dajo9 said:

---

You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

movielover said:

---

I've listened to several new voices (to me), and they all seem to have some similiar, tough conclusions:

Ukraine stays on the same path, and NATO / US don't negotiate a realistic peace, Putin may go all the way to the Polish border. Ukraine down to ten battalions, possibly a total of only 30-40,000 active troops? (Russia well over 750,000)

A risk of nuclear war in several spheres. Thick-headed American bureaucrats who think we can use 'tactical nukes' against Russia. Then Hezbollah shelling northern Israel, Egypt possibly enters the war, and possibly Turkey and or Iran.

And now Russia and NK kissing cousins. Will Russia hand off military technology to NK?

Disaster.

---

Contrary to MacGregor, I didn't think Turkey could or would ever enter in a war against Israel, due to politics and geography, but the emerging Cyprus angle makes it a definite possibility. In an Israeli attack on Lebanon, the US and NATO carriers and Israeli air bases are vulnerable to missiles, so (Greek) Cyprus would be a main staging ground for Israeli reinforcement.

The northeastern half of Cyprus has been occupied by Turkey since the 70s, the Turks could interfere with Israeli/US operations out of Cypriot airfields (which have a British status similar to Gibraltar's). Turkey has the largest army in Europe after Russia...

This would actually be a popular cause in Turkey, as they have had a long and simmering conflict with Greece over Cyprus and in the Agean, it would blend Turkish nationalism with the Palestinian cause, which is very popular among Erdogan's constituency. Not saying that this confrontation in Cyprus with Turkey will occur, but it is definitely within the realm of possibilities.

movielover said:

---

BREAKING: Russia signs mutual defense alliance with North Korea

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) June 19, 2024

---

If it's OK for the U.S. to set up, target, and arm ATACMS missiles in Ukraine, to be launched by Ukrainian soldiers at targets deep inside Russia, then surely it must be OK for Russia to do the same, and launch missiles deep into U.S. territory from Cuba & N Korea.

After all, doesn't Russia have the right to defend itself?

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

---

Why do you think Cal88 and a bunch of other people on this board are siding with the enemy and therefore hate America so much? Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

---

Why do you think Cal88 and a bunch of other people on this board are siding with the enemy and therefore hate America so much? Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

---

No, you don't seem to understand protest

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

---

Why do you think Cal88 and a bunch of other people on this board are siding with the enemy and therefore hate America so much? Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

---

No, you don't seem to understand protest

---

Lol, you don't seem to understand protest.

It is just one of SOOOO many things these clowns don't understand.

It really is very sad that some of these morons actually studied at Cal and clearly came away as ignorant as they were before.

AunBear89 said:

---

It is just one of SOOOO many things these clowns don't understand.

It really is very sad that some of these morons actually studied at Cal and clearly came away as ignorant as they were before.

---

You and Dajo here are either idiots or pretending to be. At least try to make legitimate arguments as to why protesting our intervention in the Vietnam War is patriotic and protesting our intervention in the Russia/Ukraine war is anti-American. Please tell me you don't reach your poor students to be as narrow-minded as you are.

cbbass1 said:

---

movielover said:

---

BREAKING: Russia signs mutual defense alliance with North Korea

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) June 19, 2024

---

If it's OK for the U.S. to set up, target, and arm ATACMS missiles in Ukraine, to be launched by Ukrainian soldiers at targets deep inside Russia, then surely it must be OK for Russia to do the same, and launch missiles deep into U.S. territory from Cuba & N Korea.

After all, doesn't Russia have the right to defend itself?

---

And we have operators on the ground.

oski003 said:

---

AunBear89 said:

---

It is just one of SOOOO many things these clowns don't understand.

It really is very sad that some of these morons actually studied at Cal and clearly came away as ignorant as they were before.

---

You and Dajo here are either idiots or pretending to be. At least try to make legitimate arguments as to why protesting our intervention in the Vietnam War is patriotic and protesting our intervention in the Russia/Ukraine war is anti-American. Please tell me you don't reach your poor students to be as narrow-minded as you are.

---

Intervention? How about our prodding, provocation, meddling, and acts of war?

AunBear89 said:

---

I do not think it is possible to adequately explain such nuanced issues to such a smooth brained ...

This is only a start.

Or you could continue pretending that saying we should let Russia have as much of Ukraine as they want is the same as saying the United States should not be sacrificing a generation of young men for what had been an ideological proxy war.

EDIT: someone smarter than a turnip wrote the above rant. I hope someone dumber than a bag of hammers reads it and understands a quarter of it.

---

WHO wrote this, and WHEN. Back it up.

AunBear89 said:

---

I do not think it is possible to adequately explain such nuanced issues to such a smooth brained individual in this format.

Your false equivalency reveals either your ignorance or biases, perhaps a bit of both.

A discussion of this topic requires first clarifying for you how each war is different, and how the global political and historical contexts are vastly different, as are the political and cultural realities of America in both periods.

Explaining all of this context for both wars and the associated protests would take a very long time as it would likely require tearing down deeply ingrained assumptions you have on both conflicts, as well as the protests. There is likely a lot of geopolitical history of both regions, and the roles played by all the players in the history of the regions and associated conflicts.

This is only a start.

Or you could continue pretending that saying we should let Russia have as much of Ukraine as they want is the same as saying the United States should not be sacrificing a generation of young men for what had been an ideological proxy war.

EDIT: someone smarter than a turnip wrote the above rant. I hope someone dumber than a bag of hammers reads it and understands a quarter of it.

---

Hey, thanks for getting into the topic and trying to engage in a real conversation with (relatively) less acrimony.

This is where I might start in terms of challenging your perspective above, with a serious presentation by the foremost IR academic in America, Mearsheimer. This fundamental lecture on Ukraine, given nearly ten years ago, and havig been viewed 30 million times, really sets the context and framework of this conflict; his perspective turned out to be quite prophetic, his main predictions having been realized:



The Ukraine conflict actually shares a lof of commonalities with the Vietnam War or the Iraqi invasion. One of the main differences is that it takes place directly at Russia's borders, as opposed to on a remote proxy staging ground, which makes the Ukraine war particularly dangerous in terms of escalation into WW3.

Unlike Vietnam, there are no American soldiers being drafted to fight in Ukraine.

sycasey said:

---

Unlike Vietnam, there are no American soldiers being drafted to fight in Ukraine.

---

There have been several hundred Americans KIAs in this conflict, and well over 100 French soldiers killed (over 50 legionnaires killed in one day in Kharkov earlier this year).

Large numbers of US/NATO crews are manning and directing weapon systems against the Russians, including yesterday's ATACMS cluster munition strike on a crowded beach in Crimea, which has killed at least two Russian children and injured over 100 beachgoers:

Ukrainian armed forces attacked Sevastopol's Uchkuyevsky beach in Crimea. The attack was carried out with ATACMS missiles. There are dead and wounded.

The number of injured is 124, including 27 children. Five children are in danger.

The first video shows the moment of the… pic.twitter.com/HMDXRCZ8Zq

— S p r i n t e r F a m i l y (@SprinterFamily) June 23, 2024

🇺🇸🇺🇦💥🇷🇺 The U.S. Air Force RQ-4B Global Hawk high-altitude reconnaissance drone provided the Ukrainian Armed Forces with information and coordinated today's ATACMS missile strike, which used cluster munitions, on residential areas of Sevastopol.

As a result of the attack, three… pic.twitter.com/MRZSE9Hekk

— DD Geopolitics (@DD_Geopolitics) June 23, 2024

This is a very big deal in Russia now.

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Unlike Vietnam, there are no American soldiers being drafted to fight in Ukraine.

---

There have been several hundred Americans KIAs in this conflict, and well over 100 French soldiers killed (over 50 legionnaires killed in one day in Kharkov earlier this year).

---

Hey, good job refuting a point I didn't make.

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Unlike Vietnam, there are no American soldiers being drafted to fight in Ukraine.

---

There have been several hundred Americans KIAs in this conflict, and well over 100 French soldiers killed (over 50 legionnaires killed in one day in Kharkov earlier this year).

---

Hey, good job refuting a point I didn't make.

---

My response above was more about expanding on your point.

US boots on the ground as basic infantry (as opposed to specialists manning weapons systems) might not work out because NATO war tactics, which rely on complete air superiority and predate the drone age, are largely obsolete. This was one major complaint by Ukrainian soldiers receiving NATO training. This being said, the Ukrainians might be running out of manpower at this rate, losing around 1,500 soldiers per day lately.

NATO direct involvement on a larger scale would revolve around air power and the challenge of Russian air dominance, which has made a big difference through the introduction of gliding bombs. NATO having a significantly larger jet fleet could make a big impact through a campaign to challenge Russian bombing sorties combined with a campaign to attrit Russian air defense installations. The problem with this is that contrary to all previous US wars including WW2, the US/NATO air bases would be highly vulnerable to long-range Russian missile and drone attacks, including bases located deep into Poland, Romania, or even Germany. And of course a situation where NATO planes are bombibg Russia or Russians are bombing NATO bases is incredibly volatile and just one or two steps below nuclear escalation.

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

---

Why do you think Cal88 and a bunch of other people on this board are siding with the enemy and therefore hate America so much? Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

---

No, you don't seem to understand protest

---

"Many Americans opposed the war on moral grounds, appalled by the devastation and violence of the war. Others claimed the conflict was a war against Vietnamese independence or an intervention in a foreign civil war; others opposed it because they felt it lacked clear objectives and appeared to be unwinnable."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War#:~:text=Many%20Americans%20opposed%20the%20war,and%20appeared%20to%20be%20unwinnable.

Which protestors loved America and which protestors were anti-America in your mind?

Can any EU country stop their hypersonic missiles, and what is their range? With a detonated HM, say, in Germany, can we gain any technical knowledge from the remains?

Colonel McGregor says another risk is that the F15s can carry nuclear payloads? So does Russia take that risk?

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

AunBear89 said:

---

It is just one of SOOOO many things these clowns don't understand.

It really is very sad that some of these morons actually studied at Cal and clearly came away as ignorant as they were before.

---

You and Dajo here are either idiots or pretending to be. At least try to make legitimate arguments as to why protesting our intervention in the Vietnam War is patriotic and protesting our intervention in the Russia/Ukraine war is anti-American. Please tell me you don't reach your poor students to be as narrow-minded as you are.

---

John Lennon said it best

"If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow"

---

Does fantasizing that posters here carry pictures of Putin make it easier to come to grips with the crap that you post?

movielover said:

---

Can any EU country stop their hypersonic missiles, and what is their range? With a detonated HM, say, in Germany, can we gain any technical knowledge from the remains?

Colonel McGregor says another risk is that the F15s can carry nuclear payloads? So does Russia take that risk?

---

Very hard to stop at mach 9+ for both the Kinzhal and Zircon. The former is launched from a supersonic jet at high altitude and has a range of 2,000km, covers all of Poland from the Russian border, and all of Germany and Italy from Crimea:



The Zircon can be launched from ships or from the ground and have a range of 1,000km.

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

AunBear89 said:

---

It is just one of SOOOO many things these clowns don't understand.

It really is very sad that some of these morons actually studied at Cal and clearly came away as ignorant as they were before.

---

You and Dajo here are either idiots or pretending to be. At least try to make legitimate arguments as to why protesting our intervention in the Vietnam War is patriotic and protesting our intervention in the Russia/Ukraine war is anti-American. Please tell me you don't reach your poor students to be as narrow-minded as you are.

---

John Lennon said it best

"If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow"

---

Does fantasizing that posters here carry pictures of Putin make it easier to come to grips with the crap that you post?

---

No fantasies needed. You posted this:

Quote:

---

Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

---

That puts you on the wrong side of American history.

---

How so?