The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

874,111 Views | 9916 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by bear2034
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

bearister said:

'Six Russian warplanes destroyed' in major Ukrainian drone strike

https://mol.im/a/13275237


Two responses. First, this is obviously untrue. Russia put tires on top of its planes which eliminated the threat of Ukrainian strikes.

Second, this is a strategic win which makes Russia stronger. Putin has been looking to mothball some of his bombers so Ukraine unknowingly did him a favor.

Putin remains a strategic genius.


UrtakeSucks.

It is great that we our getting some victories in our proxy war with Russia. Hopefully this speeds up the peace process, and Russia doesn't take Ukrainian land past the Donbas.
Zippergate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Two questions for you.
Do you think Russia will persevere in this war until their objectives are achieved?
Do you think it wise to have Ukraine join NATO at this point and trigger Article 5?
dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I'm not U2Sucks but 1) it will be a disappointment if the Republican Party hangs Ukraine out to dry for Russia's benefit. 2) I have never supported Ukraine being in NATO. There are some countries in NATO right now that I don't think should be.
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dajo9 said:

I'm not U2Sucks but 1) it will be a disappointment if the Republican Party hangs Ukraine out to dry for Russia's benefit. 2) I have never supported Ukraine being in NATO. There are some countries in NATO right now that I don't think should be.


What exactly is hanging Ukraine out to dry?
1) Promise aid and victory such that Ukraine won't accept a peace deal with Russia that concedes Crimea and Donbas neutrality.
2) Provide aid but Ukraine falls short of military goals as Ukraine fails to gain back land lost to Russia.
3) After more than two years of providing military assistance and giving 75 billion to Ukraine, provide much lesser amounts, thus leading to further Ukraine military failures to the larger, superior Russia?
4) Ukraine loses and Democrats blame Republicans?

Does that sound right. Is that really a Republican problem?
dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
This sums hanging Ukraine out to dry pretty well
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/26/politics/republicans-trump-ukraine-aid
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dajo9 said:

This sums hanging Ukraine out to dry pretty well
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/26/politics/republicans-trump-ukraine-aid


So you believe my item #3 is hanging Ukraine out to dry? Perhaps we should fund Ukraine but let Zelensky know he needs to use this funding as leverage to negotiate more favorable peace terms. We would need to make sure that messaging doesn't get to the Russians. Hopefully, he quelled dissent and not just killed the peace deal when he killed his lead peace negotiator. He shouldn't expect us to give him tens of billions of dollars every year.
dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
oski003 said:

dajo9 said:

This sums hanging Ukraine out to dry pretty well
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/26/politics/republicans-trump-ukraine-aid


So you believe my item #3 is hanging Ukraine out to dry? Perhaps we should fund Ukraine but let Zelensky know he needs to use this funding as leverage to negotiate more favorable peace terms. We would need to make sure that messaging doesn't get to the Russians. Hopefully, he quelled dissent and not just killed the peace deal when he killed his lead peace negotiator. He shouldn't expect us to give him tens of billions of dollars every year.
No, I don't believe your #3 is hanging Ukraine out to dry.
movielover
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
oski003 said:

dajo9 said:

This sums hanging Ukraine out to dry pretty well
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/26/politics/republicans-trump-ukraine-aid


So you believe my item #3 is hanging Ukraine out to dry? Perhaps we should fund Ukraine but let Zelensky know he needs to use this funding as leverage to negotiate more favorable peace terms. We would need to make sure that messaging doesn't get to the Russians. Hopefully, he quelled dissent and not just killed the peace deal when he killed his lead peace negotiator. He shouldn't expect us to give him tens of billions of dollars every year.

I don't think Zelensky ordered the killing, it's the SBU (Ukrainian KGB) and other crazed nationalists who are in charge who did it. Zelensky is not a killer, he's just an opportunist who has amassed hundreds of millions from being at the top of their bureaucracy, but he's not fully in control of the hardcore Ukr.militias. It's a symbiotic relationship, they use him as a PR head who can raise hundreds of billions in the West, and he uses them to get rich.

The Russians actually like Zelensky because he is very dumb when it comes to military decisions. Ukraine's military strategy has been based on keeping morale high at home and with its foreign financiers, and scoring PR wins. Zelensky kept doubling down on losing causes like Bakhmut and Avdiivka because he feared the PR fallouts, or he would extend those hopeless battles for weeks or months in order for example to delay Russian victories on important Russian dates like victory day in May.

Russia's goal is to destroy Ukraine's army while minimizing their own losses, so they have favored a more static warfare where they can exploit their huge advantage in firepower, mainly artillery initially, while working meticulously at suppressing Ukrainian air defenses, a campaign which took about a year and a half. They are now pressing their advantage through air superiority and glide bomb barrages.

Ukraine will reach a breaking point once one of these three items fails:
-They run out of weapons/ammo
-They run out of soldiers
-Their morale collapses.

They've done an excellent job of keeping their morale high despite the huge losses, partly because they have kept a lid on dissent. They've purged Ukraine of moderates like the negotiator who got killed, and they have also kept a large contingent of ideologically-driven militias in the main cities.

They're running low on ammo, but the equipment keeps coming. So the weak point might be the number of troops available.
movielover
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Does the US / NATO really want Ukraine to win, or is something bigger at play?

Here I read a poorly covered story that Greece has a massive weapons cache its negotiating to sell to The Czech Republic, for Ukraine. Is this possible? It sounds true, including old Soviet munitions and weapons.

If it's true, why did NATO and the USA's 44 4-star generals and admirals let 500,000 men get massacred while this mothball depot of ammunitions gathered dust?

Because the $200-odd Million dollars doesn't go to the American MIL, lobbyists, and UKR graft?

All the analysts, Military experts & Congressmen didn't know this cache existed? How many countries possibly have such a horde? Thirty, fifty?

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/30533#:~:text=The%20munitions%20will%20come%20from,and%20Contracts%2C%20Doureios%20news%20reported.


"the program could now supply the Ukrainian military with as many as 1.5 million rounds. Crucially, the arrangement allows the sellers to remain anonymous, removing the risk of potential punitive steps from Moscow."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/greece-plans-send-large-shipment-214000417.html

"Greece will supply roughly 2,000 Zuni unguided 127mm air-to-surface rockets, and just under 200 2.75-inch rockets, Kathimerini reported. Athens will also provide about 90,000 90mm anti-tank rounds, unspecified anti-aircraft weapons and 4 million bullets, according to the newspaper. The report suggested Ukraine would also receive 70 M114A1 towed howitzers, which will be key for Ukraine's artillery battle in muddy terrain."

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-military-aid-greece-czech-republic-nato-1880265

Rome burned while Nero played his fiddle.

Let me guess, Nick in Georgeopolis owns the stockpile?

Why the news blackout?

Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Greece's most valuable asset from Ukraine's perspective is its S-300 missile batteries. It's not a huge stock, but it will definitely make a difference, decreasing the current comfort level that the Russian air force is enjoying on the front. The Russians are for example using Su-25 ground support bombers on the front, straight up, which they haven't done in a long time. Greek S-300s will reset the air superiority situation a few months back for the Russians.

The thing is, those are extremely valuable weapons systems for Greece, who use them to protect their strategically vulnerable positions on their eastern Aegian islands, like Lesvos and Samos, which Turkey claims.
movielover
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Well, somebody is selling them. Ukraine needs pretty much everything, and it would make Russia think twice. I'm surprised Russia doesn't use a straw buyer to soak up some of those supplies.
Unit2Sucks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Reuters reporting Israel attacked a residential area with a missile strike today and then 40 min later, when aid workers and journalists had arrived on scene, they did it again.

Oh, sorry, that was Russia attacking civilians in Ukraine again.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-fires-five-missiles-ukraines-zaporizhzhia-three-people-killed-2024-04-05/#


Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

Reuters reporting Israel attacked a residential area with a missile strike today and then 40 min later, when aid workers and journalists had arrived on scene, they did it again.

Oh, sorry, that was Russia attacking civilians in Ukraine again.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-fires-five-missiles-ukraines-zaporizhzhia-three-people-killed-2024-04-05/#



Here's the article, I just love how they've managed to casually downplay the most important element of this attack:
Quote:

ZAPORIZHZHIA, Ukraine, April 5 (Reuters) - Russia fired five missiles on Ukraine's southern city of Zaporizhzhia on Friday, killing at least four people, injuring 20 and damaging residential buildings AND INDUSTRIAL FACILITIES, the regional governor said.

Two journalists covering the aftermath of the strikes were among those wounded in the city, which is near the frontline in the war with Russian forces.

In fact the Russians bombed the Motor Sich plant, one of the biggest names in the Soviet MIC, the firm that used to build most of the helicopter engines for the USSR. I presume they produce drone components and engines that have been sent over to Russia recently.


Most strategic assets and valuable targets in Ukraine have some air defense, and most of the missiles fired do miss their primary targets and cause a lot of damage falling down on nearby neighborhoods.



Some background on Motor Sich, which was acquired by a Chinese group before the war then repossessed:

Quote:

Motor Sich, located in Zaporozhye, develops and manufactures helicopter and aircraft engines, as well as industrial gas turbine units. Created during the USSR, this enterprise was the real pride of a superpower and was one of the three largest aircraft engine manufacturers in the world. The power plant is the most difficult part of the aircraft, the development and manufacture of which is an extremely non-trivial task available to a very narrow circle of countries. For Russia, the severance of industrial ties with Ukraine in 2014 became a huge problem, since many programs for the production of helicopters and aircraft were in question without engines.

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.blogspot.com/2021/05/how-turkey-was-able-to-intercept.html

Lets Go Brandon 19
How long do you want to ignore this user?
movielover said:



Big C
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bear2034 said:



Gradually, then suddenly.

No way NATO takes in Ukraine and invokes Article 5 on Russia. Not gonna happen. Nobody wants to put boots on the ground and have the war spread (not to mention the risk of it going nuclear).

I suspect Blinken was referring to maybe accepting Ukraine in the (distant) future.


There never should have been any talk of Ukraine in NATO in the first place. That was what really got a bug up Putin's butt.
Zippergate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
No one?!? Oh really?!?

https://open.substack.com/pub/meaninginhistory/p/to-the-brink-and-beyond?r=aiop6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Readers may be aware that professional yacker Edward Luttwak recently published an article at Unherd that has some people worked uppro and con. Luttwak, for those unfamiliar with him, is a pretty typical Neocon. That means that he's a relentless self promoter of a highly ideological point of view and inhabits an echo chamber with others of the same persuasion. He's been wrong countless times, but is never humbled or discouraged by the experience and never learns. He is said to advise the State Department, which should come as no surprise. His article argues that NATO needs to insert its forces into Ukraine toand this is the counterintuitive partavoid a catastrophic defeat.
Big C
How long do you want to ignore this user?

That clown, who I've never heard of, may be one voice. But it ain't gonna happen. Nor should it. I don't want Ukraine to suffer a "catastrophic defeat", but if it happens, it happens.

People say Putin would then march westward into Poland. Wrong. He just really wants Ukraine. I don't want him to have it, but as your good friend Barack Obama said, Ukraine may lie within the sphere of Russia's vital interests, but it doesn't lie within ours.
Zippergate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I hope Biden's handlers are similarly sensible.
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Big C said:


That clown, who I've never heard of, may be one voice. But it ain't gonna happen. Nor should it. I don't want Ukraine to suffer a "catastrophic defeat", but if it happens, it happens.

People say Putin would then march westward into Poland. Wrong. He just really wants Ukraine. I don't want him to have it, but as your good friend Barack Obama said, Ukraine may lie within the sphere of Russia's vital interests, but they don't lie within ours.

No, I think Putin really wants to restore the former Russian empire, as he's said. But the amount of resources he's had to expend only in Ukraine may well have made that impossible.
Eastern Oregon Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Palestinian Chicken said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:


That clown, who I've never heard of, may be one voice. But it ain't gonna happen. Nor should it. I don't want Ukraine to suffer a "catastrophic defeat", but if it happens, it happens.

People say Putin would then march westward into Poland. Wrong. He just really wants Ukraine. I don't want him to have it, but as your good friend Barack Obama said, Ukraine may lie within the sphere of Russia's vital interests, but they don't lie within ours.
No, I think Putin really wants to restore the former Russian empire, as he's said. But the amount of resources he's had to expend only in Ukraine may well have made that impossible.
You ever consider the possibility that maybe your total accumulation of "wrong, wrong, wrong" about this war should lead you to the conclusion that maybe you should just STFU forever on the topic?
We are waiting for you to follow that advice on a wide range of topics.
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Palestinian Chicken said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:


That clown, who I've never heard of, may be one voice. But it ain't gonna happen. Nor should it. I don't want Ukraine to suffer a "catastrophic defeat", but if it happens, it happens.

People say Putin would then march westward into Poland. Wrong. He just really wants Ukraine. I don't want him to have it, but as your good friend Barack Obama said, Ukraine may lie within the sphere of Russia's vital interests, but they don't lie within ours.
No, I think Putin really wants to restore the former Russian empire, as he's said. But the amount of resources he's had to expend only in Ukraine may well have made that impossible.
You ever consider the possibility that maybe your total accumulation of "wrong, wrong, wrong" about this war should lead you to the conclusion that maybe you should just STFU forever on the topic?
We are waiting for you to follow that advice on a wide range of topics.

Care to point out just where he was wrong on the topic of the Ukraine war?

Or where U2Sucks has been right on this topic, for that matter?


Two years ago I was posting about how Ukraine doesn't have a chance to win on the battlefield, with Russian having a clear escalatory dominance over Ukraine and its NATO backers. Now even the MSM is coming around, trying to walk back their narrative of NATO military supremacy and Russian incompetence:

Ukraine is at great risk of its front lines collapsing
According to high-ranking Ukrainian officers, the military picture is grim and Russian generals could find success wherever they decide to focus their upcoming offensive.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-great-risk-front-line-collapse-war-russia/

With no way out of a worsening war, Zelensky's options look bad or worse
By Isabelle Khurshudyan April 6, 2024 at 1:00 a.m. EDT
KYIV As Russia steps up airstrikes and once again advances on the battlefield in Ukraine more than two years into its bloody invasion, there is no end to the fighting in sight. And President Volodymyr Zelensky's options for what to do next much less how to win the war range from bad to worse.

Zelensky has said Ukraine will accept nothing less than the return of all its territory, including land that Russia has controlled since 2014. But with the battle lines changing little in the last year, militarily retaking the swaths of east and south Ukraine that Russia now occupies about 20 percent of the country appears increasingly unlikely.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/06/ukraine-war-zelensky-options/

Still a lot of falsehoods in that WaPo article, lie the notion that the battle is now a stalemate, or that Zelensky and Kyiv have any leverage over Russia to make territorial demands,but at least they're no longer cheerleading Baghdad Bob-style...

The best peace option at this point Ukraine has is for them to fully demilitarize, keep NATO out of Ukraine and enact political reforms restoring the rights of their Russophone minority and removing the cult of Bandera. This would allow Ukraine to hold on to their current territory.
movielover
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Is U2S auditioning to become a paid propagandist?
movielover
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Big C said:


That clown, who I've never heard of, may be one voice. But it ain't gonna happen. Nor should it. I don't want Ukraine to suffer a "catastrophic defeat", but if it happens, it happens.

People say Putin would then march westward into Poland. Wrong. He just really wants Ukraine. I don't want him to have it, but as your good friend Barack Obama said, Ukraine may lie within the sphere of Russia's vital interests, but they don't lie within ours.


My guess is he'd be satisfied with Eastern 20% of Ukraine, Crimea acknowledged as Russian territory, and Ukraine 100% neutral. If not, he'll continue to move westward.

Meanwhile, Estonia reportedly has a million shells for auction.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/04/06/estonia-just-found-another-million-shells-for-ukraine/
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
^ Amazing what you can find in the lost and found department in Tallinn...
movielover
How long do you want to ignore this user?
A quick 5-second summary of virtually every U2S post.

calpoly
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Cal88 said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Palestinian Chicken said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:


That clown, who I've never heard of, may be one voice. But it ain't gonna happen. Nor should it. I don't want Ukraine to suffer a "catastrophic defeat", but if it happens, it happens.

People say Putin would then march westward into Poland. Wrong. He just really wants Ukraine. I don't want him to have it, but as your good friend Barack Obama said, Ukraine may lie within the sphere of Russia's vital interests, but they don't lie within ours.
No, I think Putin really wants to restore the former Russian empire, as he's said. But the amount of resources he's had to expend only in Ukraine may well have made that impossible.
You ever consider the possibility that maybe your total accumulation of "wrong, wrong, wrong" about this war should lead you to the conclusion that maybe you should just STFU forever on the topic?
We are waiting for you to follow that advice on a wide range of topics.

Care to point out just where he was wrong on the topic of the Ukraine war?

Or where U2Sucks has been right on this topic, for that matter?


Two years ago I was posting about how Ukraine doesn't have a chance to win on the battlefield, with Russian having a clear escalatory dominance over Ukraine and its NATO backers. Now even the MSM is coming around, trying to walk back their narrative of NATO military supremacy and Russian incompetence:

Ukraine is at great risk of its front lines collapsing
According to high-ranking Ukrainian officers, the military picture is grim and Russian generals could find success wherever they decide to focus their upcoming offensive.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-great-risk-front-line-collapse-war-russia/

With no way out of a worsening war, Zelensky's options look bad or worse
By Isabelle Khurshudyan April 6, 2024 at 1:00 a.m. EDT
KYIV As Russia steps up airstrikes and once again advances on the battlefield in Ukraine more than two years into its bloody invasion, there is no end to the fighting in sight. And President Volodymyr Zelensky's options for what to do next much less how to win the war range from bad to worse.

Zelensky has said Ukraine will accept nothing less than the return of all its territory, including land that Russia has controlled since 2014. But with the battle lines changing little in the last year, militarily retaking the swaths of east and south Ukraine that Russia now occupies about 20 percent of the country appears increasingly unlikely.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/06/ukraine-war-zelensky-options/

Still a lot of falsehoods in that WaPo article, lie the notion that the battle is now a stalemate, or that Zelensky and Kyiv have any leverage over Russia to make territorial demands,but at least they're no longer cheerleading Baghdad Bob-style...

The best peace option at this point Ukraine has is for them to fully demilitarize, keep NATO out of Ukraine and enact political reforms restoring the rights of their Russophone minority and removing the cult of Bandera. This would allow Ukraine to hold on to their current territory.
"Care to point out just where he was wrong on the topic of the Ukraine war?"

A shorter (and faster to produce) list might be where he was right! A similar statement can be made at 88 as well.
Lets Go Brandon 19
How long do you want to ignore this user?
movielover said:

Is U2S auditioning to become a paid propagandist?
He better up his game. He's not operating at anywhere near a New York Times level.
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
calpoly said:

Cal88 said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Palestinian Chicken said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:


That clown, who I've never heard of, may be one voice. But it ain't gonna happen. Nor should it. I don't want Ukraine to suffer a "catastrophic defeat", but if it happens, it happens.

People say Putin would then march westward into Poland. Wrong. He just really wants Ukraine. I don't want him to have it, but as your good friend Barack Obama said, Ukraine may lie within the sphere of Russia's vital interests, but they don't lie within ours.
No, I think Putin really wants to restore the former Russian empire, as he's said. But the amount of resources he's had to expend only in Ukraine may well have made that impossible.
You ever consider the possibility that maybe your total accumulation of "wrong, wrong, wrong" about this war should lead you to the conclusion that maybe you should just STFU forever on the topic?
We are waiting for you to follow that advice on a wide range of topics.

Care to point out just where he was wrong on the topic of the Ukraine war?

Or where U2Sucks has been right on this topic, for that matter?


Two years ago I was posting about how Ukraine doesn't have a chance to win on the battlefield, with Russian having a clear escalatory dominance over Ukraine and its NATO backers. Now even the MSM is coming around, trying to walk back their narrative of NATO military supremacy and Russian incompetence:

Ukraine is at great risk of its front lines collapsing
According to high-ranking Ukrainian officers, the military picture is grim and Russian generals could find success wherever they decide to focus their upcoming offensive.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-great-risk-front-line-collapse-war-russia/

With no way out of a worsening war, Zelensky's options look bad or worse
By Isabelle Khurshudyan April 6, 2024 at 1:00 a.m. EDT
KYIV As Russia steps up airstrikes and once again advances on the battlefield in Ukraine more than two years into its bloody invasion, there is no end to the fighting in sight. And President Volodymyr Zelensky's options for what to do next much less how to win the war range from bad to worse.

Zelensky has said Ukraine will accept nothing less than the return of all its territory, including land that Russia has controlled since 2014. But with the battle lines changing little in the last year, militarily retaking the swaths of east and south Ukraine that Russia now occupies about 20 percent of the country appears increasingly unlikely.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/06/ukraine-war-zelensky-options/

Still a lot of falsehoods in that WaPo article, lie the notion that the battle is now a stalemate, or that Zelensky and Kyiv have any leverage over Russia to make territorial demands,but at least they're no longer cheerleading Baghdad Bob-style...

The best peace option at this point Ukraine has is for them to fully demilitarize, keep NATO out of Ukraine and enact political reforms restoring the rights of their Russophone minority and removing the cult of Bandera. This would allow Ukraine to hold on to their current territory.
"Care to point out just where he was wrong on the topic of the Ukraine war?"

A shorter (and faster to produce) list might be where he was right! A similar statement can be made at 88 as well.

Your quote of my post right here would be a good start.
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Russia just posted a GDP growth of 7.7% year to year for February, up from 4.6% in January, March expected around 7%. High growth in the Russian industrial sector due to western imports being curtailed as a result of sanctions...





movielover
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Too little, too late. The bloodshed will continue.

Zona Military: The USA has authorized Denmark, Norway, and the Netherlands to transfer 65 F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter jets to Ukraine

Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
^ Those jets will be flown mostly by NATO pilots, I don't think Ukraine has more than a couple of dozen pilots trained on the F-16, which flies differently with its side stick and reclined position.

Their achille's heel will be the ground facilities required to park and maintain these jets when they're not in the air, in addition to the Russian S-300/S-400s and the long-range air-to-air R37M missiles with which Russian fighter jets have shot down well over 100 Ukrainian jets. If however the F-16s are armed with French/Euro Meteor missiles, they would fight jet to jet on a nearly equal footing with the Russians.
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
movielover
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Colonel Douglass McGregor typically also mentions who will maintain them, who will have the parts, etc.
movielover
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Russian Forces in Ukraine to Receive Modernized 2S19M1 Howitzers with Drone-Targeting Capabilities
First Page Last Page
Page 239 of 284
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.