Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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concordtom said:

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I wake up this morning reading about a missile strike on a train station of fleeing citizens, 39 dead so far.

I won't be surprised when Putin shows up assassinated one day. But the key question is, who's going to do it, and how?
Hitler avoided or survived assassination attempts.

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OK, I'll get the nonsense in before the cretins wake up.

How do we know that missile wasn't launched by those evil Ukrainian masterminds?

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Only you're asking this question, feel free to let us know what you find out . No one is stopping you.

If — as a journalist or citizen — you enjoy being lied to, keep publishing and believing claims from unnamed “US officials.” https://t.co/cO1nO3HqNF

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) April 7, 2022

cbbass1 said:

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BearNIt said:

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sycasey said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Except that the U.S. media & the NeoCons are wanting a few more weeks and months for sanctions to take effect, figuring that they can finally accomplish their dream of regime change in Russia. No one in D.C. is talking about any negotiations or a peace deal.

Is Zelenskyy authorized to lift U.S. sanctions when he talks with Putin? Probably not. No one knows. Ryan Grim, D.C. Bureau Chief for The Intercept, asked this question to Jen Psaki, and got a word salad response. Meanwhile, the rest of the White House Press Corps is asking about no-fly zones and ever-increasing levels of escalation.

It's obvious that Russia does not care one bit about the people of Ukraine. But neither does the U.S. The more Biden & his foreign policy team pin their hopes on regime change, the more the people of Ukraine and Russia suffer.

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Why do you assume that Ukraine and Russia can't reach an agreement only because of the US? If Ukraine wants a peace deal with Russia then they can get one. American sanctions don't force them to avoid a peace deal. Ukraine also can't dictate to the United States about when to end their sanctions regime.

To me it seems more likely they can't reach a deal because Ukraine doesn't want to agree to Russia's demands and/or they don't find any of Putin's promises reliable. I can't really blame the Ukrainians for any of that.

Also, all of this could have been avoided if Russia had just, y'know, not invaded. Not everything is America's fault.

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"American sanctions don't force them to avoid a peace deal. Ukraine also can't dictate to the United States about when to end their sanctions regime."

I don't think Russia is going to agree to any peace deal that doesn't include the lifting of sanctions, neutrality etc...

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At this point, I'm not sure why Ukraine would believe Russia would honor any agreement they signed,

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I think that goes both ways. Putin knows that the U.S. has wanted regime change since the USSR collapsed.

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Putin is not negotiating with the US.

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The losses that the Russian people will suffer will have to be so numerous that every corner of Russia will be touched. It will be at that time that they take a step back and reevaluate the war in Ukraine. This will give enough time that the truth regarding this war will permeate the Russian consciousness and they realize they have been fed a pack of lies and deceived. At this moment that Putin will go the way of all autocrats who have led their countries to the brink. He will lose power and most likely lose his life. Russians will then ponder their role in the destruction of a peaceful country that is their neighbor and the wartime atrocities that were committed by their military.

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If you follow Western media, that's the clear logic, and all the reporting supports that logic.

But that's not the reality. If you look at the history of U.S. economic sanctions, they have the opposite affect. As John Mearsheimer asserts, nationalism is a more potent force than economics. When the U.S. government imposes economic sanctions that hurt everyday people, it validates and reinforces their leader's propaganda, and it increases support for the leader we're trying to get rid of. In effect, the sentiment is, "What does the U.S. government have against us?"

Sanctions don't work, and regime change doesn't work (for the American People -- they work just fine for U.S. defense contractors & oil companies). So the U.S. is effectively risking global thermonuclear war for a strategy that is doomed to fail in the long run, and push Russia toward greater alignment with China, India, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and other nations that are currently under U.S. economic sanctions. It's getting crowded out there.

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Wasn't talking about sanctions, I was talking about the loss of lives of Russian soldiers and the resulting funerals that will take place in every corner of Russia. That will get the attention of the Russian people and cause a reevaluation of their commitment to this war and their leader. The only way that this will be accomplished is through death, unfortunately. The western world cannot and will not allow another Hitler to heap death and destruction on Europe as there are too many reminders of WW II. As you said sanctions won't get the job done and there will be no other alternative to stop a leader and his military that is engaged in repeated war crimes. At some point, there will have to be a reckoning.

Ukraine war: Putin loses NINTH colonel as tank commander becomes latest Russian officer to be killed | Daily Mail Online


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10702421/Ukraine-war-Putin-loses-NINTH-colonel-tank-commander-latest-Russian-officer-killed.html

I'm thinking if Col. Klink was a Russian, Putin would post him to the Ukraine.

Why the battle for Donbas will be very different from the assault on Kyiv


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/09/donbas-ukraine-russia-battle-very-different-from-kyiv-?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Satellite pictures show an 8-mile Russian convoy of armored vehicles, towed artillery, and support vehicles headed east and south in Ukraine for the massive battles that are expected. On a more positive note, it appears that Zelinsky will get what he is asking for sans the Raptor and the Stealth Fighter. The U.S. has begun backfilling those countries that send Soviet weapon systems to Ukraine which the Ukrainians already know how to operate. The only question is the speed at which the weapons arrive in Ukraine and can get to the south and east.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/chilling-image-shows-eight-mile-26679975

https://news.yahoo.com/satellite-imagery-shows-eight-mile-080427123.html

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-04-10-22/h_892b884ecacd2ed726131bca647d5627

Unit2Sucks said:

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Day 46 of my 3 day war. Ukraine is on fast track to join EU while Sweden & Finland are poised to join NATO.

I remain a master strategist.

— Darth Putin (@DarthPutinKGB) April 10, 2022

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He's also destroyed Russia's economy and made them an international pariah. He's a FREAKIN SUPER GENIUS!

New Russian general installed to run the war. How about a pool on how long he stays alive given the longevity of past generals?

Unit2Sucks said:

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Day 46 of my 3 day war. Ukraine is on fast track to join EU while Sweden & Finland are poised to join NATO.

I remain a master strategist.

— Darth Putin (@DarthPutinKGB) April 10, 2022

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And Russia has already attacked Finland through cyber warfare.

But the russian propaganda trolls will still say its the US' fault for expanding NATO and Finland is just a puppet government of the US.

Grrrrrr @ this whole situation

What happened to the human race? I thought evolution (doing better/doing right by the next man was the goal) but no it's a race to the bottom(extinction) in too many ways be it there or here or elsewhere. We(collectively) can not get it together at all.

going4roses said:

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Grrrrrr @ this whole situation

What happened to the human race? I thought evolution (doing better/doing right by the next man was the goal) but no it's a race to the bottom(extinction) in too many ways be it there or here or elsewhere. We(collectively) can not get it together at all.

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Well, one positive thus far is that other countries (including the US) have thus far managed to avoid getting involved militarily and have opposed Russia's action through largely peaceful means. That usually wasn't the case in the past.

cbbass1 said:

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Sanctions don't work, and regime change doesn't work (for the American People -- they work just fine for U.S. defense contractors & oil companies).

So the U.S. is effectively risking global thermonuclear war for a strategy that is doomed to fail in the long run, and push Russia toward greater alignment with China, India, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and other nations that are currently under U.S. economic sanctions. It's getting crowded out there.

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What's your policy solution?

cbbass1 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Sanctions don't work, and regime change doesn't work (for the American People -- they work just fine for U.S. defense contractors & oil companies).

So the U.S. is effectively risking global thermonuclear war for a strategy that is doomed to fail in the long run, and push Russia toward greater alignment with China, India, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and other nations that are currently under U.S. economic sanctions. It's getting crowded out there.

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What's your policy solution?

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Negotiate a settlement ASAP, have Ukraine commit to neutrality / no NATO. End sanctions; stop push for regime change.

Putin, Zelenskyy, Russians, and Ukrainians are ready for this war to end. The U.S. is still pushing for regime change, escalation, and "giving the sanctions more time to work."

Everyone is ready to make a peace deal, except for the U.S.

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Why are you volunteering Ukraine for a solution that only benefits Russia? If Ukraine wants to commit to neutrality / non NATO in exchange for a cease fire with Russia and whatever else it wants, it's certainly free to do so. I don't think the US should be dictating terms the way you believe we should be.

Unit2Sucks said:

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cbbass1 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Sanctions don't work, and regime change doesn't work (for the American People -- they work just fine for U.S. defense contractors & oil companies).

So the U.S. is effectively risking global thermonuclear war for a strategy that is doomed to fail in the long run, and push Russia toward greater alignment with China, India, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and other nations that are currently under U.S. economic sanctions. It's getting crowded out there.

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What's your policy solution?

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Negotiate a settlement ASAP, have Ukraine commit to neutrality / no NATO. End sanctions; stop push for regime change.

Putin, Zelenskyy, Russians, and Ukrainians are ready for this war to end. The U.S. is still pushing for regime change, escalation, and "giving the sanctions more time to work."

Everyone is ready to make a peace deal, except for the U.S.

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Why are you volunteering Ukraine for a solution that only benefits Russia? If Ukraine wants to commit to neutrality / non NATO in exchange for a cease fire with Russia and whatever else it wants, it's certainly free to do so. I don't think the US should be dictating terms the way you believe we should be.

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Ukraine has essentially already agreed to non NATO/ neutrality which is also the position of the allies so I don't know why the US would object

Anarchistbear said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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cbbass1 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Sanctions don't work, and regime change doesn't work (for the American People -- they work just fine for U.S. defense contractors & oil companies).

So the U.S. is effectively risking global thermonuclear war for a strategy that is doomed to fail in the long run, and push Russia toward greater alignment with China, India, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and other nations that are currently under U.S. economic sanctions. It's getting crowded out there.

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What's your policy solution?

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Negotiate a settlement ASAP, have Ukraine commit to neutrality / no NATO. End sanctions; stop push for regime change.

Putin, Zelenskyy, Russians, and Ukrainians are ready for this war to end. The U.S. is still pushing for regime change, escalation, and "giving the sanctions more time to work."

Everyone is ready to make a peace deal, except for the U.S.

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Why are you volunteering Ukraine for a solution that only benefits Russia? If Ukraine wants to commit to neutrality / non NATO in exchange for a cease fire with Russia and whatever else it wants, it's certainly free to do so. I don't think the US should be dictating terms the way you believe we should be.

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Ukraine has essentially already agreed to non NATO/ neutrality which is also the position of the allies so I do t know why the US would object

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No one is talking about whether the US should object to a bilateral agreement between Ukraine and Putin. Cbb is advocating for the US to be a party to the agreement.

Unit2Sucks said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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cbbass1 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Sanctions don't work, and regime change doesn't work (for the American People -- they work just fine for U.S. defense contractors & oil companies).

So the U.S. is effectively risking global thermonuclear war for a strategy that is doomed to fail in the long run, and push Russia toward greater alignment with China, India, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and other nations that are currently under U.S. economic sanctions. It's getting crowded out there.

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What's your policy solution?

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Negotiate a settlement ASAP, have Ukraine commit to neutrality / no NATO. End sanctions; stop push for regime change.

Putin, Zelenskyy, Russians, and Ukrainians are ready for this war to end. The U.S. is still pushing for regime change, escalation, and "giving the sanctions more time to work."

Everyone is ready to make a peace deal, except for the U.S.

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Why are you volunteering Ukraine for a solution that only benefits Russia? If Ukraine wants to commit to neutrality / non NATO in exchange for a cease fire with Russia and whatever else it wants, it's certainly free to do so. I don't think the US should be dictating terms the way you believe we should be.

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Ukraine has essentially already agreed to non NATO/ neutrality which is also the position of the allies so I do t know why the US would object

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No one is talking about whether the US should object to a bilateral agreement between Ukraine and Putin. Cbb is advocating for the US to be a party to the agreement.

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The part about NATO has basically been figured out: Ukraine will agree not to join "NATO" and be "independent", but as soon as the Russians leave, Ukraine will surely be aligned with the West, militarily.

Right now, it's all about some sort of solution for eastern and southeastern "Ukraine". Something where Putin feels like he's saving face, but something that also doesn't amount to anything too significant. Maybe some of that territory can call themselves independent or at least be demilitarized.

I think the key is going to be what comes of Russia after Putin.

Russia's May 9 holiday will be pivotal deadline in Ukraine war


https://www.axios.com/russia-may-9-deadline-ukraine-518f2560-683c-4979-9c24-4cc05d24d66b.html

DiabloWags said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Everyone is ready to make a peace deal, except for the U.S.

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Are you high?

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Does this sort of thing bother the people who think the US should broker a peace deal where Russia accomplishes its goals with no repercussions? Should Ukraine just acknowledge that Putin is willing to commit war crimes and atrocities and that they should stop fighting because the world prefers stability and cheap gas?

BREAKING:

Another mass grave has been discovered near Kyiv.

50 civilians shot by Russian troops have been found near a road leading to the village of Buzovaya.

In the village itself, another mass grave with dozens of bodies has been found.

This is the Russian way of warfare. pic.twitter.com/ssAK9PictF

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) April 10, 2022

Wave of Russian dissent against Putin's war hits social media



https://mol.im/a/10706827

Inside wartime Russia, Putin isn't losing


https://www.axios.com/russia-putin-war-ukraine-134083e0-5a2a-48bc-910d-aad3b61eb4d5.html

" The more horrific the allegations against Russia such as the apparent massacre of civilians in Bucha the stronger the impulse to reject them as lies, says Grigory Yudin, a sociologist at the Moscow School of Social and Economic Sciences.

… Anything or anyone that doesn't support the Kremlin line is being suppressed. Demonstrators and journalists face up to 15 years in prison for protesting the war or reporting truthfully on it. The protests that began after the invasion have largely died down.

… 81% of Russians approved of the invasion as of March 30, and Vladimir Putin's approval rating has climbed to 83%, according to Levada's polling though the fact that opposition to the war has been criminalized makes those numbers harder to interpret."

See John Lennon's Son Julian Lennon Perform 'Imagine' for 1st Time


https://www.today.com/popculture/music/see-john-lennons-son-julian-lennon-perform-imagine-1st-time-rcna23771

bearister said:

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Inside wartime Russia, Putin isn't losing


https://www.axios.com/russia-putin-war-ukraine-134083e0-5a2a-48bc-910d-aad3b61eb4d5.html

" The more horrific the allegations against Russia such as the apparent massacre of civilians in Bucha the stronger the impulse to reject them as lies, says Grigory Yudin, a sociologist at the Moscow School of Social and Economic Sciences.

… Anything or anyone that doesn't support the Kremlin line is being suppressed. Demonstrators and journalists face up to 15 years in prison for protesting the war or reporting truthfully on it. The protests that began after the invasion have largely died down.

… 81% of Russians approved of the invasion as of March 30, and Vladimir Putin's approval rating has climbed to 83%, according to Levada's polling though the fact that opposition to the war has been criminalized makes those numbers harder to interpret."

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Like Maggie Thatcher & the Falklands War...

The U.S. push for regime change in Russia validates Putin's propaganda. The effect is to consolidate support.

Matt Taibbi: "Regime Change Doesn't Work, You Morons!"

cbbass1 said:

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bearister said:

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Inside wartime Russia, Putin isn't losing


https://www.axios.com/russia-putin-war-ukraine-134083e0-5a2a-48bc-910d-aad3b61eb4d5.html

" The more horrific the allegations against Russia such as the apparent massacre of civilians in Bucha the stronger the impulse to reject them as lies, says Grigory Yudin, a sociologist at the Moscow School of Social and Economic Sciences.

… Anything or anyone that doesn't support the Kremlin line is being suppressed. Demonstrators and journalists face up to 15 years in prison for protesting the war or reporting truthfully on it. The protests that began after the invasion have largely died down.

… 81% of Russians approved of the invasion as of March 30, and Vladimir Putin's approval rating has climbed to 83%, according to Levada's polling though the fact that opposition to the war has been criminalized makes those numbers harder to interpret."

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Like Maggie Thatcher & the Falklands War...

The U.S. push for regime change in Russia validates Putin's propaganda. The effect is to consolidate support.

Matt Taibbi: "Regime Change Doesn't Work, You Morons!"

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I agree that regime change doesn't work.

Putin should probably stop trying to force it.

cbbass1 said:

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Putin, Zelenskyy, Russians, and Ukrainians are ready for this war to end. The U.S. is still pushing for regime change, escalation, and "giving the sanctions more time to work."

Everyone is ready to make a peace deal, except for the U.S.

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There is absolutely no evidence to support your claim.
In fact, quite the opposite.

Putin says peace talks are at a "dead end"

Putin says peace talks at 'dead end,' US 'deeply' concerned about chemical weapons: Live Ukraine updates (yahoo.com)

Hubris and isolation led Vladimir Putin to misjudge Ukraine


https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/04/11/putin-misjudged-ukraine-hubris-isolation/

" The Russian leader notoriously doesn't use a smartphone and rarely accesses the Internet. He spent years snuffing out Russian independent news and erecting an authoritarian system of government devoid of constructive feedback or dissent. By early this year, according to U.S. and European officials, he was operating in an echo chamber, surrounded by advisers who, according to Galeotti, "had learned you do not bring bad news to the czar's table." Putin's isolation, the officials said, had been compounded by the coronavirus and his limited contact with others.

… Putin's misconception about Ukrainian weakness was paired with a swaggering view of Russian power. He famously boasted to a top European official in late 2014 that he could easily seize Kyiv "in two weeks" if he desired a misconception he appeared to continue believing until he attempted to do so.

"He has an unwavering belief in his ability to control events," a senior NATO intelligence official said.

Perhaps no moment underscored the level of misconception more than the attempt by elite Russian paratroopers at the outset of the invasion to land at the Hostomel cargo airport northwest of Kyiv apparently with the intention of sweeping breezily into the Ukrainian capital.

"Just looking at how this played out, it feels there was an enormous amount of arrogance," a European official said. "You look at the insertion of the airborne forces at Hostomel airport, which was clearly designed to do a decapitation [mission] in Kyiv and they got smashed."

bearister said:

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Inside wartime Russia, Putin isn't losing


https://www.axios.com/russia-putin-war-ukraine-134083e0-5a2a-48bc-910d-aad3b61eb4d5.html

" The more horrific the allegations against Russia such as the apparent massacre of civilians in Bucha the stronger the impulse to reject them as lies, says Grigory Yudin, a sociologist at the Moscow School of Social and Economic Sciences.

… Anything or anyone that doesn't support the Kremlin line is being suppressed. Demonstrators and journalists face up to 15 years in prison for protesting the war or reporting truthfully on it. The protests that began after the invasion have largely died down.

… 81% of Russians approved of the invasion as of March 30, and Vladimir Putin's approval rating has climbed to 83%, according to Levada's polling though the fact that opposition to the war has been criminalized makes those numbers harder to interpret."

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There is a natural tendency to support your own country in a time of war, especially when you only hear one side of the story. That certainly can't last too long, but a lot of bad can happen in only a couple of months. Heck, it already has.

And while not at the top of my sympathy list, I kind of feel bad for the Russian soldiers, getting thrown into this mess without really knowing what they were getting into. Any that committed atrocities, that's on them and horrible, but human beings will do stuff when put in a crucible like that. It will be interesting to see what level of the Russian army sanctioned actions like that.

What a mess. By now, if not last month, there has got to be people fairly high up in the Russian government/military/oligarchy who are thinking if there might be a way to make a regime change in their own country instead of Ukraine.