So many things just never happened...

- the earth being round (That's where it all started! Er, wait, should I add the Big Bang?)
- the Holocaust
- the Kennedy assassination
- Apollo 11 landing on the moon
- climate change caused by man
- John Kerry being a war hero
- John McCain being a war hero
- racism in 21st century America
- COVID
- a fair Presidential election in 2020
- the Capital insurrection
- the war in Ukraine

We're just lucky that anything ever happened... such as Hillary Clinton murdering Vince Foster, then molesting babies in the basement of a pizza parlor and then embedding tiny GPS trackers in the mRNA "vaccine"! If it weren't for things like that, nothing would have ever happened! And then where would we be?!?
-

History doesn’t repeat but it does rhyme. pic.twitter.com/XljYYr5vG0

— Big Serge ☦️🇺🇸🇷🇺 (@witte_sergei) February 28, 2023

❗️🇷🇺🇺🇦 The Battle for Bakhmut
the situation by the end of February 28, 2023 pic.twitter.com/IPFyilTMfN

— Rybar in English (@rybar_en) February 28, 2023

The battle of Bakhmut is entering its final stages, with the Russians winning. Ukrainian army regulars have mostly evacuated the city, leaving 15k border guards, national guard, territorial defence, Georgians, and other foreign fighters. The only Ukrainian regular army unit within the boundaries of Bakhmut is the 93rd mechanized brigade, whose motto is "Never Back". Hopefully they will make an exception to this in March.

The Battle of Bakhmut has involved over 90k Ukrainian soldiers (27 brigades, Azov Battalion and special forces) and about 60k Russian soldiers (mostly Wagner PMCs), it has been the biggest battle by far in the war to date by a wide margin in terms of the number of troops committed and lost.

On the economic front, as I've mentioned a while back, the Russians have not been hampered by the sanctions:

Bloomberg: Russia sells oil well above the price ceiling

The publication writes that after the introduction of the "price ceiling," Russia sold oil for an average of $74 a barrel. China bought Russian oil at an even higher price, an average of $82 a barrel. The conclusion is… https://t.co/xIu3CuwUNP pic.twitter.com/tDfYZGtFnZ

— GraphicW (@GraphicW5) February 25, 2023

"Exports of oil and condensate from Russia to China over the past month reached the highest level since April 2020, exceeding 1.5 million barrels per day," - Bloomberg pic.twitter.com/lUeKoLB2Xk

— Trollstoy (@Trollstoy88) February 21, 2023

Russia ramps up oil sales despite sanctions - Bloomberg.

Last week alone, a record 10 oil tankers were loaded in the Pacific port of Kozmino. pic.twitter.com/EVrApSknVA

— JK (@JK2022Z) March 1, 2023

Russia’s seaborne oil exports remained resilient in February as the nation found new buyers despite Western restrictions https://t.co/O558V3imt5

— Bloomberg Economics (@economics) February 28, 2023

Russia will keep selling as much oil as it can to India despite the rebound in Chinese demand, according to commodity-data firm Kpler https://t.co/zwtO5yCYL8

— Bloomberg (@business) February 28, 2023

Oil is a fungible product in the most literal sense:

🇷🇺⚡Russia has sold millions of barrels of oil bypassing European sanctions, - Bloomberg.

▪️Oil and its products are transferred from one tanker to another in neutral waters - for example, off the coast of Greece and North Africa.
▪️Greek authorities can’t do anything about it. pic.twitter.com/Ri1InVxLIB

— Gioathens (@Gioathens1) February 27, 2023

BBC with a nice overview of some of the firehose of falsehoods catching on with the boiled brain useful idiot crowd.

Quote:

---

The first anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine has led to a spike in false claims about the war on social media, with some posts gaining millions of engagements.

A number of US right-wing accounts with large followings posted a series of baseless claims that suggested the entire Ukraine war might be a hoax perpetrated by Western media and governments.

Those spreading the most viral claims included some who had previously been suspended from Twitter and allowed back onto the platform following Elon Musk's takeover.

---

They mention the idiotic one I posted recently, among a number of others making the rounds.

Quote:

---

One false claim that has been gaining traction on Twitter and elsewhere suggested that the entire war has somehow been faked.

As evidence, some prominent right-wing accounts in the US cited the supposed lack of footage from the front line.

A commentator complained about "the lack of war footage" in a viral post, saying it "smacks of a scam".

Another Twitter influencer with 1.4 million followers claimed there was "no footage" and "no detailed updates" of the war.

That post was later shared by former US national security adviser Michael Flynn, who added: "I double dare anyone to say he is wrong."

---

Consistent with the firehose of falsehoods, Putin is happy to have dumb Americans believe that the war isn't actually happening because that will reduce the approval of continued support for Ukraine. The fact that it's inconsistent with different propaganda being shared by the same maroons is only a problem for those with functioning brains.

And lest anyone think Russia's impending pyrrhic victory in Bakhmut is a sign that Russia has figured out how to war, this article from NYT about Russia's loss in Vuhledar shows they still have a failing command and control model and that without NCO or competent leaders their military will continue to suffer strategic and tactical failures.

Quote:

---

A three-week battle on a plain near the coal-mining town of Vuhledar in southern Ukraine produced what Ukrainian officials say was the biggest tank battle of the war so far, and a stinging setback for the Russians.

In the extended battle, both sides sent tanks into the fray, rumbling over dirt roads and maneuvering around tree lines, with the Russians thrusting forward in columns and the Ukrainians maneuvering defensively, firing from a distance or from hiding places as Russian columns came into their sights.

When it was over, not only had Russia failed to capture Vuhledar, but it also had made the same mistake that cost Moscow hundreds of tanks earlier in the war: advancing columns into ambushes.

Blown up on mines, hit with artillery or obliterated by anti-tank missiles, the charred hulks of Russian armored vehicles now litter farm fields all about Vuhledar, according to Ukrainian military drone footage. Ukraine's military said Russia had lost at least 130 tanks and armored personnel carriers in the battle.

---

Quote:

---

"We studied the roads they used, then hid and waited" to shoot in ambushes, Sergeant Knignitsky said.

Lack of expertise also bedeviled the Russians. Many of their most elite units had been left in shambles from earlier fighting. Their spots were filled with newly conscripted soldiers, unschooled in Ukraine's tactics for ambushing columns. In one indication that Russia is running short of experienced tank commanders,
Ukrainian soldiers said they captured a medic who had been reassigned to operate a tank.

The Russian army has focused on, and even mythologized, tank warfare for decades for its redolence of Russian victories over the Nazis in World War II. Factories in the Ural Mountains have churned out tanks by the thousands. In Vuhledar, by last week Russia had lost so many machines to sustain armored assaults that they had changed tactics and resorted only to infantry attacks, Ukrainian commanders said.

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

BBC with a nice overview of some of the firehose of falsehoods catching on with the boiled brain useful idiot crowd.

Quote:

---

The first anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine has led to a spike in false claims about the war on social media, with some posts gaining millions of engagements.

A number of US right-wing accounts with large followings posted a series of baseless claims that suggested the entire Ukraine war might be a hoax perpetrated by Western media and governments.

Those spreading the most viral claims included some who had previously been suspended from Twitter and allowed back onto the platform following Elon Musk's takeover.

---

They mention the idiotic one I posted recently, among a number of others making the rounds.

Quote:

---

One false claim that has been gaining traction on Twitter and elsewhere suggested that the entire war has somehow been faked.

As evidence, some prominent right-wing accounts in the US cited the supposed lack of footage from the front line.

A commentator complained about "the lack of war footage" in a viral post, saying it "smacks of a scam".

Another Twitter influencer with 1.4 million followers claimed there was "no footage" and "no detailed updates" of the war.

That post was later shared by former US national security adviser Michael Flynn, who added: "I double dare anyone to say he is wrong."

---

Consistent with the firehose of falsehoods, Putin is happy to have dumb Americans believe that the war isn't actually happening because that will reduce the approval of continued support for Ukraine. The fact that it's inconsistent with different propaganda being shared by the same maroons is only a problem for those with functioning brains.

---

I haven't seen any evidence of anyone actually saying the war was fake. Your catturd2 post certainly didn't and your posted quotes don't either. Do you have a link to actual real claims that the war is fake by influential people?

Maybe it's transmisable and Unit now has a garden hose of falsehoods?

oski003 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

BBC with a nice overview of some of the firehose of falsehoods catching on with the boiled brain useful idiot crowd.

Quote:

---

The first anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine has led to a spike in false claims about the war on social media, with some posts gaining millions of engagements.

A number of US right-wing accounts with large followings posted a series of baseless claims that suggested the entire Ukraine war might be a hoax perpetrated by Western media and governments.

Those spreading the most viral claims included some who had previously been suspended from Twitter and allowed back onto the platform following Elon Musk's takeover.

---

They mention the idiotic one I posted recently, among a number of others making the rounds.

Quote:

---

One false claim that has been gaining traction on Twitter and elsewhere suggested that the entire war has somehow been faked.

As evidence, some prominent right-wing accounts in the US cited the supposed lack of footage from the front line.

A commentator complained about "the lack of war footage" in a viral post, saying it "smacks of a scam".

Another Twitter influencer with 1.4 million followers claimed there was "no footage" and "no detailed updates" of the war.

That post was later shared by former US national security adviser Michael Flynn, who added: "I double dare anyone to say he is wrong."

---

Consistent with the firehose of falsehoods, Putin is happy to have dumb Americans believe that the war isn't actually happening because that will reduce the approval of continued support for Ukraine. The fact that it's inconsistent with different propaganda being shared by the same maroons is only a problem for those with functioning brains.

---

I haven't seen any evidence of anyone actually saying the war was fake. Your catturd2 post certainly didn't and your posted quotes don't either. Do you have a link to actual real claims that the war is fake by influential people?

---

Define influential people. Clearly you, movielover and Yogi haven't been overly picky about your sources up to this point.

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

BBC with a nice overview of some of the firehose of falsehoods catching on with the boiled brain useful idiot crowd.

Quote:

---

The first anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine has led to a spike in false claims about the war on social media, with some posts gaining millions of engagements.

A number of US right-wing accounts with large followings posted a series of baseless claims that suggested the entire Ukraine war might be a hoax perpetrated by Western media and governments.

Those spreading the most viral claims included some who had previously been suspended from Twitter and allowed back onto the platform following Elon Musk's takeover.

---

They mention the idiotic one I posted recently, among a number of others making the rounds.

Quote:

---

One false claim that has been gaining traction on Twitter and elsewhere suggested that the entire war has somehow been faked.

As evidence, some prominent right-wing accounts in the US cited the supposed lack of footage from the front line.

A commentator complained about "the lack of war footage" in a viral post, saying it "smacks of a scam".

Another Twitter influencer with 1.4 million followers claimed there was "no footage" and "no detailed updates" of the war.

That post was later shared by former US national security adviser Michael Flynn, who added: "I double dare anyone to say he is wrong."

---

Consistent with the firehose of falsehoods, Putin is happy to have dumb Americans believe that the war isn't actually happening because that will reduce the approval of continued support for Ukraine. The fact that it's inconsistent with different propaganda being shared by the same maroons is only a problem for those with functioning brains.

---

I haven't seen any evidence of anyone actually saying the war was fake. Your catturd2 post certainly didn't and your posted quotes don't either. Do you have a link to actual real claims that the war is fake by influential people?

---

Define influential people. Clearly you, movielover and Yogi haven't been overly picky about your sources up to this point.

---

Someone that has or exerts influence. Look, I am just looking for some actual support for U2's word diarrhea. He is high on extrapolation, unsupported arguments, and attacks on people he doesn't like. He is low on actual evidence supporting what he says.

Quote:

---

the firehose of falsehoods catching on with the boiled brain useful idiot crowd

---

^I know he didn't intend it, but this is genuinely funny.

I think we're just starting to hit a point in the Ukraine War story arc where reality is becoming too difficult to hide and thus starting to catch up with the gaslighting. This explains the kind of unhinged, highly aggressive posting of guys like Unit 2 Sucks - the anger stage.

The Zelensky government and its NATO overlords have been desperately trying to hold the line in the Donbass, throwing bodies into the Battle of Bakhmut by the tens of thousands, and now being faced with the prospect of a demoralizing defeat and a difficult retreat in the last remaining road out of the city for the thousands of Ukrainian fighters remaining, the bulk of whom are national guard and other conscripts.

Zelensky fired the top commander of the Donbass troops, most likely because generals by and large tend to care more about their men than politicians do, especially when the politicians calling the shots here aren't even local ones. If Nuland, Stoltenberg, Boris and co actually cared about Ukrainian lives, they would have stopped the war a long time ago (or made some effort to avoid it altogether):

Quote:

---

Ukraine's joint forces commander has been dismissed from his role, President Volodymyr Zelensky announced in a brief decree on Sunday, per Reuters.

The big picture: The dismissal of Major Gen. Eduard Mykhailovich Moskalov, who had served in the role overseeing battles in the Donbas region since last March, is the latest in a series of Ukrainian leadership changes since the Russian military invasion began in February last year.

Zoom in: Several high-profile Ukrainian officials were fired or resigned last month as Zelensky moved to contain allegations of corruption.

What we're watching: It was not immediately clear why Zelensky fired Moskalyov as no reason was given in the one-line decree that was published on the Ukrainian president's official website.

https://www.axios.com/2023/02/27/zelensky-fires-top-ukrainian-military-commander

---

^There is an ongoing conflict between Ukrainian military brass who called for a pullout from Bakhmut several months ago in order to minimize lives lost, and the politicians and ideologues who fear the political ramifications of a high profile defeat, this is what we're seeing here with the unceremonious dismissal of Moskalyov.

Unlike in Mariupol and Soledar where the Ukrainian soldiers trapped had huge networks of underground bunkers and mines that allowed them to hold off for a long time, they will have a hard time holding back the Russians without reinforcements and supplies. Hopefully these men will not have to fight to the death, though given that there is an Azov contingent left in Bakhmut, and that these guys are the hardened troop element of that lot, the thousands of conscripts left in Bakhmut might not have the option to surrender and return from this city alive.

Lots of key inflection points coming together simultaneously. A virtual firehose, one might say.

- NATO / Ukraine running out of ammo
- NATO / USA can't meet Ukraine's current ammo needs; 40 generals unprepared for an attrition war
- Ukraine allegedly has 275K KIA and 200K injured, and possibly hitting a deployment wall
- Bakhmut ready to fall
- China showing direct support of Russia
- Russia unfazed by EU oil sanctions
- Germany has now publicly said Aits possible America was involved w Nordstream bombings
- Zelensky says Americans should fight & die in Ukraine

Since we are just past the 1 year anniversary of the invasion, that means we are ... just past the one year anniversary of Russian shills predicting the war was almost over.

Douglas McPutin 1 year ago:

Quote:

---

"The battle in eastern Ukraine is really almost over, all of the Ukrainian troops there have been largely surrounded and cut off. You have a concentration down in the Southeast of 30 or 40,000 of them, and if they don't surrender in the next 24 hours, I suspect Russia will ultimately annihilate them."

---

ML's favorite convicted pedophile, Scott Ritter, predicted thusly last winter (just before the war):

Quote:

---

In the weeks and months ahead, Russia will be the one dictating the outcome of this crisis which will be a resounding Russian victory.
...
Despite the repeated Western warnings, Russia is highly unlikely to invade Ukraine at least not yet. Instead, Russia appears to be entering a new phase of crisis management that seeks to exploit the weaknesses in the US/Nato alliance highlighted by their written responses to its demands.
...
The chess pieces are already being moved. While the US may not see it, a Russian checkmate can be predicted sooner, rather than later.

---

Putin88 didn't start amplifying the firehose of falsehoods until a bit later in the war, so we haven't yet reached the one year anniversary of their ridiculous predictions of imminent Russian victory. And, of course, ML hadn't yet been radicalized as a useful idiot and didn't start passing off Russian propaganda until some time after that.

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Since we are just past the 1 year anniversary of the invasion, that means we are ... just past the one year anniversary of Russian shills predicting the war was almost over.

Douglas McPutin 1 year ago:

Quote:

---

"The battle in eastern Ukraine is really almost over, all of the Ukrainian troops there have been largely surrounded and cut off. You have a concentration down in the Southeast of 30 or 40,000 of them, and if they don't surrender in the next 24 hours, I suspect Russia will ultimately annihilate them."

---

ML's favorite convicted pedophile, Scott Ritter, predicted thusly last winter (just before the war):

Quote:

---

In the weeks and months ahead, Russia will be the one dictating the outcome of this crisis which will be a resounding Russian victory.
...
Despite the repeated Western warnings, Russia is highly unlikely to invade Ukraine at least not yet. Instead, Russia appears to be entering a new phase of crisis management that seeks to exploit the weaknesses in the US/Nato alliance highlighted by their written responses to its demands.
...
The chess pieces are already being moved. While the US may not see it, a Russian checkmate can be predicted sooner, rather than later.

---

Putin88 didn't start amplifying the firehose of falsehoods until a bit later in the war, so we haven't yet reached the one year anniversary of their ridiculous predictions of imminent Russian victory. And, of course, ML hadn't yet been radicalized as a useful idiot and didn't start passing off Russian propaganda until some time after that.

---

It will also be near the one year anniversary of patriotic dolts calling everyone a Russian shill and Putin propagandist if they question NATO involvement in the war and/or the origin of the tension between the two countries. It will also be near the one year anniversary of patriotic dolts shouting down others' viewpoints on all Ukrainian related things because they thought Russia's initial push would be more successful. It will be near the one month anniversary of patriotic dolts arguing that Russia sabotaged nordstream. These dolts love to point out when others are wrong as if they have zero cognizance of the times they themselves have been wrong.

Correct! Took me a while to find where to exchange rubles ... Top Dog to the rescue.

Several month anniversary of ideologues like you refusing to hold no conditions peace talks - no, no, Russia needs to give back the Donbas, CRIMEA, and go home because they're bad, evil people. Putin is Hitler. (Eye roll.) Putin should be killed by Azov, the Nazi group that doesn't exist... Russia should be weakened... all while we ignore our open southern border, 5 million Biden illegal immigrants, including cartel members, fentanyl deaths exceed 100k in a year and homeless drug addicts exploding.

But let's pump $120 Billion into Ukraine x 3 more years = $480 Billion, until we completely destroy Ukraine and every Ukrainian man alive to try to salvage NATO.

movielover said:

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Correct! Took me a while to find where to exchange rubles ... Top Dog to the rescue.

Several month anniversary of ideologues like you refusing to hold no conditions peace talks - no, no, Russia needs to give back the Donbas, CRIMEA, and go home because they're bad, evil people. Putin is Hitler. (Eye roll.) Putin should be killed by Azov, the Nazi group that doesn't exist... Russia should be weakened... all while we ignore our open southern border, 5 million Biden illegal immigrants, including cartel members, fentanyl deaths exceed 100k in a year and homeless drug addicts exploding.

But let's pump $120 Billion into Ukraine x 3 more years = $480 Billion, until we completely destroy Ukraine and every Ukrainian man alive to try to salvage NATO.

---

ML, how do we distinguish what Russia is doing from what Hitler was doing when they invaded Poland?

^One of the main differences is that Hitler invaded Poland with an army of 1.5 million, so it's pretty clear that his intention right from the start was to occupy that country, and push beyond that into the USSR.

Putin went into Ukraine, a country bigger than Poland, with an army of 190,000, so it's pretty clear that his intention was not to occupy Ukraine but to force it into a Minsk+ type of a political settlement with the three conditions imposed by force (neutrality, Crimea Russian, Donbass autonomy.)

Bakhmut is under complete fire control and Ukraine has hinted that they will soon abandon their positions. The western corporate media, however, has insisted for weeks that it's only the Russians who are taking heavy casualties.

Get ready for a post-evac narrative shift. pic.twitter.com/ywswYPSB9u

— Jordan Schachtel (@JordanSchachtel) March 2, 2023

oski003 said:

---

movielover said:

---

Correct! Took me a while to find where to exchange rubles ... Top Dog to the rescue.

Several month anniversary of ideologues like you refusing to hold no conditions peace talks - no, no, Russia needs to give back the Donbas, CRIMEA, and go home because they're bad, evil people. Putin is Hitler. (Eye roll.) Putin should be killed by Azov, the Nazi group that doesn't exist... Russia should be weakened... all while we ignore our open southern border, 5 million Biden illegal immigrants, including cartel members, fentanyl deaths exceed 100k in a year and homeless drug addicts exploding.

But let's pump $120 Billion into Ukraine x 3 more years = $480 Billion, until we completely destroy Ukraine and every Ukrainian man alive to try to salvage NATO.

---

ML, how do we distinguish what Russia is doing from what Hitler was doing when they invaded Poland?

---

I'm no expert on the topic, but:

- Putin repeatedly attempted to broker peace deals or compromises over 9 years
- Putin 'went in soft' with 180K troops
- Putin isn't trying to erase Ukrainian culture
- Putin hasn't killed hundreds of thousands or millions, of Poles (Hilter killing 11 million)
- Putin hasn't set up extermination camps
- Putin isn't a failed art student

movielover said:

---

oski003 said:

---

movielover said:

---

Correct! Took me a while to find where to exchange rubles ... Top Dog to the rescue.

Several month anniversary of ideologues like you refusing to hold no conditions peace talks - no, no, Russia needs to give back the Donbas, CRIMEA, and go home because they're bad, evil people. Putin is Hitler. (Eye roll.) Putin should be killed by Azov, the Nazi group that doesn't exist... Russia should be weakened... all while we ignore our open southern border, 5 million Biden illegal immigrants, including cartel members, fentanyl deaths exceed 100k in a year and homeless drug addicts exploding.

But let's pump $120 Billion into Ukraine x 3 more years = $480 Billion, until we completely destroy Ukraine and every Ukrainian man alive to try to salvage NATO.

---

ML, how do we distinguish what Russia is doing from what Hitler was doing when they invaded Poland?

---

I'm no expert on the topic, but:

- Putin repeatedly attempted to broker peace deals or compromises over 9 years
- Putin 'went in soft' with 180K troops
- Putin isn't trying to erase Ukrainian culture
- Putin hasn't killed hundreds of thousands or millions, of Poles (Hilter killing 11 million)
- Putin hasn't set up extermination camps
- Putin isn't a failed art student

---

I'm no expert on the topic, but:

You should probably wipe off your chin when you're done with a post like this.

movielover said:

---

- Putin repeatedly attempted to broker peace deals or compromises over 9 years

---

This actually doesn't distinguish them. Hitler brokered "peace deals" too. Then he ignored them and invaded more countries.

oski003 said:

---

movielover said:

---

Correct! Took me a while to find where to exchange rubles ... Top Dog to the rescue.

Several month anniversary of ideologues like you refusing to hold no conditions peace talks - no, no, Russia needs to give back the Donbas, CRIMEA, and go home because they're bad, evil people. Putin is Hitler. (Eye roll.) Putin should be killed by Azov, the Nazi group that doesn't exist... Russia should be weakened... all while we ignore our open southern border, 5 million Biden illegal immigrants, including cartel members, fentanyl deaths exceed 100k in a year and homeless drug addicts exploding.

But let's pump $120 Billion into Ukraine x 3 more years = $480 Billion, until we completely destroy Ukraine and every Ukrainian man alive to try to salvage NATO.

---

ML, how do we distinguish what Russia is doing from what Hitler was doing when they invaded Poland?

---

I'm not "ML" (in case you didn't notice), but ya gotta draw a line somewhere, when defining your vital interests. I draw that line between Poland and Ukraine.

I'm willing to help Ukraine with aid and military supplies, if that's what they want, but probably no US boots on ground. Poland is on our side of the line I drew.

Cal88 said:

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^One of the main differences is that Hitler invaded Poland with an army of 1.5 million, so it's pretty clear that his intention right from the start was to occupy that country, and push beyond that into the USSR.

Putin went into Ukraine, a country bigger than Poland, with an army of 190,000, so it's pretty clear that his intention was not to occupy Ukraine but to force it into a Minsk+ type of a political settlement with the three conditions imposed by force (neutrality, Crimea Russian, Donbass autonomy.)

---

Putin went in with an army of 190,000 because he incorrectly thought the Ukrainians would welcome Russia. He was wrong. His goal was regime change and the implementation of a puppet government.

I dont know if you consider that as an 'occupation' but his goal was and is to control ukraine.

golden sloth said:

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Cal88 said:

---

^One of the main differences is that Hitler invaded Poland with an army of 1.5 million, so it's pretty clear that his intention right from the start was to occupy that country, and push beyond that into the USSR.

Putin went into Ukraine, a country bigger than Poland, with an army of 190,000, so it's pretty clear that his intention was not to occupy Ukraine but to force it into a Minsk+ type of a political settlement with the three conditions imposed by force (neutrality, Crimea Russian, Donbass autonomy.)

---

Putin went in with an army of 190,000 because he incorrectly thought the Ukrainians would welcome Russia. He was wrong. His goal was regime change and the implementation of a puppet government.

I dont know if you consider that as an 'occupation' but his goal was and is to control ukraine.

---

You don't head straight for the capital if all you want is a few provinces in the east.

sycasey said:

---

golden sloth said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

^One of the main differences is that Hitler invaded Poland with an army of 1.5 million, so it's pretty clear that his intention right from the start was to occupy that country, and push beyond that into the USSR.

Putin went into Ukraine, a country bigger than Poland, with an army of 190,000, so it's pretty clear that his intention was not to occupy Ukraine but to force it into a Minsk+ type of a political settlement with the three conditions imposed by force (neutrality, Crimea Russian, Donbass autonomy.)

---

Putin went in with an army of 190,000 because he incorrectly thought the Ukrainians would welcome Russia. He was wrong. His goal was regime change and the implementation of a puppet government.

I dont know if you consider that as an 'occupation' but his goal was and is to control ukraine.

---

You don't head straight for the capital if all you want is a few provinces in the east.

---

That was a giant feint designed to pin troops down in defense of the capital didn't you hear?

Always funny to hear the useful idiots get tripped up in their own firehose.

The thing about Russian propaganda is that although it is reliably false on facts, it is a good indication of what Putin actually believes (or at least wants you think he believes), and to be clear he wants us to believe that Ukraine has no right to sovereignty. It's still possible that this is all a misdirection and that his supervening goal is just to prevent Ukraine from competing with Russia's petro assets which drive its kleptocracy but regardless this public official propaganda should be a reliable indicator of what Putin will accept as an outcome from this war.

Here's official Russian propaganda from the day Putin invaded Ukraine.

Quote:

---

"Ukraine has never had its own authentic statehood. There has never been a sustainable statehood in Ukraine."

---

Sure, a disingenuous shill might argue, but that's just a few sentences and maybe you are mistaken. It's not like he wrote an essay on it.

Except he did, or at least ascribed his name to one in July 2021. If you have time to read the essay it's a rambling somewhat incoherent screed. But he makes one thing clear, again and again.

Quote:

---

First of all, I would like to emphasize that the wall that has emerged in recent years between Russia and Ukraine, between the parts of what is essentially the same historical and spiritual space, to my mind is our great common misfortune and tragedy. These are, first and foremost, the consequences of our own mistakes made at different periods of time. But these are also the result of deliberate efforts by those forces that have always sought to undermine our unity. The formula they apply has been known from time immemorial divide and rule. There is nothing new here. Hence the attempts to play on the "national question" and sow discord among people, the overarching goal being to divide and then to pit the parts of a single people against one another.
...
The name "Ukraine" was used more often in the meaning of the Old Russian word "okraina" (periphery), which is found in written sources from the 12th century, referring to various border territories. And the word "Ukrainian", judging by archival documents, originally referred to frontier guards who protected the external borders.
...
At the same time, the idea of Ukrainian people as a nation separate from the Russians started to form and gain ground among the Polish elite and a part of the Malorussian intelligentsia. Since there was no historical basis and could not have been any, conclusions were substantiated by all sorts of concoctions, which went as far as to claim that the Ukrainians are the true Slavs and the Russians, the Muscovites, are not. Such "hypotheses" became increasingly used for political purposes as a tool of rivalry between European states.
...
I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. Our spiritual, human and civilizational ties formed for centuries and have their origins in the same sources, they have been hardened by common trials, achievements and victories. Our kinship has been transmitted from generation to generation. It is in the hearts and the memory of people living in modern Russia and Ukraine, in the blood ties that unite millions of our families. Together we have always been and will be many times stronger and more successful. For we are one people.

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He's made other statements of course but you get the point. It's very clear that Putin will never accept an end game where Ukraine retains any sovereignty. That's why all the disingenuous talk about the "feint" or "soft" invasion are the product of useful idiots or intentional propagandists.

The notion that Putin just wants to liberate the Donbas or Crimea is not supportable when you read how clearly Putin disagrees with the entire notion of Ukrainian sovereignty, although I will of course point out that much of his propaganda is contradictory. This is consistent with the firehose of falsehoods which people are tired of me calling out but which we continue to see play out in this thread.

movielover said:

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Big C said:

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oski003 said:

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movielover said:

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Correct! Took me a while to find where to exchange rubles ... Top Dog to the rescue.

Several month anniversary of ideologues like you refusing to hold no conditions peace talks - no, no, Russia needs to give back the Donbas, CRIMEA, and go home because they're bad, evil people. Putin is Hitler. (Eye roll.) Putin should be killed by Azov, the Nazi group that doesn't exist... Russia should be weakened... all while we ignore our open southern border, 5 million Biden illegal immigrants, including cartel members, fentanyl deaths exceed 100k in a year and homeless drug addicts exploding.

But let's pump $120 Billion into Ukraine x 3 more years = $480 Billion, until we completely destroy Ukraine and every Ukrainian man alive to try to salvage NATO.

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ML, how do we distinguish what Russia is doing from what Hitler was doing when they invaded Poland?

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I'm not "ML" (in case you didn't notice), but ya gotta draw a line somewhere, when defining your vital interests. I draw that line between Poland and Ukraine.

I'm willing to help Ukraine with aid and military supplies, if that's what they want, but probably no US boots on ground. Poland is on our side of the line I drew.

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Reasonable points. Are you ready to spend $480 Billion over 4 years; potentially that much to rebuild what's ever left of Ukraine; and hallow out NATO?

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That's a fair question: Our coffers aren't limitless, for sure. I never would've talked about Ukraine joining NATO. Not in the '90s or any time since. NATO was supposed to cover Western Europe, back when there was NATO / Warsaw Pact. Okay, the USSR collapsed and we expanded NATO to the eastern border of Poland. That was the place to stop.

I'd like to see Ukraine and Russia come up with some kind of settlement. This is Putin's responsibility, but it's a stupid damn war that is costing hundreds of billions of dollars and many thousands of lives. Senseless.

Hopefully those European leaders that were just talking about Ukraine joining NATO were just using that to try and get Putin to agree to some sort of accord. That would be a reasonable ploy, but if they were serious, it's stupid.

Big C said:

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movielover said:

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Big C said:

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oski003 said:

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movielover said:

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Correct! Took me a while to find where to exchange rubles ... Top Dog to the rescue.

Several month anniversary of ideologues like you refusing to hold no conditions peace talks - no, no, Russia needs to give back the Donbas, CRIMEA, and go home because they're bad, evil people. Putin is Hitler. (Eye roll.) Putin should be killed by Azov, the Nazi group that doesn't exist... Russia should be weakened... all while we ignore our open southern border, 5 million Biden illegal immigrants, including cartel members, fentanyl deaths exceed 100k in a year and homeless drug addicts exploding.

But let's pump $120 Billion into Ukraine x 3 more years = $480 Billion, until we completely destroy Ukraine and every Ukrainian man alive to try to salvage NATO.

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ML, how do we distinguish what Russia is doing from what Hitler was doing when they invaded Poland?

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I'm not "ML" (in case you didn't notice), but ya gotta draw a line somewhere, when defining your vital interests. I draw that line between Poland and Ukraine.

I'm willing to help Ukraine with aid and military supplies, if that's what they want, but probably no US boots on ground. Poland is on our side of the line I drew.

---

Reasonable points. Are you ready to spend $480 Billion over 4 years; potentially that much to rebuild what's ever left of Ukraine; and hallow out NATO?

---

That's a fair question: Our coffers aren't limitless, for sure. I never would've talked about Ukraine joining NATO. Not in the '90s or any time since. NATO was supposed to cover Western Europe, back when there was NATO / Warsaw Pact. Okay, the USSR collapsed and we expanded NATO to the eastern border of Poland. That was the place to stop.

I'd like to see Ukraine and Russia come up with some kind of settlement. This is Putin's responsibility, but it's a stupid damn war that is costing hundreds of billions of dollars and many thousands of lives. Senseless.

Hopefully those European leaders that were just talking about Ukraine joining NATO were just using that to try and get Putin to agree to some sort of accord. That would be a reasonable ploy, but if they were serious, it's stupid.

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Another sensible post. Unfortunately, the assassination of Ukraine's peace negotiator makes everything more complicated. Ukraine's Nazi contingent obviously is tracking his family. That group knows de-Nazification of Ukraine is a top-5 priority for Putin.