Anarchistbear said:

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concordtom said:

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Time for 007 to assassinate Putin and his inner circle.

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Tom, now we need your Wiley Coyote Acme Assassination Kit Toolbox

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Thanks, but I'm going to wait a while for Wife to approve this proposal for a feasibility plan first.

If you think China isn't watching you are an idiot. Putin has set the blueprint for invading a sovereign nation. Is Taiwan next?

BearNIt said:

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If you think China isn't watching you are an idiot. Putin has set the blueprint for invading a sovereign nation. Is Taiwan next?

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Yes.

The real question is, what comes after Ukraine and Taiwan?

dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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concordtom said:

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cbbass1 said:

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sycasey said:

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I admit, even I didn't think the Putin appeasers would be proven wrong THIS quickly.

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Me either!

I'll take my lumps & eat some well-deserved crow; I didn't think that Putin would be stupid enough to go on his rant about restoring the old USSR. In proving his NeoCon critics correct, he's crossed a dangerous line.

It remains to be seen if he'll attack a NATO Member country. I doubt that he will, as that would invite a direct U.S. military response. Personally, I don't think he's likely to take that step.


If he does, then this might be the first phase of The Great Realignment. Then China will soon be annexing Taiwan, and U.S. defense pacts with many nations will be put to the test. China would be Putin's partner in a massive realignment of the world economy, with the U.S. defaulting on its Treasuries held by China, the end of the USD as the world's reserve currency, and the collapse of the U.S. import-based economy.

All existing relationships between U.S. corporations and China will need to be reconsidered, since the U.S. is almost completely dependent on China and its neighbors for manufactured goods. The U.S. economy remains extremely vulnerable, and China is holding all the cards. The political alignment of Japan, S. Korea, Philippines, and all of Southeast Asia are at stake. Current U.S. satellites will be faced with a choice of alignment with the U.S. military empire, or China's Belt & Roads.

Even with all the Covid-related supply disruptions, U.S. corporations have done little to invest in U.S. domestic manufacturing. That will be disastrous for the U.S. -- IF this keeps going on its current course.

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Looks like it's going to be USA+Europe vs China+Russia.
We need to get some super poor nations to do our manufacturing for us, then cut China out. USA+Europe are the consumers.
India has a lot of people, let's align with them and shift all manufacturing there, or to African or Latin American populations who will work for cheap (and need development).

Quote:

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U.S. Officials Repeatedly Urged China to Help Avert War in Ukraine

Edward Wong - NYTimes
Fri, February 25, 2022, 5:29 AM

WASHINGTON Over three months, senior Biden administration officials held half a dozen urgent meetings with top Chinese officials in which the Americans presented intelligence showing Russia's troop buildup around Ukraine and beseeched the Chinese to tell Russia not to invade, according to U.S. officials.

Each time, the Chinese officials, including the foreign minister and the ambassador to the United States, rebuffed the Americans, saying they did not think an invasion was in the works. After one diplomatic exchange in December, U.S. officials got intelligence showing Beijing had shared the information with Moscow, telling the Russians that the United States was trying to sow discord and that China would not try to impede Russian plans and actions, the officials said.

The previously unreported talks between U.S. and Chinese officials show how the Biden administration tried to use intelligence findings and diplomacy to persuade a superpower it views as a growing adversary to stop the invasion of Ukraine, and how that nation, led by President Xi Jinping, persistently sided with Russia even as the evidence of Moscow's plans for a military offensive grew over the winter.

This account is based on interviews with senior administration officials with knowledge of the conversations who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the diplomacy. The Chinese Embassy did not return requests for comment.

China is Russia's most powerful partner, and the two nations have been strengthening their bond for many years across diplomatic, economic and military realms. Xi and President Vladimir Putin of Russia, two autocrats with some shared ideas about global power, had met 37 times as national leaders before this year. If any world leader could make Putin think twice about invading Ukraine, it was Xi, went the thinking of some U.S. officials.

But the diplomatic efforts failed, and Putin began a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on Thursday morning after recognizing two Russia-backed insurgent enclaves in the country's east as independent states.
Some U.S. officials say the ties between China and Russia appear stronger than at any time since the Cold War. The two now present themselves as an ideological front against the United States and its European and Asian allies, even as Putin carries out the invasion of Ukraine, whose sovereignty China has recognized for decades.

The growing alarm among U.S. and European officials at the alignment between China and Russia has reached a new peak with the Ukraine crisis, exactly 50 years to the week after President Richard Nixon made a historic trip to China to restart diplomatic relations to make common cause in counterbalancing the Soviet Union. For 40 years after that, the relationship between the United States and China grew stronger, especially as lucrative trade ties developed, but then frayed due to mutual suspicions, intensifying strategic competition and antithetical ideas about power and governance.

In the recent private talks on Ukraine, U.S. officials heard language from their Chinese counterparts that was consistent with harder lines the Chinese had been voicing in public, which showed that a more hostile attitude had become entrenched, according to the American accounts.

On Wednesday, after Putin ordered troops into eastern Ukraine but before its full invasion, Hua Chunying, a Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, said at a news conference in Beijing that the United States was "the culprit of current tensions surrounding Ukraine."

"On the Ukraine issue, lately the U.S. has been sending weapons to Ukraine, heightening tensions, creating panic and even hyping up the possibility of warfare," she said. "If someone keeps pouring oil on the flame while accusing others of not doing their best to put out the fire, such kind of behavior is clearly irresponsible and immoral."

She added: "When the U.S. drove five waves of NATO expansion eastward all the way to Russia's doorstep and deployed advanced offensive strategic weapons in breach of its assurances to Russia, did it ever think about the consequences of pushing a big country to the wall?" She has refused to call Russia's assault an "invasion" when pressed by foreign journalists.

Hua's fiery anti-American remarks as Russia was moving to attack its neighbor stunned some current and former U.S. officials and China analysts in the United States. But the verbal grenades echo major points in the 5,000-word joint statement that China and Russia issued on Feb. 4 when Xi and Putin met at the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympic Games in Beijing. In that document, the two countries declared their partnership had "no limits" and that they intended to stand together against U.S.-led democratic nations. China also explicitly sided with Russia in the text to denounce enlargement of the NATO alliance.

Last Saturday, Wang Yi, the Chinese foreign minister, criticized NATO in a video talk at the Munich Security Conference. European leaders in turn accused China of working with Russia to overturn what they and the Americans say is a "rules-based international order." Wang did say that Ukraine's sovereignty should be "respected and safeguarded" a reference to a foreign policy principle that Beijing often cites but no Chinese officials have mentioned Ukraine in those terms since Russia's full invasion began.

"They claim neutrality, they claim they stand on principle, but everything they say about the causes is anti-U.S., blaming NATO and adopting the Russian line," said Evan Medeiros, a Georgetown University professor who was senior Asia director at the White House National Security Council in the Obama administration. "The question is: How sustainable is that as a posture? How much damage does it do to their ties with the U.S. and their ties with Europe?"

The Biden administration's diplomatic outreach to China to try to avert war began after President Joe Biden and Xi held a video summit on Nov. 15. In the talk, the two leaders acknowledged challenges in the relationship between their nations, which is at its lowest point in decades, but agreed to try to cooperate on issues of common interest, including health security, climate change and nuclear weapons proliferation, White House officials said at the time.

After the meeting, U.S. officials decided that the Russian troop buildup around Ukraine presented the most immediate problem that China and the United States could try to defuse together. Some officials thought the outcome of the video summit indicated there was potential for an improvement in U.S.-China relations. Others were more skeptical, but thought it was important to leave no stone unturned in efforts to prevent Russia from attacking, one official said.

Days later, White House officials met with the ambassador, Qin Gang, at the Chinese Embassy. They told the ambassador what U.S. intelligence agencies had detected: a gradual encirclement of Ukraine by Russian forces, including armored units. William J. Burns, the CIA director, had flown to Moscow on Nov. 2 to confront the Russians with the same information, and on Nov. 17, U.S. intelligence officials shared their findings with NATO.

At the Chinese Embassy, Russia's aggression was the first topic in a discussion that ran more than 1 1/2 hours. In addition to laying out the intelligence, the White House officials told the ambassador that the United States would impose tough sanctions on Russian companies, officials and businesspeople in the event of an invasion, going far beyond those announced by the Obama administration after Russia seized Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula in 2014.

The U.S. officials said the sanctions would also hurt China over time because of its commercial ties.
They also pointed out they knew how China had helped Russia evade some of the 2014 sanctions, and warned Beijing against any such future aid. And they argued that because China was widely seen as a partner of Russia, its global image could suffer if Putin invaded.

The message was clear: It would be in China's interests to persuade Putin to stand down. But their entreaties went nowhere. Qin was skeptical and suspicious, a U.S. official said.

U.S. officials spoke with the ambassador about Russia at least three more times, both in the embassy and on the phone. Wendy R. Sherman, the deputy secretary of state, had a call with him. Qin continued to express skepticism and said Russia had legitimate security concerns in Europe.

The Americans also went higher on the diplomatic ladder: Secretary of State Antony Blinken spoke to Wang about the problem in late January and again on Monday, the same day Putin ordered the new troops into Russia-backed enclaves of Ukraine.

"The secretary underscored the need to preserve Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity," said a State Department summary of the call that used the phrase that Chinese diplomats like to employ in signaling to other nations not to get involved in matters involving Taiwan, Tibet, Xinjiang and Hong Kong, all considered separatist problems by Beijing.

U.S. officials met with Qin in Washington again on Wednesday and heard the same rebuttals. Hours later, Putin declared war on Ukraine on television, and his military began pummeling the country with ballistic missiles as tanks rolled across the border.

2022 The New York Times Company

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Trump's Tariffs did successfully move some manufacturing from China to Mexico, India, and Malaysia. Not everything he did was bad although he got a lot of heat here for these tariffs for a "tax on poor Americans and subsidizing large farms." Unfortunately, I have to declare that I am not saying his tariffs were perfect, and I am not whole-heartedly defending Trump either. He sucks. I don't want to be attacked just because I am defending a major aspect of his tariffs.

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How is that a win for Americans in any way?

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Less manufacturing reliance on an IP stealing imperialistic global competitor is a win for Americans.

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You are really playing on the fringes here

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How or why?

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Because you are making a mountain out of a molehill

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Can you be more specific?

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Not necessary. Your argument doesn't stand up on its own.

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Which part of it?

The mayor of Kiyv says a missile has hit an apartment building in Ukraine’s capital, as fighting between Ukrainian and invading Russian forces raged – but no deaths or injuries were immediately reported.https://t.co/OBxxKfoqUG

— Anis (@Lufcmuslims) February 26, 2022

Sky News has verified and located two videos which show a missile hitting an apartment block in the west of Kyiv. No deaths have been reported.

Live updates: https://t.co/cz5NTchyMw pic.twitter.com/jAFd1SwIlm

— Sky News (@SkyNews) February 26, 2022

the madness of mankind

Looks like Putin's commanders told them to just sit in a holding pattern for time being, tell people they are out of gas - but they are not.

Probably just "showing" their presence while diplomats consider the alleged "negotiations" for Ukraine surrender we had heard about.

As soon as the boss gives the go, they will continue to roll.

The yield on Russian Dollar Bonds maturing in 2027 was trading around 2.5% at the end of last year. On Thursday, the yield hit 18.7%

And the cost of insuring against default on $10,000 worth of these 5 year bonds using credit default swaps climbed to $937 a year on Thursday, from $124 at end of last year.

Since the annexation of Crimea, the Russian Central Bank has built up $600 Billion of reserves to prop up the ruble and provide cheap financiing to local banks.

But make no mistake, the financial pain is very real, and just starting.

concordtom said:

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Looks like Putin's commanders told them to just sit in a holding pattern for time being, tell people they are out of gas - but they are not.

Probably just "showing" their presence while diplomats consider the alleged "negotiations" for Ukraine surrender we had heard about.

As soon as the boss gives the go, they will continue to roll.

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Is that something you're getting from reports or just your speculation?

Not sure I see why Russia would want to wait around. Their whole plan was to blitzkrieg and topple the government quickly. The longer this goes on the more expensive and unpopular it becomes.

DiabloWags said:

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The yield on Russian Dollar Bonds maturing in 2027 was trading around 2.5% at the end of last year. On Thursday, the yield hit 18.7%

And the cost of insuring against default on $10,000 worth of these 5 year bonds using credit default swaps climbed to $937 a year on Thursday, from $124 at end of last year.

Since the annexation of Crimea, the Russian Central Bank has built up $600 Billion of reserves to prop up the ruble and provide cheap financiing to local banks.

But make no mistake, the financial pain is very real, and just starting.

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What's the dollar value of all hydrocarbons traveling from Russia to Europe?
How much product is that?
How can the alliance provide alternative supply?

sycasey said:

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concordtom said:

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Looks like Putin's commanders told them to just sit in a holding pattern for time being, tell people they are out of gas - but they are not.

Probably just "showing" their presence while diplomats consider the alleged "negotiations" for Ukraine surrender we had heard about.

As soon as the boss gives the go, they will continue to roll.

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Is that something you're getting from reports or just your speculation?

Not sure I see why Russia would want to wait around. Their whole plan was to blitzkrieg and topple the government quickly. The longer this goes on the more expensive and unpopular it becomes.

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Just a guess.
Are they THAT disorganized that they can't calculate how much gas would be needed? That they don't have a logistics department that has Gas Trucks traveling with them?

There was an apparent stall in the advance because there might be conversations between Moscow and Zalinsky (sp?) about a surrender.
Zalinsky declined, so now it's apparently back on.

Maybe those guys just wanted to take a leak and smoke. Like he said, "**** off".

Article about Putin's wife, divorced in 2013, and their 2 daughters, spouses and children, and his alleged mistress.
https://metro.co.uk/2022/02/25/is-president-vladimir-putin-married-and-does-he-have-any-children-16174016/

concordtom said:

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DiabloWags said:

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The yield on Russian Dollar Bonds maturing in 2027 was trading around 2.5% at the end of last year. On Thursday, the yield hit 18.7%

And the cost of insuring against default on $10,000 worth of these 5 year bonds using credit default swaps climbed to $937 a year on Thursday, from $124 at end of last year.

Since the annexation of Crimea, the Russian Central Bank has built up $600 Billion of reserves to prop up the ruble and provide cheap financiing to local banks.

But make no mistake, the financial pain is very real, and just starting.

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What's the dollar value of all hydrocarbons traveling from Russia to Europe?
How much product is that?
How can the alliance provide alternative supply?

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How much USA imports:
The vast majority is from Canada, 136,090,000, making up over 50 percent of all imports. From Russia, 17,855,000 barrels were imported, with November's imports being the lowest value of the year, but still 7 percent of all imports.

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Ukraine does not import directly from Russia, but much of the natural gas that the country procures from Europe originates in Russia. On average, the E.U. relies on Russia for 35% of its natural gas - though some countries are more dependent than others.

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Europe gets nearly 40 percent of its natural gas from Russia, and it is likely to be walloped with higher heating bills. Natural gas reserves are running low, and European leaders have accused Russia's president, Vladimir V. Putin, of reducing supplies to gain a political edge.

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70% of all LNG into Europe come from USA, Qatar, and Russia - and Russia has only been in the game for 3.5 years.

I can't believe Putin would effectively kill his exports after only 3.5 yrs.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=51358

sycasey said:

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"Can I tow you back to Russia?"

A priceless exchange of a brave Ukrainian citizen with Russian army stuck out of fuel. ENGLISH SUBTITLES.

[Thanks to my Ukrainian friend for transcription and translation] pic.twitter.com/Rar3WRXEwD

— Ali 🇺🇦🕊 (@aliostad) February 26, 2022

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AWESOME!

Here's a very good primer on global energy sourcing, politics, pricing.

Europe price for LNG is currently 6x the price in USA.
We are so weak. Prices go up 10% and FoxNews claims the sky is falling. Meanwhile, in Europe, they are up 660% from a year ago? Damn. GOPcons should pull their heads out of their misinformation/deflection.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/02/18/now-is-not-the-time-to-limit-u-s-natural-gas-exports/


Russia depends on energy exports for nearly 60% of all the goods and services the country sells abroad.

NordStream2 is nearly complete, but now allies are saying it's a no go as a result of the invasion:

article on how Europe is scrambling to undo Russia gas imports:

https://www.wired.com/story/nordstream2-gas-russia-ukraine/


On February 22, Germany halted the process of certifying the pipeline, an important part of the process of bringing it onstream. A day later, the United States announced sanctions against the company overseeing the Nord Stream 2 project, as well as its leadership. Germany's foreign minister, Annalena Baerbock, said on February 23 that canceling the Nord Stream 2 agreement, which would have helped Europe's energy security, was a difficult decision to make. But it was important. "For us as the German government, it was important to show that for a free and democratic Ukraine, we are willing to also accept consequences for our national economy," she told reporters. "Peace and freedom in Europe don't have a price tag."



While Baerbock said peace and freedom didn't have a price tag, former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev was happier putting a number on the cost of shutting Nord Stream 2 down: "Welcome to the brave new world where Europeans are very soon going to pay 2,000 ($2,225) for 1,000 cubic meters of natural gas," he tweeted. European gas prices rose 12.7 percent the next day to 927 ($1,030) per 1,000 cubic meters.

NBC Nightly News

On Ukrainian television, they're broadcasting instructions on how to make Molotov cocktails," NBC's Richard Engel reported. Axios

concordtom said:

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Are they THAT disorganized that they can't calculate how much gas would be needed? That they don't have a logistics department that has Gas Trucks traveling with them?

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It's pretty simple.
In their rush to get to Kiev, they OUTRAN their supply line.

Big C said:

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You know what really strikes me about all this?

Here we are in the 21st century and we have a major, nuclear power invading another country -- a sovereign nation -- under false pretexts, for the purposes of regime change! I mean, tanks... missiles... heading straight into the capital city and obliterating anyone/anything that tries to stop them!

I can't believe this is happening! Unprecedented!

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USA went after Iraq, but only after Saddam Hussein went into Quwait.
USA went into Iraq again, but only after we invented false evidence about Weapons of Mass Destruction.
USA went into Afgahnistan, but only after we suspected OBL was hiding there.

Russia went into Ukraine, but only because they feared NATO was getting too close to their borders.

It's all defensible.

Pretty big news now breaking . . .

The White House and the EU agree to expel selected Russian Banks from the SWIFT Banking Messaging Platform.

This is highly significant!

DiabloWags said:

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concordtom said:

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Are they THAT disorganized that they can't calculate how much gas would be needed? That they don't have a logistics department that has Gas Trucks traveling with them?

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It's pretty simple.
In their rush to get to Kiev, they OUTRAN their supply line.

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That guy who stopped in the car should have gotten his machine gun, turned around, and come back and wipe them all out as they smoked and talked about women and cigarettes.

DiabloWags said:

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Pretty big news now breaking . . .

The White House and the EU agree to expel selected Russian Banks from SWIFT.
This is highly significant!

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Putin just gave a statement in response.

"That does it, Europe.
I demand that you let me take Ukraine,
that you MUST buy my oil,
and that you send your payment to my bank via SWIFT!

Otherwise, I will nuke your cities."

Poland PM just said Hungary will join Poland in adding sanctions on Russia.

concordtom said:

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Big C said:

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You know what really strikes me about all this?

Here we are in the 21st century and we have a major, nuclear power invading another country -- a sovereign nation -- under false pretexts, for the purposes of regime change! I mean, tanks... missiles... heading straight into the capital city and obliterating anyone/anything that tries to stop them!

I can't believe this is happening! Unprecedented!

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USA went after Iraq, but only after Saddam Hussein went into Quwait.
USA went into Iraq again, but only after we invented false evidence about Weapons of Mass Destruction.
USA went into Afgahnistan, but only after we suspected OBL was hiding there.

Russia went into Ukraine, but only because they feared NATO was getting too close to their borders.

It's all defensible.

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Our 2nd invasion of Iraq is not defensible

concordtom said:

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DiabloWags said:

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Pretty big news now breaking . . .

The White House and the EU agree to expel selected Russian Banks from SWIFT.
This is highly significant!

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Putin just gave a statement in response.

"That does it, Europe.
I demand that you let me take Ukraine,
that you MUST buy my oil,
and that you send your payment to my bank via SWIFT!

Otherwise, I will nuke your cities."

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Please explain why you think this is relevant, or funny, or whatever reason you posted it. Your comments in this conversation lately really contribute nothing. As people are being killed in an invasion, you're trying to crack witty jokes? You're on a par with BearFarce - tons of posts but zero contributions to the discourse.

I obviously cannot verify this, but it's worth a read. https://t.co/137viVHvt5

— Beau of The Fifth Column (@BeauTFC) February 26, 2022

concordtom said:

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DiabloWags said:

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Pretty big news now breaking . . .

The White House and the EU agree to expel selected Russian Banks from SWIFT.
This is highly significant!

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Putin just gave a statement in response.

"That does it, Europe.
I demand that you let me take Ukraine,
that you MUST buy my oil,
and that you send your payment to my bank via SWIFT!

Otherwise, I will nuke your cities."

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Are you drunk Tom?