The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

918,507 Views | 10130 Replies | Last: 8 hrs ago by movielover
Cal88
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The Pope, Mearsheimer, Kissinger, Noam Chomsky - all Russian trolls.

Seriously though, Pope Francis is an Argentinian Jesuit, so immersed in the leftist Catholic tradition of Latin America which is more inclined to support the non-aligned block, as opposed to say John Paul II who as a Pole was a staunch atlantist.


Pretty grim assessment of the scale of the carnage in the current artillery war in the Donbass, confirms what I've heard earlier this month:


sycasey
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Indeed, these deaths are unacceptable and Putin should call off his invasion immediately.
Cal88
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golden sloth said:

BearForce2 said:

"President Biden on Wednesday said the US will deliver another $1 billion worth of military equipment to Ukraine, including weapons to defend the country's coast."

Total US cost of this war after just under 4 months: $55 billion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/15/world/europe/us-defense-secretary-lloyd-austin-military-aid-ukraine.html?smid=url-share
IMO, that is money well spent.

Throwing money and bodies into this fight is not likely to change the final outcome, it will only add to the body count and the misery. The plucky underdog with western wonderweapons narrative has played itself out, once Russia regrouped and run its offense, the outcome was nearly certain - Kansas vs. Nebraska.

Ukraine should have accepted the initial offer of ceding Crimea (which was pretty much a fait accompli, and done with the support of the local population), granting autonomy to the two Donbass rebel regions and staying out of NATO. Instead they believed they could have militarily defeated Russia with the US' support, and also thought that they could maneuver NATO into the fight and tilt the scale. Arestovich and the other Ukrainian policy makers knew all along they couldn't beat Russia without NATO boots on the ground, that's why he predicted a very long war vs Russia extending to the 2030s. That's not a good thing from the perspective of the average Ukrainian.

US policy planners as well were happy to use Ukraine as a cannon fodder to bleed Russia, the same way they backed the Mujahideen to bleed the Soviets in Afghanistan...

The more this war goes on, the more territory Ukraine stands to lose. Ukraine with a more pragmatic stance could still hold on to its second city, Kharkiv, as well as Odessa and its coastline. It's going to end up losing all of historic Novorossiya unless it reverses course and takes the L. That's why you have hawks like NATO boss Jens Stoltenberg now pragmatically floating the idea of Ukraine ceding territory for peace, essentially converging towards Kissinger's recommendation.

Ukraine's situation today is similar to that of Japan in late Summer 1945. Japan managed to save Hokkaido from permanent Soviet occupation by unconditionally surrendering to the Allies. Back in that Summer, their fear of losing territory to the USSR was at least as great as their fear of nuclear devastation, and might have been a greater impetus for them surrendering to the US.

Japan had already lost their half of Sakhalin Island to the Soviets in august of 1945, territory they knew that they would never recover, with Russia having settled the northern half of the island in the 19th century, and were fully cognisant that they were about to lose Hokkaido for good:
Quote:

In the last days of World War II, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan, as Stalin secretly agreed at Tehran and Yalta. The Soviet declaration of war was a major factor for the surrender of Japan on August 15. Although all other Allies, including the United States, ceased all hostilities upon the surrender, Stalin ordered his troops to continue fighting to capture more Japanese territory: 28 and put the Soviets in a stronger bargaining position to occupy Japan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Soviet_invasion_of_Hokkaido

Unfortunately I don't see Ukraine changing course, the most likely outcome to the war is this final partition map, or something very close to it, with the red parts outright annexed by Russia:


Unit2Sucks
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Has Cal88 ever explained why he roots so hard for Putin and Russia?
BearForce2
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Biden waived U.S. sanctions on Russia's Nord Steam 2 pipeline .
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
BearForce2
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The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
Unit2Sucks
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Excited to hear Cal88's breathless appreciation for Russia's war crimes.

bearister
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Russia-Ukraine war: what we know on day 114 of the invasion


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/17/russia-ukraine-war-what-we-know-on-day-114-of-the-invasion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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Big C
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Unit2Sucks said:

Excited to hear Cal88's breathless appreciation for Russia's war crimes.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you mischaracterizing Cal88's stance on this situation? I mean, I get it, exaggerating for effect, but c'mon.
bearister
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What happened in the Russia-Ukraine war this week? Catch up with the must-read news and analysis


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/18/what-happened-in-the-russia-ukraine-war-this-week-catch-up-with-the-must-read-news-and-analysis?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Unit2Sucks
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Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Excited to hear Cal88's breathless appreciation for Russia's war crimes.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you mischaracterizing Cal88's stance on this situation? I mean, I get it, exaggerating for effect, but c'mon.
Am I? He's been a staunch proponent for Russia and Putin for over a decade on BI. He's been frontrunning this war from his first post about it and has yet to criticize Russia for the "special military operation", let alone its war crimes.

Hint: if he wanted to criticize Russia or Putin, he's had plenty of opportunity to do so and has declined every time.
Big C
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Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Excited to hear Cal88's breathless appreciation for Russia's war crimes.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you mischaracterizing Cal88's stance on this situation? I mean, I get it, exaggerating for effect, but c'mon.
Am I? He's been a staunch proponent for Russia and Putin for over a decade on BI. He's been frontrunning this war from his first post about it and has yet to criticize Russia for the "special military operation", let alone its war crimes.

Hint: if he wanted to criticize Russia or Putin, he's had plenty of opportunity to do so and has declined every time.

If that's true (and I'm not sure that it is), let me take this time to differentiate my own position: I believe it was a mistake to talk about Ukraine joining NATO -- where has it gotten us all? -- but the current Russia-Ukraine thing is all on Putin.

Putin is a b******.
Unit2Sucks
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Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Excited to hear Cal88's breathless appreciation for Russia's war crimes.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you mischaracterizing Cal88's stance on this situation? I mean, I get it, exaggerating for effect, but c'mon.
Am I? He's been a staunch proponent for Russia and Putin for over a decade on BI. He's been frontrunning this war from his first post about it and has yet to criticize Russia for the "special military operation", let alone its war crimes.

Hint: if he wanted to criticize Russia or Putin, he's had plenty of opportunity to do so and has declined every time.

If that's true (and I'm not sure that it is), let me take this time to differentiate my own position: I believe it was a mistake to talk about Ukraine joining NATO -- where has it gotten us all? -- but the current Russia-Ukraine thing is all on Putin.

Putin is a b******.

This is a version of "she had it coming." Ukraine is a sovereign with the right to self-determination. Russia is a ****hole petro-state that doesn't have the right to choose who its neighbors associate with and doesn't need us to excuse its violation of international law. Russia's economy is smaller than Texas and smaller than Italy. At this point its economy is smaller than Brazil and Australia.

It doesn't get to dictate terms and we shouldn't pretend like protecting its "interests" is reasonable. The only reason it matters on the world stage at this point is because Putin is a terrorist with state power, like Kim Jong Un and the ayatollah. He's closer to a Taliban leader than he is a world leader.

And let's be real, this NATO non-sense isn't the reason Putin decided to invade Ukraine. Cal88 has been amplifying all of the propaganda including pretending that it was about Nazis, pretending it was to protect Russian speaking people in Ukraine, and pretending that it was in order to free Russian people in Ukraine who really wanted to be part of Russia. The NATO stuff is a sideshow which should surprise no one. If Putin is telling you his reason for something, you can be pretty damn sure it's not the real reason. Don't fall for Putin's BS.
sonofabear51
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Agreed. Russia has always been a big liar. Nothing has changed. Police state country. Been there once. Great things to see, but the government sucks. Almost arrested in Red Square for taking pictures. Never again. Once was enough.
Start Slowly and taper off
Big C
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Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Excited to hear Cal88's breathless appreciation for Russia's war crimes.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you mischaracterizing Cal88's stance on this situation? I mean, I get it, exaggerating for effect, but c'mon.
Am I? He's been a staunch proponent for Russia and Putin for over a decade on BI. He's been frontrunning this war from his first post about it and has yet to criticize Russia for the "special military operation", let alone its war crimes.

Hint: if he wanted to criticize Russia or Putin, he's had plenty of opportunity to do so and has declined every time.

If that's true (and I'm not sure that it is), let me take this time to differentiate my own position: I believe it was a mistake to talk about Ukraine joining NATO -- where has it gotten us all? -- but the current Russia-Ukraine thing is all on Putin.

Putin is a b******.

This is a version of "she had it coming." Ukraine is a sovereign with the right to self-determination. Russia is a ****hole petro-state that doesn't have the right to choose who its neighbors associate with and doesn't need us to excuse its violation of international law. Russia's economy is smaller than Texas and smaller than Italy. At this point its economy is smaller than Brazil and Australia.

It doesn't get to dictate terms and we shouldn't pretend like protecting its "interests" is reasonable. The only reason it matters on the world stage at this point is because Putin is a terrorist with state power, like Kim Jong Un and the ayatollah. He's closer to a Taliban leader than he is a world leader.

And let's be real, this NATO non-sense isn't the reason Putin decided to invade Ukraine. Cal88 has been amplifying all of the propaganda including pretending that it was about Nazis, pretending it was to protect Russian speaking people in Ukraine, and pretending that it was in order to free Russian people in Ukraine who really wanted to be part of Russia. The NATO stuff is a sideshow which should surprise no one. If Putin is telling you his reason for something, you can be pretty damn sure it's not the real reason. Don't fall for Putin's BS.

Just speaking for myself, don't fall for people who have told you that I have fallen for Putin's BS and base my opinions on international relations on what Putin says.

NATO drawing the line before Ukraine might have worked. Admittedly, it also might not have worked. But what we have done to date has certainly not worked. We're sitting here in the Bay Area with our Cal diplomas, easily weathering the $6,69/gallon gas (just filled up this afternoon). Meanwhile, Ukraine has become a hell hole. This is not working for them.

I'm not sure to what extent Call88 and I agree here, but please do not paint me as Putin's pawn. I am as anti-Putin as the next guy, but it's a question of what foreign policy produces the best long-term results, for us and for the world. The question is surely up for debate, especially looking at where we are now.
Unit2Sucks
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Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Excited to hear Cal88's breathless appreciation for Russia's war crimes.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you mischaracterizing Cal88's stance on this situation? I mean, I get it, exaggerating for effect, but c'mon.
Am I? He's been a staunch proponent for Russia and Putin for over a decade on BI. He's been frontrunning this war from his first post about it and has yet to criticize Russia for the "special military operation", let alone its war crimes.

Hint: if he wanted to criticize Russia or Putin, he's had plenty of opportunity to do so and has declined every time.

If that's true (and I'm not sure that it is), let me take this time to differentiate my own position: I believe it was a mistake to talk about Ukraine joining NATO -- where has it gotten us all? -- but the current Russia-Ukraine thing is all on Putin.

Putin is a b******.

This is a version of "she had it coming." Ukraine is a sovereign with the right to self-determination. Russia is a ****hole petro-state that doesn't have the right to choose who its neighbors associate with and doesn't need us to excuse its violation of international law. Russia's economy is smaller than Texas and smaller than Italy. At this point its economy is smaller than Brazil and Australia.

It doesn't get to dictate terms and we shouldn't pretend like protecting its "interests" is reasonable. The only reason it matters on the world stage at this point is because Putin is a terrorist with state power, like Kim Jong Un and the ayatollah. He's closer to a Taliban leader than he is a world leader.

And let's be real, this NATO non-sense isn't the reason Putin decided to invade Ukraine. Cal88 has been amplifying all of the propaganda including pretending that it was about Nazis, pretending it was to protect Russian speaking people in Ukraine, and pretending that it was in order to free Russian people in Ukraine who really wanted to be part of Russia. The NATO stuff is a sideshow which should surprise no one. If Putin is telling you his reason for something, you can be pretty damn sure it's not the real reason. Don't fall for Putin's BS.

Just speaking for myself, don't fall for people who have told you that I have fallen for Putin's BS and base my opinions on international relations on what Putin says.

NATO drawing the line before Ukraine might have worked. Admittedly, it also might not have worked. But what we have done to date has certainly not worked. We're sitting here in the Bay Area with our Cal diplomas, easily weathering the $6,69/gallon gas (just filled up this afternoon). Meanwhile, Ukraine has become a hell hole. This is not working for them.

I'm not sure to what extent Call88 and I agree here, but please do not paint me as Putin's pawn. I am as anti-Putin as the next guy, but it's a question of what foreign policy produces the best long-term results, for us and for the world. The question is surely up for debate, especially looking at where we are now.
I'm not disputing that it's theoretically possible that appeasement would have reduced the short or long-term death toll for both Russians and Ukrainians.

The issue I have is that when people characterize the decision not to appease Putin's every whim without acknowledging explicitly that he is unilaterally the bad actor here, it serves to shift blame to the victim. The same thing has happened numerous times throughout history whether we are talking about victims of domestic abuse, sexual assault or armed conflict.

It doesn't make sense to say that Ukraine could have avoided war by allowing Russia to annex the country without any resistance any more than we could have avoided WWII after pearl harbor by simply turning the other cheek. This war isn't happening because of Ukraine's choices, it's happening because of Putin's. We should never lose sight of that or shift blame. Doing so turns this a unilateral violation of sovereignty into an apportionment of blame or he said she said.
BearForce2
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sonofabear51 said:

Agreed. Russia has always been a big liar. Nothing has changed. Police state country. Been there once. Great things to see, but the government sucks. Almost arrested in Red Square for taking pictures. Never again. Once was enough.

According to the Corruptions Perceptions Index, Russia is near the bottom of the list i(#136) in terms of being perceived as corrupt but Ukraine is not much better (#122). Unit2 has a soft spot for Ukrainian oligarchs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#:~:text=The%20index%20is%20published%20annually,2020%20and%2030%20April%202021.
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
Sebastabear
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For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare
BearForce2
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Sent by God to manspread and trigger Hillary.
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
BearForce2
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Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
Sebastabear
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BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.
Yes because history began in the 20th Century. And for the record we are well into the 21st century and most of the wars in this century have been triggered by some group claiming they were acting on behalf of God. This never ends well.
going4roses
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BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.


Nobody has murdered raped brutalized people across the planet like racist Christian colonizers. Not even going to mention the wealth stolen
Tell someone you love them and try to have a good day
BearForce2
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Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.
Yes because history began in the 20th Century. And for the record we are well into the 21st century and most of the wars in this century have been triggered by some group claiming they were acting on behalf of God. This never ends well.

Lenin and Stalin make Putin look like little Pete Buttigieg. You still want to send our billions over?
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
oski003
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going4roses said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.


Nobody has murdered raped brutalized people across the planet like racist Christian colonizers. Not even going to mention the wealth stolen


Should we invade Britain?
Big C
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Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Excited to hear Cal88's breathless appreciation for Russia's war crimes.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you mischaracterizing Cal88's stance on this situation? I mean, I get it, exaggerating for effect, but c'mon.
Am I? He's been a staunch proponent for Russia and Putin for over a decade on BI. He's been frontrunning this war from his first post about it and has yet to criticize Russia for the "special military operation", let alone its war crimes.

Hint: if he wanted to criticize Russia or Putin, he's had plenty of opportunity to do so and has declined every time.

If that's true (and I'm not sure that it is), let me take this time to differentiate my own position: I believe it was a mistake to talk about Ukraine joining NATO -- where has it gotten us all? -- but the current Russia-Ukraine thing is all on Putin.

Putin is a b******.

This is a version of "she had it coming." Ukraine is a sovereign with the right to self-determination. Russia is a ****hole petro-state that doesn't have the right to choose who its neighbors associate with and doesn't need us to excuse its violation of international law. Russia's economy is smaller than Texas and smaller than Italy. At this point its economy is smaller than Brazil and Australia.

It doesn't get to dictate terms and we shouldn't pretend like protecting its "interests" is reasonable. The only reason it matters on the world stage at this point is because Putin is a terrorist with state power, like Kim Jong Un and the ayatollah. He's closer to a Taliban leader than he is a world leader.

And let's be real, this NATO non-sense isn't the reason Putin decided to invade Ukraine. Cal88 has been amplifying all of the propaganda including pretending that it was about Nazis, pretending it was to protect Russian speaking people in Ukraine, and pretending that it was in order to free Russian people in Ukraine who really wanted to be part of Russia. The NATO stuff is a sideshow which should surprise no one. If Putin is telling you his reason for something, you can be pretty damn sure it's not the real reason. Don't fall for Putin's BS.

Just speaking for myself, don't fall for people who have told you that I have fallen for Putin's BS and base my opinions on international relations on what Putin says.

NATO drawing the line before Ukraine might have worked. Admittedly, it also might not have worked. But what we have done to date has certainly not worked. We're sitting here in the Bay Area with our Cal diplomas, easily weathering the $6,69/gallon gas (just filled up this afternoon). Meanwhile, Ukraine has become a hell hole. This is not working for them.

I'm not sure to what extent Call88 and I agree here, but please do not paint me as Putin's pawn. I am as anti-Putin as the next guy, but it's a question of what foreign policy produces the best long-term results, for us and for the world. The question is surely up for debate, especially looking at where we are now.
I'm not disputing that it's theoretically possible that appeasement would have reduced the short or long-term death toll for both Russians and Ukrainians.

The issue I have is that when people characterize the decision not to appease Putin's every whim without acknowledging explicitly that he is unilaterally the bad actor here, it serves to shift blame to the victim. The same thing has happened numerous times throughout history whether we are talking about victims of domestic abuse, sexual assault or armed conflict.

It doesn't make sense to say that Ukraine could have avoided war by allowing Russia to annex the country without any resistance any more than we could have avoided WWII after pearl harbor by simply turning the other cheek. This war isn't happening because of Ukraine's choices, it's happening because of Putin's. We should never lose sight of that or shift blame. Doing so turns this a unilateral violation of sovereignty into an apportionment of blame or he said she said.

Putin is unquestionably the bad actor here. When he attacked Ukraine, we had no other reasonable choice other than to support the Ukrainians militarily. Just speaking for myself, I have never said otherwise; I am all for what we have done in 2022 to stop Putin. Questioning some of our policy decisions in the 20-30 year lead-up to this does not constitute "blaming the victim".
bearister
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oski003 said:

going4roses said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.


Nobody has murdered raped brutalized people across the planet like racist Christian colonizers. Not even going to mention the wealth stolen


Should we invade Britain?


Yes.

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
AunBear89
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BearForce2 said:



Sent by God to manspread and trigger Hillary.

BearFarce is just another Putin Fanboy.


He isn't having sex with you - just like Trump and Dinesh aren't.

Poso might. And I'm sure Don Jr is up for anything if you bring enough blow.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
sycasey
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Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Excited to hear Cal88's breathless appreciation for Russia's war crimes.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you mischaracterizing Cal88's stance on this situation? I mean, I get it, exaggerating for effect, but c'mon.
Am I? He's been a staunch proponent for Russia and Putin for over a decade on BI. He's been frontrunning this war from his first post about it and has yet to criticize Russia for the "special military operation", let alone its war crimes.

Hint: if he wanted to criticize Russia or Putin, he's had plenty of opportunity to do so and has declined every time.

If that's true (and I'm not sure that it is), let me take this time to differentiate my own position: I believe it was a mistake to talk about Ukraine joining NATO -- where has it gotten us all? -- but the current Russia-Ukraine thing is all on Putin.

Putin is a b******.

This is a version of "she had it coming." Ukraine is a sovereign with the right to self-determination. Russia is a ****hole petro-state that doesn't have the right to choose who its neighbors associate with and doesn't need us to excuse its violation of international law. Russia's economy is smaller than Texas and smaller than Italy. At this point its economy is smaller than Brazil and Australia.

It doesn't get to dictate terms and we shouldn't pretend like protecting its "interests" is reasonable. The only reason it matters on the world stage at this point is because Putin is a terrorist with state power, like Kim Jong Un and the ayatollah. He's closer to a Taliban leader than he is a world leader.

And let's be real, this NATO non-sense isn't the reason Putin decided to invade Ukraine. Cal88 has been amplifying all of the propaganda including pretending that it was about Nazis, pretending it was to protect Russian speaking people in Ukraine, and pretending that it was in order to free Russian people in Ukraine who really wanted to be part of Russia. The NATO stuff is a sideshow which should surprise no one. If Putin is telling you his reason for something, you can be pretty damn sure it's not the real reason. Don't fall for Putin's BS.

Just speaking for myself, don't fall for people who have told you that I have fallen for Putin's BS and base my opinions on international relations on what Putin says.

NATO drawing the line before Ukraine might have worked. Admittedly, it also might not have worked. But what we have done to date has certainly not worked. We're sitting here in the Bay Area with our Cal diplomas, easily weathering the $6,69/gallon gas (just filled up this afternoon). Meanwhile, Ukraine has become a hell hole. This is not working for them.

I'm not sure to what extent Call88 and I agree here, but please do not paint me as Putin's pawn. I am as anti-Putin as the next guy, but it's a question of what foreign policy produces the best long-term results, for us and for the world. The question is surely up for debate, especially looking at where we are now.
I'm not disputing that it's theoretically possible that appeasement would have reduced the short or long-term death toll for both Russians and Ukrainians.

The issue I have is that when people characterize the decision not to appease Putin's every whim without acknowledging explicitly that he is unilaterally the bad actor here, it serves to shift blame to the victim. The same thing has happened numerous times throughout history whether we are talking about victims of domestic abuse, sexual assault or armed conflict.

It doesn't make sense to say that Ukraine could have avoided war by allowing Russia to annex the country without any resistance any more than we could have avoided WWII after pearl harbor by simply turning the other cheek. This war isn't happening because of Ukraine's choices, it's happening because of Putin's. We should never lose sight of that or shift blame. Doing so turns this a unilateral violation of sovereignty into an apportionment of blame or he said she said.

Putin is unquestionably the bad actor here. When he attacked Ukraine, we had no other reasonable choice other than to support the Ukrainians militarily. Just speaking for myself, I have never said otherwise; I am all for what we have done in 2022 to stop Putin.. Questioning some of our policy decisions in the 20-30 year lead-up to this does not constitute "blaming the victim".

Seems to me that if you want to blame the US or "The West" for anything in the past, it was in not doing some kind of Marshall Plan for Russia after the USSR collapsed. Instead we just kind of let predatory capitalists take them over while democracy failed.

Any NATO expansion afterward is just in response to Russia's continued imperialist threats.
Sebastabear
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BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.
Yes because history began in the 20th Century. And for the record we are well into the 21st century and most of the wars in this century have been triggered by some group claiming they were acting on behalf of God. This never ends well.

Lenin and Stalin make Putin look like little Pete Buttigieg. You still want to send our billions over?
As you've been repeatedly told in response to this point, I'd rather spend tens of billions than hundreds of billions or more (not sure how you cost analyze a nuclear conflagration) when Putin decides God told him that Estonia or Latvia or some other NATO member needs to be reintegrated into the Russian empire. Because that's exactly what Putin is saying he's going to do.
going4roses
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Can somebody fact check this one please ?



I hope it is a lie
Tell someone you love them and try to have a good day
BearForce2
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Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.
Yes because history began in the 20th Century. And for the record we are well into the 21st century and most of the wars in this century have been triggered by some group claiming they were acting on behalf of God. This never ends well.

Lenin and Stalin make Putin look like little Pete Buttigieg. You still want to send our billions over?
As you've been repeatedly told in response to this point, I'd rather spend tens of billions than hundreds of billions or more (not sure how you cost analyze a nuclear conflagration) when Putin decides God told him that Estonia or Latvia or some other NATO member needs to be reintegrated into the Russian empire. Because that's exactly what Putin is saying he's going to do.

We've already spent halfway to a hundred billion
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
BearForce2
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going4roses said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.


Nobody has murdered raped brutalized people across the planet like racist Christian colonizers. Not even going to mention the wealth stolen

The big killers were 20th century atheists.
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
Sebastabear
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BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.
Yes because history began in the 20th Century. And for the record we are well into the 21st century and most of the wars in this century have been triggered by some group claiming they were acting on behalf of God. This never ends well.

Lenin and Stalin make Putin look like little Pete Buttigieg. You still want to send our billions over?
As you've been repeatedly told in response to this point, I'd rather spend tens of billions than hundreds of billions or more (not sure how you cost analyze a nuclear conflagration) when Putin decides God told him that Estonia or Latvia or some other NATO member needs to be reintegrated into the Russian empire. Because that's exactly what Putin is saying he's going to do.

We've already spent halfway to a hundred billion
Otherwise known as "tens of billions".
BearForce2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.
Yes because history began in the 20th Century. And for the record we are well into the 21st century and most of the wars in this century have been triggered by some group claiming they were acting on behalf of God. This never ends well.

Lenin and Stalin make Putin look like little Pete Buttigieg. You still want to send our billions over?
As you've been repeatedly told in response to this point, I'd rather spend tens of billions than hundreds of billions or more (not sure how you cost analyze a nuclear conflagration) when Putin decides God told him that Estonia or Latvia or some other NATO member needs to be reintegrated into the Russian empire. Because that's exactly what Putin is saying he's going to do.

We've already spent halfway to a hundred billion
Otherwise known as "tens of billions".
Otherwise known as "chump change" to Raytheon and Lockheed Martin.
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
Sebastabear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

BearForce2 said:

Sebastabear said:

For those keeping score at home, Putin is now declaring Russia "the messenger of the Lord on Earth."

Awesome. It's always an excellent sign when a dictator invading another country claims they are doing that because that's what God wants.

Yeah, that never ends badly. Absolutely never.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/17/world/ukraine-russia-news?referringSource=articleShare

The big killers were 20th century atheists.
Yes because history began in the 20th Century. And for the record we are well into the 21st century and most of the wars in this century have been triggered by some group claiming they were acting on behalf of God. This never ends well.

Lenin and Stalin make Putin look like little Pete Buttigieg. You still want to send our billions over?
As you've been repeatedly told in response to this point, I'd rather spend tens of billions than hundreds of billions or more (not sure how you cost analyze a nuclear conflagration) when Putin decides God told him that Estonia or Latvia or some other NATO member needs to be reintegrated into the Russian empire. Because that's exactly what Putin is saying he's going to do.

We've already spent halfway to a hundred billion
Otherwise known as "tens of billions".
Otherwise known as "chump change" to Raytheon and Lockheed Martin.
Same talking point. Will give you the same response. The Republicans were the ones who wanted the Raytheon revenue maximized in the last round of funding support. If you are mad about Raytheon in particular you should switch parties. I know the Democrats are unlikely to win your support. I'd suggest United Russia would be perfect for you.
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