sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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I dunno, seems like it would be pretty easy for Russia to stop the war.

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Ukraine can't stop the war because they feel Russia would push further, even while at peace? Russia won't accept a demarcation within their currently held territory?

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Excuse me, which country invaded which?

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Russia and Ukraine were allies with shared interests. Many would say Ukraine was a puppet of Russia, as they were using their Eastern industrial territories as well as using Crimea for Black Sea access and had their naval base there. There was a U.S. supported coup against the Ukrainian government in Kiev, and the pro-Western pro-Nato faction took power. In the East, the areas with the strongest Russia support rebelled. Russia took Crimea without bloodshed. The Donbass rebelled and has been fighting Ukraine with Russian support. NATO and Ukraine were building a large force to take back Donbass and Crimea. Russia invaded.

oski003 said:

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Russia invaded.

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Correct!

sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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Russia invaded.

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Correct!

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The Kyiv regime, which was put in place through the violent CIA-backed Maidan Coup that overthrew the democratically-elected government, invaded the Donbass and tried to crush the rebellion in the heavily Russian east and south of the country.




Who is invading whom here??

Cal88 said:

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No amount of firehose of wild exaggerations and PR stunts can hide this bottom line, that Ukraine has no military solution, and is being used as cannon fodder.

-350,000+ Killed in action
-At least as many wounded, including 50,000 amputees.

Enough already, get it stopped.

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With the summer counteroffensive, Colonel McGregor now says at least 400K KIA and 60K amputees.

sycasey said:

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I dunno, seems like it would be pretty easy for Russia to stop the war.

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Not really. If Ukraine/ NATO don't have the common sense to accept defeat and join peace talks, here's where we go:

1. Russia takes Odesssa and the remaining Eastern third of Ukraine
2. Russia moves towards the Polish border
3. We risk the US / Poland entering the war
4. We risk a Sullivan / functionaries pushing "tactical nukes"

FWIW, I emailed a friend tonight, a professor in DC, who pretends to be Independent. He appears Liberal to me, reads the NYT and WashPost, has TDS. Here were the highlights:

- he was unaware of Ukraine / NATO being critically low on Ammo
- pestered me for sources
- he then told me he's been to Russia and Ukraine (call to authority), and he has paid subscriptions to the WSJ and Financial Times of London
- defensive about his lack of knowledge
- "So. What's your point. Surrender? We have nukes. Lots."
- When I asked him what military experts he relied upon: "Lobbyist for military manufacturer. No joke."

‼️MUST WATCH:
“The US wrecked Afghanistan for 40 years destroyed that country mercilessly cynically ignorantly brutally.

And they're gonna do the same with Ukraine unless the Ukrainians wake up and say God we're being killed by this approach.”
— Jeffrey Sachs pic.twitter.com/G3H7EsWodb

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) August 9, 2023

Do you guys object to Putin invading and occupying any of the former Eastern Bloc countries?

bearister said:

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Do you guys object to Putin invading and occupying any of the former Eastern Bloc countries?

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If that were to happen, they would blame the US.

They idiotically claim that the US, by supporting Ukraine, is the one that is responsible for the genocide of the Ukrainian people and the destruction of their sovereignty.

In their view, criminals aren't responsible for their crimes, the people to blame are those who help the victims.

Obviously it's a non-sensical way to view the world, and the answer is that this is all propaganda coming from people who support Putin now and will support him when he expands his revanchism.

If they really believed in this realism concept, they would claim that the US is acting within its power to shape the world as we see fit. They would further claim that the US is getting fantastic return on its money with virtually no domestic downside. We are spending just 3% of our military budget to meaningfully attrit Russian military strength, learning a lot in the process and making Russia far weaker and less able to pose a threat to us for many years to come. From a national security standpoint, the "realists" would celebrate the US's role. Instead they pretend to be realists when they support Putin and pretend to be compassionate when they blame the US for Putin murdering Ukrainians. They aren't serious people and their views are not credible. That's why ignore is the best policy - otherwise we just end up amplifying their propaganda by giving them a chance to spread their vile lies.

Well, if they use that logic they have to also park the responsibility of 1.1M deceased North Vietnamese during the Vietnam War on Russia's doorstep.

bearister said:

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Do you guys object to Putin invading and occupying any of the former Eastern Bloc countries?

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And do you object to us supplying the weapons and Ukraine supplies the bodies to prevent Putin creep? I can't imagine I'd like that one much as a Ukrainian if I had the choice. Matter of fact, twist that 180 degrees and that is exactly what we are doing for us.

I'm just trying to figure out what the line is Putin could cross where discomfort sets in for some here.

bearister said:

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I'm just trying to figure out what the line is Putin could cross where discomfort sets in for some here.

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Invading Ukraine is a line he certainly crossed. It doesn't mean that there can't be peace without demanding their full and complete withdrawal. NATO would rather assist and arm Ukraine to fight a prolonged war and take the Donbass and Crimea, which is what NATO's long-term plan appeared to be anyway.

oski003 said:

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bearister said:

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I'm just trying to figure out what the line is Putin could cross where discomfort sets in for some here.

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Invading Ukraine is a line he certainly crossed. It doesn't mean that there can't be peace without demanding their full and complete withdrawal. NATO would rather assist and arm Ukraine to fight a prolonged war and take the Donbass and Crimea, which is what NATO's long-term plan appeared to be anyway.

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Ukraine would rather fight a prolonged war, at least up to this point. Maybe their minds will change.

Unit2Sucks said:

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bearister said:

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Do you guys object to Putin invading and occupying any of the former Eastern Bloc countries?

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If that were to happen, they would blame the US.

They idiotically claim that the US, by supporting Ukraine, is the one that is responsible for the genocide of the Ukrainian people and the destruction of their sovereignty.

In their view, criminals aren't responsible for their crimes, the people to blame are those who help the victims.

Obviously it's a non-sensical way to view the world, and the answer is that this is all propaganda coming from people who support Putin now and will support him when he expands his revanchism.

If they really believed in this realism concept, they would claim that the US is acting within its power to shape the world as we see fit. They would further claim that the US is getting fantastic return on its money with virtually no domestic downside. We are spending just 3% of our military budget to meaningfully attrit Russian military strength, learning a lot in the process and making Russia far weaker and less able to pose a threat to us for many years to come. From a national security standpoint, the "realists" would celebrate the US's role. Instead they pretend to be realists when they support Putin and pretend to be compassionate when they blame the US for Putin murdering Ukrainians. They aren't serious people and their views are not credible. That's why ignore is the best policy - otherwise we just end up amplifying their propaganda by giving them a chance to spread their vile lies.

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The current core belief of both the right and left wing extremes is basically "America Bad." As in, the USA controls everything and therefore all strife in the world can be traced back to American influence. It's an illogical viewpoint, especially considering the multiple examples we have of other countries not doing what America wants, but still it persists.

bearister said:

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Do you guys object to Putin invading and occupying any of the former Eastern Bloc countries?

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No matter how many times I try to explain it, the notion that Russia is going to invade its neighbors to rebuild a Soviet Union or Russian empire 2.0 is pure fantasy. It's a similar type of rhetoric that was built up for Vietnam and Iraq to manipulate the public into going to war.

Russia has had its well-defined red lines, and Ukraine has been used to cross them and push Russia into an invasion that Putin was reluctant to do, and this according to the analysis of William Burns, CIA chief who wrote that assessment while he was US Ambassador to Russia.

We knew exactly what these red lines were, and pushed Ukraine to cross them.

Cal88 said:

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bearister said:

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Do you guys object to Putin invading and occupying any of the former Eastern Bloc countries?

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No matter how many times I try to explain it, the notion that Russia is going to invade its neighbors to rebuild a Soviet Union or Russian empire 2.0 is pure fantasy. It's a similar type of rhetoric that was built up for Vietnam and Iraq to manipulate the public into going to war.

Russia has had its well-defined red lines, and Ukraine has been used to cross them and push Russia into an invasion that Putin was reluctant to do, and this according to the analysis of William Burns, CIA chief who wrote that assessment while he was US Ambassador to Russia.

We knew exactly what these red lines were, and pushed Ukraine to cross them.

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Bearister implied that Putin invaded other countries since taking power. Which countries is he talking about and what is your opinion on those "invasions?"

oski003 said:

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Cal88 said:

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bearister said:

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Do you guys object to Putin invading and occupying any of the former Eastern Bloc countries?

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No matter how many times I try to explain it, the notion that Russia is going to invade its neighbors to rebuild a Soviet Union or Russian empire 2.0 is pure fantasy. It's a similar type of rhetoric that was built up for Vietnam and Iraq to manipulate the public into going to war.

Russia has had its well-defined red lines, and Ukraine has been used to cross them and push Russia into an invasion that Putin was reluctant to do, and this according to the analysis of William Burns, CIA chief who wrote that assessment while he was US Ambassador to Russia.

We knew exactly what these red lines were, and pushed Ukraine to cross them.

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Bearister implied that Putin invaded other countries since taking power. Which countries is he talking about and what is your opinion on those "invasions?"

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Don't evade the hypothetical. It reminds me of a Republican politician that was asked 4 times if he would support tRump if he got convicted and 4 times his response was, "tRump won''t be convicted."

Hypothetical question: Would you have an objection if Putin invaded and occupied any of the former Eastern Bloc countries?" Responding that Putin would never do that is evasive and non responsive (DeSantis spent an entire debate not responding to questions as posed but responding to to questions not asked that allowed him to shovel his narrative).

And as for the suggestion that my prior question implied that Putin has already invaded a former Eastern Bloc country, that, my friend, is a pretty tortured interpretation. Are you that guy who blew fingers off as a kid because of your interpretation of the instruction label on firecrackers that read, "Light fuse, lay on ground?"

….but you have to admit that it makes you giggle how many Russians are getting killed by American weapons when you consider how many American soldiers have been killed by Russian weapons since 1945.

….and I don't disagree that both sides lost soldiers as a result of foreign adventurism that they shouldn't have been involved in.

bearister said:

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oski003 said:

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Cal88 said:

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bearister said:

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Do you guys object to Putin invading and occupying any of the former Eastern Bloc countries?

---

No matter how many times I try to explain it, the notion that Russia is going to invade its neighbors to rebuild a Soviet Union or Russian empire 2.0 is pure fantasy. It's a similar type of rhetoric that was built up for Vietnam and Iraq to manipulate the public into going to war.

Russia has had its well-defined red lines, and Ukraine has been used to cross them and push Russia into an invasion that Putin was reluctant to do, and this according to the analysis of William Burns, CIA chief who wrote that assessment while he was US Ambassador to Russia.

We knew exactly what these red lines were, and pushed Ukraine to cross them.

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Bearister implied that Putin invaded other countries since taking power. Which countries is he talking about and what is your opinion on those "invasions?"

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Don't evade the hypothetical. It reminds me of a Republican politician that was asked 4 times if he would support tRump if he got convicted and 4 times his response was, "tRump won''t be convicted."

Hypothetical question: Would you have an objection if Putin invaded and occupied any of the former Eastern Bloc countries?" Responding that Putin would never do that is evasive and non responsive (DeSantis spent an entire debate not responding to questions as posed but responding to to questions not asked that allowed him to shovel his narrative).

And as for the suggestion that my prior question implied that Putin has already invaded a former Eastern Bloc country, that, my friend, is a pretty tortured interpretation. Are you that guy who blew fingers off as a kid because of your interpretation of the instruction label on firecrackers that read, "Light fuse, lay on ground?"

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I hope the situation doesn't escalate into war between Russia and the Eastern Bloc. It would depend what if any event escalated the situation such that Russia or Belarus invaded. I initially didn't see the Eastern Bloc qualifier and thought you were hinting at the conflict between Georgia and Russia, which has some eery similarities to Ukraine and Georgia.

I hate whatever country attempts to invade another without having actually been attacked themselves. Yes, that includes when the US does it. This time Russia did it.

oski003 said:

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bearister said:

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….but you have to admit that it makes you giggle how many Russians are getting killed by American weapons when you consider how many American soldiers have been killed by Russian weapons since 1945.

….and I don't disagree that both sides lost soldiers as a result of foreign adventurism that they shouldn't have been involved in.

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Our weapons are attacking Russians. Russians aren't attacking us. The natural consequence of what you posted flows from such. If you hate Russia and view them as a hostile US enemy, you could certainly giggle.

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Were we attacking Russians in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan as our soldiers were eating Russian lead? F@uck them. Karma a b@itch, Vladdy!

*In most cases it is the politicians that send the soldiers into combat that deserve to die, not the soldiers.

bearister said:

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oski003 said:

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bearister said:

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….but you have to admit that it makes you giggle how many Russians are getting killed by American weapons when you consider how many American soldiers have been killed by Russian weapons since 1945.

….and I don't disagree that both sides lost soldiers as a result of foreign adventurism that they shouldn't have been involved in.

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Our weapons are attacking Russians. Russians aren't attacking us. The natural consequence of what you posted flows from such. If you hate Russia and view them as a hostile US enemy, you could certainly giggle.

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Were we attacking Russians in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan as or soldiers were eating Russian lead? F@uck them. Karma a b@itch, Vladdy!

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Cold War forever, baby!

Why don't we just compromise and have registered Democrats pay a special tax to pay for weapons to send to Ukraine?

BearHunter said:

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Why don't we just compromise and have registered Democrats pay a special tax to pay for weapons to send to Ukraine?

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It don't work that way, comrade.

bearister said:

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….but you have to admit that it makes you giggle how many Russians are getting killed by American weapons when you consider how many American soldiers have been killed by Russian weapons since 1945.

….and I don't disagree that both sides lost soldiers as a result of foreign adventurism that they shouldn't have been involved in.

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Sane people don't giggle at the loss of life, even of our enemies.

One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic.

Zippergate said:

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One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic.

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Russia, with regard to invading the Ukraine…





Cry me a f@ucking river, Vladdy.

bearister said:

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Russia, with regard to invading the Ukraine…

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They are focused on the propaganda war.

According to the Russians, they won the war about a year ago. Nothing f****** surprises me anymore.

— Richy rich fella🇬🇧 🚫 🇷🇺 🚫 💖🇺🇦💖 (@Richardrich181) August 27, 2023

No shit. pic.twitter.com/g1VjKVrAKn

— Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦 (@IAPonomarenko) August 26, 2023

This one is great. Russia's 205th brigade has been getting pummeled so soldiers have been complaining. Rather than doing anything productive, the pencil pushers in Moscow decided to film propaganda instead. Sorry but that's not what winning looks like.

Can't make this up. You may remember the complaints we shared about the Russian 205th Brigade which is apparently having struggles in the Dnieper islands. Anyway, rather than helping their "boys", official propagandists decided that deception was the way to go and filmed a staged… pic.twitter.com/pM0YTyPIPQ

— Dmitri (@wartranslated) August 27, 2023

Regardelss of Russia's low grade wartime propaganda, there is a lot happening right now across the fronts and both sides are making moves. Ukraine believes it's positioning itself to make bigger gains in this offensive, and Russia continues to make false claims about just about every facet of the war so it's impossible to take anything they say seriously.

Here's a first hand account from someone in the offensive. This is not a rosy account of the war - it mainly focuses on the challenge of working through Russia's lines.

Exceptional thread and profound insights into the counter-offensive in the South by @solonko1648 (Olexandr Solon'ko), servicemember of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. In his analysis, he sheds light on the situation, discussing both the challenges and achievements.

Translation:… pic.twitter.com/LW1eAHywma

— Tatarigami_UA (@Tatarigami_UA) August 26, 2023

There are other views that are rosier and which project that Ukraine is continuing to make tactical gains and has a chance to disrupt Russia's GLOC to Crimea.

Meanwhile, the "realists" understand that this war has massively moved forward our understanding of modern warfare between peer countries where no one has clear air superiority. I would hope that our stategists at the DOD are going to make some meaningful changes to our weapon design and procurement with what we've learned. It doesn't mean we should abandon massive weapons programs, but there is a lot of cheap commodity weapons that we can leverage successfully - as Ukraine has done.

The UAV is made almost entirely of wax-impregnated paper and rubber bands, which together makes it almost invisible to the radar.

— Clash Report (@clashreport) August 27, 2023