I'm just posting to help get us past the previous thread page which has so much social media embedded that it takes 3-5 minutes to load, if it loads at all.

Yay! It worked!

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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I'm just posting to help get us past the previous thread page which has so much social media embedded that it takes 3-5 minutes to load, if it loads at all.

Yay! It worked!

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This board needs a limit on how many Twitter links you can put in one post.

Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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I'm just posting to help get us past the previous thread page which has so much social media embedded that it takes 3-5 minutes to load, if it loads at all.

Yay! It worked!

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This board needs a limit on how many Twitter links you can put in one post.

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I'm going to assume I'm mostly responsible here!

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I'd say both you and Cal88 are frequently guilty of this. Where it really tends to "crash" the page on mobile is when someone makes one of these posts and then it gets quoted over and over. The mobile browser just can't load all of that.

calbear93 said:

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Then I would wonder how some on the extreme far left would feel about Ukraine.

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They are also already against supporting Ukraine, for kind of vague "America bad" reasons.

sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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Then I would wonder how some on the extreme far left would feel about Ukraine.

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They are also already against supporting Ukraine, for kind of vague "America bad" reasons.

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You're not "supporting" Ukraine by pushing that country into a war they cannot win and that is devastating their population.

Quote:

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Nothing more. Just wasted energy like most things on BI. No one has ever changed a single position in the history of BI Off Topic. Bunch of stubborn posters we are.

While it is baffling to me that the far right now embraces Russia and allies of Russia, I also understand that Trump has an affinity for dictators in Russia and North Korea. When there is a commitment to a man and not to the country, the only thing that will change the direction of this discussion is if Putin somehow offends Trump, and Trump decides it's best to support our European allies. Then I would wonder how some on the extreme far left would feel about Ukraine.

Until then, it's dogma dressed as reason by everyone.

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So basically anyone who doesn't buy the official version as relayed by the government and its MSM is either on the "extreme far left" or the "far right".

Ukraine has already had well over a million soldiers killed or maimed in this war, most of the people who wanted to fight it believing they were going to defeat Russia are already dead or wounded. Most of the people being conscripted into this dead end war are being forcibly used as cannon fodder.

Dear Americans.

This is a van load of Ukrainian kids that didn't want to die fighting in a War your Government started in 2014.

So, they paid theirs, and their parents' life savings trying to escape Zelensky and Bidens meatgrinder

Stop sending money to fund this insanity. pic.twitter.com/f1R9MFnpKT

— Chay Bowes (@BowesChay) March 8, 2024

🇺🇦🚨‼️ The woman’s husband died in the war, so she and the his brother came to visit his grave.

The both got ambushed by Ukranian military recruiters and the brother gets “volunteered”

Shameless … pic.twitter.com/ifKM70TNxe

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) March 11, 2024

calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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I'm just posting to help get us past the previous thread page which has so much social media embedded that it takes 3-5 minutes to load, if it loads at all.

Yay! It worked!

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This board needs a limit on how many Twitter links you can put in one post.

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At this point I'm not sure how much there is to say that hasn't been said.

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the only thing that will change the direction of this discussion is if Putin somehow offends Trump, and Trump decides it's best to support our European allies.

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For a number of reasons, this would be a truly shocking development. Like a trust fund baby turning against their trust fund parents.

calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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I'm just posting to help get us past the previous thread page which has so much social media embedded that it takes 3-5 minutes to load, if it loads at all.

Yay! It worked!

---

This board needs a limit on how many Twitter links you can put in one post.

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At this point I'm not sure how much there is to say that hasn't been said.

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Nothing more. Just wasted energy like most things on BI. No one has ever changed a single position in the history of BI Off Topic. Bunch of stubborn posters we are.

While it is baffling to me that the far right now embraces Russia and allies of Russia, I also understand that Trump has an affinity for dictators in Russia and North Korea. When there is a commitment to a man and not to the country, the only thing that will change the direction of this discussion is if Putin somehow offends Trump, and Trump decides it's best to support our European allies. Then I would wonder how some on the extreme far left would feel about Ukraine.

Until then, it's dogma dressed as reason by everyone.

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That is almost certainly the case. I think there are a few people who have been interested in some aspects of what I have been sharing, especially in light of the immense amount of Russian disinformation.

That brings me to your point about the extreme far left - they are every bit the victims of Russian disinformation as those on the right. Putin's army of cyber trolls finds kinship wherever it can and one of the convenient things about the firehose of falsehoods, which is rife with inconsistencies, is that you can target people with whatever they want to hear without having to resort to any coherent narrative.

But at this point it's pretty clear that everyone in this thread is aware of Russian information warfare and that my continuing to bring attention to it isn't that compelling or even interesting.

My initial engagement in this thread, like many others before I put 88 on ignore, was to provide fact checking for all of the obvious shilling going on but it became clear to me that I wasn't making a dent in the misinformation and that it was asymmetric warfare. I would spend 5 minutes debunking obviously false information that took 5 seconds to source from some handler on a discord server or through a Russian affiliated troll on twitter. Now that everyone either understands that the shills are just passing through propaganda, they can choose to either ignore it completely (which I recommend) or deciding for themselves whether to buy the BS or do the 5 min of research to debunk it.

The amount of misinformation generated by Russia is simply staggering and it has had an obvious impact on their perception in the US. It's easily the best ROI in terms of Russia's spend, in the same way that handing Ukraine our old obsolete military gear generates the best ROI of any US military spend.

With that said, I will take the next couple of weeks away from posting facts in this thread (to spare people the twitter slowdown) and we'll see how it goes.

calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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Then I would wonder how some on the extreme far left would feel about Ukraine.

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They are also already against supporting Ukraine, for kind of vague "America bad" reasons.

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You're not "supporting" Ukraine by pushing that country into a war they cannot win and that is devastating their population.

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"Pushing that country into war"? Here I thought they were pushed into war by invasion of their country by Russia. I was not aware that, when one sees a victim of aggression, the only acceptable response is to walk away and hope that the victim is fully oppressed as quickly as possible. For example, if you were to see a woman getting beaten by her husband, your preferred response would be to let him finish as quickly as possible since, if you were to step in, he may just continue back home. As such, any further violence by the abusive husband would be her fault for inciting him and anyone who came to her defense, and not the abusive husband. Got it.

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The battered woman in this story is the Donbas, The post-Maidan government in Kiev sent its tanks and Su25 fighter-bombers to crush the local rebellion that rose against the 2014 coup and the suppression of their minority rights.

The Minsk Agreements were the marriage counseling session that settled that domestic dispute, however Ukraine and its backers never intended to abide by it, they are on record stating as much.

Zelensky and co were preparing for escalation in the Donbas well before the Russians intervened, by early 2022, Ukraine had assembled a force of 60,000 troops that was ready to overrun the Donbas.

Vladimir Zelensky's first press conference on October 11, 2019

What do you think? pic.twitter.com/RxLKGWtLpe

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) June 20, 2022

Unit2Sucks said:

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With that said, I will take the next couple of weeks away from posting facts in this thread (to spare people the twitter slowdown) and we'll see how it goes.

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The reason for this is that your positions are increasingly untenable with the truth starting to emerge, I can therefore understand why you would want to take a break at this point . All your main assertions have turned out to be false, here's a sample:

-Ukraine is winning the war, or has a real chance to do so
-The scale of Ukrainian losses in a war where it is outgunned 5-10 to 1
-The will of Ukrainians to fight in light of a mountain of videos of forced conscriptions
-The alleged military incompetence of the Russians
-The pointless and futile attempt to weaken Russia, while completely ignoring the enormous cost to Ukraine in this geopolitical ploy
-The nature of the civil war that ignited in 2014 in eastern and southern Ukraine
-The level of corruption in the Ukrainian government

and so on.

Cal88 said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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Then I would wonder how some on the extreme far left would feel about Ukraine.

---

They are also already against supporting Ukraine, for kind of vague "America bad" reasons.

---

You're not "supporting" Ukraine by pushing that country into a war they cannot win and that is devastating their population.

---

"Pushing that country into war"? Here I thought they were pushed into war by invasion of their country by Russia. I was not aware that, when one sees a victim of aggression, the only acceptable response is to walk away and hope that the victim is fully oppressed as quickly as possible. For example, if you were to see a woman getting beaten by her husband, your preferred response would be to let him finish as quickly as possible since, if you were to step in, he may just continue back home. As such, any further violence by the abusive husband would be her fault for inciting him and anyone who came to her defense, and not the abusive husband. Got it.

---

The battered woman in this story is the Donbas, The post-Maidan government in Kiev sent its tanks and Su25 fighter-bombers to crush the local rebellion that rose against the 2014 coup and the suppression of their minority rights.

The Minsk Agreements were the marriage counseling session that settled that domestic dispute, however Ukraine and its backers never intended to abide by it, they are on record stating as much.

Zelensky and co were preparing for escalation in the Donbas well before the Russians intervened, by early 2022, Ukraine had assembled a force of 60,000 troops that was ready to overrun the Donbas.

Vladimir Zelensky's first press conference on October 11, 2019

What do you think? pic.twitter.com/RxLKGWtLpe

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) June 20, 2022

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In other words, you think she deserved the beating, and anyone coming to her defense is just making it worse.

calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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Then I would wonder how some on the extreme far left would feel about Ukraine.

---

They are also already against supporting Ukraine, for kind of vague "America bad" reasons.

---

You're not "supporting" Ukraine by pushing that country into a war they cannot win and that is devastating their population.

---

"Pushing that country into war"? Here I thought they were pushed into war by invasion of their country by Russia. I was not aware that, when one sees a victim of aggression, the only acceptable response is to walk away and hope that the victim is fully oppressed as quickly as possible. For example, if you were to see a woman getting beaten by her husband, your preferred response would be to let him finish as quickly as possible since, if you were to step in, he may just continue back home. As such, any further violence by the abusive husband would be her fault for inciting him and anyone who came to her defense, and not the abusive husband. Got it.

---

The battered woman in this story is the Donbas, The post-Maidan government in Kiev sent its tanks and Su25 fighter-bombers to crush the local rebellion that rose against the 2014 coup and the suppression of their minority rights.

The Minsk Agreements were the marriage counseling session that settled that domestic dispute, however Ukraine and its backers never intended to abide by it, they are on record stating as much.

Zelensky and co were preparing for escalation in the Donbas well before the Russians intervened, by early 2022, Ukraine had assembled a force of 60,000 troops that was ready to overrun the Donbas.

Vladimir Zelensky's first press conference on October 11, 2019

What do you think? pic.twitter.com/RxLKGWtLpe

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) June 20, 2022

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In other words, you think she deserved the beating, and anyone coming to her defense is just making it worse.

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The damsel in distress narrative does not account for all the nuances in that situation, but to stick with the metaphor, the parties and in-laws agreed to resolve their problems with the Minsk marriage counseling sessions.

That was consequently broken once the "damsel", fired up by her NATO party, armed itself to the gills and went in swinging with her marble rolling pin.

Bottom line this whole conflict could have been easily avoided, either through the Minsk Agreements, or the Istanbul peace agreement one month into the war. There is plenty of evidence pointing to NATO having scuttled both deals, and also no question that all parties would have been better off with these deals.

calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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Then I would wonder how some on the extreme far left would feel about Ukraine.

---

They are also already against supporting Ukraine, for kind of vague "America bad" reasons.

---

You're not "supporting" Ukraine by pushing that country into a war they cannot win and that is devastating their population.

---

"Pushing that country into war"? Here I thought they were pushed into war by invasion of their country by Russia. I was not aware that, when one sees a victim of aggression, the only acceptable response is to walk away and hope that the victim is fully oppressed as quickly as possible. For example, if you were to see a woman getting beaten by her husband, your preferred response would be to let him finish as quickly as possible since, if you were to step in, he may just continue back home. As such, any further violence by the abusive husband would be her fault for inciting him and anyone who came to her defense, and not the abusive husband. Got it.

---

The battered woman in this story is the Donbas, The post-Maidan government in Kiev sent its tanks and Su25 fighter-bombers to crush the local rebellion that rose against the 2014 coup and the suppression of their minority rights.

The Minsk Agreements were the marriage counseling session that settled that domestic dispute, however Ukraine and its backers never intended to abide by it, they are on record stating as much.

Zelensky and co were preparing for escalation in the Donbas well before the Russians intervened, by early 2022, Ukraine had assembled a force of 60,000 troops that was ready to overrun the Donbas.

Vladimir Zelensky's first press conference on October 11, 2019

What do you think? pic.twitter.com/RxLKGWtLpe

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) June 20, 2022

---

In other words, you think she deserved the beating, and anyone coming to her defense is just making it worse.

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That's basically what this all boils down to, though these guys won't say it: they think Putin should be allowed to have as much of Ukraine as he likes. Might makes right.

For some reason this philosophy does not apply to Israel.

Cal88 said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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Then I would wonder how some on the extreme far left would feel about Ukraine.

---

They are also already against supporting Ukraine, for kind of vague "America bad" reasons.

---

You're not "supporting" Ukraine by pushing that country into a war they cannot win and that is devastating their population.

---

"Pushing that country into war"? Here I thought they were pushed into war by invasion of their country by Russia. I was not aware that, when one sees a victim of aggression, the only acceptable response is to walk away and hope that the victim is fully oppressed as quickly as possible. For example, if you were to see a woman getting beaten by her husband, your preferred response would be to let him finish as quickly as possible since, if you were to step in, he may just continue back home. As such, any further violence by the abusive husband would be her fault for inciting him and anyone who came to her defense, and not the abusive husband. Got it.

---

The battered woman in this story is the Donbas, The post-Maidan government in Kiev sent its tanks and Su25 fighter-bombers to crush the local rebellion that rose against the 2014 coup and the suppression of their minority rights.

The Minsk Agreements were the marriage counseling session that settled that domestic dispute, however Ukraine and its backers never intended to abide by it, they are on record stating as much.

Zelensky and co were preparing for escalation in the Donbas well before the Russians intervened, by early 2022, Ukraine had assembled a force of 60,000 troops that was ready to overrun the Donbas.

Vladimir Zelensky's first press conference on October 11, 2019

What do you think? pic.twitter.com/RxLKGWtLpe

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) June 20, 2022

---

In other words, you think she deserved the beating, and anyone coming to her defense is just making it worse.

---

The damsel in distress narrative does not account for all the nuances in that situation, but to stick with the metaphor, the parties and in-laws agreed to resolve their problems with the Minsk marriage counseling sessions.

That was consequently broken once the "damsel", fired up by her NATO party, armed itself to the gills and went in swinging with her marble rolling pin.

Bottom line this whole conflict could have been easily avoided, either through the Minsk Agreements, or the Istanbul peace agreement one month into the war. There is plenty of evidence pointing to NATO having scuttled both deals, and also no question that all parties would have been better off with these deals.

---

The husband didn't agree with what she chose to do with her own body, and therefore violated her and abused her. In other words, she should have just listened to him because he is stronger, and he wouldn't had to have resorted to domestic violence, which he really didn't want to do but was forced to do because she didn't listen to him. Is that the right analogy you are using?

sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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Then I would wonder how some on the extreme far left would feel about Ukraine.

---

They are also already against supporting Ukraine, for kind of vague "America bad" reasons.

---

You're not "supporting" Ukraine by pushing that country into a war they cannot win and that is devastating their population.

---

"Pushing that country into war"? Here I thought they were pushed into war by invasion of their country by Russia. I was not aware that, when one sees a victim of aggression, the only acceptable response is to walk away and hope that the victim is fully oppressed as quickly as possible. For example, if you were to see a woman getting beaten by her husband, your preferred response would be to let him finish as quickly as possible since, if you were to step in, he may just continue back home. As such, any further violence by the abusive husband would be her fault for inciting him and anyone who came to her defense, and not the abusive husband. Got it.

---

The battered woman in this story is the Donbas, The post-Maidan government in Kiev sent its tanks and Su25 fighter-bombers to crush the local rebellion that rose against the 2014 coup and the suppression of their minority rights.

The Minsk Agreements were the marriage counseling session that settled that domestic dispute, however Ukraine and its backers never intended to abide by it, they are on record stating as much.

Zelensky and co were preparing for escalation in the Donbas well before the Russians intervened, by early 2022, Ukraine had assembled a force of 60,000 troops that was ready to overrun the Donbas.

Vladimir Zelensky's first press conference on October 11, 2019

What do you think? pic.twitter.com/RxLKGWtLpe

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) June 20, 2022

---

In other words, you think she deserved the beating, and anyone coming to her defense is just making it worse.

---

That's basically what this all boils down to, though these guys won't say it: they think Putin should be allowed to have as much of Ukraine as he likes. Might makes right.

For some reason this philosophy does not apply to Israel.

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I think that would be a projection.

sycasey In other words, you think she deserved the beating, and anyone coming to her defense is just making it worse. said:

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That's basically what this all boils down to, though these guys won't say it: they think Putin should be allowed to have as much of Ukraine as he likes. Might makes right.

For some reason this philosophy does not apply to Israel.

---

What it all boils down to is that you can't accept that there would be no war in the first place other than for the United States couping the government and doing everything they possibly could to push Russia into the war in the first place when if they'd simply backed off and left Ukraine completely alone, there would have been no war at all.

The difference in Israel is that the United States is arming the invaders, but they are agitators in both conflicts.

Which now brings us to our latest update of "Ukraine war hawks were wrong" as they have been throughout this entire war.

This is an exceedingly rare and fascinating article in French magazine Marianne, who got access to "several confidential defense reports" from the French army on the situation in Ukraine: https://t.co/awu9xCEISP

The situation looks exceedingly bleak for Ukraine, which might in…

— Arnaud Bertrand (@RnaudBertrand) March 12, 2024

Built into the twisted pro-Putin apologist reasoning is that of course Russia should continue the war and that they will eventually win and that their casualties and the casualties they cause in Ukraine are all inevitable. So somehow it is a given that Russia's fatalities and their continued attack and warring are not on the table for criticism and rebuke and calls to ceasefire, it is only the Ukrainian death as a result of defense of their country that needs to be considered as sad and unfortunate and a reason to surrender to peace terms.

So reversed is their rationale that somehow Ukraine's deaths defending their homes is manslaughter and pointless, but Russia sending their troops in and causing these deaths and deaths to their own troops is just a given. It is completely beyond me that we should all be horrified by Ukrainian sacrifice in defense of their country and emergent democracy, but ignore and tacitly endorse Russian expansion of authoritarian empire, and then treat these two things as somehow evenly weighted or that compromise needs to be met. It would be like me walking into your home shooting your son and taking you TV and car, and then the useful idiot neighbor saying, "Hey, let's stop the violence and reach a compromise." and they propose that I keep the Tv but give up the car and tell you how it will be your fault if I shoot your son too. It's insane.

Can the happy little Putinists even conjure some sense of decency and equivilance and at the very least harangue Russia for continuing their attack rather than retreating or a cease fire and admit that they started it? Is there ANY responsibility Russia has in creating a peace or is it all on Ukraine/ Do they just need to eat the death and destruction and pretend it was their fault for existing and believing in self-determination and choosing their allies?

blungld said:

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Built into the twisted pro-Putin apologist reasoning is that of course Russia should continue the war and that they will eventually win and that their casualties and the casualties they cause in Ukraine are all inevitable. So somehow it is a given that Russia's fatalities and their continued attack and warring are not on the table for criticism and rebuke and calls to ceasefire, it is only the Ukrainian death as a result of defense of their country that needs to be considered as sad and unfortunate and a reason to surrender to peace terms.

So reversed is their rationale that somehow Ukraine's deaths defending their homes is manslaughter and pointless, but Russia sending their troops in and causing these deaths and deaths to their own troops is just a given. It is completely beyond me that we should all be horrified by Ukrainian sacrifice in defense of their country and emergent democracy, but ignore and tacitly endorse Russian expansion of authoritarian empire, and then treat these two things as somehow evenly weighted or that compromise needs to be met. It would be like me walking into your home shooting your son and taking you TV and car, and then the useful idiot neighbor saying, "Hey, let's stop the violence and reach a compromise." and they propose that I keep the Tv but give up the car and tell you how it will be your fault if I shoot your son too. It's insane.

Can the happy little Putinists even conjure some sense of decency and equivilance and at the very least harangue Russia for continuing their attack rather than retreating or a cease fire and admit that they started it? Is there ANY responsibility Russia has in creating a peace or is it all on Ukraine/ Do they just need to eat the death and destruction and pretend it was their fault for existing and believing in self-determination and choosing their allies?

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This is pretty much it. In these people's world, Russian aggression and violence is just taken as a given. Everyone else has to tiptoe around it.

Why not just call on the Russians to stop bullying their neighbors?

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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movielover said:

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Scott Ritter claims that Avdiivka is the last fortified defensive position for Ukraine.

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Ukraine shares their most important military secrets with a convicted sex offender who works for Russia Times and has compared Ukraine to a "rabid dog that needed to be shot"?

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This was reported by several neutral outlets, as well as causation for why Macron is talking about bringing NATO troops to Ukraine.

blungld said:

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Built into the twisted pro-Putin apologist reasoning is that of course Russia should continue the war and that they will eventually win and that their casualties and the casualties they cause in Ukraine are all inevitable. So somehow it is a given that Russia's fatalities and their continued attack and warring are not on the table for criticism and rebuke and calls to ceasefire, it is only the Ukrainian death as a result of defense of their country that needs to be considered as sad and unfortunate and a reason to surrender to peace terms.

So reversed is their rationale that somehow Ukraine's deaths defending their homes is manslaughter and pointless, but Russia sending their troops in and causing these deaths and deaths to their own troops is just a given. It is completely beyond me that we should all be horrified by Ukrainian sacrifice in defense of their country and emergent democracy, but ignore and tacitly endorse Russian expansion of authoritarian empire, and then treat these two things as somehow evenly weighted or that compromise needs to be met. It would be like me walking into your home shooting your son and taking you TV and car, and then the useful idiot neighbor saying, "Hey, let's stop the violence and reach a compromise." and they propose that I keep the Tv but give up the car and tell you how it will be your fault if I shoot your son too. It's insane.

Can the happy little Putinists even conjure some sense of decency and equivilance and at the very least harangue Russia for continuing their attack rather than retreating or a cease fire and admit that they started it? Is there ANY responsibility Russia has in creating a peace or is it all on Ukraine/ Do they just need to eat the death and destruction and pretend it was their fault for existing and believing in self-determination and choosing their allies?

---

This is the dumbest thing I have read recently. I haven't heard anyone here arguing that Russia should continue the war. Folks here have argued that Russia isn't going to retreat unless the terms of a peace deal are somewhat favorable to them because they are winning the war and Ukraine is losing. That doesn't make Russia right and Ukraine wrong. Russia is the bad actor here.

Did all Vietnam protestors cheer for Communism?
Stop equivalating calls for peace with cheering for Russia.

oski003 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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movielover said:

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Scott Ritter claims that Avdiivka is the last fortified defensive position for Ukraine.

---

Ukraine shares their most important military secrets with a convicted sex offender who works for Russia Times and has compared Ukraine to a "rabid dog that needed to be shot"?

---

This was reported by several neutral outlets, as well as causation for why Macron is talking about bringing NATO troops to Ukraine.

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Then movielover should quote them rather than some Russia spoon fed sex offender that hasn't worked in military intelligence in decades.

oski003 said:

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blungld said:

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Built into the twisted pro-Putin apologist reasoning is that of course Russia should continue the war and that they will eventually win and that their casualties and the casualties they cause in Ukraine are all inevitable. So somehow it is a given that Russia's fatalities and their continued attack and warring are not on the table for criticism and rebuke and calls to ceasefire, it is only the Ukrainian death as a result of defense of their country that needs to be considered as sad and unfortunate and a reason to surrender to peace terms.

So reversed is their rationale that somehow Ukraine's deaths defending their homes is manslaughter and pointless, but Russia sending their troops in and causing these deaths and deaths to their own troops is just a given. It is completely beyond me that we should all be horrified by Ukrainian sacrifice in defense of their country and emergent democracy, but ignore and tacitly endorse Russian expansion of authoritarian empire, and then treat these two things as somehow evenly weighted or that compromise needs to be met. It would be like me walking into your home shooting your son and taking you TV and car, and then the useful idiot neighbor saying, "Hey, let's stop the violence and reach a compromise." and they propose that I keep the Tv but give up the car and tell you how it will be your fault if I shoot your son too. It's insane.

Can the happy little Putinists even conjure some sense of decency and equivilance and at the very least harangue Russia for continuing their attack rather than retreating or a cease fire and admit that they started it? Is there ANY responsibility Russia has in creating a peace or is it all on Ukraine/ Do they just need to eat the death and destruction and pretend it was their fault for existing and believing in self-determination and choosing their allies?

---

This is the dumbest thing I have read recently. I haven't heard anyone here arguing that Russia should continue the war. Folks here have argued that Russia isn't going to retreat unless the terms of a peace deal are somewhat favorable to them because they are winning the war and Ukraine is losing. That doesn't make Russia right and Ukraine wrong. Russia is the bad actor here.

Did all Vietnam protestors cheer for Communism?
Stop equivalating calls for peace with cheering for Russia.

---

Except the same people have been arguing from the very beginning that Russia was inevitably going to win (including claims that Kiev would collapse within a few weeks) therefore we should not help Ukraine at any point. These same people also strongly argued right before the war started that Russia was NOT going to invade Ukraine and that the US government's claims that they would were just Western propaganda. One of them even kept making that claim on this board while Putin's tanks were already rolling in.

So I don't think these people are on the level. They are just on Russia's side (or reflexively anti-America, take your pick).

Oh yeah, the calls on this board for Ukraine to "surrender" have always been proceeded by outrage at the despicable acts of Russian aggression…not!

I am glad you found it so stupid. Because I find your response dishonest and typically unbalanced. How about you show it's done and say in no uncertain terms that Russia is responsible for this war and you stand 100% against their invasion and manufactured justification and that they have full responsibility of ceasefire and withdrawal?

blungld said:

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Oh yeah, the calls on this board for Ukraine to "surrender" have always been proceeded by outrage at the despicable acts of Russian aggression…not!

I am glad you found it so stupid. Because I find your response dishonest and typically unbalanced. How about you show it's done and say in no uncertain terms that Russia is responsible for this war and you stand 100% against their invasion and manufactured justification and that they have full responsibility of ceasefire and withdrawal?

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It is a war. Russia does not have full responsibility of ceasefire and withdrawal. Ukraine making peace does not equal surrendering.

The white flag of strength. Take it.

blungld said:

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Built into the twisted pro-Putin apologist reasoning is that of course Russia should continue the war and that they will eventually win and that their casualties and the casualties they cause in Ukraine are all inevitable. So somehow it is a given that Russia's fatalities and their continued attack and warring are not on the table for criticism and rebuke and calls to ceasefire, it is only the Ukrainian death as a result of defense of their country that needs to be considered as sad and unfortunate and a reason to surrender to peace terms.

So reversed is their rationale that somehow Ukraine's deaths defending their homes is manslaughter and pointless, but Russia sending their troops in and causing these deaths and deaths to their own troops is just a given. It is completely beyond me that we should all be horrified by Ukrainian sacrifice in defense of their country and emergent democracy, but ignore and tacitly endorse Russian expansion of authoritarian empire, and then treat these two things as somehow evenly weighted or that compromise needs to be met. It would be like me walking into your home shooting your son and taking you TV and car, and then the useful idiot neighbor saying, "Hey, let's stop the violence and reach a compromise." and they propose that I keep the Tv but give up the car and tell you how it will be your fault if I shoot your son too. It's insane.

Can the happy little Putinists even conjure some sense of decency and equivilance and at the very least harangue Russia for continuing their attack rather than retreating or a cease fire and admit that they started it? Is there ANY responsibility Russia has in creating a peace or is it all on Ukraine/ Do they just need to eat the death and destruction and pretend it was their fault for existing and believing in self-determination and choosing their allies?

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The proverbial ball has been in our court (the U.S.) for 2 years. Putin is ready to negotiate an end to the conflict, but as long as the U.S. & Ukraine keep fighting, he'll keep taking territory. This is why the Pope was urging Ukraine & the U.S. to negotiate a final settlement, and save the lives of thousands of soldiers on both sides.

The first opportunity to end the war was at the negotiations in Istanbul in Spring of 2022. UK PM Boris Johnson, at the urging of the U.S. Neocons, forced Zelenskyy to end the negotiations, deciding instead to attack & further weaken the Russian forces. Clearly, Zelenskyy, PM Johnson, and the U.S. passed on a far, far better deal than they stand to get now.

Again in November, 2022, Gen. Mark Milley, realizing the limitations of Ukraine's ability to recruit willing soldiers in a war of attrition, signaled to the Biden administration that it was a good time of the year to lock in their territorial gains:

Quote:

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Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has made the case in internal meetings that the Ukrainians have achieved about as much as they could reasonably expect on the battlefield before winter sets in and so they should try to cement their gains at the bargaining table, according to officials informed about the discussions. -- Peter Baker, NY Times, 11/10/2022

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And again, the Biden administration decided to continue the fighting, and declined to negotiate.

Instead of saving thousands of lives & $60 Billion for U.S. taxpayers, the U.S. and its European vassals are considering their own attacks on Russian forces while the U.S. fear-mongers about Russia invading Article 5 / NATO nations. Other than U.S./EU/NATO propaganda, there is ZERO evidence that Russia has any plan to go beyond the Dnipro / Kyiv in the North and Odessa in the South.

Putin will not take all of Ukraine. He still needs Western Ukraine as a buffer between Russian territory (formerly Eastern Ukraine) and NATO's Romania & Poland. And he will not attack an Article 5 NATO country.

The U.S. is obviously casting Putin as an evil threat to Europe so that Congress will pass the $60 Billion Ukrainian aid package. The primary beneficiaries of this money would be the "defense" contractors who are starting to see the end of their Ukrainian gravy train. No weapons will get to the Ukrainian troops in time to have any effect, and besides, Ukraine doesn't have the personnel to use them.

This is hopefully the last stage of Victoria Nuland's failed attempt to turn Ukraine into a U.S./NATO base on Russia's doorstep, and to remove Putin from power in Russia.

oski003 said:

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It is a war. Russia does not have full responsibility of ceasefire and withdrawal. Ukraine making peace does not equal surrendering.

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Figures. You couldn't do it. Guess what would happen if Russia left Ukraine?...a choice they could make at any moment...they could leave the independent country they entered and attacked...and what do you know?! There would not be another death and the war would be over and there would be a withdrawal and effectively a ceasefire. Gee, I thought Russia DOES NOT have full responsibility??? But look, by their own action and choice the war they started either continues or ends. Weird. That sounds like full responsibility to me.

It's interesting that your response to my previous post was that it was stupid because you don't THINK that people on this thread assign all responsibility to Ukraine and they are not Putin cheerleaders. And yet, even when asked to directly show that it is not true and show that you can directly denounce Russia's responsibility for the war and give a straight unequivocal condemnation of their attack on an independent country and the death and destruction that they have caused, you couldn't do it. You had to still both sides it.

So, it seems that what you found stupid continues to in fact be born out and true, and rather than saying something like "I agree with where you are coming from and find Russia's actions despicable and the pro-Putin propaganda floated on these threads disturbing." You dismissed my post as stupid, and just continued the its Ukraine's own fault they were invaded and it's equally their fault that Russians are killing them. I find your double standards, hypocrisy, lack of empathy, equivocation, regurgitation of conservative Putin apologist talking points, and inability to FIRST AND FOREMOST rebuke Russia and list the ways in which they need to end the war you put all emphasis and analysis to how the victim Ukraine needs to compromise and accept what has been done to them. Your POV is inhumane and frankly offensive.

It is exactly what I wrote above that you said was so stupid: I rob a house, take a TV and car, kill the daughter...and the neighbor (you) say that I need to make it right and only keep the TV and that if the victim isn't happy with getting his car back, it's their fault if I then kill his son too. Your moral compass has spun way off.

sycasey said:

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Except the same people have been arguing from the very beginning that Russia was inevitably going to win

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(narrator's voice) - Russia won

Hilarious how someone who has been so wrong about this war feels that he has the standing to talk about other people being wrong.

Meanwhile, a little reality for the Russia, Russia, Russia warhawks

It’s incredible how infrequently the subject of growing voter opposition is ever mentioned when discussing Ukraine aid. If you only read the DC press, you’d never know he’s actually doing what republican voters are demanding of him. https://t.co/PKZZC4WvGU

— a newsman (@a_newsman) March 13, 2024

How should Putin have handled Barack Obama and John Brennan putting 12 secret C-A buildings on her border in Ukraine.

Sent potato latkes?

movielover said:

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How should Putin have handled Barack Obama and John Brennan putting 12 secret C-A buildings on her border in Ukraine.

Sent potato latkes?

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Instead of snide non-substantive questions, how about you answer something. Let's be clear about where you stand: Do you support Russia's invasion of Ukraine?