The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

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Cal88
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BearGoggles said:

Cal88 said:

Seymour Hersh: How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline

The New York Times called it a "mystery," but the United States executed a covert sea operation that was kept secretuntil now
Seymour Hersh

8 hr ago

https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream

Excerpts:

Quote:

Last June, the Navy divers, operating under the cover of a widely publicized mid-summer NATO exercise known as BALTOPS 22, planted the remotely triggered explosives that, three months later, destroyed three of the four Nord Stream pipelines, according to a source with direct knowledge of the operational planning.

...Throughout "all of this scheming," the source said, "some working guys in the CIA and the State Department were saying, 'Don't do this. It's stupid and will be a political nightmare if it comes out.'"
Nevertheless, in early 2022, the CIA working group reported back to Sullivan's interagency group: "We have a way to blow up the pipelines."

What came next was stunning. On February 7, less than three weeks before the seemingly inevitable Russian invasion of Ukraine, Biden met in his White House office with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who, after some wobbling, was now firmly on the American team. At the press briefing that followed, Biden defiantly said, "If Russia invades . . . there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

Twenty days earlier, Undersecretary Nuland had delivered essentially the same message at a State Department briefing, with little press coverage. "I want to be very clear to you today," she said in response to a question. "If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another Nord Stream 2 will not move forward."

Several of those involved in planning the pipeline mission were dismayed by what they viewed as indirect references to the attack.

"It was like putting an atomic bomb on the ground in Tokyo and telling the Japanese that we are going to detonate it," the source said. "The plan was for the options to be executed post invasion and not advertised publicly. Biden simply didn't get it or ignored it."

Biden's and Nuland's indiscretion, if that is what it was, might have frustrated some of the planners. But it also created an opportunity. According to the source, some of the senior officials of the CIA determined that blowing up the pipeline "no longer could be considered a covert option because the President just announced that we knew how to do it."

The plan to blow up Nord Stream 1 and 2 was suddenly downgraded from a covert operation requiring that Congress be informed to one that was deemed as a highly classified intelligence operation with U.S. military support. Under the law, the source explained, "There was no longer a legal requirement to report the operation to Congress. All they had to do now is just do itbut it still had to be secret. The Russians have superlative surveillance of the Baltic Sea."

The Agency working group members had no direct contact with the White House, and were eager to find out if the President meant what he'd saidthat is, if the mission was now a go. The source recalled, "Bill Burns comes back and says, 'Do it.'"

...On September 26, 2022, a Norwegian Navy P8 surveillance plane made a seemingly routine flight and dropped a sonar buoy. The signal spread underwater, initially to Nord Stream 2 and then on to Nord Stream 1. A few hours later, the high-powered C4 explosives were triggered and three of the four pipelines were put out of commission. Within a few minutes, pools of methane gas that remained in the shuttered pipelines could be seen spreading on the water's surface and the world learned that something irreversible had taken place.
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream




Were you the only one who didn't understand the US was involved?

Much of the Hersh reporting was known to Fox News viewers months ago.

https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/tucker-carlson-really-happened-nord-stream-pipeline

https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/tucker-carlson-dont-ask-obvious-questions-nord-stream-pipeline-leak

Biden inexplicably lifted Trump's ban/sanctions on NS 2 when entering office - w/o any concession from Russia. Similar to what he did with Iran. Plain stupid.

But I'm told by some here Biden is the best foreign policy president since Kennedy.

I knew it was a NATO job, but the difference here is that Tucker (who is pretty much the only guy I like at Fox) doesn't have the gravitas or reach of Seymour Hersh, the guy who has brought My Lai and Abu Ghraib to the public fore. The fact that Hersh came out and made this report is quite newsworthy in and of itself.

Also the details revealed are quite interesting, like the involvement of the Norwegians as the main NATO Jr partners in this operation, prior to that the suspicions were on UK teams. The level of detail Hersh provides indicates that his source(s) for this story are quite reliable and in the loop.
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

I'll just save everyone the time of reading the next several weeks of movielover posts:

"Col. McGregor says that everything is going great for Russia and America is bad."

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Criticizing bad US policy is our patriotic duty.
"our"

Do you want some freedom fries with that?


I'm an American who was called a traitor for opposing the Iraq War during the time of freedom fries. I dont know what you were doing at that time but you weren't being an American.
movielover
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Reports now that NATO ammo stockpiles dwindling, and the US has reportedly gone through 7 years worth of Javelin missile production.
Cal88
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

I'll just save everyone the time of reading the next several weeks of movielover posts:

"Col. McGregor says that everything is going great for Russia and America is bad."

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Criticizing bad US policy is our patriotic duty.
"our"

Do you want some freedom fries with that?

I'm an American who was called a traitor for opposing the Iraq War during the time of freedom fries. I dont know what you were doing at that time but you weren't being an American.

Did you just assume my gender nationality?
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

I'll just save everyone the time of reading the next several weeks of movielover posts:

"Col. McGregor says that everything is going great for Russia and America is bad."

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Criticizing bad US policy is our patriotic duty.
"our"

Do you want some freedom fries with that?

I'm an American who was called a traitor for opposing the Iraq War during the time of freedom fries. I dont know what you were doing at that time but you weren't being an American.

Did you just assume my gender nationality?


You've discussed being French. Like the fries.
Cal88
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

I'll just save everyone the time of reading the next several weeks of movielover posts:

"Col. McGregor says that everything is going great for Russia and America is bad."

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Criticizing bad US policy is our patriotic duty.
"our"

Do you want some freedom fries with that?

I'm an American who was called a traitor for opposing the Iraq War during the time of freedom fries. I dont know what you were doing at that time but you weren't being an American.

Did you just assume my gender nationality?

You've discussed being French. Like the fries.

40 years on this side of the Pond, I even have ketchup with my freedom fries.

movielover
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

I'll just save everyone the time of reading the next several weeks of movielover posts:

"Col. McGregor says that everything is going great for Russia and America is bad."

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Criticizing bad US policy is our patriotic duty.
"our"

Do you want some freedom fries with that?

I'm an American who was called a traitor for opposing the Iraq War during the time of freedom fries. I dont know what you were doing at that time but you weren't being an American.

Did you just assume my gender nationality?

You've discussed being French. Like the fries.

40 years on this side of the Pond, I even have ketchup with my freedom fries.




My first time in Paris, the locals were surprised I was using ketchup (as they used mayonnaise).
Cal88
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Ugly underside of this senseless war:







Ukrainians are resourceful, and will go through a lot in order to be able to go the local market:



Unit2Sucks
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This page is full of evidence that when you engage with Russian propagandists you just give them an opportunity to spread more false and misleading disinformation. Firehose of falsehoods in action. Any engagement is a call to action.

Don't take my word for it, here's what Rand says: https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html

Quote:

We characterize the contemporary Russian model for propaganda as "the firehose of falsehood" because of two of its distinctive features: high numbers of channels and messages and a shameless willingness to disseminate partial truths or outright fictions. In the words of one observer, "[N]ew Russian propaganda entertains, confuses and overwhelms the audience."2

Contemporary Russian propaganda has at least two other distinctive features. It is also rapid, continuous, and repetitive, and it lacks commitment to consistency.

Interestingly, several of these features run directly counter to the conventional wisdom on effective influence and communication from government or defense sources, which traditionally emphasize the importance of truth, credibility, and the avoidance of contradiction.3 Despite ignoring these traditional principles, Russia seems to have enjoyed some success under its contemporary propaganda model, either through more direct persuasion and influence or by engaging in obfuscation, confusion, and the disruption or diminution of truthful reporting and messaging.

movielover
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Seymore Hersh a Propogandist?
sycasey
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movielover said:

Seymore Hersh a Propogandist?

Probably just a nutjob.

BearGoggles
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Cal88 said:

BearGoggles said:

movielover said:

BearGoggles said:

movielover said:

Colonel Douglass McGregor alleges that the Pentagon now knows victory is impossible, and they relayed that message two months ago to the White House. The politicians (Biden, Blinken, Sullivan?) haven't accepted that reality.

He goes further. He believes this could end NATO, and Russia has gotten much stronger. Putin has plans to build a 1.5 Million military, and his Military is battle and field tested.

If by battle tested you mean decimated by losses, lacking in modern equipment, and without competent professional leadership, then ok.

Russia is a second rate power - which is actually the best argument for why the US has no national interests at stake in Ukraine. The only reason they deserve any attention is the nuclear arsenal. If he builds up his military, it will strengthen NATO.



Then why the Russian advancement along multiple fronts the past two weeks, including Bakhmut being hemmed in?

Why is Ukraine resorting to kidnapping young and old men off the streets?

Where did Ukraine's 5000 pieces of tanks, armoured carriers, etc., go? Jiffy Lube?
Because Russia has a tactical advantage in those limited areas and the Ukrainian army is overstretched. This is not hard to explain and doesn't mean the Russian army is "battle tested" or first rate.


I guess you must have skipped over the report I've posted last week from the Australian officer who has been fighting in the Donbass for month with the Ukrainian army, there is a lot of information in this 4min excerpt:



Points he makes:

-Russian forces better equipped
-Use more modern tactics
-Have "blue force tracking", meaning electronically tracking their friendlies, while Ukraine doesn't
-Backed by heavy artillery
-Not taking a lot of losses, but inflicting many
-Ukrainians don't rotate their forces
-The Russians have "total capabilities overmatch"
The real Wagner group (i.e., mercenaries) are a higher caliber force. The professionals number approx 8,000-10,000 by most accounts. Recently, they've added additional troops reportedly around 40,000, consisting of conscripts and prisoners. Obviously, not the same caliber of solider.

To the large point, as I stated Russia does have a tactical advantage in the LIMITED areas where the the Wagner group is operating and perhaps a few other areas. Beyond that, not so much. And beyond the 8,000-10,000, the remainder of the Russian army is not battle tested or first rate.

McGregor and others are citing the recent influx of reportedly hundreds of thousands of conscripts and other new soldiers. Let's see how they perform. Based on how the regular army performed last year, I think there is real doubt as to how they fight, though its possible they overwhelm Ukraine by sheer numbers.

BearGoggles
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Cal88 said:

BearGoggles said:

Cal88 said:

Seymour Hersh: How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline

The New York Times called it a "mystery," but the United States executed a covert sea operation that was kept secretuntil now
Seymour Hersh

8 hr ago

https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream

Excerpts:

Quote:

Last June, the Navy divers, operating under the cover of a widely publicized mid-summer NATO exercise known as BALTOPS 22, planted the remotely triggered explosives that, three months later, destroyed three of the four Nord Stream pipelines, according to a source with direct knowledge of the operational planning.

...Throughout "all of this scheming," the source said, "some working guys in the CIA and the State Department were saying, 'Don't do this. It's stupid and will be a political nightmare if it comes out.'"
Nevertheless, in early 2022, the CIA working group reported back to Sullivan's interagency group: "We have a way to blow up the pipelines."

What came next was stunning. On February 7, less than three weeks before the seemingly inevitable Russian invasion of Ukraine, Biden met in his White House office with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who, after some wobbling, was now firmly on the American team. At the press briefing that followed, Biden defiantly said, "If Russia invades . . . there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

Twenty days earlier, Undersecretary Nuland had delivered essentially the same message at a State Department briefing, with little press coverage. "I want to be very clear to you today," she said in response to a question. "If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another Nord Stream 2 will not move forward."

Several of those involved in planning the pipeline mission were dismayed by what they viewed as indirect references to the attack.

"It was like putting an atomic bomb on the ground in Tokyo and telling the Japanese that we are going to detonate it," the source said. "The plan was for the options to be executed post invasion and not advertised publicly. Biden simply didn't get it or ignored it."

Biden's and Nuland's indiscretion, if that is what it was, might have frustrated some of the planners. But it also created an opportunity. According to the source, some of the senior officials of the CIA determined that blowing up the pipeline "no longer could be considered a covert option because the President just announced that we knew how to do it."

The plan to blow up Nord Stream 1 and 2 was suddenly downgraded from a covert operation requiring that Congress be informed to one that was deemed as a highly classified intelligence operation with U.S. military support. Under the law, the source explained, "There was no longer a legal requirement to report the operation to Congress. All they had to do now is just do itbut it still had to be secret. The Russians have superlative surveillance of the Baltic Sea."

The Agency working group members had no direct contact with the White House, and were eager to find out if the President meant what he'd saidthat is, if the mission was now a go. The source recalled, "Bill Burns comes back and says, 'Do it.'"

...On September 26, 2022, a Norwegian Navy P8 surveillance plane made a seemingly routine flight and dropped a sonar buoy. The signal spread underwater, initially to Nord Stream 2 and then on to Nord Stream 1. A few hours later, the high-powered C4 explosives were triggered and three of the four pipelines were put out of commission. Within a few minutes, pools of methane gas that remained in the shuttered pipelines could be seen spreading on the water's surface and the world learned that something irreversible had taken place.
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream




Were you the only one who didn't understand the US was involved?

Much of the Hersh reporting was known to Fox News viewers months ago.

https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/tucker-carlson-really-happened-nord-stream-pipeline

https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/tucker-carlson-dont-ask-obvious-questions-nord-stream-pipeline-leak

Biden inexplicably lifted Trump's ban/sanctions on NS 2 when entering office - w/o any concession from Russia. Similar to what he did with Iran. Plain stupid.

But I'm told by some here Biden is the best foreign policy president since Kennedy.

I knew it was a NATO job, but the difference here is that Tucker (who is pretty much the only guy I like at Fox) doesn't have the gravitas or reach of Seymour Hersh, the guy who has brought My Lai and Abu Ghraib to the public fore. The fact that Hersh came out and made this report is quite newsworthy in and of itself.

Also the details revealed are quite interesting, like the involvement of the Norwegians as the main NATO Jr partners in this operation, prior to that the suspicions were on UK teams. The level of detail Hersh provides indicates that his source(s) for this story are quite reliable and in the loop.
I agree the details are interesting and Hersh deserves credit for that if his facts are true. His track record is mixed in terms of some of his factual claims, but I have no reason to doubt the story in this case.

Gravitas aside (which is a pretty subjective thing), there is no way at this point in his life Hersh has a greater reach than Carlson. Carlsson is on tv 5 days a week with one of the top 3 rated news programs.

As you likely know, there's a separate thread on Nord Stream. Most there thought the US did it (directly or indirectly) and most rejected the "Russia did it" theories as making no sense.
Cal88
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I thought most of the pro-Zelensky posters outright rejected the notion that the US govt. blew it up. Some posters in my social media feed were like, yeah we did it, and we're proud of it, but I haven't seen that kind of bluster on this board yet.

Tucker reaches a lot of people on cable, but most Democrats hate him, whereas Hersh still has some pull among the less dogmatic segment of the Democrats as well as the left. So he has a wider reach in terms of the political spectrum.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

I thought most of the pro-Zelensky posters outright rejected the notion that the US govt. blew it up.
You're mostly making these people up in your head. My position was always "I don't know who did it," and it remains so after the Hersh article because he brought no evidence except one unnamed source.
movielover
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Spy Glass user is able to track the only plane in that area when the pipe was blown which was one of ours.

https://www.monkeywerxus.com/blog/the-nord-stream-2-pipeline-sabotage

Should Putin send the repair bill to the White House, UN, and NATO?
Cal88
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BearGoggles said:

Cal88 said:

BearGoggles said:

movielover said:

BearGoggles said:

movielover said:

Colonel Douglass McGregor alleges that the Pentagon now knows victory is impossible, and they relayed that message two months ago to the White House. The politicians (Biden, Blinken, Sullivan?) haven't accepted that reality.

He goes further. He believes this could end NATO, and Russia has gotten much stronger. Putin has plans to build a 1.5 Million military, and his Military is battle and field tested.

If by battle tested you mean decimated by losses, lacking in modern equipment, and without competent professional leadership, then ok.

Russia is a second rate power - which is actually the best argument for why the US has no national interests at stake in Ukraine. The only reason they deserve any attention is the nuclear arsenal. If he builds up his military, it will strengthen NATO.

Then why the Russian advancement along multiple fronts the past two weeks, including Bakhmut being hemmed in?

Why is Ukraine resorting to kidnapping young and old men off the streets?

Where did Ukraine's 5000 pieces of tanks, armoured carriers, etc., go? Jiffy Lube?
Because Russia has a tactical advantage in those limited areas and the Ukrainian army is overstretched. This is not hard to explain and doesn't mean the Russian army is "battle tested" or first rate.

I guess you must have skipped over the report I've posted last week from the Australian officer who has been fighting in the Donbass for month with the Ukrainian army, there is a lot of information in this 4min excerpt:



Points he makes:

-Russian forces better equipped
-Use more modern tactics
-Have "blue force tracking", meaning electronically tracking their friendlies, while Ukraine doesn't
-Backed by heavy artillery
-Not taking a lot of losses, but inflicting many
-Ukrainians don't rotate their forces
-The Russians have "total capabilities overmatch"
The real Wagner group (i.e., mercenaries) are a higher caliber force. The professionals number approx 8,000-10,000 by most accounts. Recently, they've added additional troops reportedly around 40,000, consisting of conscripts and prisoners. Obviously, not the same caliber of solider.

To the large point, as I stated Russia does have a tactical advantage in the LIMITED areas where the the Wagner group is operating and perhaps a few other areas. Beyond that, not so much. And beyond the 8,000-10,000, the remainder of the Russian army is not battle tested or first rate.

McGregor and others are citing the recent influx of reportedly hundreds of thousands of conscripts and other new soldiers. Let's see how they perform. Based on how the regular army performed last year, I think there is real doubt as to how they fight, though its possible they overwhelm Ukraine by sheer numbers.

The Russians' tactical advantage also rides on the sheer volume of their firepower, and that is true across their entire frontline. As well most of their new soldiers they are gradually injecting into the Ukraine war are reservists rather than conscripts, and these reservists get a few months of "refresher" training before they send them to fight. I think they're also integrating more modern aspects like drone warfare across the board, which they didn't have so much of last year.

The other aspect about tactical advantage is that when the Russians don't have it, they retreat. That's the reason they've preemptively evacuated the right bank in Kherson and shrunk their northern exposure as they were spread too thin (less than 200,000 troops on a 2,000km frontline.)
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

I thought most of the pro-Zelensky posters outright rejected the notion that the US govt. blew it up.
You're mostly making these people up in your head. My position was always "I don't know who did it," and it remains so after the Hersh article because he brought no evidence except one unnamed source.

Your position, stated above, is that "Hersh is a nutjob", a rather aggressive refutation of the notion that his article might be true.
oski003
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

I thought most of the pro-Zelensky posters outright rejected the notion that the US govt. blew it up.
You're mostly making these people up in your head. My position was always "I don't know who did it," and it remains so after the Hersh article because he brought no evidence except one unnamed source.

Sycasey: have no idea who sabotaged that pipeline, but if Max Blumenthal says it wasn't Russia, then I'm more inclined to believe that it was

Unit2sucks: Russian navy was spotted on the day of the explosion in the area and there are no US ships there, but sure let's pretend like the US did this.

Diablo: Those who think the US did this watch Tucker Carlson. Yes, Because the United States loves stabbing its NATO partners in the back after doing everything they can to support them. Yes, it must have been the United States that sabotaged the Pipeline. We want the EU economies to shrink by as much as 5% next year and watch Germany suffer the most from the 3rd largest economic contraction of the euro-area since WW-2. Russia already cut off gas to Europe. It was a "stunt". Ask yourself why. I've got $1,000 that says that Russia was behind the sabotage. I'll donate the proceeds to Cal Football if I lose.

movielover
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Biden threatened to do so.

Blinken gloated after the fact. Same as Victoria Nuland.

US plane tracked to that area on the appropriate time period. Whi else could do it - Israel? No.

Norway is another HUGE beneficiary of the destruction of the Nordstream pipelines. (Northern Norway gas fields and the new pipeline they have just opened.)

DailyMail: "Putin chillingly threatens a 'response' if UK gives fighter jets to Ukraine: Kremlin sabre rattlers warn of 'military-political consequences for Europe and entire world' if Britain 'escalates' conflict - as Sunak tells Zelensky NOTHING is off the table"
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

I thought most of the pro-Zelensky posters outright rejected the notion that the US govt. blew it up.
You're mostly making these people up in your head. My position was always "I don't know who did it," and it remains so after the Hersh article because he brought no evidence except one unnamed source.

Your position, stated above, is that "Hersh is a nutjob", a rather aggressive refutation of the notion that his article might be true.

He is. That doesn't automatically make him wrong every time, but it does mean he's not a trusted source.
sycasey
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oski003 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

I thought most of the pro-Zelensky posters outright rejected the notion that the US govt. blew it up.
You're mostly making these people up in your head. My position was always "I don't know who did it," and it remains so after the Hersh article because he brought no evidence except one unnamed source.

Sycasey: have no idea who sabotaged that pipeline, but if Max Blumenthal says it wasn't Russia, then I'm more inclined to believe that it was

So my position is the same.
Eastern Oregon Bear
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movielover said:

Spy Glass user is able to track the only plane in that area when the pipe was blown which was one of ours.

https://www.monkeywerxus.com/blog/the-nord-stream-2-pipeline-sabotage

Should Putin send the repair bill to the White House, UN, and NATO?
How do you blow up an underwater pipeline with a plane?
movielover
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

movielover said:

Spy Glass user is able to track the only plane in that area when the pipe was blown which was one of ours.

https://www.monkeywerxus.com/blog/the-nord-stream-2-pipeline-sabotage

Should Putin send the repair bill to the White House, UN, and NATO?
How do you blow up an underwater pipeline with a plane?


Read the article. Buoy dropped, which signals a receiver attached to the C4 explosive attached to the 4 pipelines.
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

I'll just save everyone the time of reading the next several weeks of movielover posts:

"Col. McGregor says that everything is going great for Russia and America is bad."

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Criticizing bad US policy is our patriotic duty.
"our"

Do you want some freedom fries with that?

I'm an American who was called a traitor for opposing the Iraq War during the time of freedom fries. I dont know what you were doing at that time but you weren't being an American.

Did you just assume my gender nationality?

You've discussed being French. Like the fries.

40 years on this side of the Pond, I even have ketchup with my freedom fries.




Some people are born in America, spend their whole lives here, and are traitors
dajo9
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Unit2Sucks said:

This page is full of evidence that when you engage with Russian propagandists you just give them an opportunity to spread more false and misleading disinformation. Firehose of falsehoods in action. Any engagement is a call to action.

Don't take my word for it, here's what Rand says: https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html

Quote:

We characterize the contemporary Russian model for propaganda as "the firehose of falsehood" because of two of its distinctive features: high numbers of channels and messages and a shameless willingness to disseminate partial truths or outright fictions. In the words of one observer, "[N]ew Russian propaganda entertains, confuses and overwhelms the audience."2

Contemporary Russian propaganda has at least two other distinctive features. It is also rapid, continuous, and repetitive, and it lacks commitment to consistency.

Interestingly, several of these features run directly counter to the conventional wisdom on effective influence and communication from government or defense sources, which traditionally emphasize the importance of truth, credibility, and the avoidance of contradiction.3 Despite ignoring these traditional principles, Russia seems to have enjoyed some success under its contemporary propaganda model, either through more direct persuasion and influence or by engaging in obfuscation, confusion, and the disruption or diminution of truthful reporting and messaging.




I've heard it called the Gish Gallop
dimitrig
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I apologize if this was posted before, but I had some time and decided to Google this Colonel McGregor:

Fox News' Invasion Expert Is a Trump-Appointed Putin Propagandist Who Thinks Russia Is Being 'Too Gentle'

I don't watch any news other than NHK and occasionally BBC (plus sometimes CNN if I am at an elderly relatives house and I am subjected to it) so I had no idea he was a Tucker Carlson shill. That explains a lot.




MinotStateBeav
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I am hearing Elon is cutting off use of Starlink for Ukraine's drones. At first I didn't think it was a good idea..but I just watched a video of Ukrainians dropping a chemical bomb from a drone on some russians and the resulting death was f'ing horrific. I would never link to that video because it's beyond f'd. You can find it if you want to look for it, but I'd advise against it. There's a reason we have banned the use of these weapons and even though Russia and Ukraine aren't signatories, Ukraine should know better when they are trying to attempt to join nato and the EU.
Cal88
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MinotStateBeav said:

I am hearing Elon is cutting off use of Starlink for Ukraine's drones. At first I didn't think it was a good idea..but I just watched a video of Ukrainians dropping a chemical bomb from a drone on some russians and the resulting death was f'ing horrific. I would never link to that video because it's beyond f'd. You can find it if you want to look for it, but I'd advise against it. There's a reason we have banned the use of these weapons and even though Russia and Ukraine aren't signatories, Ukraine should know better when they are trying to attempt to join nato and the EU.

I saw that video too, and the one recently published of a Ukrainian soldier firing several rounds into the skull of a Russian POW lying helpless on the ground. Not a good look for the "good guys".

This is one of the units that is preparing chemical weapons in the form of canisters tied to quad drones. There is not much of a forensic effort here as they are boasting about putting together and using these weapons:



This is a still from the video that has been going around of a chemical nerve agent cannister being dropped from a quad drone on a Russian soldier who subsequently goes into convulsions before drowning. Not going to link that video here for obvious reasons.

MinotStateBeav
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Yep, that screenshot is from the video I watched.
oski003
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

I'll just save everyone the time of reading the next several weeks of movielover posts:

"Col. McGregor says that everything is going great for Russia and America is bad."

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Criticizing bad US policy is our patriotic duty.
"our"

Do you want some freedom fries with that?

I'm an American who was called a traitor for opposing the Iraq War during the time of freedom fries. I dont know what you were doing at that time but you weren't being an American.

Did you just assume my gender nationality?

You've discussed being French. Like the fries.

40 years on this side of the Pond, I even have ketchup with my freedom fries.




Some people are born in America, spend their whole lives here, and are traitors


What shall Cal88's punishment be?

2381. Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
dajo9
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oski003 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

I'll just save everyone the time of reading the next several weeks of movielover posts:

"Col. McGregor says that everything is going great for Russia and America is bad."

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Criticizing bad US policy is our patriotic duty.
"our"

Do you want some freedom fries with that?

I'm an American who was called a traitor for opposing the Iraq War during the time of freedom fries. I dont know what you were doing at that time but you weren't being an American.

Did you just assume my gender nationality?

You've discussed being French. Like the fries.

40 years on this side of the Pond, I even have ketchup with my freedom fries.




Some people are born in America, spend their whole lives here, and are traitors


What shall Cal88's punishment be?

2381. Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
The public humiliation he gets on these boards on a daily basis is punishment enough
movielover
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Does the video pass the smell test as legitimate?
movielover
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NOT PROPOGANDA

NATO General: Losses in Ukraine Are "Out of Proportion"

"As Europe grapples with ammunition shortage, it becomes clear that soft power can not substitute for military might, NATO Commander Cavoli believes.

The war in Ukraine is burning through weaponry, ammunition, and manpower faster than NATO had ever anticipated, a top NATO general admitted at a security conference, reported the Business Insider. In particular, the heavy casualties and consumption of ammunition are spreading concerns among the leaders of the Atlantic Organisation.

"The magnitude of this war is incredible," U.S. Army General Christopher Cavoli, NATO's Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) told the audience at a defense conference in Stockholm. "The scale of this war is out of proportion with all our recent thinking," he said, "but it is real and we must contend with it." ...

"..."Production capacity remains vital," Cavoli said, especially referring to artillery shells. "If we average out since the beginning of the war, the slow days and fast days, the Russians have expended on average well over 20,000 artillery rounds per day," the general said, implying that Kyiv no matter the assistance can not match these numbers in the short run."

https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/nato-general-losses-in-ukraine-are-out-of-proportion/

Colonel Douglass McGregor's thoughts:

Americans won't hear this, but Europeans will and this may be a signal.

movielover
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The backstory is coming forth as Germany has secured non-US long-term energy supplies.

Energy-secured Germany blames US for Nord Stream sabotage for the first time

Posted 4 days ago. Original source from The Times.



https://tfiglobalnews.com/2023/02/04/an-energy-secured-germany-blames-us-for-nord-stream-sabotage-for-the-first-time/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/who-attacked-nord-stream-pipeline-russia-uk-west-ukraine-war-wv99ds7tx

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