The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

939,876 Views | 10272 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by Cal88
Unit2Sucks
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Apologies for the flurry of anti-Ukraine propaganda that will follow.

A few hits today to remind everyone of how corrupt Russia is and what the implications are. Despite the propagandists pretending Russia is the autocratic land of freedom, the reality is that it severely represses and oppresses its citizens (including its soldiers) and that its neighbors hate it.





But don't worry all is well for Russia in the. Ukraine war - the stuff below is just typical stuff that the best military in the world would do and is evidence of success.




movielover
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The Economist: As talks about peace talks start, Ukraine's backers must hold firm

The war will not end soon

(40 countries to meet in Saudi Arabia to discuss peace talks.)

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/08/04/as-talks-about-peace-talks-start-ukraines-backers-must-hold-firm
movielover
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Business Insider: Russia is jamming 'sophisticated' US weapons being used in Ukraine, making them useless, report says

"Russia is disabling "sophisticated" missiles that Ukraine's Western allies provided by scrambling their GPS coordinates, according to reports.

"Bryan Clark, a senior fellow at Hudson Institute, a US think tank, told BBC News that Russia's electronic-warfare capability had significantly improved during the conflict with Ukraine.

"He said that Russia was now deploying hundreds of small, mobile electronic-warfare units along the front line, having previously relied on large, cumbersome units that could be easily targeted. ..."

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-disable-sophisticated-us-missiles-used-ukraine-gps-useless-report-2023-8
oski003
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movielover said:

Business Insider: Russia is jamming 'sophisticated' US weapons being used in Ukraine, making them useless, report says

"Russia is disabling "sophisticated" missiles that Ukraine's Western allies provided by scrambling their GPS coordinates, according to reports.

"Bryan Clark, a senior fellow at Hudson Institute, a US think tank, told BBC News that Russia's electronic-warfare capability had significantly improved during the conflict with Ukraine.

"He said that Russia was now deploying hundreds of small, mobile electronic-warfare units along the front line, having previously relied on large, cumbersome units that could be easily targeted. ..."

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-disable-sophisticated-us-missiles-used-ukraine-gps-useless-report-2023-8


It is adorable how Usucks apologizes" for the flurry of anti-Ukraine propaganda that will follow," yet he posts random tweets and propaganda supporting his cause, which was followed by "a flurry of anti-Ukraine propaganda" that was actually relatively neutral articles in Business Insider and the Economist.
Cal88
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oski003 said:

movielover said:

Business Insider: Russia is jamming 'sophisticated' US weapons being used in Ukraine, making them useless, report says

"Russia is disabling "sophisticated" missiles that Ukraine's Western allies provided by scrambling their GPS coordinates, according to reports.

"Bryan Clark, a senior fellow at Hudson Institute, a US think tank, told BBC News that Russia's electronic-warfare capability had significantly improved during the conflict with Ukraine.

"He said that Russia was now deploying hundreds of small, mobile electronic-warfare units along the front line, having previously relied on large, cumbersome units that could be easily targeted. ..."

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-disable-sophisticated-us-missiles-used-ukraine-gps-useless-report-2023-8

It is adorable how Usucks apologizes" for the flurry of anti-Ukraine propaganda that will follow," yet he posts random tweets and propaganda supporting his cause, which was followed by "a flurry of anti-Ukraine propaganda" that was actually relatively neutral articles in Business Insider and the Economist.

Reading U2S mini tweet-storms is useful though, it gives you a good measure of what is actually happening, if you just flip the protagonists, because the common thread in his content is projection.

For example:

Quote:

ISW: Kremlin may be demanding silence over military failures in Ukraine

actually means that Ukraine is not reporting on the 2 months old counteroffensive, which has been a massive failure, 43,000 soldiers lost, 1/3 of their tanks, armored vehicles, for no real advances.

The media is starting to manage public opinion by starting to bridge the gap between war propaganda and reality:


The Russians have completely dominated the southern front, their elaborate defensive strategy was sound. NATO has pushed Ukraine into throwing wave after wave of suicidal frontal attack on heavily mined open flat terrain without any kind of air cover. The expectations were that the Russians would run away, instead they have just been picking off column after column for the past 2 months.

The Russians are demoralized, underpaid, disorganized, disheveled poorly trained peasants forced to fight, with antiquated tanks that don't work, while in reality this is a lot closer to what is really going on, one Russian tank destroying a whole Ukrainian column on its own:
Unit2Sucks
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Apparently the leader of Russia's VDV (elite airborne) accidentally told the truth in a recently deleted video which caused Vlad to cancel the annual VDV celebration.

According to the UK, this disclosure malfunction confirmed that over half of the VDV deployed to Ukraine - which is the vast majority of the VDV - have been wounded or killed. There has been a lot of stupid talk pretending Russia's military is stronger than before, but losing this high a percentage of your elite airborne force is not good for the military or war effort. This is just one small example of how this war has made Russia weaker.



Russian propaganda is working overtime to convince Russians (and useful idiots abroad) that it's having success. If things were really going to plan 530 days into this 3 day war, why would they have to lie so much? I think we all know the answer to that one.



People in Russia are starting to figure it out though. I don't condone this disgusting behavior but apparently a wounded Russian soldier was horribly beaten by Russians accusing him of being a murderer. Shades of Vietnam veteran treatment in the US - this is what happens when you fight an unpopular war with bad motives. It will only get worse in Russia as more of the population wakes up.



Finally, here's a short update from RUSI. RUSI is pretty well regarded British think tank that has been sourced in this thread a number of times. Any time they say anything complimentary of the Russian war effort they become very popular with the shills. This update will have them labeled as neocons who can't be trusted lol.

https://www.ft.com/content/8e831ab5-c99f-4b59-9b9b-125697f86cf4

Quote:


After wasting thousands of troops in a failed spring offensive, the Russian military fell back to around 45km of defensive positions, stretching across the southern front from Zaporizhzhia through Donetsk, to prevent Ukrainian troops advancing towards the strategic, Russian-held city of Melitopol. The so-called Surovikin Line, named after a Russian general, comprises three lines of hardened trenches, each screened by dense minefields, anti-tank ditches, tank traps and wire entanglements. In front of these, Russian fighting positions are bolstered by anti-tank and anti-personnel mines.


After attempts to breach the minefields using explosives led to heavy Ukrainian casualties, Kyiv has adapted its tactics, infiltrating Russian positions to confuse the defenders and strike from the flanks, before attempting breaches. These methods have reduced Ukrainian losses, but the necessary planning and reconnaissance makes this a slow process, in which the Ukrainians fight for 700m at a time. This gives their opponents the chance to reset. But accelerating the process leads to an unacceptable rate of equipment loss. For the Ukrainians, the key is to manage their equipment, such as vehicles, to exploit a breach once it has been made.

As well as assaulting Russian positions, since early June Kyiv has also used precision missiles provided by its partners to destroy counter-battery radar. Without them, Moscow has found itself outranged and unable to locate Ukrainian artillery. Kyiv's forces, by contrast, have become adept at locating Russian guns and destroying them with precision shells.

This systematic erosion of Russian artillery has been a turning point: for the first time in the war, Ukrainian howitzers can deliver sustained fire on to Russian positions. It also means that Moscow while still destroying Ukrainian vehicles in the minefields has less artillery power to kill the infantry that emerge from them. As a result, Ukrainian troops are succeeding in taking Russian positions, even when their vehicles are caught in the open.


Cal88
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Unit2Sucks said:

Quote:

...

This systematic erosion of Russian artillery has been a turning point: for the first time in the war, Ukrainian howitzers can deliver sustained fire on to Russian positions. It also means that Moscow while still destroying Ukrainian vehicles in the minefields has less artillery power to kill the infantry that emerge from them. As a result, Ukrainian troops are succeeding in taking Russian positions, even when their vehicles are caught in the open.


Can you show me on a map, where these "Ukrainian troops have been succeeding in taking Russian positions".

As far as erosion of "Russian artillery", how does this alleged erosion compare with that of Ukrainian artillery.
BearHunter
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It's a cruel summer.
dimitrig
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BearHunter said:



It's a cruel summer.


Here was a beach in Orange County during World War 2.

I guess there was no war going on.


BearHunter
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dimitrig said:


Here was a beach in Orange County during World War 2.

I guess there was no war going on.

I don't remember the Soviets giving us multiple billion dollar aid packages back then either.
AunBear89
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I suppose, in the magical land of Trumpistan, this post makes some sense. In the real world it is pure MAGA nonsense.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
Cal88
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dimitrig said:

BearHunter said:



It's a cruel summer.


Here was a beach in Orange County during World War 2.

I guess there was no war going on.



Not the same thing, Ukraine has a far worse attrition rate today than the US in WW2, with about 2/3 the total casualties (600,000+) for 1/10th the population, so roughly, 6-7 times the casualty rate of 1940s USA. Ukraine as well has far fewer younger people proportionally than 1940 US. One thing I've noticed in those videos of nightlife and beach clubs in western Ukraine is that the ratio of women to men is relatively high.

The guys in those videos are mostly men of wealthier backgrounds or with connections, that paid their way out of the 11 draft rounds, the going rate last year was around $5k, it is double that today. There are probably also many soldiers, cops and state bureaucrats who are stationed in or around Kiev.
Cal88
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Unit2Sucks said:

Apparently the leader of Russia's VDV (elite airborne) accidentally told the truth in a recently deleted video which caused Vlad to cancel the annual VDV celebration.

According to the UK, this disclosure malfunction confirmed that over half of the VDV deployed to Ukraine - which is the vast majority of the VDV - have been wounded or killed. There has been a lot of stupid talk pretending Russia's military is stronger than before, but losing this high a percentage of your elite airborne force is not good for the military or war effort. This is just one small example of how this war has made Russia weaker.

Russian propaganda is working overtime to convince Russians (and useful idiots abroad) that it's having success. If things were really going to plan 530 days into this 3 day war, why would they have to lie so much? I think we all know the answer to that one.

People in Russia are starting to figure it out though. I don't condone this disgusting behavior but apparently a wounded Russian soldier was horribly beaten by Russians accusing him of being a murderer. Shades of Vietnam veteran treatment in the US - this is what happens when you fight an unpopular war with bad motives. It will only get worse in Russia as more of the population wakes up.

Finally, here's a short update from RUSI. RUSI is pretty well regarded British think tank that has been sourced in this thread a number of times. Any time they say anything complimentary of the Russian war effort they become very popular with the shills. This update will have them labeled as neocons who can't be trusted lol.


Your content is usually sourced from highly partisan pundits or neocon-aligned official sources, almost all of that content fails on these two premises:

1- It presents a false narrative of Russian military capabilities and inventory in what is essentially a war of attrition. The question you should ask here is, how does Ukraine compare with Russia in this particular aspect?

2- It builds a false narrative based on very limited and often dubious anecdotal evidence. There is one Telegram video of a Russian military disciplinary case, is that representative of overall troop morale and the conduct of military operations? And once again, how does it compare with the incidence of that occurrence among Ukrainian ranks?

Your material invariably fails to clear these two basic points.


Once again, my posts should not be misconstrued as rooting for the other side, my position is based on the basic understanding that there is no military solution for Ukraine, the country is sinking further every day, and that this war boils down to a cynical, cold-blooded geopolitical attempt to weaken Russia by using Ukraine. But even that attempt is failing and backfiring, as Russia has sustained the economic and military challenge, while Ukraine is getting wrecked.

I believe that calling this out, and pushing for a peaceful settlement is the best and only way to stop this largely one-sided massacre, and if you truly care about Ukraine, you should be on board with this.
AunBear89
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TL; DR: I am not rooting for the Russians, I'm rooting against the people who don't want to be Russians.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
bearister
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Putin's security forces ramp up numbers of people arrested for treason



https://mol.im/a/12383953
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
oski003
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AunBear89 said:

TL; DR: I am not rooting for the Russians, I'm rooting against the people who don't want to be Russians.


AunBear89: "I don't understand what you are saying, but my limited brain thinks you are bad. I insult you to defend my tribe."
AunBear89
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oski003 said:

I have no friends so I constantly defend other right wing trolls on an off topic board.


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
bearister
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AunBear89 said:

oski003 said:

I have no friends so I constantly defend other right wing trolls on an off topic board.





Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
calbear93
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Cal88 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Apparently the leader of Russia's VDV (elite airborne) accidentally told the truth in a recently deleted video which caused Vlad to cancel the annual VDV celebration.

According to the UK, this disclosure malfunction confirmed that over half of the VDV deployed to Ukraine - which is the vast majority of the VDV - have been wounded or killed. There has been a lot of stupid talk pretending Russia's military is stronger than before, but losing this high a percentage of your elite airborne force is not good for the military or war effort. This is just one small example of how this war has made Russia weaker.

Russian propaganda is working overtime to convince Russians (and useful idiots abroad) that it's having success. If things were really going to plan 530 days into this 3 day war, why would they have to lie so much? I think we all know the answer to that one.

People in Russia are starting to figure it out though. I don't condone this disgusting behavior but apparently a wounded Russian soldier was horribly beaten by Russians accusing him of being a murderer. Shades of Vietnam veteran treatment in the US - this is what happens when you fight an unpopular war with bad motives. It will only get worse in Russia as more of the population wakes up.

Finally, here's a short update from RUSI. RUSI is pretty well regarded British think tank that has been sourced in this thread a number of times. Any time they say anything complimentary of the Russian war effort they become very popular with the shills. This update will have them labeled as neocons who can't be trusted lol.


Your content is usually sourced from highly partisan pundits or neocon-aligned official sources, almost all of that content fails on these two premises:

1- It presents a false narrative of Russian military capabilities and inventory in what is essentially a war of attrition. The question you should ask here is, how does Ukraine compare with Russia in this particular aspect?

2- It builds a false narrative based on very limited and often dubious anecdotal evidence. There is one Telegram video of a Russian military disciplinary case, is that representative of overall troop morale and the conduct of military operations? And once again, how does it compare with the incidence of that occurrence among Ukrainian ranks?

Your material invariably fails to clear these two basic points.


Once again, my posts should not be misconstrued as rooting for the other side, my position is based on the basic understanding that there is no military solution for Ukraine, the country is sinking further every day, and that this war boils down to a cynical, cold-blooded geopolitical attempt to weaken Russia by using Ukraine. But even that attempt is failing and backfiring, as Russia has sustained the economic and military challenge, while Ukraine is getting wrecked.

I believe that calling this out, and pushing for a peaceful settlement is the best and only way to stop this largely one-sided massacre, and if you truly care about Ukraine, you should be on board with this.
When I was growing up in the sketchy parts of LA, there was a policy I had that was critical to my survival and sanity when confronted by a bully.

Even if I was had no chance of winning, I was going to make it so costly for the bully that the bully or another bully had to think twice before trying to bully me again.

I didn't negotiate different levels of humiliation I would tolerate.

There is no way that Russia will negotiate anything short of taking important things from Ukraine because they can.

And if we push for Ukraine to do that, the rest of the world is watching. This is not just an end game with Ukraine and then we all move back to perpetual peace every else. Now, if Ukraine wants to surrender, then fine.

Some may have argued that Civil War was costly and maybe we should have negotiated something to avoid the casualties, but sometimes expedient solutions end up more costly. If you were so outraged by the death in Ukraine, you would have more anger towards Russia. But I suspect this is less about compassion and more about an academic argument.
Cal88
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calbear93 said:

Cal88 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Apparently the leader of Russia's VDV (elite airborne) accidentally told the truth in a recently deleted video which caused Vlad to cancel the annual VDV celebration.

According to the UK, this disclosure malfunction confirmed that over half of the VDV deployed to Ukraine - which is the vast majority of the VDV - have been wounded or killed. There has been a lot of stupid talk pretending Russia's military is stronger than before, but losing this high a percentage of your elite airborne force is not good for the military or war effort. This is just one small example of how this war has made Russia weaker.

Russian propaganda is working overtime to convince Russians (and useful idiots abroad) that it's having success. If things were really going to plan 530 days into this 3 day war, why would they have to lie so much? I think we all know the answer to that one.

People in Russia are starting to figure it out though. I don't condone this disgusting behavior but apparently a wounded Russian soldier was horribly beaten by Russians accusing him of being a murderer. Shades of Vietnam veteran treatment in the US - this is what happens when you fight an unpopular war with bad motives. It will only get worse in Russia as more of the population wakes up.

Finally, here's a short update from RUSI. RUSI is pretty well regarded British think tank that has been sourced in this thread a number of times. Any time they say anything complimentary of the Russian war effort they become very popular with the shills. This update will have them labeled as neocons who can't be trusted lol.


Your content is usually sourced from highly partisan pundits or neocon-aligned official sources, almost all of that content fails on these two premises:

1- It presents a false narrative of Russian military capabilities and inventory in what is essentially a war of attrition. The question you should ask here is, how does Ukraine compare with Russia in this particular aspect?

2- It builds a false narrative based on very limited and often dubious anecdotal evidence. There is one Telegram video of a Russian military disciplinary case, is that representative of overall troop morale and the conduct of military operations? And once again, how does it compare with the incidence of that occurrence among Ukrainian ranks?

Your material invariably fails to clear these two basic points.


Once again, my posts should not be misconstrued as rooting for the other side, my position is based on the basic understanding that there is no military solution for Ukraine, the country is sinking further every day, and that this war boils down to a cynical, cold-blooded geopolitical attempt to weaken Russia by using Ukraine. But even that attempt is failing and backfiring, as Russia has sustained the economic and military challenge, while Ukraine is getting wrecked.

I believe that calling this out, and pushing for a peaceful settlement is the best and only way to stop this largely one-sided massacre, and if you truly care about Ukraine, you should be on board with this.
When I was growing up in the sketchy parts of LA, there was a policy I had that was critical to my survival and sanity when confronted by a bully.

Even if I was had no chance of winning, I was going to make it so costly for the bully that the bully or another bully had to think twice before trying to bully me again.

I didn't negotiate different levels of humiliation I would tolerate.

There is no way that Russia will negotiate anything short of taking important things from Ukraine because they can.

And if we push for Ukraine to do that, the rest of the world is watching. This is not just an end game with Ukraine and then we all move back to perpetual peace every else. Now, if Ukraine wants to surrender, then fine.

Some may have argued that Civil War was costly and maybe we should have negotiated something to avoid the casualties, but sometimes expedient solutions end up more costly. If you were so outraged by the death in Ukraine, you would have more anger towards Russia. But I suspect this is less about compassion and more about an academic argument.

The reason Ukraine is fighting in the first place is twofold,

1- We have put in place in Kiev through the armed 2014 Maidan Coup the most radical form of western Ukrainian nationalism, an ideology that is hostile not just to Russia but to Ukraine's own Russian and russophone minority, a recipe for civil war, which according to many high-level American analysts like William Burns, would precipitate Russian intervention, exactly as it happened last year.



2- We have armed Ukraine to the gills, since 2014, building up the largest military force in Europe, and continue to mislead the western and Ukrainian public alike as to their real chances to militarily defeat Russia.


Furthermore, we have actively scuttled any chance for a reasonable settlement to the Donbass and Crimean issues, be it the Minsk Agreements, or the Istanbul peace talks. We are still pushing Ukraine to fight today, even advocating aggressive military tactics that have proven to be exorbitantly costly to Ukraine - the "counteroffensive" in the south.

US foreign policy is more complex than the narrative you've been sold, which reduces geopolitics to moralistic black and white, good and bad binary allegories of the bully/Hitler figure out there we need to stop, tethered with the domino theory - same recipe as in Vietnam, Iraq, Libya or Syria.
calbear93
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Cal88 said:

calbear93 said:

Cal88 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Apparently the leader of Russia's VDV (elite airborne) accidentally told the truth in a recently deleted video which caused Vlad to cancel the annual VDV celebration.

According to the UK, this disclosure malfunction confirmed that over half of the VDV deployed to Ukraine - which is the vast majority of the VDV - have been wounded or killed. There has been a lot of stupid talk pretending Russia's military is stronger than before, but losing this high a percentage of your elite airborne force is not good for the military or war effort. This is just one small example of how this war has made Russia weaker.

Russian propaganda is working overtime to convince Russians (and useful idiots abroad) that it's having success. If things were really going to plan 530 days into this 3 day war, why would they have to lie so much? I think we all know the answer to that one.

People in Russia are starting to figure it out though. I don't condone this disgusting behavior but apparently a wounded Russian soldier was horribly beaten by Russians accusing him of being a murderer. Shades of Vietnam veteran treatment in the US - this is what happens when you fight an unpopular war with bad motives. It will only get worse in Russia as more of the population wakes up.

Finally, here's a short update from RUSI. RUSI is pretty well regarded British think tank that has been sourced in this thread a number of times. Any time they say anything complimentary of the Russian war effort they become very popular with the shills. This update will have them labeled as neocons who can't be trusted lol.


Your content is usually sourced from highly partisan pundits or neocon-aligned official sources, almost all of that content fails on these two premises:

1- It presents a false narrative of Russian military capabilities and inventory in what is essentially a war of attrition. The question you should ask here is, how does Ukraine compare with Russia in this particular aspect?

2- It builds a false narrative based on very limited and often dubious anecdotal evidence. There is one Telegram video of a Russian military disciplinary case, is that representative of overall troop morale and the conduct of military operations? And once again, how does it compare with the incidence of that occurrence among Ukrainian ranks?

Your material invariably fails to clear these two basic points.


Once again, my posts should not be misconstrued as rooting for the other side, my position is based on the basic understanding that there is no military solution for Ukraine, the country is sinking further every day, and that this war boils down to a cynical, cold-blooded geopolitical attempt to weaken Russia by using Ukraine. But even that attempt is failing and backfiring, as Russia has sustained the economic and military challenge, while Ukraine is getting wrecked.

I believe that calling this out, and pushing for a peaceful settlement is the best and only way to stop this largely one-sided massacre, and if you truly care about Ukraine, you should be on board with this.
When I was growing up in the sketchy parts of LA, there was a policy I had that was critical to my survival and sanity when confronted by a bully.

Even if I was had no chance of winning, I was going to make it so costly for the bully that the bully or another bully had to think twice before trying to bully me again.

I didn't negotiate different levels of humiliation I would tolerate.

There is no way that Russia will negotiate anything short of taking important things from Ukraine because they can.

And if we push for Ukraine to do that, the rest of the world is watching. This is not just an end game with Ukraine and then we all move back to perpetual peace every else. Now, if Ukraine wants to surrender, then fine.

Some may have argued that Civil War was costly and maybe we should have negotiated something to avoid the casualties, but sometimes expedient solutions end up more costly. If you were so outraged by the death in Ukraine, you would have more anger towards Russia. But I suspect this is less about compassion and more about an academic argument.

The reason Ukraine is fighting in the first place is twofold,

1- We have put in place in Kiev through the armed 2014 Maidan Coup the most radical form of western Ukrainian nationalism, an ideology that is hostile not just to Russia but to Ukraine's own Russian and russophone minority, a recipe for civil war, which according to many high-level American analysts like William Burns, would precipitate Russian intervention, exactly as it happened last year.



2- We have armed Ukraine to the gills, since 2014, building up the largest military force in Europe, and continue to mislead the western and Ukrainian public alike as to their real chances to militarily defeat Russia.


Furthermore, we have actively scuttled any chance for a reasonable settlement to the Donbass and Crimean issues, be it the Minsk Agreements, or the Istanbul peace talks. We are still pushing Ukraine to fight today, even advocating aggressive military tactics that have proven to be exorbitantly costly to Ukraine - the "counteroffensive" in the south.

US foreign policy is more complex than the narrative you've been sold, which reduces geopolitics to moralistic black and white, good and bad binary allegories of the bully/Hitler figure out there we need to stop, tethered with the domino theory - same recipe as in Vietnam, Iraq, Libya or Syria.
It is not a moralistic black and white.

It is common sense.

It's like all of the cities with progressive DAs. You need deterrence. You need to stop rationalizing away criminal behavior.

We did not put anything in place. We influenced, to a much lesser degree than Russia did before and what it did in Belarus and Hungary. You lose a lot of credibility when you bemoan our behavior when you excuse the same behavior to a greater degree by our opposition.

I am not even talking about good or bad other than from a perspective of what serves our global and internal interest the best and what maintains our standing in the world. And capitulating to Russia is not it.
movielover
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The comic Zelensky ran on one issue - inking a peace deal with Russia.

After Russia entered Ukraine with a small force, Ukraine did come to the negotiating table. A tentative deal was signed. We dispatched Boris Johnson (UK) to scuttle the deal. We promised Zelensky full backing, and thought sanctions and war would "weaken Russia". If failed.

FWIW, I believe Colonel McGregor said Germany invaded Poland with 1.5 million men, i.e., Russia wasn't invading Ukraine with a substantially smaller force.
BearHunter
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The Uni-Party sent the heavy artillery to Ukraine.
Cal88
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calbear93 said:


...
We did not put anything in place. We influenced, to a much lesser degree than Russia did before and what it did in Belarus and Hungary. You lose a lot of credibility when you bemoan our behavior when you excuse the same behavior to a greater degree by our opposition.

I am not even talking about good or bad other than from a perspective of what serves our global and internal interest the best and what maintains our standing in the world. And capitulating to Russia is not it.

We absolutely did put the current regime in place, there is overwhelming evidence for this, including recordings of Nuland dictating her staffing choices at the top in Kiev.

We also did the same thing to Russia in the 1990s, financing Yeltsin's campaign collapsing their economy and social structure, precipitating the complete economic, monetary and societal collapse of that country, there is overwhelming evidence for that too, notably Jeffrey Sachs' testimony, he was at the heart of that process.


The irony is that this adversarial and cynical course of action is ultimately going to backfire, precipitating the decline of US$ monetary hegemony that was put in place in the 70s, and creating a tight Russo-Chinese alliance that is winning over 3/4 of the planet, which many geopoliticians like Brzezinski and Kennan warned about.

Our standing in the world would have greatly benefitted from stepping back from the Wolfowitz neoconservative doctrine which advocated actively striking down any potential power that would rise to challenge our position as the world's sole hegemon. Instead we are doubling down, with Ukraine as the new geopolitical hammer.
sycasey
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calbear93 said:

We did not put anything in place. We influenced, to a much lesser degree than Russia did before and what it did in Belarus and Hungary. You lose a lot of credibility when you bemoan our behavior when you excuse the same behavior to a greater degree by our opposition.

It's pretty obvious why he keeps losing "credibility" in this way: because he is on Russia's side.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

calbear93 said:

We did not put anything in place. We influenced, to a much lesser degree than Russia did before and what it did in Belarus and Hungary. You lose a lot of credibility when you bemoan our behavior when you excuse the same behavior to a greater degree by our opposition.

It's pretty obvious why he keeps losing "credibility" in this way: because he is on Russia's side.

Whose side are you on, Ukraine's? ...To the last Ukrainian??
dimitrig
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

calbear93 said:

We did not put anything in place. We influenced, to a much lesser degree than Russia did before and what it did in Belarus and Hungary. You lose a lot of credibility when you bemoan our behavior when you excuse the same behavior to a greater degree by our opposition.

It's pretty obvious why he keeps losing "credibility" in this way: because he is on Russia's side.

Whose side are you on, Ukraine's? ...To the last Ukrainian??


Didn't even deny it

Cal88
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sycasey said:

calbear93 said:

We did not put anything in place. We influenced, to a much lesser degree than Russia did before and what it did in Belarus and Hungary. You lose a lot of credibility when you bemoan our behavior when you excuse the same behavior to a greater degree by our opposition.

It's pretty obvious why he keeps losing "credibility" in this way: because he is on Russia's side.

You're on the side of policies that have gotten over 300,000 Ukrainians killed,

I'm on the side of policies that would have saved their lives, and those of hundreds of thousands more to come, and that furthermore would have preserved Ukraine as an independent country, in which minority rights are respected,

And don't conflate "credibility" with popularity.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

calbear93 said:

We did not put anything in place. We influenced, to a much lesser degree than Russia did before and what it did in Belarus and Hungary. You lose a lot of credibility when you bemoan our behavior when you excuse the same behavior to a greater degree by our opposition.

It's pretty obvious why he keeps losing "credibility" in this way: because he is on Russia's side.

You're on the side of policies that have gotten over 300,000 Ukrainians killed,

I'm on the side of policies that would have saved their lives, and those of hundreds of thousands more to come, and that furthermore would have preserved Ukraine as an independent country, in which minority rights are respected,

And don't conflate "credibility" with popularity.
Russia's policy of invading Ukraine is getting Ukrainians killed. I oppose that.

You're in favor of the policies that precipitated that invasion.

Eastern Oregon Bear
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

calbear93 said:

We did not put anything in place. We influenced, to a much lesser degree than Russia did before and what it did in Belarus and Hungary. You lose a lot of credibility when you bemoan our behavior when you excuse the same behavior to a greater degree by our opposition.

It's pretty obvious why he keeps losing "credibility" in this way: because he is on Russia's side.

You're on the side of policies that have gotten over 300,000 Ukrainians killed,

I'm on the side of policies that would have saved their lives, and those of hundreds of thousands more to come, and that furthermore would have preserved Ukraine as an independent country, in which minority rights are respected,

And don't conflate "credibility" with popularity.
Russia's policy of invading Ukraine is getting Ukrainians killed. I oppose that.

You're in favor of the policies that precipitated that invasion.


Maybe if Russia hadn't been invading neighboring countries for centuries, those countries wouldn't looking for ways to discourage future Russian invasions.
Cal88
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:



You're in favor of the policies that precipitated that invasion.


Maybe if Russia hadn't been invading neighboring countries for centuries, those countries wouldn't looking for ways to discourage future Russian invasions.

Unlike all other historical imperial powers, who didn't confine their invasions to their neighbors?



movielover
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BearHunter said:



The Uni-Party sent the heavy artillery to Ukraine.


I thought UniParty Crispy Creme had gastric bypass surgery?
BearHunter
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Cal88
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The Russians have been making steady gains in the northern front:



Important testimony from a Ukrainian soldier, who notes the disconnect between the narrative sold to his own compatriots on Russian military ineptness and the reality on the front:





Ukraine has suffered heavy losses in its constant attempts to breach the southern line, losses replenished using the usual methods:




Despite having received $100+ billion in military aid, Ukraine is resorting to confiscating civilian vehicles. I would guess most of these will be resold for a profit, same business model as the US civil forfeiture vehicle theft program:


Complaints building up from the rank and file:

Biden Crime Family
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More bad news for the people that put Ukraine flags in their profiles



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