I wouldn't underestimate the West's stupidity and arrogance given our recent history.

1. We openly supported or led a coup in Ukraine around 2014, including Victoria Nuland and possibly our CIA.
2. Western leaders openly admitted Minsk I & II were ploys to string Russia out while they built up our proxy; we played Putin, hence his direct letter.
3. Stoltenberg refused to answer Putin's strongly worded, direct, common-sense (from their viewpoint) letter four months before the SMO.
5. As troops amassed on Ukraine's border.
6. We put 12 CIA 'secret facilities' on the Russian border. (NYT)
7. Two years into our proxy war, 44 4-star Generals still have no actionable plan to manufacture large quantities of ammunitions.
8. When the public realized we were running out of ammunition, some Biden underlings spoke about using 'tactical nukes'.
9. We don't have a designated peace negotiator; and we're not talking to Russia daily or weekly.
10. We blew up the NS pipelines in an attempt to weaken Russia; funny thing, lots of non-NATO countries need Russia's energy supplies!
11. Our war in Ukraine has made Iran and China closer to the Bear.
12. Our top military (lobbyist) commander was unreachable for several days, possibly getting gastric bypass surgery.
13. More Americans are aware of our unending world meddling - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Israel, Ukraine / Russia.
14. Biden (Obama) released $16 Billion to the Mother Country of Terrorism, unlocking tens of Billions more for Iran.
15. Hamas struck Israel weeks later.
16. Apparently the Israeli Lobby has Biden in a pickle, forcing him to continue to supply ammunitions to what many now believe is an ethnic cleansing.
17. Instead of being a Statesman and having a cease fire and peace talks with Putin, Biden (Obama) are more worried about re-election. Hence, another 150-200,000 Ukrainian men will be killed, and more land taken, before the November election.

Given the above, anything is possible.

Nice 17-point list. All I can say is that NATO troops fighting in Ukraine would be a major, risky escalation of this conflict and really dumb. The Cold War sucked and was largely pointless, but at least it sucked a heckuva lot less than if it had become a "hot" war. So there's that.

Big C said:

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173 Days Til No Joe said:

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Big C said:

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Zippergate said:

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NATO is considering sending troops to Ukraine according to reports. We are closer to WWIII than at any time since 1962.

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That would be a really bad move. I don't expect it to happen. Very, very unlikely.

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Yeah, it's really hard to envision NATO countries making a dumb decision since all their recent decisions have been so sound.

Quote:

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Looking for a settlement with relatively favorable terms.

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Losers don't get favorable terms.

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Nobody wants to see the war spread beyond Russia/Ukraine. Perhaps least of all NATO countries. Sending NATO troops to fight in Ukraine would be a major escalation and a terrible move. I have to believe we're not that stupid.

Regarding terms of a settlement, I did say "relatively" favorable. Lots of possibilities there.

Some posters sound like they're actually rooting for Russia these days. I just don't get that.

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Quote:

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Nice 17-point list. All I can say is that NATO troops fighting in Ukraine would be a major, risky escalation of this conflict and really dumb. The Cold War sucked and was largely pointless, but at least it sucked a heckuva lot less than if it had become a "hot" war. So there's that.

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NATO hawks and neocons are working on a second front against Russia in Georgia right now. They have no skin in the game, and are driven by a combination of hubris and ideological verve.

Milley had a courageous moment last year after the Russians retreated in Kherson and Karkhov, stating that Ukraine should seek a settlement now as they achieved a very favorable negotiating position having regained a lot of their territory and are unlikely to move further. He was rebuked and went back to the party line.

As Obama noted in 2014, the Russians have a vital interest in eastern Ukraine and Crimea, while we don't, which is why NATO didn't intervene directly when Russia annexed Crimea. The deep state though went into regime change overdrive, executing the Maidan Coup and color revolution.

Don't feed the trolls

dajo9 said:

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Don't feed the trolls

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It seems to me that a lot of these people have made big claims about who is winning this war and that a breakthrough is about to come, and yet the actual battle lines have moved very little in more than a year. (And yes, the Ukrainians have also made some big promises that failed to come through.)

Now personally, I consider that a relative loss for Russia because they are supposed to be the bigger and stronger military, and they clearly wanted to topple Kiev but were forced to scale back their ambitions. But in an absolute sense, the war seems to be bogged down and no one is really winning. (Which, again, is something that seemed pretty predictable early on.)

Ukraine has been gaining ground the past few weeks.

Russia's goal wasn't ground (land), it was wiping out the Ukrainian and NATO military weapons & personnel while minimizing their own casualties, which, in turn, kept domestic support high. Ukraine has over 600K KIA and 100K amputees. They control the skies. NATO can't produce ammo, and Ukraine can't supply soldiers. These are well-established facts.

I've seen no signs that Russia wants Kiev. It does appear that they may move to the Dniper River, but the longer the West takes to come to the table, the more land they'll take. Kherson & even Odessa may fall. That would be a big blow. The land is firming up, and they've got 300K troops in reserve. Colonel Douglass McGregor says they are now in 'shaping' movements.

movielover said:

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I've seen no signs that Russia wants Kiev.

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LOL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kyiv_(2022)

Meanwhile....

The term of Volodimir Zelenskyy as President of Ukraine officially ends TODAY (May 20th), according to Ukraine's Constitution.

Since he cancelled Ukraine's elections, there is no official replacement for him.

Tik tok tik tok....

Darth Nuland is back, seeking US direct help in allowing Ukraine to hit targets inside Russia. Who brought her back, Blinken? Valerie Jarrett?

SHORT video.

🇺🇦🇷🇺 Ukranian soldiers explains that people are just taken at the street and brought to the front says later.

Having no training they have no chance.

Inhumane pic.twitter.com/GmeXhY4fz2

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) May 21, 2024

cbbass1 said:

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Meanwhile....

The term of Volodimir Zelenskyy as President of Ukraine officially ends TODAY (May 20th), according to Ukraine's Constitution.

Since he cancelled Ukraine's elections, there is no official replacement for him.

Tik tok tik tok....

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https://t.co/IgJKVb8ATW pic.twitter.com/KT3uekjNlJ

— ALX 🇺🇸 (@alx) May 21, 2024

sycasey said:

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I don't love the idea of suspending elections in Ukraine, but their country is literally being invaded right now. It's understandable.

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Zel's people shut down opposition parties and media well before the Russians barged into Ukraine.

His popularity right now is in toilet, below 20%, that is the real reason they aren't having elections.

Putin proposes ceasefire, Zelensky rejects it
https://news.sky.com/story/vladimir-putin-ready-to-freeze-war-in-ukraine-with-ceasefire-recognising-recent-russian-gains-sources-say-13142402
(Front of article)
Vladimir Putin is ready to halt the war in Ukraine with a ceasefire that recognises the current battlefield lines, four Russian sources have told the Reuters news agency.
Three of the sources claimed that the Russian leader had expressed frustration about what he views as Western-backed attempts to hinder ceasefire negotiations.

"Putin can fight for as long as it takes, but Putin is also ready for a ceasefire - to freeze the war," a senior Russian source who has reportedly worked with Mr Putin and has knowledge of top-level conversations in the Kremlin, told Reuters.
The Russian president later told a press conference on Friday that peace talks with Ukraine need to be renewed, but they "must reflect realities on the ground".

Sources said freezing the conflict along current lines is a non-negotiable, as it would leave Russia in possession of substantial chunks of four Ukrainian regions, but without full control of any.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has repeatedly ruled out the possibility of a ceasefire, going so far as to sign a decree in 2022 that formally declared any talks with Mr Putin "impossible"

MinotStateBeav said:

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Putin proposes ceasefire, Zelensky rejects it
https://news.sky.com/story/vladimir-putin-ready-to-freeze-war-in-ukraine-with-ceasefire-recognising-recent-russian-gains-sources-say-13142402
(Front of article)
Vladimir Putin is ready to halt the war in Ukraine with a ceasefire that recognises the current battlefield lines, four Russian sources have told the Reuters news agency.
Three of the sources claimed that the Russian leader had expressed frustration about what he views as Western-backed attempts to hinder ceasefire negotiations.

"Putin can fight for as long as it takes, but Putin is also ready for a ceasefire - to freeze the war," a senior Russian source who has reportedly worked with Mr Putin and has knowledge of top-level conversations in the Kremlin, told Reuters.
The Russian president later told a press conference on Friday that peace talks with Ukraine need to be renewed, but they "must reflect realities on the ground".

Sources said freezing the conflict along current lines is a non-negotiable, as it would leave Russia in possession of substantial chunks of four Ukrainian regions, but without full control of any.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has repeatedly ruled out the possibility of a ceasefire, going so far as to sign a decree in 2022 that formally declared any talks with Mr Putin "impossible"

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They spun 'illegal' as "impossible", it is illegal for any Ukrainian official to talk about a ceasefire. One of the members of their last peace negotiation delegation was executed mafia-style because he was deemed too soft on Russia.

It's kind of unreal that the Ukrainian government is still refusing those terms, because the territories that Russia holds now certainly don't want to go back to Ukraine, and because its army is clearly going to lose and eventually collapse if this war keeps going on. With this apparent offer, Ukraine gets rid of its most hardcore pro-Russians and gets to hold on to 80% of its territory, those are great terms, pragmatically speaking, especially considering how much Ukraine has already lost in personnel.

Note as well that Putin is a moderate by current Russian standards, a lot of Russian officials are going to be pissed if the current borders hold.

The war has been hard on some Ukrainian couples...

There's "Italian Divorce" (1961)
there are also "Divorces in Ukrainian".

😏 There is no division of the estate and you can still get compensation for his death.😁

The photo shows "distinguished" wives of Ukrainian defenders who handed their husbands over to military commissars. pic.twitter.com/qUz0kwZGZ3

— Statler77 (@AleksanderDroz4) May 25, 2024

Then again looking at the closeups, perhaps their husbands would rather take their chances in the trenches...

"... & that Putin "tried everything possible to conclude agreement with Ukraine." He says that it was Putin's "personal decision to accept the text of this communique."

"Such peace deal framework to end war was also confirmed by head of Ukrainian delegation, officials close to Zelensky, ex-Israeli PM, ex-German chancellor, Putin, Turkish FM, former US officials & Arestovych. First five stated that deal was blocked by US/UK."

Confirmation we blocked it.

Wow! Ukraine Ambassador Chalyi, who participated in peace talks with Russia in Spring 2022, states that "we concluded" "Istanbul Communique" & "were very close in... April to finalize our war with some peaceful settlement" & that Putin "tried everything possible to conclude… pic.twitter.com/NxknX9mTgP

— Ivan Katchanovski (@I_Katchanovski) December 28, 2023

^ Zelensky and Boris J have the blood of 600,000 Ukrainians on their hands.

Cal88 said:

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^ Zelensky and Boris J have the blood of 600,000 Ukrainians on their hands.

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And Putin's hands are clean!

Here's an idea: criticize ALL the responsible parties.


Oh, I forgot I was addressing Putin88, Vlad's YUGEST fan boy. His attitude is "If invasion and massacre are inevitable, relax and enjoy it."

AunBear89 said:

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Cal88 said:

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^ Zelensky and Boris J have the blood of 600,000 Ukrainians on their hands.

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And Putin's hands are clean!

Here's an idea: criticize ALL the responsible parties.

Oh, I forgot I was addressing Putin88, Vlad's YUGEST fan boy. His attitude is "If invasion and massacre are inevitable, relax and enjoy it."

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One party offered a viable and fair peace agreement at several stages in this escalation, starting with the Minsk Agreements and on to the Istanbul peace agreement corroborated above by Ukrainian sources. Those viable offers would have ended the civil war in Ukraine, completely prevented the war with Russia or ended it in April 22,. All these offers were summarily rejected by NATO.

In doing this, NATO did not give a damn about the consequences for Ukraine, they have cynically used Ukraine to try to bleed Russia. as clearly outlined by Mearsheimer a decade ago, in a video with 30 million views:

And that one party is Putin. And we should trust everything he says and not look too closely to details.


Putin good. Western Liberals bad. Got it. If rape is inevitable, just lie back and enjoy it.

AunBear89 said:

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And that one party is Putin. And we should trust everything he says and not look too closely to details.


Putin good. Western Liberals bad. Got it. If rape is inevitable, just lie back and enjoy it.

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You have been getting raped lately on this forum, and you certainly aren't lying back and enjoying it.

You have a very rich and disturbing fantasy life. How often do you fantasize about you and the rest of the BI Righteous Righties raping me with your micrococks?


Whatever gets you off, creep. I'd feel sorry for your wife, but she was desperate enough to marry you, so…

AunBear89 said:

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You have a very rich and disturbing fantasy life. How often do you fantasize about you and the rest of the BI Righteous Righties raping me with your micrococks?


Whatever gets you off, creep. I'd feel sorry for your wife, but she was desperate enough to marry you, so…

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Lol. You really showed me!

Never wrestle with a pig and all that.

AunBear89 said:

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And that one party is Putin. And we should trust everything he says and not look too closely to details.


Putin good. Western Liberals bad. Got it. If rape is inevitable, just lie back and enjoy it.

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No, you actually should definitely look more closely into the details and perhaps learn something from listening to Mearsheimer's analysis, or at least provide your feedback on why you think he is wrong (even though his prediction turned out to be prophetically true),

Your understanding of the Ukraine crisis mirrors that of the lower-info/misinfoed general public, who has been sold that crisis as a Hollywood storyboard with Putin as the bad hombre/Bond villain. Funnily enough that level of understanding is consistent with your Hollywood avatar...

My rule of thumb is that whoever started the invasion is most responsible for the death and destruction. Apparently this is a controversial idea now.

Cal88 said:

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AunBear89 said:

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And that one party is Putin. And we should trust everything he says and not look too closely to details.


Putin good. Western Liberals bad. Got it. If rape is inevitable, just lie back and enjoy it.

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No, you actually should definitely look more closely into the details and perhaps learn something from listening to Mearsheimer's analysis, or at least provide your feedback on why you think he is wrong (even though his prediction turned out to be prophetically true),

Your understanding of the Ukraine crisis mirrors that of the lower-info/misinfoed general public, who has been sold that crisis as a Hollywood storyboard with Putin as the bad hombre/Bond villain. Funnily enough that level of understanding is consistent with your Hollywood avatar...

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Mearsheimer can be largely correct and Putin can also be a bad hombre. Agree that the situation is more nuanced than a typical Hollywood movie.


And, okay, wrong thread but...

Same with Israel/Palestine. Mearsheimer is largely correct, Netanyahu is a bad hombre and Hamas is an even worser "hombre". This would be my problem with the pro-Palestine camp: Does their memory go back farther than last October 8th? Not to say that what has happened since isn't protest worthy, just that the situation is a lot more complicated than that and I don't think they understand it all.

sycasey said:

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My rule of thumb is that whoever started the invasion is most responsible for the death and destruction. Apparently this is a controversial idea now.

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The death and destruction started in 2014, when the Kiev regime sent its tanks and fighter-bombers over cities like Donetsk, Luhansk and Mariupol,

Back in 2014 when the Post Maidan Coup Regime of Petro Poroshenko began a full scale assault on his own people in Donbas, CNN produced this report.

The Kiev Regime unleashed this violence against its dissenting citizens in the East. They began the bombing. The killing. The War pic.twitter.com/y9KcfyCkEw

— Chay Bowes (@BowesChay) February 27, 2024

Ukraine president Poroshenko boasting about bombing Donbas children in 2014:

Big C said:

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Cal88 said:

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AunBear89 said:

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And that one party is Putin. And we should trust everything he says and not look too closely to details.


Putin good. Western Liberals bad. Got it. If rape is inevitable, just lie back and enjoy it.

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No, you actually should definitely look more closely into the details and perhaps learn something from listening to Mearsheimer's analysis, or at least provide your feedback on why you think he is wrong (even though his prediction turned out to be prophetically true),

Your understanding of the Ukraine crisis mirrors that of the lower-info/misinfoed general public, who has been sold that crisis as a Hollywood storyboard with Putin as the bad hombre/Bond villain. Funnily enough that level of understanding is consistent with your Hollywood avatar...

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Mearsheimer can be largely correct and Putin can also be a bad hombre. Agree that the situation is more nuanced than a typical Hollywood movie.


And, okay, wrong thread but...

Same with Israel/Palestine. Mearsheimer is largely correct, Netanyahu is a bad hombre and Hamas is an even worser "hombre". This would be my problem with the pro-Palestine camp: Does their memory go back farther than last October 8th? Not to say that what has happened since isn't protest worthy, just that the situation is a lot more complicated than that and I don't think they understand it all.

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Does your own memory go back farther than October 7th?

Max Blumenthal's 1 minute response to that point:


His longer answer, more specifically about Oct. 7, very much worth considering:
https://www.youtube.com/live/iWbXVjlsb-k?si=PiI0qS4YbQLTCjDZ&t=287

The situation is not nearly that complicated, Israel has been conducting ethnic cleansing in Palestine since the 1940s, and this is one major step towards that long process.

There was at one time hope of a 2-state solution under Israeli PM Itzak Rabin, but the radicals took over Israeli mainstream and have been in charge for decades now, hellbent on carving out Greater Israel. Israel is the only country in the world without officially defined borders, it is an ongoing expansion project.

And the current situation qualifies as genocide, that much is not that complicated to understand:

He wasn’t convinced it was a genocide in Dec, but now he’s convinced that Israel is involved in a genocide

Prof. John Mearsheimer explains what made him change his mind pic.twitter.com/64cDTkfGZX

— Abier (@abierkhatib) May 19, 2024

Professor John Mearsheimer explains why, at this point, "genocide" is an accurate word to describe what Israel is doing in Gaza 👇 pic.twitter.com/rppe7SuNND

— System Update (@SystemUpdate_) January 6, 2024

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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My rule of thumb is that whoever started the invasion is most responsible for the death and destruction. Apparently this is a controversial idea now.

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The death and destruction started in 2014, when the Kiev regime sent its tanks and fighter-bombers over cities like Donetsk, Luhansk and Mariupol,

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The part you left out was Russia invading Crimea and funding/leading violent separatist groups in that part of Ukraine. So yeah, this is still about Putin starting it.

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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My rule of thumb is that whoever started the invasion is most responsible for the death and destruction. Apparently this is a controversial idea now.

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The death and destruction started in 2014, when the Kiev regime sent its tanks and fighter-bombers over cities like Donetsk, Luhansk and Mariupol,

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The part you left out was Russia invading Crimea and funding/leading violent separatist groups in that part of Ukraine. So yeah, this is still about Putin starting it.

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The transfer of Crimea from Ukraine to Russia was peaceful and supported by the overwhelming majority of Crimeans, according to several independent western polls and the official referendum. It was made possible by the fact that nearly the entire 20,000 strong contingent of Ukrainian military personnel, being mostly locals, switched allegiance after the post-Maidan government enacted anti-Russian legislation. The great majority of Crimeans are ethnic Russians who are far closer culturally to SW Russia than to the west Ukrainian heartland.



Crimea was ceded from the Russian Soviet State to the Ukrainian Soviet State as a politically-motivated gesture by Khrushchev in the early 50s. Of course as both states were part of the USSR, it was a minor internal soviet bureaucratic bit of jerrymandering at that time.

The same switching of allegiances happened in the Donbas, and that's when Kiev launched its "Anti-Terrorist Operation" in 2014 to crush the rebellion. They largely failed to do so in a bloody civil war, until 2022 when they raised a large, well-equipped and well-trained (NATO) army that was about to overrun the Donbas rebels with Crimea as the next target.

That is when Russia intervened. Of course all of this was supposed to be prevented by the Minsk Agreements, and then the Istanbul peace treaty, but Boris and co. didn't like that.