The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

919,690 Views | 10132 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by Cal88
Cal88
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7:48a, 2/14/24
Ukraine as cannon fodder to get to Russia:


March 2022 Istanbul peace agreement, Russia offered to withdraw from the Donbass in exchange for Ukrainian neutrality:


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Unit2Sucks
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9:57a, 2/14/24
Russia will continue to pretend that this 3-day war is going to plan and propagandists will continue to pretend that Russia is stronger than ever. On the bright side, even though 1/3 of the country is 55+ in age, the men only live to 64 so Russia's going to see some more demographic change.






More evidence that despite the pyrrhic victory at Avdiivka will come at an extremely high price.



Bonus shill tweet.

edit, second bonus shill tweet.


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movielover
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 11:36a, 2/14/24
The last few videos from History Legends reveal Russia advancing on multiple fronts, and Ukraine scrambling to fill holes.

Russia also hit a distribution point of soldiers 5-10 kilometers away from the front lines, reportedly killing 1500 new Ukranian troops. No bueno.

HL appears to be unbiased, showing when Ukraine took out a number of Russians on a recent battle where a specific Russian group was moving stupidly in open, dangerous terrain. His team (?) shows both sides.
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Unit2Sucks
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12:23p, 2/14/24
Latest dumb example of Russian propaganda to attempt to convince useful idiots that the war is going better than it is for them. They concocted this idiotic notion they could gaslight people into believing they killed 1500 Ukrainian troops in Selidovo. They did this through a coordinated propaganda campaign. Unfortunately for Russia, they are terrible at coordination (in addition to war) so they released the news before they launched the strike.

To be clear, the strike was never aimed at Ukrainian troop concentrations - they hit a civilian hospital.



Russian shills are also starting to chew their fingernails over Ukraine's deployment of GLSDBs. These were built by Boeing and should effectively double the distance previously achievable with HIMARs. And unlike Russian munitions these are incredibly accurate (like to within 1 meter at a 150km distance). They will enable Ukraine to make Russia even stronger than before.



Great video of Nixon in 1994 predicting with astonishing accuracy what has transpired in Russia. I'm not sure he thought so many useful idiots in America would support the Russian despot however.


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Zippergate
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In reply to Cal88 • 4:55p, 2/14/24
Let's take a look at Russia fiscally and financially relative to the US.
Russian government debt is 20% vs 130%+ and growing rapidly.
Russia has a massive current account surplus https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/current-account-to-gdp whereas the US has a negative and growing current account deficit.
Russia has 8% of its GDP in gold reserves. The US is at less than 2%. The US has a net negative asset position of a staggering 18 TRILLION dollars https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IIPUSNETIQ/ Seems like foreigners might want a return on those assets at some point.

In short, Russia's financial position is rock solid and sustainable. (Some much for neocon's sanctionomics). In contrast, the US position appears fine on the surface but is completely unsustainable and there is zero evidence that the US has the political will to do anything about it. Which totally explains why we are spending billions that we don't have to prop up a authoritarian kleptocratic government in a war that it can't possibly win. Some 4-d chess by the neocons.
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dajo9
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In reply to Zippergate • 6:55p, 2/14/24
Zippergate said:
Let's take a look at Russia fiscally and financially relative to the US.
Russian government debt is 20% vs 130%+ and growing rapidly.
Russia has a massive current account surplus https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/current-account-to-gdp whereas the US has a negative and growing current account deficit.
Russia has 8% of its GDP in gold reserves. The US is at less than 2%. The US has a net negative asset position of a staggering 18 TRILLION dollars https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IIPUSNETIQ/ Seems like foreigners might want a return on those assets at some point.

In short, Russia's financial position is rock solid and sustainable. (Some much for neocon's sanctionomics). In contrast, the US position appears fine on the surface but is completely unsustainable and there is zero evidence that the US has the political will to do anything about it. Which totally explains why we are spending billions that we don't have to prop up a authoritarian kleptocratic government in a war that it can't possibly win. Some 4-d chess by the neocons.


You nailed it. You should move to Russia so your children can have a future.
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Cal88
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 8:31p, 2/14/24
Unit2Sucks said:
Latest dumb example of Russian propaganda to attempt to convince useful idiots that the war is going better than it is for them. They concocted this idiotic notion they could gaslight people into believing they killed 1500 Ukrainian troops in Selidovo. They did this through a coordinated propaganda campaign. Unfortunately for Russia, they are terrible at coordination (in addition to war) so they released the news before they launched the strike.

To be clear, the strike was never aimed at Ukrainian troop concentrations - they hit a civilian hospital.


There were two strikes, one on barracks housing Ukrainian troops in Selidove, and the second one (a fairly gutless one TBH - hospitals should not be targeted, period, that is a war crime committed by Russia here) was on that hospital, which was packed with injured Ukrainian soldiers. The Russians released the news of the attack before they struck the hospital, but after they hit the barracks.

Also - Ukrainian official sources are claiming that 3 people were killed and 6 injured in this missile attack on this hospital:



Do you really think only 9 people were killed or injured in this hospital bombing??

The reason why they are lowballing the victims number to that extent is that the great majority of people killed were soldiers, who were packed in these wings.

Despite the fact that most of the victims were soldiers, I think that was a bona fide Russian war crime.
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Cal88
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In reply to dajo9 • 8:43p, 2/14/24
dajo9 said:
Zippergate said:
Let's take a look at Russia fiscally and financially relative to the US.
Russian government debt is 20% vs 130%+ and growing rapidly.
Russia has a massive current account surplus https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/current-account-to-gdp whereas the US has a negative and growing current account deficit.
Russia has 8% of its GDP in gold reserves. The US is at less than 2%. The US has a net negative asset position of a staggering 18 TRILLION dollars https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IIPUSNETIQ/ Seems like foreigners might want a return on those assets at some point.

In short, Russia's financial position is rock solid and sustainable. (Some much for neocon's sanctionomics). In contrast, the US position appears fine on the surface but is completely unsustainable and there is zero evidence that the US has the political will to do anything about it. Which totally explains why we are spending billions that we don't have to prop up a authoritarian kleptocratic government in a war that it can't possibly win. Some 4-d chess by the neocons.


You nailed it. You should move to Russia so your children can have a future.

Every generation of Russians since the 1990s is going to be better off than their parents. That is also true of China. Granted they've started near the bottom, but at this rate their lot is going to be better than those in the West later this century.

Unfortunately in the US and in Europe, the opposite is true. Despite substantial technological progress, generations born after the mid to late 20th century are worse off than their parents.

Perhaps instead of your jingoistic outburst telling people to move to Russia, we could instead identify the causes of the decline and try to reverse it?
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dimitrig
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In reply to Cal88 • 8:45p, 2/14/24
Cal88 said:
Unit2Sucks said:
Latest dumb example of Russian propaganda to attempt to convince useful idiots that the war is going better than it is for them. They concocted this idiotic notion they could gaslight people into believing they killed 1500 Ukrainian troops in Selidovo. They did this through a coordinated propaganda campaign. Unfortunately for Russia, they are terrible at coordination (in addition to war) so they released the news before they launched the strike.

To be clear, the strike was never aimed at Ukrainian troop concentrations - they hit a civilian hospital.


There were two strikes, one on barracks housing Ukrainian troops in Selidove, and the second one (a fairly gutless one TBH - hospitals should not be targeted, period, that is a war crime committed by Russia here) was on that hospital, which was packed with injured Ukrainian soldiers. The Russians released the news of the attack before they struck the hospital, but after they hit the barracks.

Also - Ukrainian official sources are claiming that 3 people were killed and 6 injured in this missile attack on this hospital:



Do you really think only 9 people were killed or injured in this hospital bombing??

The reason why they are lowballing the victims number to that extent is that the great majority of people killed were soldiers, who were packed in these wings.

Despite the fact that most of the victims were soldiers, I think that was a bona fide Russian war crime.


Who are you and what you have done with Cal88?


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bearister
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8:50p, 2/14/24
Why Some U.S. Conservatives Are Finding Common Cause With Russia

https://www.newsweek.com/why-some-us-conservatives-are-finding-common-cause-russia-1751115

" Michael O'Hanlon, director of research in Foreign Policy at the Brookings Institution, told Newsweek that Trump was key to the transformation on the U.S. right.

O'Hanlon said: "I really think it's all about Trump. I can't imagine my GOP friends cozying up to Putin otherwise. And, of course, most Republicans still don't."

Rick Wilson, co-founder of anti-Trump conservative group the Lincoln Project, told Newsweek that some on the U.S. right are seeking to "replace democracy."

He said: "Democracy is hard work, and they want a short cut to achieve their craven policy ends without doing the work.

"They want to put the control of all the people in the hands of a government that reflects their own ideological bias. It's easy to see why they would want to replace democracy with a system that allows that they alone benefit from."

Why does Putin have superfans among the US right wing? | Vladimir Putin | The Guardian


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/01/why-does-putin-have-superfans-among-the-us-right-wing

"While I haven't called up every white nationalist group in the US and Europe for comment, it is fair to say the Russian premier has a fervent fanbase among the far right in the west. Why is this? They love what he has done with Russia. They love the way he has dismantled women's rights. They love his attacks on gay and transgender people. They love his dismissal of western liberalism. Their values align perfectly.

It is not just the racism, homophobia and misogyny that the right love about Putin: it is also his muscle. A Yahoo News/YouGov poll from January found that 62% of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents reckon Putin is a "stronger leader" than Joe Biden; that number rises to 71% among those who name Fox News as their primary source of cable news. Putin's bare-chested photoshoots have done their job, eh?"

"The other aspect is the simple fact that in the polarized landscape of U.S. politics, partisanship trumps national interest and lending any support to Biden is simply unacceptable. If Biden and the Democrats take a position (any position), it must simply be wrong and be viciously opposed. That dynamic has been captured by a viral photo from a Trump rally in 2018 that shows two men proudly wearing "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat" T-shirts. Unfortunately, as we have highlighted, many MAGA politicians are not just talking the talk; they're walking the walk on that front."
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/04/us-politics-ukraine-russia-far-right-left-progressive-horseshoe-theory/
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Big C
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In reply to Cal88 • 10:03p, 2/14/24
Cal88 said:
dajo9 said:
Zippergate said:
Let's take a look at Russia fiscally and financially relative to the US.
Russian government debt is 20% vs 130%+ and growing rapidly.
Russia has a massive current account surplus https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/current-account-to-gdp whereas the US has a negative and growing current account deficit.
Russia has 8% of its GDP in gold reserves. The US is at less than 2%. The US has a net negative asset position of a staggering 18 TRILLION dollars https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IIPUSNETIQ/ Seems like foreigners might want a return on those assets at some point.

In short, Russia's financial position is rock solid and sustainable. (Some much for neocon's sanctionomics). In contrast, the US position appears fine on the surface but is completely unsustainable and there is zero evidence that the US has the political will to do anything about it. Which totally explains why we are spending billions that we don't have to prop up a authoritarian kleptocratic government in a war that it can't possibly win. Some 4-d chess by the neocons.


You nailed it. You should move to Russia so your children can have a future.

Every generation of Russians since the 1990s is going to be better off than their parents. That is also true of China. Granted they've started near the bottom, but at this rate their lot is going to be better than those in the West later this century.

Unfortunately in the US and in Europe, the opposite is true. Despite substantial technological progress, generations born after the mid to late 20th century are worse off than their parents.

Perhaps instead of your jingoistic outburst telling people to move to Russia, we could instead identify the causes of the decline and try to reverse it?

Except for he wasn't really "telling people to move to Russia". Instead, he was making a sarcastic comment to respected poster Zippergate, who had cherrypicked his economic metrics to make Russia sound strong, while knowing damn well that life for his kids would be better here in the USA.

Really many of you should move to Russia! And what I mean by that is, I double-dog dare you to leave the USA ("Oh, the homeless! Oh, the borders! Oh, the transgenders!") and see how great things are in a **** hole country like Russia. Low unemployment though, I can guarantee that! Oh wait, it's low here, too...
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sycasey
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In reply to Big C • 10:20p, 2/14/24
Big C said:
Cal88 said:
dajo9 said:
Zippergate said:
Let's take a look at Russia fiscally and financially relative to the US.
Russian government debt is 20% vs 130%+ and growing rapidly.
Russia has a massive current account surplus https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/current-account-to-gdp whereas the US has a negative and growing current account deficit.
Russia has 8% of its GDP in gold reserves. The US is at less than 2%. The US has a net negative asset position of a staggering 18 TRILLION dollars https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IIPUSNETIQ/ Seems like foreigners might want a return on those assets at some point.

In short, Russia's financial position is rock solid and sustainable. (Some much for neocon's sanctionomics). In contrast, the US position appears fine on the surface but is completely unsustainable and there is zero evidence that the US has the political will to do anything about it. Which totally explains why we are spending billions that we don't have to prop up a authoritarian kleptocratic government in a war that it can't possibly win. Some 4-d chess by the neocons.


You nailed it. You should move to Russia so your children can have a future.

Every generation of Russians since the 1990s is going to be better off than their parents. That is also true of China. Granted they've started near the bottom, but at this rate their lot is going to be better than those in the West later this century.

Unfortunately in the US and in Europe, the opposite is true. Despite substantial technological progress, generations born after the mid to late 20th century are worse off than their parents.

Perhaps instead of your jingoistic outburst telling people to move to Russia, we could instead identify the causes of the decline and try to reverse it?

Except for he wasn't really "telling people to move to Russia". Instead, he was making a sarcastic comment to respected poster Zippergate, who had cherrypicked his economic metrics to make Russia sound strong, while knowing damn well that life for his kids would be better here in the USA.

Really many of you should move to Russia! And what I mean by that is, I double-dog dare you to leave the USA ("Oh, the homeless! Oh, the borders! Oh, the transgenders!") and see how great things are in a **** hole country like Russia. Low unemployment though, I can guarantee that! Oh wait, it's low here, too...
But the streets are cleaner and the subways look nice! Well, at least in the photos I have seen.
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Lets Go Brandon 4
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In reply to Cal88 • 12:10a, 2/15/24
Cal88 said:
Russia is the 6th largest economy PPP, behind China, the US, india, Japan and Germany. It will pass Germany later this decade, as a result of Biden&Blinken blowing up Nordstream and Germany shutting down its nuclear powerplants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Quote:
Russia would be better off economically if they had more debt (i.e. more government spending). Your little expose on Russia's economy failed to cover the size of their economy (behind Italy - ouch).

Foreign debt creates dependence, that's why Russia paid off its crippling debt from the 90s in the 2000s.

Russia produces 3 times as much steel as Italy, 13 times as much wheat, 3.5 times as many cars, and consumes 5.5 times more energy than Italy.

Russia is the 4th largest energy consumer in the world.
https://yearbook.enerdata.net/total-energy/world-consumption-statistics.html

The income tax rate in Russia is 13%, regardless of income.

A gallon of gas costs $2.30 in Russia, a loaf of bread around 60c, a unlimited distance subway ticket in Moscow, arguably the most beautiful underground transport system in the world, costs 80c.
https://media.tacdn.com/media/attractions-splice-spp-674x446/06/71/eb/17.jpg

The poverty rate in Russia, which was over 40% in the 1990s, is lower today than that of the US, UK, Germany, France or Sweden, and dropping still, while it has been rising sharply across the West due to rampant inflation and other factors.

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dajo9
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3:25a, 2/15/24
It's all there for the taking
https://moscowestates.com/
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bearister
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In reply to Lets Go Brandon 4 • 7:31a, 2/15/24
Genocide Joe said:
Bearister posts Thomas Friedman op-eds and links from the Heritage Foundation and Great Britain News, but bristles at being called a closet Republican. I guess some conspiracy theories are OK when they're Democrat approved conspiracies.



Says Genocide "Only the smartest guy in the room subscribes to Matt Taibbi's Substack" Joe, the guy who makes fun of everyone's supporting sources yet finds himself in the position of having been reduced to citing the New York Post, Jesse Watters and Tucker Carlson to support his own positions.*
https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/113357/replies/2304181

*Hey Yogi, Matt Taibbi and his Anti Lib Populist movement has you half way to being a full blown MAGA.





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Zippergate
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8:15a, 2/15/24
Empires come and go; the reasons are always the same. The complacency I see here is exactly why we are headed for financial calamity.
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dajo9
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In reply to Zippergate • 8:19a, 2/15/24
Zippergate said:
Empires come and go; the reasons are always the same. The complacency I see here is exactly why we are headed for financial calamity.
The issues we have in America are primarily due to hyper-capitalism and the rise of the oligarchy, which began with our return to conservative economic policy under Reagan and continued through GW Bush and Trump. So, yes, I'm all about reining in those problems but I've never heard you say anything useful on the topic.
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Zippergate
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In reply to dajo9 • 8:42a, 2/15/24
You're not entirely wrong but putting the blame on Reagan is laughable. How many people went to jail after the GFC (Obama's watch btw)? How much are Pelosi, Feinstein and Pocahontas worth?
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dajo9
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In reply to Zippergate • 9:00a, 2/15/24
Zippergate said:
You're not entirely wrong but putting the blame on Reagan is laughable. How many people went to jail after the GFC (Obama's watch btw)? How much are Pelosi, Feinstein and Pocahontas worth?
Here you are selectively choosing topics for faux-outrage again because you are on the side of the actual policies that are the problem.
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Zippergate
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In reply to dajo9 • 9:12a, 2/15/24
faux-outrage? Should pair well with your faux arguments.
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AunBear89
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In reply to Zippergate • 9:48a, 2/15/24
The next cogent argument you have will be your first. I won't hold my breath.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
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blungld
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In reply to Cal88 • 10:11a, 2/15/24
The US sucks! Putin's oligarchy is awesome!
The Bear will not quilt, the Bear will not dye!
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bear2034
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In reply to dajo9 • 10:21a, 2/15/24
dajo9 said:
Zippergate said:
Empires come and go; the reasons are always the same. The complacency I see here is exactly why we are headed for financial calamity.
The issues we have in America are primarily due to hyper-capitalism and the rise of the oligarchy, which began with our return to conservative economic policy under Reagan and continued through GW Bush and Trump. So, yes, I'm all about reining in those problems but I've never heard you say anything useful on the topic.

The Great Financial Crisis and bank bailouts were under Obama's watch. He saved the rich and the middle class is still paying for it. Obama singlehandedly paved the way for someone like Trump to come along.
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sycasey
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In reply to bear2034 • 10:55a, 2/15/24
bear2034 said:
The Great Financial Crisis and bank bailouts were under Obama's watch.
What year did the global financial crisis start and who was President at the time?
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to blungld • 12:06p, 2/15/24
blungld said:
The US sucks! Putin's oligarchy is awesome!
I know you are being facetious, but we all know it's true.

Russia showed Tucker a nice grocery store and a nice subway station so we should definitely become a totalitarian fascist state with no personal freedoms.

You might think you enjoy the benefits of life in America, but what you really should be focused on is a few cherry-picked examples from the most beautiful parts of the most beautiful city in Russia. That's clearly most representative of the difference between Russia and the US, not all of the other stuff like rampant corruption (Russia is the most corrupt country in Europe), low standard of living, declining birth rate (which was already low), Rwanda-esque 64 year life expectancy for men, and on and on.

People in Russia would love to immigrate to our country. People all over the world are literally dying to do so. Russia doesn't have this problem because people don't want to live there. Young men and women with options left the country in droves over the last decade (which accelerated starting in 2022). 1/3 of the country is now over 55 years old because young people can see the writing on the wall.

I suggest you ignore everything I've written and wait for a cherry-picked response which tries to artfully pick and choose some questionable facts to rebut a small number of the factual claims I've made. You will learn that if you squint a certain way, you can pretend that Russia's demographics aren't as bad as some other place. And you may be told that the benefits of so many prominent Russians falling out of windows means that there is lots of fresh air indoors and that Moscow has a lot of new windows. You just have to expand your mind to only listen to what Russian handlers feed to their shills in order to spread misinformation on this obscure college sports fan website. Then you will see how truly great Russia has become under Putin the great.
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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In reply to Zippergate • 5:54p, 2/15/24
Zippergate said:
You're not entirely wrong but putting the blame on Reagan is laughable. How many people went to jail after the GFC (Obama's watch btw)? How much are Pelosi, Feinstein and Pocahontas worth?
Pocahontas has been dead for over 400 years, so I'm guessing she isn't worth much. Feinstein is dead too and couldn't take it with her.
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Lets Go Brandon 4
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In reply to bearister • 6:23p, 2/15/24
bearister said:
Genocide Joe said:
Bearister posts Thomas Friedman op-eds and links from the Heritage Foundation and Great Britain News, but bristles at being called a closet Republican. I guess some conspiracy theories are OK when they're Democrat approved conspiracies.

Says Genocide "Only the smartest guy in the room subscribes to Matt Taibbi's Substack" Joe, the guy who makes fun of everyone's supporting sources yet finds himself in the position of having been reduced to citing the New York Post, Jesse Watters and Tucker Carlson to support his own positions.*
https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/113357/replies/2304181
I love how triggered you are when I give you true information that you can't handle. Fortunately for me, unlike you who posts ****ty right-wing opinion columnists and right-wing conspiracy sites, I post guys like Taibbi who bring the receipts.

Jesse Watters' credibility isn't the issue here as it's not his opinion that's being given. It's Michael Shellenberger's credibility on the topic that matters. But when that fraud Jake Sherman gets around to interviewing him on that topic (also known as a cold day in hell), I'll be sure to post that interview for you too.

https://media.tenor.com/uARaKFpSkaMAAAAC/anger-management-jack-nicholson.gif

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Lets Go Brandon 4
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In reply to Big C • 6:39p, 2/15/24
Big C said:
Quote:
Every generation of Russians since the 1990s is going to be better off than their parents. That is also true of China. Granted they've started near the bottom, but at this rate their lot is going to be better than those in the West later this century.

Unfortunately in the US and in Europe, the opposite is true. Despite substantial technological progress, generations born after the mid to late 20th century are worse off than their parents.

Perhaps instead of your jingoistic outburst telling people to move to Russia, we could instead identify the causes of the decline and try to reverse it?

Except for he wasn't really "telling people to move to Russia". Instead, he was making a sarcastic comment to respected poster Zippergate, who had cherrypicked his economic metrics to make Russia sound strong, while knowing damn well that life for his kids would be better here in the USA.

Really many of you should move to Russia! And what I mean by that is, I double-dog dare you to leave the USA ("Oh, the homeless! Oh, the borders! Oh, the transgenders!") and see how great things are in a **** hole country like Russia. Low unemployment though, I can guarantee that! Oh wait, it's low here, too...
I'm personally very happy that the Biden voters have resorted to the right-wing neocon version of "Love it Or Leave It" from the Iraq War days, as it means that when Republicans or the Supreme Court or the Attorney General does something that Biden voters don't like, I can just invite them to move to Russia and tell them that their criticism is meaningless if they don't want to move to a country that does something better than their country does.

So, no more complaints about reproductive rights or I'm inviting you to move to Russia, where they can abort up to 12 weeks for choice and at any time for medical reasons or up to 22 weeks in the case of rape. Don't like that the First Amendment means you have to tolerate speech you don't like? Off to Russia with you where your government decides what information you are entitled to. Got a problem with the amount of guns in this country? Off to Russia with you where even handgun ownership has severe restrictions and you can't even purchase a rifle until you've establish five responsible years of shotgun ownership.

I think the new standards are gonna be a great thing for this forum.
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blungld
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7:56a, 2/16/24
I am about as unjingoistic and nationalist as they come, but even I am shocked and take offense at the degree to which the "patriotic" GOP now openly and actively roots against American interests. Why? Because they seem to not have any sense of how truly dangerous their authoritarian leanings are to the life we have enjoyed in this country, that life that they allegedly celebrated and would die for from WWII to Reagan to 9/11...but now their beleaguered conman leader says to bash America/Americans and side with Russia (while at the same time claim to be making America great???) and they obey. They refuse to pause and think about the steep price they are willing to pay just to stay loyal to him. Just to keep identification with the tribe. Just to keep believing their media bubble. Just to be on the opposite side of those they have vilified and othered. And mostly just to never have to admit that they were wrong.

At any time the past 10 years they could have seen how destructive Trump is and adhered to personal conservative values and tossed him aside and found a suitable and upstanding replacement. But their ego and denial has no bounds and they will not take an ethical stand even in these existential moments. That is how small and petty their actual patriotism is. Those boys who died in mud all over the world defending freedom and the ideals of the Constitution are not worth the serotonin rush they get when they own a Lib or laugh at Trump's cruelty or are allowed to continue to foster their most base and selfish nature. F those actual patriots who died for them and instead bow to the enemy states with antithetical values who would do us harm and unravel the systems of justice and democracy here at home so that a spoiled orange-dyed fake Christian narcissist can mock and degrade their fellow Americans and he can never face consequence for clear criminal culpability and crimes against the nation and world.

10 years ago, I thought these people were just fooled. That they were seduced by a vague notion of disruption but they were good people who would sober once they saw the incompetence, dishonesty, and cruelty. Instead, we see just a few willing to step away who then get attacked by those who stay in the cult, while the rest either actively cheer for the cult or silently continue to support it in the same manner that enabled the rise to begin with. Will they ever remember who they were before Trump and what they said they stood for then? I wish they were reachable, but I don't think they want to be reached. And so, I've given up hope for them. And my guess is the replies to this post will tell us all why.
The Bear will not quilt, the Bear will not dye!
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sycasey
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9:56a, 2/16/24
A reckoning is coming. At some point in the next 5-10 years Americans are going to have to clearly decide if they stand with democracy or with the authoritarians. You can already see how the extremes on the right and left wings are sliding towards the latter. Hopefully this creates space for a larger consolidated middle that beats back the fringe.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to blungld • 10:02a, 2/16/24
I sincerely believe this is a mischaracterization. Instead, I believe it is "America First" being taken way way too far and that we are maybe too far removed from WW1 and especially WW2 to remember the lessons about Isolationism.

The jingle-istic language about how many school security guards could be funded with the latest batch of Ukraine funding makes for 'nice' talking points, but it is really simplistic and short sighted (IMO), if not outright stupid.

Perhaps a middle ground could be if we quit giving foreign aid to Ukraine and instead moved to a lend lease program. That could be a bridge toward a world where it isn't costing us anything and we are smartly continuing our efforts to stop an evil enemy.
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tequila4kapp
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10:04a, 2/16/24
I came in here to post that Germany and France signed independent 10 year military support agreements with Ukraine. Apparently Great Britain did this recently too.

This is potentially scary. We cannot allow NATO treaty obligations for us to put boots on the ground to be back door invoked by member states entering into separate agreements.
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blungld
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 11:08a, 2/16/24
You are greatly mistaken if you think that military and financial support is NOT an American interest and that it SAVES us both money and lives in the long run, or if you believe that Trump's soft stance on Russian interests or anti-NATO rhetoric is next level diplomacy or seeing a bigger picture of American interest. He aligns ideologically with authoritarians because he sees it as good for his brand and the presidency he wants and because it cuts against the grain. It isn't brilliant. It is subservient. It is currying favor from his Russian ally who helped him before and will help again. What began as a financial interest (Trump Moscow) has transgressed to a political interest (alignment with the American right wing and Putin propaganda and the moneyed interests from Russia to Saudi Arabia) He is just trying to reframe American interests in an "I know better" narrative that to the uninformed and tribal members becomes true and believable and a way to, once again, take opposing positions to Democrats and Independents no matter how irrational or ignorant.

I am sorry that you don't see it but it is either tanks, training, weapons, and money to Ukraine now, or American soldiers later. Putin was going to invade Ukraine NO MATTER WHAT. And he will not stop there unless he has to. It is comparatively small cost for what it saves us long term...oh, and it is completely the right thing to do as well. Which is nice.
The Bear will not quilt, the Bear will not dye!
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sycasey
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 12:14p, 2/16/24
tequila4kapp said:
Perhaps a middle ground could be if we quit giving foreign aid to Ukraine and instead moved to a lend lease program. That could be a bridge toward a world where it isn't costing us anything and we are smartly continuing our efforts to stop an evil enemy.
I would believe this could work if I believed the core of the Republican opposition was really about cost. I don't think it is.

And to be clear, it's not a majority of Republicans who oppose the aid. If the foreign aid bill came to the floor in the House it would easily pass. The MAGA fringe of the GOP oppose it and with only a slim majority they can influence the Speaker to prevent a vote.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to blungld • 12:26p, 2/16/24
You have completely misread my position.

I am 100% in favor of supporting Ukraine. I believe Putin when he says he wants to recreate the old Soviet Union. That means we stop him now or he eventually does something to a NATO member state that invokes mandatory treaty obligations. My calculus is simple: money / weapons today so Ukraine can defend itself is a million times better than US boots on the ground tomorrow.
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