk than developing myocardialitis
oski003
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https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/europe-s-drug-regulator-evaluates-reports-heart-inflammation-rare-nerve-disorder-covid-19

Europe and Israel as well. My take on this is that there is an undersupply of Pfizer compared to the demands of Europe and Israel. Pfizer is likely asking them not to look a gift horse in the mouth.
oski003
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...
GivemTheAxe
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oski003 said:

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/europe-s-drug-regulator-evaluates-reports-heart-inflammation-rare-nerve-disorder-covid-19

Europe and Israel as well. My take on this is that there is an undersupply of Pfizer compared to the demands of Europe and Israel. Pfizer is likely asking them not to look a gift horse in the mouth.


Let me get this straight. You conclude (guess?) that there is some conspiracy between the manufacturer and Europe/Israel not to look a gift horse in the mouth ( I.e. ignore any possible negative effects of the vaccine) even though the report that you cite states that the governing medical body:
1. Has not found any connection. 2. Has nevertheless recommended that a warning be placed on the drug for certain susceptible patients who might suffer adverse effects. 3. has advised physicians to be on the alert for possible occurrences in other patients.

Isn't that conclusion at least a little illogical:
"We want to keep this rare problem a secret so let's tell everyone that maybe there is a problem and to keep an eye out for further recurrence of the problem."

My take is that; a. All parties are aware that there is a POSSIBLE problem in VERY RARE circumstances; b. All parties agree to keep an eye out for other similar occurrences; c. All parties understand that the clear benefits of the vaccine greatly outweigh the risks that might arise especially when no one has demonstrated that this particular problem really exists.

Thus my conclusion avoids the need to imagine a conspiracy among health professionals many of whom have sworn an oath to do no harm.
oski003
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GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/europe-s-drug-regulator-evaluates-reports-heart-inflammation-rare-nerve-disorder-covid-19

Europe and Israel as well. My take on this is that there is an undersupply of Pfizer compared to the demands of Europe and Israel. Pfizer is likely asking them not to look a gift horse in the mouth.


Let me get this straight. You conclude (guess?) that there is some conspiracy between the manufacturer and Europe/Israel not to look a gift horse in the mouth ( I.e. ignore any possible negative effects of the vaccine) even though the report that you cite states that the governing medical body:
1. Has not found any connection. 2. Has nevertheless recommended that a warning be placed on the drug for certain susceptible patients who might suffer adverse effects. 3. has advised physicians to be on the alert for possible occurrences in other patients.

Isn't that conclusion at least a little illogical:
"We want to keep this rare problem a secret so let's tell everyone that maybe there is a problem and to keep an eye out for further recurrence of the problem."

My take is that; a. All parties are aware that there is a POSSIBLE problem in VERY RARE circumstances; b. All parties agree to keep an eye out for other similar occurrences; c. All parties understand that the clear benefits of the vaccine greatly outweigh the risks that might arise especially when no one has demonstrated that this particular problem really exists.

Thus my conclusion avoids the need to imagine a conspiracy among health professionals many of whom have sworn an oath to do no harm.


All parties are aware that there is a POSSIBLE problem in VERY RARE circumstances; b. All parties agree to keep an eye out for other similar occurrences; c. All parties understand that the clear benefits of the vaccine greatly outweigh the risks that might arise especially

*when no one has demonstrated that this particular problem really exists*

Agree with everything but the statement in the asterisks. BP is incredibly influential in the USA and elsewhere. The problem exists but countries that need to get their population vaccinated (almost all) and believe Pfizer is the best mass manufactured vaccine (which it is) are not going to make a big deal about myocarditis.

Here is a local story on myocarditis.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kiro7.com/news/local/kenmore-teen-develops-myocarditis-after-2nd-vaccine-shot-cdc-investigating-possible-rare-side-effect/2XVGAAJYXBATJFF3NS7JQUZCBE/%3foutputType=amp
oski003
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another one.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/mom-of-conn-teen-speaks-after-son-suffers-heart-condition-days-after-covid-19-vaccine/2495057/
BearForce2
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The OT forum is a left wing bubble consisting mainly of delusional lefties who spread disinformation. Their favorite topic? Donald J. Trump. Their least favorite topic? The current president, Joe Biden.
dimitrig
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BearForce2 said:



Duh. However, you can still spread the virus to those other age groups if you catch it

Big C
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BearForce2 said:



I am missing a piece from Mr. Kerpen's work: Where is the "vaccinated" part? How many vaccinated people ages 30-75 have died of COVID? Ages 75+?
GivemTheAxe
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oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/europe-s-drug-regulator-evaluates-reports-heart-inflammation-rare-nerve-disorder-covid-19

Europe and Israel as well. My take on this is that there is an undersupply of Pfizer compared to the demands of Europe and Israel. Pfizer is likely asking them not to look a gift horse in the mouth.


Let me get this straight. You conclude (guess?) that there is some conspiracy between the manufacturer and Europe/Israel not to look a gift horse in the mouth ( I.e. ignore any possible negative effects of the vaccine) even though the report that you cite states that the governing medical body:
1. Has not found any connection. 2. Has nevertheless recommended that a warning be placed on the drug for certain susceptible patients who might suffer adverse effects. 3. has advised physicians to be on the alert for possible occurrences in other patients.

Isn't that conclusion at least a little illogical:
"We want to keep this rare problem a secret so let's tell everyone that maybe there is a problem and to keep an eye out for further recurrence of the problem."

My take is that; a. All parties are aware that there is a POSSIBLE problem in VERY RARE circumstances; b. All parties agree to keep an eye out for other similar occurrences; c. All parties understand that the clear benefits of the vaccine greatly outweigh the risks that might arise especially when no one has demonstrated that this particular problem really exists.

Thus my conclusion avoids the need to imagine a conspiracy among health professionals many of whom have sworn an oath to do no harm.


All parties are aware that there is a POSSIBLE problem in VERY RARE circumstances; b. All parties agree to keep an eye out for other similar occurrences; c. All parties understand that the clear benefits of the vaccine greatly outweigh the risks that might arise especially

*when no one has demonstrated that this particular problem really exists*

Agree with everything but the statement in the asterisks. BP is incredibly influential in the USA and elsewhere. The problem exists but countries that need to get their population vaccinated (almost all) and believe Pfizer is the best mass manufactured vaccine (which it is) are not going to make a big deal about myocarditis.

Here is a local story on myocarditis.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kiro7.com/news/local/kenmore-teen-develops-myocarditis-after-2nd-vaccine-shot-cdc-investigating-possible-rare-side-effect/2XVGAAJYXBATJFF3NS7JQUZCBE/%3foutputType=amp


The focus of my post was not that there is no connection between the vaccine and myocarditis but that there is no "grand conspiracy" to hide a well known connection between the vaccine and myocarditis.

The argument that there is some "grand conspiracy" serves only to encourage the antivaxxers. "Don't get the vaccine" "ignore what the experts say" yadda yadda yadda
oski003
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reports out of Israel indicate that the myocarditis rate in those under 30 may be as low as 1 in 3000.

oski003
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https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/belgium-says-halts-jj-covid-jab-under-41s-after-one-dies-2021-05-26/

Belgium will no longer use JNJ in those 40 and under.
Unit2Sucks
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As most people now know, Moderna's now seeking FDA approval for its vaccine for 12-17 year olds. I am not surprised that oski003 didn't highlight this because he only points out potentially negative news re vaccines.

From the American Academy of Pediatrics:
Quote:

Moderna to seek FDA authorization in June for COVID-19 vaccine in teens

Moderna said its COVID-19 vaccine was 100% effective for teenagers in clinical trials, and the company plans to seek emergency use authorization (EUA) from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in early June.

The data came Tuesday just as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released information on breakthrough infections among vaccinated people of all ages.

Moderna's trials enrolled more than 3,700 adolescents ages 12-17 years who were randomized to receive the vaccine or a placebo. After two doses, there were four cases of COVID-19 in the placebo group and none in the vaccine group, according to a Moderna press release. The data have not been published in a peer-reviewed journal.

The company also analyzed data based on a COVID-19 case definition that includes more mild disease and found a vaccine efficacy of 93% after the first dose. In addition, an immunogenicity analysis showed teens' immune responses were just as robust as those of adults.

The teen trials did not present any significant safety concerns, according to Moderna. The most common side effects from the vaccine were injection site pain, headache, fatigue, myalgia and chills.

Moderna's results come two weeks after the FDA extended an EUA for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine for adolescents as young as 12. Trials for that vaccine also showed 100% efficacy for adolescents.

More than 4.7 million adolescents ages 12-17 have received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine, according to CDC data. While the vaccines have been safe and effective, the CDC is investigating a small number of cases of myocarditis in adolescents and young adults after vaccination to see if they are related. Most of those cases have been mild, but pediatricians should report any such cases to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

oski003
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Unit2Sucks said:

As most people now know, Moderna's now seeking FDA approval for its vaccine for 12-17 year olds. I am not surprised that oski003 didn't highlight this because he only points out potentially negative news re vaccines.

From the American Academy of Pediatrics:
Quote:

Moderna to seek FDA authorization in June for COVID-19 vaccine in teens

Moderna said its COVID-19 vaccine was 100% effective for teenagers in clinical trials, and the company plans to seek emergency use authorization (EUA) from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in early June.

The data came Tuesday just as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released information on breakthrough infections among vaccinated people of all ages.

Moderna's trials enrolled more than 3,700 adolescents ages 12-17 years who were randomized to receive the vaccine or a placebo. After two doses, there were four cases of COVID-19 in the placebo group and none in the vaccine group, according to a Moderna press release. The data have not been published in a peer-reviewed journal.

The company also analyzed data based on a COVID-19 case definition that includes more mild disease and found a vaccine efficacy of 93% after the first dose. In addition, an immunogenicity analysis showed teens' immune responses were just as robust as those of adults.

The teen trials did not present any significant safety concerns, according to Moderna. The most common side effects from the vaccine were injection site pain, headache, fatigue, myalgia and chills.

Moderna's results come two weeks after the FDA extended an EUA for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine for adolescents as young as 12. Trials for that vaccine also showed 100% efficacy for adolescents.

More than 4.7 million adolescents ages 12-17 have received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine, according to CDC data. While the vaccines have been safe and effective, the CDC is investigating a small number of cases of myocarditis in adolescents and young adults after vaccination to see if they are related. Most of those cases have been mild, but pediatricians should report any such cases to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.




If I had a choice on which EUA vaccine I would give my kids. It would Pfizer, then Moderna, then JnJ.

I did not realize I was under obligation to report that Moderna was seeking EUA for 12-17. It is the natural progression of things for how they are currently going.
oski003
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Sources at the FDA also just indicated they will likely not evaluate any vaccines for EUA unless they were already in discussions with the FDA re EUA (cough cough OWS and Big Pharma)
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:





If I had a choice on which EUA vaccine I would give my kids. It would Pfizer, then Moderna, then JnJ.

I did not realize I was under obligation to report that Moderna was seeking EUA for 12-17. It is the natural progression of things for how they are currently going.
You are not under any obligation to cherry pick every potential negative association with the vaccines, but you choose to do so anyway.

Almost everything in life has tradeoffs. Rather than point out the benefits of the vaccine, you are choosing to highlight every negative you can find and only the negatives.

Here's the latest CDC data on breakthrough infections and it's pretty good. Meanwhile, in just the last week of April, 350K+ unvaccinated Americans were infected.

Quote:

A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 4074 years). Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died. Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years (interquartile range = 7189 years); 28 (18%) decedents were asymptomatic or died from a cause unrelated to COVID-19. Sequence data were available from 555 (5%) reported cases, 356 (64%) of which were identified as SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern, including B.1.1.7 (199; 56%), B.1.429 (88; 25%), B.1.427 (28; 8%), P.1 (28; 8%), and B.1.351 (13; 4%).

oski003
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Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:





If I had a choice on which EUA vaccine I would give my kids. It would Pfizer, then Moderna, then JnJ.

I did not realize I was under obligation to report that Moderna was seeking EUA for 12-17. It is the natural progression of things for how they are currently going.
You are not under any obligation to cherry pick every potential negative association with the vaccines, but you choose to do so anyway.

Almost everything in life has tradeoffs. Rather than point out the benefits of the vaccine, you are choosing to highlight every negative you can find and only the negatives.

Here's the latest CDC data on breakthrough infections and it's pretty good. Meanwhile, in just the last week of April, 350K+ unvaccinated Americans were infected.

Quote:

A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 4074 years). Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died. Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years (interquartile range = 7189 years); 28 (18%) decedents were asymptomatic or died from a cause unrelated to COVID-19. Sequence data were available from 555 (5%) reported cases, 356 (64%) of which were identified as SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern, including B.1.1.7 (199; 56%), B.1.429 (88; 25%), B.1.427 (28; 8%), P.1 (28; 8%), and B.1.351 (13; 4%).




You have every right to post positive EUA vaccine data and news. That does not mean you are right in criticizing me for personally not doing so.
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:





If I had a choice on which EUA vaccine I would give my kids. It would Pfizer, then Moderna, then JnJ.

I did not realize I was under obligation to report that Moderna was seeking EUA for 12-17. It is the natural progression of things for how they are currently going.
You are not under any obligation to cherry pick every potential negative association with the vaccines, but you choose to do so anyway.

Almost everything in life has tradeoffs. Rather than point out the benefits of the vaccine, you are choosing to highlight every negative you can find and only the negatives.

Here's the latest CDC data on breakthrough infections and it's pretty good. Meanwhile, in just the last week of April, 350K+ unvaccinated Americans were infected.

Quote:

A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 4074 years). Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died. Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years (interquartile range = 7189 years); 28 (18%) decedents were asymptomatic or died from a cause unrelated to COVID-19. Sequence data were available from 555 (5%) reported cases, 356 (64%) of which were identified as SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern, including B.1.1.7 (199; 56%), B.1.429 (88; 25%), B.1.427 (28; 8%), P.1 (28; 8%), and B.1.351 (13; 4%).




You have every right to post positive EUA vaccine data and news. That does not mean you are right in criticizing me for personally not doing so.
Are you criticizing me for criticizing you? Does this mean you are right for doing so?

As far as I can tell this is a discussion forum where civil disagreements are appropriate. I'm merely pointing out, to anyone not paying close attention, that you are cherry-picking negative data regarding the vaccines. Rather than acknowledge you are doing so, you are objecting to the fact that I'm pointing it out. Your goal in posting news that paints the vaccines in a negative light is intended to create and/or further hesitancy regarding the COVID vaccines because you believe they may be unsafe. You are not providing context regarding those negative data points because you aren't interested in a balanced discussion that might cause people to disregard your message that the vaccines are unsafe. You should just own it.
oski003
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Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:





If I had a choice on which EUA vaccine I would give my kids. It would Pfizer, then Moderna, then JnJ.

I did not realize I was under obligation to report that Moderna was seeking EUA for 12-17. It is the natural progression of things for how they are currently going.
You are not under any obligation to cherry pick every potential negative association with the vaccines, but you choose to do so anyway.

Almost everything in life has tradeoffs. Rather than point out the benefits of the vaccine, you are choosing to highlight every negative you can find and only the negatives.

Here's the latest CDC data on breakthrough infections and it's pretty good. Meanwhile, in just the last week of April, 350K+ unvaccinated Americans were infected.

Quote:

A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 4074 years). Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died. Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years (interquartile range = 7189 years); 28 (18%) decedents were asymptomatic or died from a cause unrelated to COVID-19. Sequence data were available from 555 (5%) reported cases, 356 (64%) of which were identified as SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern, including B.1.1.7 (199; 56%), B.1.429 (88; 25%), B.1.427 (28; 8%), P.1 (28; 8%), and B.1.351 (13; 4%).




You have every right to post positive EUA vaccine data and news. That does not mean you are right in criticizing me for personally not doing so.
Are you criticizing me for criticizing you? Does this mean you are right for doing so?

As far as I can tell this is a discussion forum where civil disagreements are appropriate. I'm merely pointing out, to anyone not paying close attention, that you are cherry-picking negative data regarding the vaccines. Rather than acknowledge you are doing so, you are objecting to the fact that I'm pointing it out. Your goal in posting news that paints the vaccines in a negative light is intended to create and/or further hesitancy regarding the COVID vaccines because you believe they may be unsafe. You are not providing context regarding those negative data points because you aren't interested in a balanced discussion that might cause people to disregard your message that the vaccines are unsafe. You should just own it.



So, if someone criticizes Wilcox, they are obligated to also post all the good things he does?

Frankly, the positives of the vaccine are near common knowledge. The press bombards us with it. Side effects are good! etc... I also acknowledged that my wife and I are vaccinated, which was the right thing to do.

I believe that the JnJ vaccine is actually a better tech against covid vaccines because of t cell production, even if it is low on antibodies. I think the mrna and protein vaccines that produce incredible amounts of antibodies are too strong and too effective, at least for a short period. If they could solve the blood clotting problem of jnj, they would have a good vaccine. It will not stop covid, but it will prevent severe disease. I think the mrna vaccines are too powerful for young, healthy people.

Too many side effects. Lost time at work. My kids day care was closed on the monday after the providers got the mrna second shot due to side effects.

The first generation vaccines are not the best vaccines. However, big pharma is not letting go of that cash cow.
GivemTheAxe
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oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:





If I had a choice on which EUA vaccine I would give my kids. It would Pfizer, then Moderna, then JnJ.

I did not realize I was under obligation to report that Moderna was seeking EUA for 12-17. It is the natural progression of things for how they are currently going.
You are not under any obligation to cherry pick every potential negative association with the vaccines, but you choose to do so anyway.

Almost everything in life has tradeoffs. Rather than point out the benefits of the vaccine, you are choosing to highlight every negative you can find and only the negatives.

Here's the latest CDC data on breakthrough infections and it's pretty good. Meanwhile, in just the last week of April, 350K+ unvaccinated Americans were infected.

Quote:

A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 4074 years). Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died. Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years (interquartile range = 7189 years); 28 (18%) decedents were asymptomatic or died from a cause unrelated to COVID-19. Sequence data were available from 555 (5%) reported cases, 356 (64%) of which were identified as SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern, including B.1.1.7 (199; 56%), B.1.429 (88; 25%), B.1.427 (28; 8%), P.1 (28; 8%), and B.1.351 (13; 4%).




You have every right to post positive EUA vaccine data and news. That does not mean you are right in criticizing me for personally not doing so.
Are you criticizing me for criticizing you? Does this mean you are right for doing so?

As far as I can tell this is a discussion forum where civil disagreements are appropriate. I'm merely pointing out, to anyone not paying close attention, that you are cherry-picking negative data regarding the vaccines. Rather than acknowledge you are doing so, you are objecting to the fact that I'm pointing it out. Your goal in posting news that paints the vaccines in a negative light is intended to create and/or further hesitancy regarding the COVID vaccines because you believe they may be unsafe. You are not providing context regarding those negative data points because you aren't interested in a balanced discussion that might cause people to disregard your message that the vaccines are unsafe. You should just own it.



So, if someone criticizes Wilcox, they are obligated to also post all the good things he does?

Frankly, the positives of the vaccine are near common knowledge. The press bombards us with it. Side effects are good! etc... I also acknowledged that my wife and I are vaccinated, which was the right thing to do.

I believe that the JnJ vaccine is actually a better tech against covid vaccines because of t cell production, even if it is low on antibodies. I think the mrna and protein vaccines that produce incredible amounts of antibodies are too strong and too effective, at least for a short period. If they could solve the blood clotting problem of jnj, they would have a good vaccine. It will not stop covid, but it will prevent severe disease. I think the mrna vaccines are too powerful for young, healthy people.

Too many side effects. Lost time at work. My kids day care was closed on the monday after the providers got the mrna second shot due to side effects.

The first generation vaccines are not the best vaccines. However, big pharma is not letting go of that cash cow.


Once again you conclude your post with criticism of the vaccine (the first generation of the vaccine is not as good as later generations and there are side effects that cause people to lose time at work) and the motives of the vaccine manufacturers.

Yes first generation vaccines are probably not as good as later generations. But that will be true of the second generation and the third generation

How long is the public to wait until the vaccines are perfect enough to receive your seal of approval. And how many people with catch COVID in the interim?

Yes many people felt sick after the second shot of vaccine and it caused many to miss work. So did I. But it was a small price to pay for me to receive proven protection against a disease that could kill or could cause me other serious damage. In the long term the vaccine has made me more effective and productive

Yes Big pharma is making big bucks from providing the vaccine. But that does not mean that Big Pharma would resist making improvements to the vaccine as they become available (Making improvements changes would not cut much into their profits. More likely it would increase those profits as the first people vaccinated would come back for booster shots.).
oski003
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GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:





If I had a choice on which EUA vaccine I would give my kids. It would Pfizer, then Moderna, then JnJ.

I did not realize I was under obligation to report that Moderna was seeking EUA for 12-17. It is the natural progression of things for how they are currently going.
You are not under any obligation to cherry pick every potential negative association with the vaccines, but you choose to do so anyway.

Almost everything in life has tradeoffs. Rather than point out the benefits of the vaccine, you are choosing to highlight every negative you can find and only the negatives.

Here's the latest CDC data on breakthrough infections and it's pretty good. Meanwhile, in just the last week of April, 350K+ unvaccinated Americans were infected.

Quote:

A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 4074 years). Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died. Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years (interquartile range = 7189 years); 28 (18%) decedents were asymptomatic or died from a cause unrelated to COVID-19. Sequence data were available from 555 (5%) reported cases, 356 (64%) of which were identified as SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern, including B.1.1.7 (199; 56%), B.1.429 (88; 25%), B.1.427 (28; 8%), P.1 (28; 8%), and B.1.351 (13; 4%).




You have every right to post positive EUA vaccine data and news. That does not mean you are right in criticizing me for personally not doing so.
Are you criticizing me for criticizing you? Does this mean you are right for doing so?

As far as I can tell this is a discussion forum where civil disagreements are appropriate. I'm merely pointing out, to anyone not paying close attention, that you are cherry-picking negative data regarding the vaccines. Rather than acknowledge you are doing so, you are objecting to the fact that I'm pointing it out. Your goal in posting news that paints the vaccines in a negative light is intended to create and/or further hesitancy regarding the COVID vaccines because you believe they may be unsafe. You are not providing context regarding those negative data points because you aren't interested in a balanced discussion that might cause people to disregard your message that the vaccines are unsafe. You should just own it.



So, if someone criticizes Wilcox, they are obligated to also post all the good things he does?

Frankly, the positives of the vaccine are near common knowledge. The press bombards us with it. Side effects are good! etc... I also acknowledged that my wife and I are vaccinated, which was the right thing to do.

I believe that the JnJ vaccine is actually a better tech against covid vaccines because of t cell production, even if it is low on antibodies. I think the mrna and protein vaccines that produce incredible amounts of antibodies are too strong and too effective, at least for a short period. If they could solve the blood clotting problem of jnj, they would have a good vaccine. It will not stop covid, but it will prevent severe disease. I think the mrna vaccines are too powerful for young, healthy people.

Too many side effects. Lost time at work. My kids day care was closed on the monday after the providers got the mrna second shot due to side effects.

The first generation vaccines are not the best vaccines. However, big pharma is not letting go of that cash cow.


Once again you conclude your post with criticism of the vaccine (the first generation of the vaccine is not as good as later generations and there are side effects that cause people to lose time at work) and the motives of the vaccine manufacturers.

Yes first generation vaccines are probably not as good as later generations. But that will be true of the second generation and the third generation

How long is the public to wait until the vaccines are perfect enough to receive your seal of approval. And how many people with catch COVID in the interim?

Yes many people felt sick after the second shot of vaccine and it caused many to miss work. So did I. But it was a small price to pay for me to receive proven protection against a disease that could kill or could cause me other serious damage. In the long term the vaccine has made me more effective and productive

Yes Big pharma is making big bucks from providing the vaccine. But that does not mean that Big Pharma would resist making improvements to the vaccine as they become available (Making improvements changes would not cut much into their profits. More likely it would increase those profits as the first people vaccinated would come back for booster shots.).


What U.S. company was the first company to start phase 1 human trials before finishing primate trials? who created their vaccine and owns the patents? This same company was given a billion dollars from OWS to do trials and is profiting tremendously from vaccine sales as they sell for $20-40 per dose. Was the head of the fda covid vaccine advisory committee actually removed because a whistleblower outted her for being both the editor of nejm where this company published their trial data and the lead trial investigator of this company's trial?

What U.S. company was the second company to start phase 1 human clinical trials (april 2020), starting after primate trials? Why was their phase 2 delayed? Why was their phase 3 delayed and then defunded?

What U.S. company started a phase 2/3 trial within 2 months of starting their phase 1 trial? Why were they able to do so? What was their published efficacy? against what? this company was given a billion+ dollars of tax money despite being one of the largest corporations on the planet.

What U.S. company started phase 3 in britain and then, delayed, later were able to start phase 3 in usa even though they were given fda fast track designation. This same company finally started making vaccine in India right now because Biden for months restricted needed exports to make it because pfizer moderna and jnj needed them.

The companies that have partnered with big pharma have been able to bring vaccines to market. The fda cdc and nih are working with bp to get needles in arms and get more people innoculated. while i feel there is some development of next generation vaccines, it is not happening in the united states. bp is calling the shots. vaccines without side effects are assumed to be ineffective because the side effects mean the vaccine is working. the tale wags the dog bc, with covid, the government needs big pharma more than big pharma needs the government.
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
.The best vaccines will not be funded and developed in the United States. They may be available in 1-2 years in the USA as a booster after completing trials overseas. BP has this market cornered, and my toddler age kids will have the options of mrna or likely no vaccine. Possibly JnJ.

If a covid vaccine causes myocarditis because covid causes myocarditis, why does this occur mainly with mrna vaccines?

If a covid vaccine causes blood clotting because covid causes such, why does it occur mainly with adenovirus vaccines?

Isn't there a covid vaccine that does neither and still works?

Why the focus on high antibodies if ultimately t and b cells are what protect us from a mutating coronavirus?

Does my flu vaccine not work because I had hardly any side effects?
 
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