The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

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BearGoggles
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In reply to movielover • 3:49p, 2/9/25
movielover said:
1. Don't mass bomb the tunnels and buildings, making everything unrecognizable and giving Hamas limitless places to hide
2. Send in Special Ops

TM = Colonel Douglass McGregor
That is not a strategy that will result in victory and does not addresses the fact that the hamas fighters are/were embedded with civilians in most buildings, and had massive weapons stored in civilian locations. You're asking Israel to send its soldiers on a suicide mission breaching and then chasing hamas fighters through miles of tunnels. No country would do that.

And Hamas was hiding in tunnels - under buildings. Again, no army would attempt a direct frontal attack with special forces on highly defended tunnel networks. Your suggestions are not serious and if they are, you're completely unrealistic.




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movielover
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In reply to BearGoggles • 3:58p, 2/9/25
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movielover
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10:51p, 2/9/25
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movielover
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2:33a, 2/10/25
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cbbass1
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In reply to BearGoggles • 3:48a, 2/11/25
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
AunBear89 said:
Yay! This means the Russians can kill even more innocent people. But you guys are against the war, right. This cheerleading post from Beto is just for information, right? Your not trying to flex and show how smart the team you support is and how stupid the other side is?


Make sure you find some gory pictures of the "targets" (or, "civilians") mangled beyond recognition! That's always good for moral and whipping up the masses - pictures of the dead filthy enemies.

The percentage of civilian deaths in this war is around 1%-2%. Contrast with Israel's war on Palestine where it's well above 90%.

The military deaths in Ukraine are still highly unfortunate, because at this stage most of their soldiers don't want to be there, they have been forcefully conscripted by the Kiev regime, which is determined to carry out NATO's war To The Last Ukrainian.
90%? LMAO. You just make up crap. Not even Hamas has claimed this.


60% of the Gazans bombed to death were women, children and men over 65. You get to 90% by assuming that 1 in 4 men under 65 killed were combattants, a reasonable number given the indiscriminate nature and massive scale of the carpet bombing, pulverizing an area the size of Manhattan with the equivalent of 4 Hiroshima bombs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-toll-40-higher-than-official-number-lancet-study-finds

You're the guy that claimed that Israel did not carpet bomb Gaza, that that one hospital was bombed because it was a secret Hamas base with a tunnel network and so forth. In other words, you have zero credibility on that subject.
Your assumptions are not reasonable, particularly when "children' and men over 65 are often combatants. Beyond that, your assumption of 1-4 is wrong (not even Hamas has claimed that) and it is just a lie to claim that carpet bombing took place.

And it has been proven that Hamas was using hospitals for military purposes. Again, that is really beyond dispute and you are just gaslighting.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html

Is it really your position that Hamas does not use civilians as human shields?
Proved? Nothing that I've seen "proved" anything of the sort.

And yes -- MY position is that Hamas does NOT use civilians as human shields. Human shields only "work" if the oppressor has sufficient decency / humanity to avoid killing civilians. But clearly, the IDF has no qualms about shooting children in the head, and dropping 2000 lb "bunker buster" bombs on refugee camps.

For the most part, Hamas fighters are in the tunnels; civilians are above ground. The IDF is killing unarmed civilians intentionally.

They tried fighting Hamas in the tunnels, and they got their a**es handed to them.
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Cal88
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In reply to cbbass1 • 9:16a, 2/11/25
cbbass1 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
AunBear89 said:
Yay! This means the Russians can kill even more innocent people. But you guys are against the war, right. This cheerleading post from Beto is just for information, right? Your not trying to flex and show how smart the team you support is and how stupid the other side is?


Make sure you find some gory pictures of the "targets" (or, "civilians") mangled beyond recognition! That's always good for moral and whipping up the masses - pictures of the dead filthy enemies.

The percentage of civilian deaths in this war is around 1%-2%. Contrast with Israel's war on Palestine where it's well above 90%.

The military deaths in Ukraine are still highly unfortunate, because at this stage most of their soldiers don't want to be there, they have been forcefully conscripted by the Kiev regime, which is determined to carry out NATO's war To The Last Ukrainian.
90%? LMAO. You just make up crap. Not even Hamas has claimed this.


60% of the Gazans bombed to death were women, children and men over 65. You get to 90% by assuming that 1 in 4 men under 65 killed were combattants, a reasonable number given the indiscriminate nature and massive scale of the carpet bombing, pulverizing an area the size of Manhattan with the equivalent of 4 Hiroshima bombs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-toll-40-higher-than-official-number-lancet-study-finds

You're the guy that claimed that Israel did not carpet bomb Gaza, that that one hospital was bombed because it was a secret Hamas base with a tunnel network and so forth. In other words, you have zero credibility on that subject.
Your assumptions are not reasonable, particularly when "children' and men over 65 are often combatants. Beyond that, your assumption of 1-4 is wrong (not even Hamas has claimed that) and it is just a lie to claim that carpet bombing took place.

And it has been proven that Hamas was using hospitals for military purposes. Again, that is really beyond dispute and you are just gaslighting.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html

Is it really your position that Hamas does not use civilians as human shields?
Proved? Nothing that I've seen "proved" anything of the sort.

And yes -- MY position is that Hamas does NOT use civilians as human shields. Human shields only "work" if the oppressor has sufficient decency / humanity to avoid killing civilians. But clearly, the IDF has no qualms about shooting children in the head, and dropping 2000 lb "bunker buster" bombs on refugee camps.

For the most part, Hamas fighters are in the tunnels; civilians are above ground. The IDF is killing unarmed civilians intentionally.

They tried fighting Hamas in the tunnels, and they got their a**es handed to them.

Ironically it is the Israelis who mke extensive use of human shields, sending Palestinian kids into the tunnels or marching them in front of their troops, as sen in the end of this short video where Israeli soldiers are using a 7 year old Palestinian kid as a human shield:





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BearGoggles
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In reply to cbbass1 • 10:05a, 2/11/25
cbbass1 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
AunBear89 said:
Yay! This means the Russians can kill even more innocent people. But you guys are against the war, right. This cheerleading post from Beto is just for information, right? Your not trying to flex and show how smart the team you support is and how stupid the other side is?


Make sure you find some gory pictures of the "targets" (or, "civilians") mangled beyond recognition! That's always good for moral and whipping up the masses - pictures of the dead filthy enemies.

The percentage of civilian deaths in this war is around 1%-2%. Contrast with Israel's war on Palestine where it's well above 90%.

The military deaths in Ukraine are still highly unfortunate, because at this stage most of their soldiers don't want to be there, they have been forcefully conscripted by the Kiev regime, which is determined to carry out NATO's war To The Last Ukrainian.
90%? LMAO. You just make up crap. Not even Hamas has claimed this.


60% of the Gazans bombed to death were women, children and men over 65. You get to 90% by assuming that 1 in 4 men under 65 killed were combattants, a reasonable number given the indiscriminate nature and massive scale of the carpet bombing, pulverizing an area the size of Manhattan with the equivalent of 4 Hiroshima bombs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-toll-40-higher-than-official-number-lancet-study-finds

You're the guy that claimed that Israel did not carpet bomb Gaza, that that one hospital was bombed because it was a secret Hamas base with a tunnel network and so forth. In other words, you have zero credibility on that subject.
Your assumptions are not reasonable, particularly when "children' and men over 65 are often combatants. Beyond that, your assumption of 1-4 is wrong (not even Hamas has claimed that) and it is just a lie to claim that carpet bombing took place.

And it has been proven that Hamas was using hospitals for military purposes. Again, that is really beyond dispute and you are just gaslighting.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html

Is it really your position that Hamas does not use civilians as human shields?
Proved? Nothing that I've seen "proved" anything of the sort.

And yes -- MY position is that Hamas does NOT use civilians as human shields. Human shields only "work" if the oppressor has sufficient decency / humanity to avoid killing civilians. But clearly, the IDF has no qualms about shooting children in the head, and dropping 2000 lb "bunker buster" bombs on refugee camps.

For the most part, Hamas fighters are in the tunnels; civilians are above ground. The IDF is killing unarmed civilians intentionally.

They tried fighting Hamas in the tunnels, and they got their a**es handed to them.
This should be framed. Here are your absurd arguments:

Claim 1:

  • You admit Hamas intentionally hides in military tunnels/bunkers beneath civilian buildings.
  • You then claim that Hamas is not using civilians as human shields despite the fact it is literally intentionally hiding underneath them. Pure genius.

Claim 2:

  • You claim, without evidence, that Israel got their butts handed to them fighting in tunnels. To my knowledge, that has not been Israel's initial fighting tactic and there no reliable reports/evidence of Israel sustaining massive losses in tunnel warfare. Approximately 405 Israeli soldiers have been killed in the entire Gaza campaign (not including those killed on 10/7). Not exactly a butt kicking.
  • Having claimed (without evidence) Israel lost in its tunnel warfare efforts, you then assert that Israel should use only that tactic to prevent civilian deaths (i.e., more tunnel warfare, not bombing). No army would do that when there are other options.
  • We do agree tunnel warfare against well prepared Hamas' defenses without first bombing would be difficult. That is exactly why Israel didn't attempt this and why bombing was necessary.
  • You also ignore the fact that Israel gave advanced warning of its bombing and told civilians to leave. That is more than is required under the law/standards of war and certainly more warning than Hamas has ever given prior to its terror attacks. The 10/7 victims would have loved to been warned.

In terms of Hamas using hospitals, homes, schools and UN facilities for military purposes, that is a proven fact that is beyond dispute. I posted two of the many available links. Hamas fighters have been killed in these locations. There was a shooting battle in and around the Al-Shifa hospital compound. You're just gaslighting at this point. And again, you admit Hamas has tunnels under all of these types of locations.

Your defending Hamas' tactics is hurting Palestinians.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to Cal88 • 10:06a, 2/11/25
Cal88 said:
cbbass1 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
AunBear89 said:
Yay! This means the Russians can kill even more innocent people. But you guys are against the war, right. This cheerleading post from Beto is just for information, right? Your not trying to flex and show how smart the team you support is and how stupid the other side is?


Make sure you find some gory pictures of the "targets" (or, "civilians") mangled beyond recognition! That's always good for moral and whipping up the masses - pictures of the dead filthy enemies.

The percentage of civilian deaths in this war is around 1%-2%. Contrast with Israel's war on Palestine where it's well above 90%.

The military deaths in Ukraine are still highly unfortunate, because at this stage most of their soldiers don't want to be there, they have been forcefully conscripted by the Kiev regime, which is determined to carry out NATO's war To The Last Ukrainian.
90%? LMAO. You just make up crap. Not even Hamas has claimed this.


60% of the Gazans bombed to death were women, children and men over 65. You get to 90% by assuming that 1 in 4 men under 65 killed were combattants, a reasonable number given the indiscriminate nature and massive scale of the carpet bombing, pulverizing an area the size of Manhattan with the equivalent of 4 Hiroshima bombs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-toll-40-higher-than-official-number-lancet-study-finds

You're the guy that claimed that Israel did not carpet bomb Gaza, that that one hospital was bombed because it was a secret Hamas base with a tunnel network and so forth. In other words, you have zero credibility on that subject.
Your assumptions are not reasonable, particularly when "children' and men over 65 are often combatants. Beyond that, your assumption of 1-4 is wrong (not even Hamas has claimed that) and it is just a lie to claim that carpet bombing took place.

And it has been proven that Hamas was using hospitals for military purposes. Again, that is really beyond dispute and you are just gaslighting.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html

Is it really your position that Hamas does not use civilians as human shields?
Proved? Nothing that I've seen "proved" anything of the sort.

And yes -- MY position is that Hamas does NOT use civilians as human shields. Human shields only "work" if the oppressor has sufficient decency / humanity to avoid killing civilians. But clearly, the IDF has no qualms about shooting children in the head, and dropping 2000 lb "bunker buster" bombs on refugee camps.

For the most part, Hamas fighters are in the tunnels; civilians are above ground. The IDF is killing unarmed civilians intentionally.

They tried fighting Hamas in the tunnels, and they got their a**es handed to them.

Ironically it is the Israelis who mke extensive use of human shields, sending Palestinian kids into the tunnels or marching them in front of their troops, as sen in the end of this short video where Israeli soldiers are using a 7 year old Palestinian kid as a human shield:





So you agree that using human shields is bad. Would it be had if Hamas did it? Yes or no question for you.
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movielover
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In reply to Cal88 • 10:30a, 2/11/25
Where is the Israel / Hamas thread?
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Cal88
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In reply to BearGoggles • 10:31a, 2/11/25
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
cbbass1 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
AunBear89 said:
Yay! This means the Russians can kill even more innocent people. But you guys are against the war, right. This cheerleading post from Beto is just for information, right? Your not trying to flex and show how smart the team you support is and how stupid the other side is?


Make sure you find some gory pictures of the "targets" (or, "civilians") mangled beyond recognition! That's always good for moral and whipping up the masses - pictures of the dead filthy enemies.

The percentage of civilian deaths in this war is around 1%-2%. Contrast with Israel's war on Palestine where it's well above 90%.

The military deaths in Ukraine are still highly unfortunate, because at this stage most of their soldiers don't want to be there, they have been forcefully conscripted by the Kiev regime, which is determined to carry out NATO's war To The Last Ukrainian.
90%? LMAO. You just make up crap. Not even Hamas has claimed this.


60% of the Gazans bombed to death were women, children and men over 65. You get to 90% by assuming that 1 in 4 men under 65 killed were combattants, a reasonable number given the indiscriminate nature and massive scale of the carpet bombing, pulverizing an area the size of Manhattan with the equivalent of 4 Hiroshima bombs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-toll-40-higher-than-official-number-lancet-study-finds

You're the guy that claimed that Israel did not carpet bomb Gaza, that that one hospital was bombed because it was a secret Hamas base with a tunnel network and so forth. In other words, you have zero credibility on that subject.
Your assumptions are not reasonable, particularly when "children' and men over 65 are often combatants. Beyond that, your assumption of 1-4 is wrong (not even Hamas has claimed that) and it is just a lie to claim that carpet bombing took place.

And it has been proven that Hamas was using hospitals for military purposes. Again, that is really beyond dispute and you are just gaslighting.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html

Is it really your position that Hamas does not use civilians as human shields?
Proved? Nothing that I've seen "proved" anything of the sort.

And yes -- MY position is that Hamas does NOT use civilians as human shields. Human shields only "work" if the oppressor has sufficient decency / humanity to avoid killing civilians. But clearly, the IDF has no qualms about shooting children in the head, and dropping 2000 lb "bunker buster" bombs on refugee camps.

For the most part, Hamas fighters are in the tunnels; civilians are above ground. The IDF is killing unarmed civilians intentionally.

They tried fighting Hamas in the tunnels, and they got their a**es handed to them.

Ironically it is the Israelis who mke extensive use of human shields, sending Palestinian kids into the tunnels or marching them in front of their troops, as sen in the end of this short video where Israeli soldiers are using a 7 year old Palestinian kid as a human shield:





So you agree that using human shields is bad. Would it be had if Hamas did it? Yes or no question for you.

Hamas doesn't use human shields if only because the Israelis have shown time and again that they simply DGAF about civilians and are willing to kill 100+ civilians with zero remorse for the mere chance of killing one Hamas fighter, as shown by a recent article from Israeli news outlet 972:

"A new investigation by +972 reveals that Israel had so little idea where Hamas fighters were in Gaza it permitted collateral damage in 'triple digits' ie Israel killed 100s of Palestinian civilians in the hope of targeting a single Hamas commander. The US knew and approved of this policy.

On many occasions, Israel used 2,000lb US bombs to carpet bomb residential areas, killing huge numbers of civilians, when, so it later emerged, no Hamas commander was actually present. Israel killed its own hostages during these strikes.

The investigation also finds that Israel used chemical warfare on the tunnels again in strikes known to have killed Israeli hostages. US bunker-buster bombs produced carbon monoxide as a byproduct that killed anyone underground, even hundreds of meters from the strike site.

More here: https://972mag.com/tunnels-hamas-lethal-gas-bombs-gaza/…
"

Furthermore, most of the infantry fighting in Gaza was done in and around tunnels in the ruins of heavily bombed out areas and empty lots with plant cover. The Israelis took some heavy losses in those incursions and thus limited their war campaign to reveng-fueled heavy carpet bombing of remaining urban areas and refugee tent encampments, which is why they haven't made that big of a dent into the Palestinian fighter ranks, in relation to the tens of thousands of carpet-bombed civilians.

This is well covered here:
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Cal88
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12:15p, 2/11/25


"The best way to understand proxy wars is that the proxy is effectively engaged in a war on two fronts: against its direct adversary and its supposed patron.

Trump, whose crude honesty strips away diplomatic pretense, makes this amply clear.

Which is why the correct moral position on Ukraine was always, as I've argued since the very beginning, that Ukraine should have agreed to neutrality - which would have preserved both its sovereignty and future economic potential. Instead it let itself be enrolled in this foolish and cynical mirage of joining the West.

Those who thought they were pro-Ukraine by cheering these efforts were at best utterly naive, and at worst complicit. The predictable end outcome is that Ukraine is wrecked and fleeced by both sides, and might not even survive as a state."
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movielover
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:37p, 2/11/25
Supposedly those mineral rights are allegedly owned primarily by a little company called... Burisma.
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movielover
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In reply to Return of the King • 3:34p, 2/11/25
Krugman predicted a Recession under GWB Jr eight or nine times.
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bear2034
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8:08p, 2/11/25
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BearGoggles
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In reply to Cal88 • 8:44p, 2/11/25
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
cbbass1 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
AunBear89 said:
Yay! This means the Russians can kill even more innocent people. But you guys are against the war, right. This cheerleading post from Beto is just for information, right? Your not trying to flex and show how smart the team you support is and how stupid the other side is?


Make sure you find some gory pictures of the "targets" (or, "civilians") mangled beyond recognition! That's always good for moral and whipping up the masses - pictures of the dead filthy enemies.

The percentage of civilian deaths in this war is around 1%-2%. Contrast with Israel's war on Palestine where it's well above 90%.

The military deaths in Ukraine are still highly unfortunate, because at this stage most of their soldiers don't want to be there, they have been forcefully conscripted by the Kiev regime, which is determined to carry out NATO's war To The Last Ukrainian.
90%? LMAO. You just make up crap. Not even Hamas has claimed this.


60% of the Gazans bombed to death were women, children and men over 65. You get to 90% by assuming that 1 in 4 men under 65 killed were combattants, a reasonable number given the indiscriminate nature and massive scale of the carpet bombing, pulverizing an area the size of Manhattan with the equivalent of 4 Hiroshima bombs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-toll-40-higher-than-official-number-lancet-study-finds

You're the guy that claimed that Israel did not carpet bomb Gaza, that that one hospital was bombed because it was a secret Hamas base with a tunnel network and so forth. In other words, you have zero credibility on that subject.
Your assumptions are not reasonable, particularly when "children' and men over 65 are often combatants. Beyond that, your assumption of 1-4 is wrong (not even Hamas has claimed that) and it is just a lie to claim that carpet bombing took place.

And it has been proven that Hamas was using hospitals for military purposes. Again, that is really beyond dispute and you are just gaslighting.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html

Is it really your position that Hamas does not use civilians as human shields?
Proved? Nothing that I've seen "proved" anything of the sort.

And yes -- MY position is that Hamas does NOT use civilians as human shields. Human shields only "work" if the oppressor has sufficient decency / humanity to avoid killing civilians. But clearly, the IDF has no qualms about shooting children in the head, and dropping 2000 lb "bunker buster" bombs on refugee camps.

For the most part, Hamas fighters are in the tunnels; civilians are above ground. The IDF is killing unarmed civilians intentionally.

They tried fighting Hamas in the tunnels, and they got their a**es handed to them.

Ironically it is the Israelis who mke extensive use of human shields, sending Palestinian kids into the tunnels or marching them in front of their troops, as sen in the end of this short video where Israeli soldiers are using a 7 year old Palestinian kid as a human shield:





So you agree that using human shields is bad. Would it be had if Hamas did it? Yes or no question for you.

Hamas doesn't use human shields if only because the Israelis have shown time and again that they simply DGAF about civilians and are willing to kill 100+ civilians with zero remorse for the mere chance of killing one Hamas fighter, as shown by a recent article from Israeli news outlet 972:
Your response is highlight reel illogical and stupid. You offer no defense or counterclaim to the proven fact that Hamas intentionally hides under and in civilian areas. Full stop.

Nothing the Israelis do in response changes that fact. Even if the Israelis DGAF about civilian casualties (which is false), then that doesn't: (i) diminish the fact that Hamas is knowingly and intentionally hiding behind them; or (ii) explain why Hamas doesn't separate from civilian areas or come out from their bunkers to fight.

The only thing you've convincingly demonstrated is how desperate you are to avoid criticizing Hamas for anything. It is why you lack any credibility.

Smart and honest people concede a point or negative fact to win an argument and bolster their credibility. That is not you. Which is why no one pays any attention to the nonsense videos and links you post. We correctly assume that if you can't tell the truth about an obvious fact (Hamas using human shields), then you're likely making dishonest presentations (aka lying) about most other things.

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movielover
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9:39p, 2/11/25
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movielover
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8:00a, 2/12/25
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movielover
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9:39a, 2/12/25
@amuse

UKRAINE: Trump and Putin have agreed to begin IMMEDIATE negotiations to end the Ukraine war. My only question? Which Obama-appointed judge will block the negotiations?



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movielover
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11:30a, 2/12/25
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movielover
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11:35a, 2/12/25
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bearister
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In reply to Return of the King • 4:23p, 2/12/25
Trump will get Putin a premium deal and Trump/Kushner will get the Palestinians a sweet deal.

What do you find more morally repugnant, aiding and abetting genocide or being an accessory after the fact for monetary gain? Is there a difference?

With regard to declaring Trump the occupier of the moral high ground in these two matters…..

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
“98 yards with my boys” Yeah, sure.
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Haloski
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In reply to movielover • 5:10p, 2/12/25
movielover said:


Have they started falling out of windows yet?
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tequila4kapp
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5:45p, 2/12/25
It's gonna be a deal that NATO and Ukraine (and probably me) dislike, but the war will be over.
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Anarchistbear
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 6:42p, 2/12/25
tequila4kapp said:
It's gonna be a deal that NATO and Ukraine (and probably me) dislike, but the war will be over.


I think if NATO objected strongly they'd find a way to admit Ukraine but there is no interest in this. There should be interest in establishing an economically viable buffer state so there should be a lot of economic aid. The Europeans should pay for this.

This has been a strategic nothing burger for the US. Hopefully Musk will take the $ 56 billion we've spent as future DOGE savings
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sycasey
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 7:31p, 2/12/25
tequila4kapp said:
It's gonna be a deal that NATO and Ukraine (and probably me) dislike, but the war will be over.

For now.
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movielover
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In reply to Anarchistbear • 10:38p, 2/12/25
Anarchistbear said:
tequila4kapp said:
It's gonna be a deal that NATO and Ukraine (and probably me) dislike, but the war will be over.


I think if NATO objected strongly they'd find a way to admit Ukraine but there is no interest in this. There should be interest in establishing an economically viable buffer state so there should be a lot of economic aid. The Europeans should pay for this.

This has been a strategic nothing burger for the US. Hopefully Musk will take the $ 56 billion we've spent as future DOGE savings


You make no sense. If NATO admitted Ukraine, the war wouldn't end. Russia would probably go hard-core, possibly using their hypersonic missiles.

The last four years aren't a nothing burger, they've been an expensive shellacking for NATO and Russia got stronger.

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movielover
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4:58a, 2/13/25
If Trump gets substantial resources from Ukraine... epic.

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Cal88
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In reply to movielover • 6:08a, 2/13/25
movielover said:
If Trump gets substantial resources from Ukraine... epic.


I hope that these Ukrainian resources will mainly be used as leverage against the future Ukrainian government in incentivizing them to disarm and stay neutral. Ukrainian resources should stay in Ukraine, they need every bit of that to rebuild.

Trump is forcing Putin to end the war and keep the current borders with Russia annexing the 4 oblasts. Had Harris won, the war would have gone on for another year or two and Russia would have progressed far deeper into Ukraine and likely annexed another layer of 4-5 oblasts, corresponding to the historic territory of Novorossiya.


Russia/Putin are more interested in neutralizing their main western border than in acquiring territory, this is something that Trump has picked up. They would actually prefer to have an allied or at the very least a neutral Ukraine as a buffer country, similar to Belarus, than to absorb Ukraine.
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bearister
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6:34a, 2/13/25
I realize this doesn't have the persuasive force of catturd, amuse, Col. MacGregor, Tulsi Gabbard, or Fox News opinion personalities….but at least it comes from a pro Trump rag:

Now Putin is poised to invade Europe as Trump casts Ukraine aside



https://mol.im/a/14392761
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
“98 yards with my boys” Yeah, sure.
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Cal88
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In reply to bearister • 7:00a, 2/13/25
bearister said:
I realize this doesn't have the persuasive force of catturd, amuse, Col. MacGregor, Tulsi Gabbard, or Fox News opinion personalities….but at least it comes from a pro Trump rag:

Now Putin is poised to invade Europe as Trump casts Ukraine aside

https://mol.im/a/14392761

The British establishment is the worst offender in pushing for this hell of a war, they scuttled Minsk and the Istanbul Peace Treaty.

The Daily Mail article cites luminaries like John Bolton and Germany's Annalena Baerbock, these are representative of the alliance of ideological neocons and idiots that have led to this war and the killing of 750,000+ Ukrainian soldiers.

The Russians don't want to invade Europe, they want stable western borders and no hostile countries at their border. Russia is a gigantic land mass spread across 11 time zones, the richest country in the world by a wide margin in terms of natural resources, self-sufficient in just about everything except for pineapples and mangoes, with a relatively small population that has yet to fully develop its own territory and reach its potential. They basically want to be left alone.

The stated goal of US policy planners and the more aggressive NATO elements is to dismember Russia and take over its massive resources, much like they were in position to do in the 1990s under their man Yeltsin. Russia has basically been pushing back against that agenda. This western policy goes back to the British Empire and the "Great Game" political framework established by Halford Makinder ("World Island"), which morphed into Zbigniew Brzezinski's "Grand Chessboard" as the US took over from Britain in the role of the Thalassopower or sea power challenging the Land Power of Russia.

It's time to move on from these 19th century war games.
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bearister
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In reply to Cal88 • 7:11a, 2/13/25
Well, you make a strong case, but I don't trust neocons (who destabilized the Mideast by taking out Iraq with a pre-textual invasion) or Putin. It does seem a bit far fetched that it is in the best interests of Russia to take on the world.

My uneducated guess is that if Putin was of that mindset, he would have taken the Ukraine in two weeks instead of doing the "Super Power with handcuffs on" slow bleed out like the U.S. did in Vietnam.

*You have to admit, however, that the Daily Mail entertainment section satisfies the People Magazine/National Enquirer addiction…..and can one ever get enough of "eye popping curves," "busty displays," "pert derrieres" and endless photos of Bianca Censori?
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
“98 yards with my boys” Yeah, sure.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Cal88 • 8:18a, 2/13/25
And Hitler was a misunderstood peace maker who just wanted to be left alone...

The war is going to be over soon. Russia will be rewarded with territorial gains. Russia and China will be emboldened as a result. I don't like it but it is what it is.
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Cal88
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 9:06a, 2/13/25
tequila4kapp said:
And Hitler was a misunderstood peace maker who just wanted to be left alone...

The war is going to be over soon. Russia will be rewarded with territorial gains. Russia and China will be emboldened as a result. I don't like it but it is what it is.

As I've mentioned above, Russia holding on to the 4 oblasts would be them holding back from taking over the rest of the Russian ethnic/russophone parts of Ukraine (historic "Novorossiya") in exchange for Ukrainian neutrality, disarmament and regional security guarantees. They're not out on a mission of lebensraum territorial conquest like Hitler was, or your buddy Bibi in Israel today.

There are some Russian hawks within their political spectrum who want their tanks to roll to the Polish border, annex half of Ukraine and crush the nationalists in western Ukraine, knowing that they can get there in a year or two if this war keeps up, as Ukraine and NATO defenses are steadily fraying, but that however has not been Putin's inclination to date, he wants a neutral Ukraine and a new security deal with NATO.

Diplomatically speaking, Russia would lose if they go beyond that and yield to their hawks, as they currently have the support of most of central Europe (Slovakia, Romania, Austria, Hungary) as well as the popular oppositions in many key western European countries like France, Italy and Germany.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Cal88 • 9:08a, 2/13/25
That is your opinion about Putin's territorial ambitions. Mine are opposite. Time will tell.
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Cal88
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 9:13a, 2/13/25
In any case, even the worst hawks in Russia don't want to invade other countries beyond Ukraine, that is why the talks of tanks rolling into Europe 1940s-style are ridiculous. The one exception is the Baltic states, in case they cut off the Kaliningrad enclave, that would provoke a Russian invasion of Lithuania, or a naval blockade of St Petersburg would provoke an invasion of Estonia. However the odds of the Baltic states crossing Russian red lines under Trump are very low.
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