The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

941,267 Views | 10275 Replies | Last: 1 hr ago by Cal88
sycasey
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Big C said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

movielover said:

Today Joe Biden activated 3,000 reserve troops for deployment as part of Operation Atlantic Resolve.

Previously, Biden increased our troop numbers in Europe from 80,000 to 100,000.

Mission creep continues.
I am not a fan of this move. I fear a Vietnam-like incremental crawl to actual US boots on the ground in Ukraine. I'm all for arming Ukraine, but no US blood should ever be spilled there.

It's still not likely this will happen.

True, but if the war is not contained to Russia-Ukraine, the chances go way up.

I care about Ukrainians. Heck, I even care about the average Rooskie. But by far the worst thing that could happen would be if this war were to spread.

Which is part of the point of aiding Ukraine's fight. It keeps Russia contained there. Again, Russia could stop at any time.

Sure, the risks are not zero. But IMO so far the US and NATO have followed the least risky strategy: not getting into the fighting themselves, but helping Ukraine keep Putin at bay and wasting away his resources there.
dimitrig
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Cal88 said:




That's funny given Putin's diminutive height.





Cal88
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sycasey said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

movielover said:

Today Joe Biden activated 3,000 reserve troops for deployment as part of Operation Atlantic Resolve.

Previously, Biden increased our troop numbers in Europe from 80,000 to 100,000.

Mission creep continues.
I am not a fan of this move. I fear a Vietnam-like incremental crawl to actual US boots on the ground in Ukraine. I'm all for arming Ukraine, but no US blood should ever be spilled there.

It's still not likely this will happen.

True, but if the war is not contained to Russia-Ukraine, the chances go way up.

I care about Ukrainians. Heck, I even care about the average Rooskie. But by far the worst thing that could happen would be if this war were to spread.

Which is part of the point of aiding Ukraine's fight. It keeps Russia contained there. Again, Russia could stop at any time.

Sure, the risks are not zero. But IMO so far the US and NATO have followed the least risky strategy: not getting into the fighting themselves, but helping Ukraine keep Putin at bay and wasting away his resources there.

Well that's not working, Russia hasn't been wasting its resources, they are getting bigger, absorbing 1/5th of Ukraine, and at this rate, another fifth in the next 6 to 12 months. Whose resources are getting depleted in this war? I would say Ukraine and NATO's.

Russia is going to end this war on its terms now. If the goal was to contain Russia, couldn't that have been achieved by abiding by Minsk, or not interfering with the peace treaty that was about to be signed in Istanbul 16 months and 250,000 Ukrainian lives ago?

The Russians would have also accepted a settlement that would have freezed the borders last Fall, after Ukraine made up considerable gains. I am not sure they would now, they probably will demand regime change in Kiev, demilitarization or at the very least complete neutrality, along with recognition of their territorial gains.
oski003
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dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:




That's funny given Putin's diminutive height.






Putin is not trying to join NATO. Yes, Zelensky in high heels is taller than Putin.
BearHunter
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Cal88
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dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:



That's funny given Putin's diminutive height.




This was not about making fun of Zel's height, but of his whole schtick, crashing parties and hanging out 24/7 in his fatigues. This schtick has only ever worked for Fidel Castro and Yasser Arafat.
bearister
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….and Che walked the walk until the CIA had him clipped in Bolivia.



*He got Butched and Sundanced

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Big C
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sycasey said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

movielover said:

Today Joe Biden activated 3,000 reserve troops for deployment as part of Operation Atlantic Resolve.

Previously, Biden increased our troop numbers in Europe from 80,000 to 100,000.

Mission creep continues.
I am not a fan of this move. I fear a Vietnam-like incremental crawl to actual US boots on the ground in Ukraine. I'm all for arming Ukraine, but no US blood should ever be spilled there.

It's still not likely this will happen.

True, but if the war is not contained to Russia-Ukraine, the chances go way up.

I care about Ukrainians. Heck, I even care about the average Rooskie. But by far the worst thing that could happen would be if this war were to spread.

Which is part of the point of aiding Ukraine's fight. It keeps Russia contained there. Again, Russia could stop at any time.

Sure, the risks are not zero. But IMO so far the US and NATO have followed the least risky strategy: not getting into the fighting themselves, but helping Ukraine keep Putin at bay and wasting away his resources there.

I am solidly in favor of our policy so far -- except if (and I don't know) we have encouraged Ukraine to keep fighting when a peace might have been brokered. As long as it has truly been Ukraine's choice to stick it out, I think we've done the right thing, walking the fine line of helping Ukraine, but keeping the war contained.
sycasey
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Big C said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

movielover said:

Today Joe Biden activated 3,000 reserve troops for deployment as part of Operation Atlantic Resolve.

Previously, Biden increased our troop numbers in Europe from 80,000 to 100,000.

Mission creep continues.
I am not a fan of this move. I fear a Vietnam-like incremental crawl to actual US boots on the ground in Ukraine. I'm all for arming Ukraine, but no US blood should ever be spilled there.

It's still not likely this will happen.

True, but if the war is not contained to Russia-Ukraine, the chances go way up.

I care about Ukrainians. Heck, I even care about the average Rooskie. But by far the worst thing that could happen would be if this war were to spread.

Which is part of the point of aiding Ukraine's fight. It keeps Russia contained there. Again, Russia could stop at any time.

Sure, the risks are not zero. But IMO so far the US and NATO have followed the least risky strategy: not getting into the fighting themselves, but helping Ukraine keep Putin at bay and wasting away his resources there.

I am solidly in favor of our policy so far -- except if (and I don't know) we have encouraged Ukraine to keep fighting when a peace might have been brokered. As long as it has truly been Ukraine's choice to stick it out, I think we've done the right thing, walking the fine line of helping Ukraine, but keeping the war contained.

I think it has been Ukraine's choice, though obviously there is disagreement on that (to my bafflement).
bearister
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"As long as it has truly been Ukraine's choice to stick it out…"

In what country has the U.S. ever been successful convincing people to fight to save their country? I think America has pretty much run the table on that like Wyking Jones and Mark Fox.
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movielover
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Cal88 said:

dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:



That's funny given Putin's diminutive height.




This was not about making fun of Zel's height, but of his whole schtick, crashing parties and hanging out 24/7 in his fatigues. This schtick has only ever worked for Fidel Castro and Yasser Arafat.


Scott Ritters recent piece alleges he has at least 5 luxury homes across the world, including Miami, and a stake in an offshore, previously undeclared company. And how Ukraine revived Nazi's.
dimitrig
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movielover said:

Cal88 said:

dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:



That's funny given Putin's diminutive height.




This was not about making fun of Zel's height, but of his whole schtick, crashing parties and hanging out 24/7 in his fatigues. This schtick has only ever worked for Fidel Castro and Yasser Arafat.


Scott Ritters recent piece alleges he has at least 5 luxury homes across the world, including Miami, and a stake in an offshore, previously undeclared company. And how Ukraine revived Nazi's.


"There is no proof that Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy owns a $35 million home in Florida.

The claim originated from a source that appears to be backed by the Russian government."

Link:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/may/02/facebook-posts/no-proof-ukraine-president-zelenskyy-owns-35-milli/

Link:
https://mythdetector.ge/en/does-volodymyr-zelenskyy-own-a-usd-35-million-villa-in-miami/

Cal88
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dimitrig said:

movielover said:

Cal88 said:

dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:



That's funny given Putin's diminutive height.




This was not about making fun of Zel's height, but of his whole schtick, crashing parties and hanging out 24/7 in his fatigues. This schtick has only ever worked for Fidel Castro and Yasser Arafat.


Scott Ritters recent piece alleges he has at least 5 luxury homes across the world, including Miami, and a stake in an offshore, previously undeclared company. And how Ukraine revived Nazi's.


"There is no proof that Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy owns a $35 million home in Florida.

The claim originated from a source that appears to be backed by the Russian government."

Link:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/may/02/facebook-posts/no-proof-ukraine-president-zelenskyy-owns-35-milli/

Link:
https://mythdetector.ge/en/does-volodymyr-zelenskyy-own-a-usd-35-million-villa-in-miami/


Politiifact fact checkers...lol

Pandora has entered the chat:

https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe, and according to Pandora, the most corrupt country in the world:
https://www.axios.com/2021/10/05/pandora-papers-politicians-countries

Quote:

Oct 4, 2021 - World

Countries with highest number of politicians named in the Pandora Paper

The Ukrainian president may have pledged to reform the country's corrupt system of politics, but the Pandora Papers tell a different story.

Driving the news: Ukraine is the country with the highest number of politicians named in the leak of offshore data, which implicates hundreds of people linked to offshore companies including President Volodymyr Zelensky.

Context: Zelensky had campaigned on cleaning up Ukraine's oligarch-dominated system. He'd pushed to set himself apart from politicians like incumbent Petro Poroshenko, who hid offshore assets, the Guardian notes.

  • But the Pandora Papers revealed that Zelensky was involved with a network of offshore companies, which he co-owned with friends and business partners.


Zelensky is arguably the richest comedian of all time, it's between him and Seinfeld. His wealth probably doubled in the war, with tens of billions of dollars in Western aid coming in with no strings attached, and no oversight, by design, as some of that money is also ending up with NATO "businesspeople" like Vindman.

Zelensky and his crony blob in Kiev have syphoned off $400,000,000 from the diesel fuel scheme alone:

Quote:

What also is unknown is that Zelensky has been buying the fuel from Russia, the country with which it, and Washington, are at war, and the Ukrainian president and many in his entourage have been skimming untold millions from the American dollars earmarked for diesel fuel payments. One estimate by analysts from the Central Intelligence Agency put the embezzled funds at $400 million last year, at least; another expert compared the level of corruption in Kiev as approaching that of the Afghan war, "although there will be no professional audit reports emerging from the Ukraine."

"Zelensky's been buying discount diesel from the Russians," one knowledgeable American intelligence official told me. "And who's paying for the gas and oil? We are.

Many government ministries in Kiev have been literally "competing," I was told, to set up front companies for export contracts for weapons and ammunition with private arms dealers around the world, all of which provide kickbacks. Many of those companies are in Poland and Czechia, but others are thought to exist in the Persian Gulf and Israel. "I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are others in places like the Cayman Islands and Panama, and there are lots of Americans involved," an American expert on international trade told me.

The issue of corruption was directly raised with Zelensky in a meeting last January in Kiev with CIA Director William Burns. His message to the Ukrainian president, I was told by an intelligence official with direct knowledge of the meeting, was out of a 1950s mob movie. The senior generals and government officials in Kiev were angry at what they saw as Zelensky's greed, so Burns told the Ukrainian president, because "he was taking a larger share of the skim money than was going to the generals."
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/trading-with-the-enemy


sycasey
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Ah, Seymour Hersh with unnamed sources again.
movielover
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So was Vindman being paid for his prior anti-Trump moves? Don't forget, he has a brother with some obscure (one-man band) 'consulting" business related to Russia?

bearister
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Russian Forces 'Scrambling' To Keep Crimea Control: Kyiv Envoy


https://www.newsweek.com/russian-forces-scrambling-keep-crimea-control-tamila-tasheva-ukraine-1812984
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dimitrig
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Cal88 said:

dimitrig said:

movielover said:

Cal88 said:

dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:



That's funny given Putin's diminutive height.




This was not about making fun of Zel's height, but of his whole schtick, crashing parties and hanging out 24/7 in his fatigues. This schtick has only ever worked for Fidel Castro and Yasser Arafat.


Scott Ritters recent piece alleges he has at least 5 luxury homes across the world, including Miami, and a stake in an offshore, previously undeclared company. And how Ukraine revived Nazi's.


"There is no proof that Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy owns a $35 million home in Florida.

The claim originated from a source that appears to be backed by the Russian government."

Link:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/may/02/facebook-posts/no-proof-ukraine-president-zelenskyy-owns-35-milli/

Link:
https://mythdetector.ge/en/does-volodymyr-zelenskyy-own-a-usd-35-million-villa-in-miami/


Politiifact fact checkers...lol

Pandora has entered the chat:

https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe, and according to Pandora, the most corrupt country in the world:
https://www.axios.com/2021/10/05/pandora-papers-politicians-countries

Quote:

Oct 4, 2021 - World

Countries with highest number of politicians named in the Pandora Paper

The Ukrainian president may have pledged to reform the country's corrupt system of politics, but the Pandora Papers tell a different story.

Driving the news: Ukraine is the country with the highest number of politicians named in the leak of offshore data, which implicates hundreds of people linked to offshore companies including President Volodymyr Zelensky.

Context: Zelensky had campaigned on cleaning up Ukraine's oligarch-dominated system. He'd pushed to set himself apart from politicians like incumbent Petro Poroshenko, who hid offshore assets, the Guardian notes.

  • But the Pandora Papers revealed that Zelensky was involved with a network of offshore companies, which he co-owned with friends and business partners.


Zelensky is arguably the richest comedian of all time, it's between him and Seinfeld. His wealth probably doubled in the war, with tens of billions of dollars in Western aid coming in with no strings attached, and no oversight, by design, as some of that money is also ending up with NATO "businesspeople" like Vindman.

Zelensky and his crony blob in Kiev have syphoned off $400,000,000 from the diesel fuel scheme alone:

Quote:

What also is unknown is that Zelensky has been buying the fuel from Russia, the country with which it, and Washington, are at war, and the Ukrainian president and many in his entourage have been skimming untold millions from the American dollars earmarked for diesel fuel payments. One estimate by analysts from the Central Intelligence Agency put the embezzled funds at $400 million last year, at least; another expert compared the level of corruption in Kiev as approaching that of the Afghan war, "although there will be no professional audit reports emerging from the Ukraine."

"Zelensky's been buying discount diesel from the Russians," one knowledgeable American intelligence official told me. "And who's paying for the gas and oil? We are.

Many government ministries in Kiev have been literally "competing," I was told, to set up front companies for export contracts for weapons and ammunition with private arms dealers around the world, all of which provide kickbacks. Many of those companies are in Poland and Czechia, but others are thought to exist in the Persian Gulf and Israel. "I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are others in places like the Cayman Islands and Panama, and there are lots of Americans involved," an American expert on international trade told me.

The issue of corruption was directly raised with Zelensky in a meeting last January in Kiev with CIA Director William Burns. His message to the Ukrainian president, I was told by an intelligence official with direct knowledge of the meeting, was out of a 1950s mob movie. The senior generals and government officials in Kiev were angry at what they saw as Zelensky's greed, so Burns told the Ukrainian president, because "he was taking a larger share of the skim money than was going to the generals."
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/trading-with-the-enemy





Did you read the link I posted?

"The Pandora Papers don't reveal how much money the offshore companies held, nor were there any mentions of a $35 million home in Florida, private planes or Zelenskyy having a monthly income of $11 million. However, the documents did reveal some of his assets included three offshore companies, property and cars.

An internet search of property records in Florida yielded no results for anything connected to Zelenskyy or the offshore companies named in the Pandora Papers. We did not find Zelenskyy's name on any deed or mortgage records."
movielover
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Don't forget folks - OUR UNIPARTY CONGRESS voted for NO oversight on Ukrainian military spending.

Those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing.
Cal88
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bearister said:

Russian Forces 'Scrambling' To Keep Crimea Control: Kyiv Envoy


https://www.newsweek.com/russian-forces-scrambling-keep-crimea-control-tamila-tasheva-ukraine-1812984

Ukraine is getting crushed this month, lost over 26,000 troops since the start of the "counteroffensive" 5 weeks ago, also losing about a quarter of the NATO arsenal it has been hoarding since winter. They've been sending column after column south in an attempt to make any significant gain and reach the first line of defense, to no avail, the greyzone is being littered with burned up Bradleys and Leopards.

That's the reason why you're not hearing much about the actual conduct of the Ukraine war these days, other than editorials by Kyiv hipsters like Tamila here, the author of that article above, who claims that the Russians really are panicking and are about to lose Crimea.


Tamila

Tamila is a 30-something graphic artist, probably pulling a six figure salary from a NATO or Soros-financed NGO. Tamila has been named President of Crimea by authorities in Kyiv.

Tamila is stating unequivocally in Newsweek Magazine that Ukraine is going to "liberate" Crimea, and after Crimea is liberated, ethnic Russians will be expelled from Crimea. I'm not sure how she is going to manage to liberate Crimea, maybe she is going to do a major sit-in in Kyiv, or even hold her breath until it is done, because the plan to send columns of Leopard 2s and Bradleys to liberate Crimea hasn't worked out well so far.
Cal88
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dimitrig said:




Did you read the link I posted?

"The Pandora Papers don't reveal how much money the offshore companies held, nor were there any mentions of a $35 million home in Florida, private planes or Zelenskyy having a monthly income of $11 million. However, the documents did reveal some of his assets included three offshore companies, property and cars.

An internet search of property records in Florida yielded no results for anything connected to Zelenskyy or the offshore companies named in the Pandora Papers. We did not find Zelenskyy's name on any deed or mortgage records."



Zelenskyyy's name is not on the official records - OK, then, that settles it.
bearister
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Analysis: Ukraine rolls back 6 months of Russian gains in 5 weeks | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/12/analysis-ukraine-rolls-back-6-months-of-russian-gains-in-5-weeks

Russian forces have captured a total of 282 square kilometers in the entire theater since January 1. In five weeks, Ukrainian forces have liberated nearly the same amount of territory that Russian forces captured in over six months," the ISW said.

…"A powerful Ukrainian assault forced Russia's 83rd Airborne Assault Brigade to retreat on foot without an evacuation plan, only to be given 'illegally issued orders' to go right back to the front, the Russian troops complained in a video appeal," Roslin wrote.

"Russian draftees in another unit at Klishchiivka the 142nd Regiment also refused to fight after suffering heavy losses under Ukrainian fire while being sent into combat without ammunition, their relatives said in an appeal. Some of the refuseniks were reportedly being held in a pit."

The speed with which Putin forgave Wagner suggested to many observers that the president needed the mercenaries as effective fighters more than he needed to make examples of them
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dimitrig
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Cal88 said:

dimitrig said:




Did you read the link I posted?

"The Pandora Papers don't reveal how much money the offshore companies held, nor were there any mentions of a $35 million home in Florida, private planes or Zelenskyy having a monthly income of $11 million. However, the documents did reveal some of his assets included three offshore companies, property and cars.

An internet search of property records in Florida yielded no results for anything connected to Zelenskyy or the offshore companies named in the Pandora Papers. We did not find Zelenskyy's name on any deed or mortgage records."



Zelenskyyy's name is not on the official records - OK, then, that settles it.


If someone wants to make a claim then they need to prove their claim.

Where is the proof?

Eastern Oregon Bear
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dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:

dimitrig said:




Did you read the link I posted?

"The Pandora Papers don't reveal how much money the offshore companies held, nor were there any mentions of a $35 million home in Florida, private planes or Zelenskyy having a monthly income of $11 million. However, the documents did reveal some of his assets included three offshore companies, property and cars.

An internet search of property records in Florida yielded no results for anything connected to Zelenskyy or the offshore companies named in the Pandora Papers. We did not find Zelenskyy's name on any deed or mortgage records."



Zelenskyyy's name is not on the official records - OK, then, that settles it.


If someone wants to make a claim then they need to prove their claim.

Where is the proof?
You're talking to people that think stupid memes and random tweets are proof.
OdontoBear66
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sycasey said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

movielover said:

Today Joe Biden activated 3,000 reserve troops for deployment as part of Operation Atlantic Resolve.

Previously, Biden increased our troop numbers in Europe from 80,000 to 100,000.

Mission creep continues.
I am not a fan of this move. I fear a Vietnam-like incremental crawl to actual US boots on the ground in Ukraine. I'm all for arming Ukraine, but no US blood should ever be spilled there.

It's still not likely this will happen.

True, but if the war is not contained to Russia-Ukraine, the chances go way up.

I care about Ukrainians. Heck, I even care about the average Rooskie. But by far the worst thing that could happen would be if this war were to spread.

Which is part of the point of aiding Ukraine's fight. It keeps Russia contained there. Again, Russia could stop at any time.

Sure, the risks are not zero. But IMO so far the US and NATO have followed the least risky strategy: not getting into the fighting themselves, but helping Ukraine keep Putin at bay and wasting away his resources there.
Couldn't agree more sycasey. Let Russia use of resources and personel, while we supply resistance in material.
movielover
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Business Insider: "Nearly a third of the Bradley armored vehicles the US provided Ukraine may have already been lost or damaged"

Charles R. Davis Jul 15, 2023, 3:48 PM ET

"The US has provided Ukraine with at least 100 Bradley armored personnel carriers.

Open source data indicates that 34 of them have now been abandoned, damaged, or destroyed.

Most losses appear to have occurred in the early days of Ukraine's counteroffensive."

"Oryx, an open-source military research group, reports that 34 Bradleys have now been visually confirmed as having been abandoned, damaged, or destroyed. "

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-nearly-third-of-bradley-armored-vehicles-lost-or-damaged-2023-7
Cal88
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dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:

dimitrig said:




Did you read the link I posted?

"The Pandora Papers don't reveal how much money the offshore companies held, nor were there any mentions of a $35 million home in Florida, private planes or Zelenskyy having a monthly income of $11 million. However, the documents did reveal some of his assets included three offshore companies, property and cars.

An internet search of property records in Florida yielded no results for anything connected to Zelenskyy or the offshore companies named in the Pandora Papers. We did not find Zelenskyy's name on any deed or mortgage records."



Zelenskyyy's name is not on the official records - OK, then, that settles it.


If someone wants to make a claim then they need to prove their claim.

Where is the proof?


His other high end real estate holdings, including those in London, Tuscany and Tel Aviv have been easier to uncover, He was a bit more thorough about covering up his more recent Miami villa purchase than about his Tuscany seaside villa.

Report: Ukrainian Presidential Front-Runner Failed To Declare 15-Room Italian Villa
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-presidential-front-runner-did-not-declare-a-15-room-italian-villa-ukrainian-journalists-discover/29848105.html

MSM and state-run US/NATO media were a lot less protective of Zelensky before the culmination of their Ukraine operation into an open war against Russia, a source like Radio Free Europe would never publish that kind of article today.

Cal88
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OdontoBear66 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

movielover said:

Today Joe Biden activated 3,000 reserve troops for deployment as part of Operation Atlantic Resolve.

Previously, Biden increased our troop numbers in Europe from 80,000 to 100,000.

Mission creep continues.
I am not a fan of this move. I fear a Vietnam-like incremental crawl to actual US boots on the ground in Ukraine. I'm all for arming Ukraine, but no US blood should ever be spilled there.

It's still not likely this will happen.

True, but if the war is not contained to Russia-Ukraine, the chances go way up.

I care about Ukrainians. Heck, I even care about the average Rooskie. But by far the worst thing that could happen would be if this war were to spread.

Which is part of the point of aiding Ukraine's fight. It keeps Russia contained there. Again, Russia could stop at any time.

Sure, the risks are not zero. But IMO so far the US and NATO have followed the least risky strategy: not getting into the fighting themselves, but helping Ukraine keep Putin at bay and wasting away his resources there.
Couldn't agree more sycasey. Let Russia use of resources and personel, while we supply resistance in material.

That was the vision Zbignew Brzezinski and George Soros had for Ukraine, to use local Slav manpower along with western capital in order to weaken Russia.

One of the main issues with this approach is that you are literally obliterating Ukraine as a country and a people in this attempt, which is being presented to a distant and somewhat naive western audience as support for Ukraine, it's a more subtle perversion of the Vietnam narrative of having to bomb a village to save it, as well as the Iraq invasion where millions were killed, the county destroyed under the pretext of saving it from the designated Hitler-like figure.

Ukrainians are suffering far greater casualties and destruction facing a much stronger foe. Why is that part of the calculus being ignored?

The most stupid aspect of this geopolitical ploy is that Russia is not being weakened, it is getting stronger, winning the war with a limited military engagement. They have been conducting this war without even switching to a war economy footing, and will be reaping long-term economic and diplomatic benefits from it, including the substantial growth of their domestic industries (auto, trucks, civil aviation, consumer products heavy industry, arms industry etc).
movielover
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Let alone closer ties with Iran, China and India, and BRICS moves forward.

Tangentially, Europe was weakened in the short term with NS being bombed by the US and some industry leaving Germany. Germany and France have growing domestic turmoil.
Unit2Sucks
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I get why Russian shills want the US to prevent Ukraine from defending itself, but seeing it from useful idiots is frustrating.




Fortunately, in the real world, Russia isn't actually having anywhere close to the success that Putin would have us believe.

A prominent Russian commander of the VDV was recently dismissed. Some background here, including other info that contradicts the years of Russian firehose. Expect some cherry picking response from the usual ignored suspects following this post. Yes, ISW neocon blah blah blah. ISW has been proven correct time and time again with the information they are providing on this war.



While having US air force resources would certainly help Ukraine in its defense efforts, they are doing their best with drones. If nothing else, this war will cause a monumental shift in military tactics and procurement. Ukraine has proven through incredibly creativity (and desperation) that you don't need the latest and greatest large weapons to make a difference. We started this war by training Ukraine on how to use Western military equipment and I suspect that when this war ends they will be training us.

Definitely a question as to whether drones + GMLRS is as effective as F35/stormbreakers. We know it would be a hell of a lot cheaper.



The DOD is should be working overtime to scrutinize future military procurement and figuring out how to catch up with Mavic and China generally on drone technology. We simply can't be caught behind here.

We are also getting a lot of field-testing for our equipment that will benefit our readiness moving forward. See below re Bradleys.



Finally, we're going to be seeing a lot of evidence of the effectiveness of modern cluster munitions. Russia was widely reported to have used cluster munitions early in the war against civilians, but for some reason none of the Putin supporters pretending to have a problem with cluster munitions seemed to mind that.


movielover
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We and NATO have the largest militaries and gut-busting budgets in the world and our 44 four star Military leaders have been shown severely lacking.

1. Ran out of artillery
2. Have no surge capacity
3. In a war, but not on war footing / urgency
4. After years of bashing the Military and masculine men, recruitment is down (not hitting targets)
5. Improper training: gender / diversity issues > basic Military readiness (source: Colonel McGregor)
6. Low morale (see #6)
7. We spent eight years setting up this war, and Russia is cleaning our clocks and Ukraine will lose 20% of its territories, and more the longer this drags out
8. Ukraine is wrecked and won't recover for decades. Single women of child-bearing age who want a family will have to leave
9. 400K KIA and likely 600K plus injured in our proxy war is far too costly for "field testing" equipment and Military strategies

This is why you don't have Anthony Blinken, Jake Sullivan, the MICC and Sleepy Joe Biden start proxy wars with an industrial power. Russia isn't a goat hearding nation.
Cal88
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Quick review of the last edition of U2S firehose of projections, wishful thinking and unintentionally clumsy Ukraine war coverage:

- a pundit named "der Kraut", this guy below, backed by his 6-pack of TPs, dismisses Mearsheimer and Chomsky as "dimwits":



- you can absolutely count on these Forever War scumbag profiteers who have lied through their teeth for decades on Iraq and other neocon campaigns to give you a solid, honest coverage of the Ukraine war;


Neoconservatism and the Institute for the Study of War
The think-tank was behind Iraq's weapons of mass destruction lie and is an ideological component of the US military-industrial complex
https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/opinion/2022-10-27-tristen-taylor-neoconservatism-and-the-institute-for-the-study-of-war/

- that the original crew inside this Bradley somehow survived the impact of the shell that penetrated its hull like a hot knife through butter, I guess the shell must have stopped midair inside the cabin and simply given up...


And in the U2S projection dept:
The Russians have been widely using cluster ammunition targeting civilians.

Reality:
The Kiev regime forces have been shelling many Donbass cities, especially Donetsk, the largest one, with the most insidious type of cluster ammunition, with the "butterfly" mines that look like toys or organic matter and are designed to blow up when they are picked up:



Human Rights Watch
Ukraine: Widespread Use of Cluster Munitions
Ukraine Government Responsible for Cluster Attacks on Donetsk

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
Quote:

Ukrainian government forces used cluster munitions in populated areas in Donetsk city in early October 2014, Human Rights Watch said today. The use of cluster munitions in populated areas violates the laws of war due to the indiscriminate nature of the weapon and may amount to war crimes.

During a week-long investigation in eastern Ukraine, Human Rights Watch documented widespread use of cluster munitions in fighting between government forces and pro-Russian rebels in more than a dozen urban and rural locations. While it was not possible to conclusively determine responsibility for many of the attacks, the evidence points to Ukrainian government forces' responsibility for several cluster munition attacks on Donetsk. An employee of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) was killed on October 2 in an attack on Donetsk that included use of cluster munition rockets.


-U2S:
Ukraine's army is viewed as a liberator by locals in the Donbass

Reality:
The Kiev regime forces in the Donbass have been operating as hostile occupation forces since 2014, when they were sent to quash the local rebellion against the Maidan Coup and the burning alive of dozens of unarmed russophone protestors in Odessa in May 2014. The Kiev regime sent in their tanks and air force to bomb the locals into submission, using tools like cluster bombs. Ukrainain president Poroshenko was boasting about how under his watch Donbass children are growing up in bomb shelters while the kids in Kiev go to school unmolested.

Here's one very recent event where a Ukrainian army patrol in an armored vehicle (marked with the nazi Balkenkreuz insignia no less) shoots up and kills a family travelling in a small civilian passenger car, then proceeds to hide the evidence:

Quote:

(Graphic, 18+ NSFW!)

Let me explain what you are seeing in this video. A Russian reconnaissance drone captures a car with white flags signaling they are civilians, (civilians!) are attempting to travel perhaps to leave. Ukrainian troops set up an ambush and open fire on the civilian vehicle killing those inside.

There is no visible threat from the civilians, it appears in this video that the Armed Forces of Ukraine openly murdered a car full of civilians, there is no other way to paint this other than what it is... I often tend to have pity on the majority of Ukraine forces but this is absolutely inexcusable and disgusting in the highest regard.



A soldier trying to revive a dying kid they just shot up is told to cut it out by his pals:


Slava Ukraini, hail the heroes of Ukraine, the liberators of the Donbass - one carful at a time.


bearister
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Does Al Jazeera provide accurate reporting on the war? I know it is it's position that both sides are untrustworthy with regard to casualties data.
Is Al Jazeera reporting Putin losing grip on Crimea? If true, that would be an indicator of some kind….because I'm thinking that wasn't on the pre invasion wish list.
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Cal88
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bearister said:

Does Al Jazeera provide accurate reporting on the war? I know it is it's position that both sides are untrustworthy with regard to casualties data.
Is Al Jazeera reporting Putin losing grip on Crimea? If true, that would be an indicator of some kind….because I'm thinking that wasn't on the pre invasion wish list.

Al Jazeera's coverage of the Ukraine war hasn't been that different from that of, say, the BBC, though looking at their current Ukraine war page, they might not have as many articles as the Guardian or the WaPo that are straight up Ukrainian scripted propaganda.

Al Jazeera is a Qatari news outlet. Qatar is one of the most NATO-aligned gulf sheikdom, and one of the main local players in the Syrian campaign, where they were competing with Iran for a gas pipeline project to Europe through Syria. Syria favoring the Iran gas pipeline was one of the main reasons the Qataris funded the Syrian rebels in the early 2010s. Qatar doesn't have much oil but they have the largest gas reserves in the world behind Russia, along with Iran.
movielover
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Cal alum Dr. Michael Savage hosting Colonel Douglass McGregor. Russia moving towards Karkov?

bearister
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Cal88 said:

bearister said:

Does Al Jazeera provide accurate reporting on the war? I know it is it's position that both sides are untrustworthy with regard to casualties data.
Is Al Jazeera reporting Putin losing grip on Crimea? If true, that would be an indicator of some kind….because I'm thinking that wasn't on the pre invasion wish list.

Al Jazeera's coverage of the Ukraine war hasn't been that different from that of, say, the BBC, though looking at their current Ukraine war page, they might not have as many articles as the Guardian or the WaPo that are straight up Ukrainian scripted propaganda.

Al Jazeera is a Qatari news outlet. Qatar is one of the most NATO-aligned gulf sheikdom, and one of the main local players in the Syrian campaign, where they were competing with Iran for a gas pipeline project to Europe through Syria. Syria favoring the Iran gas pipeline was one of the main reasons the Qataris funded the Syrian rebels in the early 2010s. Qatar doesn't have much oil but they have the largest gas reserves in the world behind Russia, along with Iran.



I'm sure you have listed them before but what do you consider the most unbiased and accurate sources of information regarding the war in the Ukraine?
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