sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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They "invaded" bc they ignored Putin, overthrew the political leadership, inserted Victoria Nuland (aka Darth Vader) into the mix, put 12 CIA bases on Russias border, spent years planning to take Russian lands, and we're forcing NATO into Ukraine- a gard line for Russia. An existential threat.

---

Why does "invaded" always need to be in scare quotes for Russia, like they didn't actually do it? They did, it's okay to admit it.

---

We (NATO) invaded and dismantled Yugoslavia, balkanized and gerrymandered it into several new countries like Kosovo because one party mistreated the other.

---

Yugoslavia was already breaking apart on its own and it was probably good to prevent the genocide/apartheid conditions of the Kosovars. Also quite notably, the US and/or NATO never attempted to absorb that territory into one of its existing nations, instead helping to set up a separate independent nation.

---

The US/NATO egged on the Muslim Bosnian separatists to reject peace treaties signed by the Serbs and Croats and secede, which led to a major civil war there.

Those are the "good" separatists, as opposed to the Donbas separatists who are the "bad" separatists.

NATO died in Yugoslavia.

James Bissett, the former Canadian ambassador to Yugoslavia, explains in a minute and a half who started the war in the 1990s in the Balkans. It is a pity that this will also not report any media "bastions of truth", such as CNN and others.

Goebbels… https://t.co/11OTSdKFpF pic.twitter.com/kF80plBGJV

— SlavicFreeSpirit (@SlavFreeSpirit) September 3, 2025

Those new territories, Bosnia, Montenegro, Kosovo, N Macedonia were absorbed into NATO, some officially, others de facto.

Quote:

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Russia's claims against Ukraine have always been pretty heavily exaggerated or outright made-up, and they actually do want to absorb that territory for themselves. Quite different.

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What part of the 50+ unarmed russophone protestors burned alive or beaten to death by thugs bussed in from western Ukraine on May 2 2014 in Odessa is "heavily exaggerated"?

Yugoslavia wasn't in NATO?

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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They "invaded" bc they ignored Putin, overthrew the political leadership, inserted Victoria Nuland (aka Darth Vader) into the mix, put 12 CIA bases on Russias border, spent years planning to take Russian lands, and we're forcing NATO into Ukraine- a gard line for Russia. An existential threat.

---

Why does "invaded" always need to be in scare quotes for Russia, like they didn't actually do it? They did, it's okay to admit it.

---

We (NATO) invaded and dismantled Yugoslavia, balkanized and gerrymandered it into several new countries like Kosovo because one party mistreated the other.

---

Yugoslavia was already breaking apart on its own and it was probably good to prevent the genocide/apartheid conditions of the Kosovars. Also quite notably, the US and/or NATO never attempted to absorb that territory into one of its existing nations, instead helping to set up a separate independent nation.

---

The US/NATO egged on the Muslim Bosnian separatists to reject peace treaties signed by the Serbs and Croats and secede, which led to a major civil war there.

---

The Croats were also already separating from the Serbs. As in Ukraine, the US/NATO certainly "encouraged" certain things but the local tensions were already going to exist anyway.

movielover said:

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Yugoslavia wasn't in NATO?

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Yugoslavia was non-aligned, not with NATO nor with the Warsaw Pact.

If Yugoslavia was still together, they would have won at least one soccer world cup and given the US a good run for its money in basketball, amazing athletic tradition blending eastern European rigor with southern European flair.

Trump was expert at that. Define "short".

Good hoopsters.

Cal88 said:

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movielover said:

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Yugoslavia wasn't in NATO?

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Yugoslavia was non-aligned, not with NATO nor with the Warsaw Pact.

If Yugoslavia was still together, they would have won at least one soccer world cup and given the US a good run for its money in basketball, amazing athletic tradition blending eastern European rigor with southern European flair.

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There's no way they would have stayed together. There's a reason "Balkanization" was a term before Yugoslavia or NATO ever existed.

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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movielover said:

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Yugoslavia wasn't in NATO?

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Yugoslavia was non-aligned, not with NATO nor with the Warsaw Pact.

If Yugoslavia was still together, they would have won at least one soccer world cup and given the US a good run for its money in basketball, amazing athletic tradition blending eastern European rigor with southern European flair.

---

There's no way they would have stayed together. There's a reason "Balkanization" was a term before Yugoslavia or NATO ever existed.

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Historically speaking, nations like Italy, France, Spain or Germany were as diverse and culturally fragmented as Yugoslavia was, but they were forged together by strong central governments or dynasties. Yugoslavia on the other hand was torn apart at least in part due to outside influences, which predate the formation of that state, as the area has been the buffer zone of several rival empires.

I don't trust Zelensky.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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movielover said:

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Yugoslavia wasn't in NATO?

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Yugoslavia was non-aligned, not with NATO nor with the Warsaw Pact.

If Yugoslavia was still together, they would have won at least one soccer world cup and given the US a good run for its money in basketball, amazing athletic tradition blending eastern European rigor with southern European flair.

---

There's no way they would have stayed together. There's a reason "Balkanization" was a term before Yugoslavia or NATO ever existed.

---

Historically speaking, nations like Italy, France, Spain or Germany were as diverse and culturally fragmented as Yugoslavia was, but they were forged together by strong central governments or dynasties. Yugoslavia on the other hand was torn apart at least in part due to outside influences, which predate the formation of that state, as the area has been the buffer zone of several rival empires.

---

I guess you can argue about the reasons, but it's been tried twice and those groups (Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, etc.) just haven't been able to hold together as one nation. They seem better off as separate countries. It's not like France or Germany never had outside influences trying to break them apart.

Deep State trying to scuttle Ukraine peace talks by leaking phone calls to Bloomberg. Still the biggest enemy of the United States is our own intelligence agencies.

Who is eavesdropping on Steve Witkoff's calls with Russian officials to end the war in Ukraine, then leaking them to Bloomberg?

It's the same thing the NSA did to Michael Flynn when he was negotiating with Russian officials. It's the most serious leaking crime in the US Code. https://t.co/qqpBk7BF9d

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) November 25, 2025

Is it a shock that people close to Trump advise those who negotiate with him to begin the conversation with an expression of praise? The more interesting story is the fact that someone is tapping & leaking Witkoff's phone calls to scuttle the peace deal. https://t.co/p5Aim1LgfN

— Lee Fang (@lhfang) November 25, 2025

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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movielover said:

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Yugoslavia wasn't in NATO?

---

Yugoslavia was non-aligned, not with NATO nor with the Warsaw Pact.

If Yugoslavia was still together, they would have won at least one soccer world cup and given the US a good run for its money in basketball, amazing athletic tradition blending eastern European rigor with southern European flair.

---

There's no way they would have stayed together. There's a reason "Balkanization" was a term before Yugoslavia or NATO ever existed.

---

Historically speaking, nations like Italy, France, Spain or Germany were as diverse and culturally fragmented as Yugoslavia was, but they were forged together by strong central governments or dynasties. Yugoslavia on the other hand was torn apart at least in part due to outside influences, which predate the formation of that state, as the area has been the buffer zone of several rival empires.

---

I guess you can argue about the reasons, but it's been tried twice and those groups (Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, etc.) just haven't been able to hold together as one nation. They seem better off as separate countries. It's not like France or Germany never had outside influences trying to break them apart.

---

We are kind of headed towards the same conclusion for Ukraine, with the Russian third splitting off from Ukraine, along with the Hungarian part (Transcarpathia) eventually going to Hungary. The northwest of Ukraine used to be mostly Polish but that population has long been ethnically cleansed.

Notice the double standard here between Yugoslavia and Ukraine in terms of concerns about territorial integrity.

The problem with Ukraine is that it has chosen an incredibly divisive national identity that marginalizes and antagonizes its sizeable Russian minority. A Kiev government that was going to elevate as its founding fathers figures like Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych was never going to be accepted by a third of the country.

The search for national reconciliation through a common national identity in Ukraine was the thesis of U of RI prof Nicolai Petro, a poli sci prof:

Quote:

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"I was troubled by how difficult it was for people to get along," he said. "I didn't understand why there was so much mutual hatred in the country," he said. "I was trying to understand these divisions, which used to be widely accepted among Ukrainian specialists. People were always talking about them when writing about Ukraine.

"Then there's the added question of why it became a military conflict," he added. "Once you go back in history, though, you see even that's not unusual. There's been infighting with large numbers of deaths between Eastern and Western Ukraine four times already. This is the fourth."

Petro suggests that classical Greek tragedy offers a way to overcome the civic conflict.
"Recurring conflict is as much a problem of the heart, as it is of institutions, and the enduring value of classical Greek tragedy is that it seeks to induce a change of heart, a catharsis," he said.

"Oedipus was blinded by his anger long before he laid hands upon himself, and only began to see truly when he lost his outward sight, and was forced to look inward. It is my hope that by drawing attention to the tragic cycle that entangles them, more Ukrainians will be encouraged to look inward. That is where they will find the compassion and forgiveness needed for reconciliation."

---

https://www.uri.edu/news/2022/12/uri-professors-new-book-looks-at-internal-divisions-in-ukraine-that-contributed-to-current-conflict-with-russia/

What happened to our leak investigations?

This is a real headline. It tells you everything you need to know about why the war pigs are terrified of peace. pic.twitter.com/axYBLs9zkH

— Thomas Fazi (@battleforeurope) November 25, 2025

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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They "invaded" bc they ignored Putin, overthrew the political leadership, inserted Victoria Nuland (aka Darth Vader) into the mix, put 12 CIA bases on Russias border, spent years planning to take Russian lands, and we're forcing NATO into Ukraine- a gard line for Russia. An existential threat.

---

Why does "invaded" always need to be in scare quotes for Russia, like they didn't actually do it? They did, it's okay to admit it.

---

We (NATO) invaded and dismantled Yugoslavia, balkanized and gerrymandered it into several new countries like Kosovo because one party mistreated the other.

---

Yugoslavia was already breaking apart on its own and it was probably good to prevent the genocide/apartheid conditions of the Kosovars. Also quite notably, the US and/or NATO never attempted to absorb that territory into one of its existing nations, instead helping to set up a separate independent nation.

Russia's claims against Ukraine have always been pretty heavily exaggerated or outright made-up, and they actually do want to absorb that territory for themselves. Quite different.

---

Putin88 routinely puts blame on America when other countries have civil wars. Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria.

dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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They "invaded" bc they ignored Putin, overthrew the political leadership, inserted Victoria Nuland (aka Darth Vader) into the mix, put 12 CIA bases on Russias border, spent years planning to take Russian lands, and we're forcing NATO into Ukraine- a gard line for Russia. An existential threat.

---

Why does "invaded" always need to be in scare quotes for Russia, like they didn't actually do it? They did, it's okay to admit it.

---

We (NATO) invaded and dismantled Yugoslavia, balkanized and gerrymandered it into several new countries like Kosovo because one party mistreated the other.

---

Yugoslavia was already breaking apart on its own and it was probably good to prevent the genocide/apartheid conditions of the Kosovars. Also quite notably, the US and/or NATO never attempted to absorb that territory into one of its existing nations, instead helping to set up a separate independent nation.

Russia's claims against Ukraine have always been pretty heavily exaggerated or outright made-up, and they actually do want to absorb that territory for themselves. Quite different.

---

Putin88 routinely puts blame on America when other countries have civil wars. Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria.

---

I look forward to your updates on the upcoming 100% organic "civil war" in Venezuela.

The Canadian ambassador to Yugoslavia also disagrees with your take about that country's civil war, see above..

Syria is a well-documented case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore

Up next: Lebanon.

The US amb in Lebanon, Lisa Johnson, is doing what Robert Ford did in Syria: promoting a bloody civil war to advance US and Israeli objectives in the region

She reportedly told local allies: "Israel cannot accomplish everything through military means alone. The time has come for… https://t.co/TPqy6PCkQJ

— Max Blumenthal (@MaxBlumenthal) October 30, 2024

dajo9 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

movielover said:

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They "invaded" bc they ignored Putin, overthrew the political leadership, inserted Victoria Nuland (aka Darth Vader) into the mix, put 12 CIA bases on Russias border, spent years planning to take Russian lands, and we're forcing NATO into Ukraine- a gard line for Russia. An existential threat.

---

Why does "invaded" always need to be in scare quotes for Russia, like they didn't actually do it? They did, it's okay to admit it.

---

We (NATO) invaded and dismantled Yugoslavia, balkanized and gerrymandered it into several new countries like Kosovo because one party mistreated the other.

---

Yugoslavia was already breaking apart on its own and it was probably good to prevent the genocide/apartheid conditions of the Kosovars. Also quite notably, the US and/or NATO never attempted to absorb that territory into one of its existing nations, instead helping to set up a separate independent nation.

Russia's claims against Ukraine have always been pretty heavily exaggerated or outright made-up, and they actually do want to absorb that territory for themselves. Quite different.

---

Putin88 routinely puts blame on America when other countries have civil wars. Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria.

---

And also never putting any blame on Russia for whatever part it may have had in stoking these conflicts (including the separatists in Ukraine).

But it's not just him. There's a kind of broad quasi-leftist school of thought out there that basically boils down all foreign conflict to "America Bad." In the Trump era they've picked up some vaguely anti-establishment followers on the right too. Sometimes they're right and sometimes not (sometimes America is bad), but it's always the reflexive opinion that is often not swayed by other evidence.

sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

---

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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They "invaded" bc they ignored Putin, overthrew the political leadership, inserted Victoria Nuland (aka Darth Vader) into the mix, put 12 CIA bases on Russias border, spent years planning to take Russian lands, and we're forcing NATO into Ukraine- a gard line for Russia. An existential threat.

---

Why does "invaded" always need to be in scare quotes for Russia, like they didn't actually do it? They did, it's okay to admit it.

---

We (NATO) invaded and dismantled Yugoslavia, balkanized and gerrymandered it into several new countries like Kosovo because one party mistreated the other.

---

Yugoslavia was already breaking apart on its own and it was probably good to prevent the genocide/apartheid conditions of the Kosovars. Also quite notably, the US and/or NATO never attempted to absorb that territory into one of its existing nations, instead helping to set up a separate independent nation.

Russia's claims against Ukraine have always been pretty heavily exaggerated or outright made-up, and they actually do want to absorb that territory for themselves. Quite different.

---

Putin88 routinely puts blame on America when other countries have civil wars. Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria.

---

And also never putting any blame on Russia for whatever part it may have had in stoking these conflicts (including the separatists in Ukraine).

But it's not just him. There's a kind of broad quasi-leftist school of thought out there that basically boils down all foreign conflict to "America Bad." In the Trump era they've picked up some vaguely anti-establishment followers on the right too. Sometimes they're right and sometimes not (sometimes America is bad), but it's always the reflexive opinion that is often not swayed by other evidence.

---

Russia was not a factor in Yugoslavia, which took place just as the USSR was collapsing, and not a factor in Libya either. They were however heavily involved in Syria, on the side of the government and against AQ/ISIS. The Russians in Ukraine would have far preferred to stay out and have the two parties abide by the Minsk Agreements.

The Russians are involved in many countries across the African Sahel. This being said, the Soviets were far more involved in foreign coups and interventions, notably in Afghanistan and of course in EE.

Ukrainian army recruiters order food in order to forcibly conscript delivery guys.

🇺🇦“Your lunch was mobilized” pic.twitter.com/1188XlovM5

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) November 25, 2025

Why Does Steve Witkoff Keep Taking Russia's Side? -

The Atlantic

https://share.google/OOXWyfKUkIE6iT1GC

DiabloWags said:

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Why Does Steve Witkoff Keep Taking Russia's Side? -

The Atlantic

https://share.google/OOXWyfKUkIE6iT1GC

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Anne Applebaum, what a joke!

Witkoff, contrary to those before him, starts out with positions based on reality, not ideology. You can't possibly start a peace process without taking in a modicum of the facts on the grounds and the basic reality of this conflict:

1- Russia is winning the war
2- Ukraine is slowly but surely being destroyed, 1.7 men killed, huge number of deserters, 40% of its truncated GDP in the form of EU/US aid, infrastructure ailing, 50% of the population outside the country, most Ukrainians no longer want to fight
3- Russia is never going to give back the territories it holds, and no army can make it
4- The Russian economy has held up pretty well nearly 4 years into this war

So for this war to stop, Ukraine has to:

1- Concede the 4 oblasts to Russia
2- Stay neutral
3- Demilitarize, negotiating the size of its army (50,000 was agreed upon in Istanbul in '22)
4- De-Banderize
5- Return Russia's money (US/Brussels) - negotiable, part of the $300B can go to reconstruction

Barring this, the war goes on, and Russia achieves its stretch goals, taking about twice as much territory (basically all the Russian-speaking regions) by force.

So how can any rational observer (not Anne Applebaum and co) criticize Witkoff for trying to make a serious attempt at this?

" A former NABU (National Anti-corruption Bureau of Ukraine) investigator has unveiled thousands of documents on the corruption of Zelensky and his entourage.

Elena K., a former NABU employee, has taken refuge in Europe and claims to hold thousands of pages of internal documents revealing the offshore schemes of Kyiv's elite.

According to her, Zelensky and his closest collaborators, Serhii Shefir, Tymur Mindich, Svitlana Pishchanska, and others, used a network of shell companies to acquire more than a hundred luxury properties abroad.

The total amount of laundered funds exceeded 1.2 billion dollars.

Among the assets:
- Spain: 26 properties (villas in Marbella, penthouses in Barcelona).
- United Kingdom: 14 properties (including the Chelsea Riverside estate).
- France: 21 properties on the Cte d'Azur.
- Italy: 8 properties.
- United Arab Emirates: 34 apartments.

Elena K. has provided sales contracts and bank transfers directly linking Zelensky's entourage to these assets.'

Une ancienne enquêteur du NABU a dévoilé des milliers de documents sur la corruption de Zelensky et de son entourage.

Elena K., ancienne employée du NABU, s'est réfugiée en Europe et a déclaré détenir des milliers de pages de documents internes révélant les stratagèmes offshore… pic.twitter.com/iUMEbTI027

— Guerre de l'info (@EricArchambau18) November 26, 2025

The well-known corruption surfaces.

BREAKING: Ukrainian anti-corruption authorities have conducted searches at the home of President Volodymyr Zelenskiy's chief of staff, Andriy Yermak.

— Election Wizard (@ElectionWiz) November 28, 2025

BREAKING: Golden toilet was found in the apartment of Zelensky’s top business partner, where secret meetings of the entire gang were held

It was bought using money from the US and EU.

Americans, Europeans, aren't you tired of this?

Conduct promised audit and put an end to it! pic.twitter.com/xkb7PbGvPB

— Diana Panchenko 🇺🇦 (@Panchenko_X) July 30, 2025

The golden toilet and golden bidet. Symbols of Ukraine corruption.

Soros and the 2nd most corrupt man in Ukraine pic.twitter.com/UIupC9lPk2

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 28, 2025

Alex Soros is everywhere, always in pictures, but he's never acknowledged publicly by the Democrats.

He's a Cal alum that deserves more recognition!

Now married to Ms. Weiner.

PAC-10-BEAR said:

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BREAKING: Golden toilet was found in the apartment of Zelensky’s top business partner, where secret meetings of the entire gang were held

It was bought using money from the US and EU.

Americans, Europeans, aren't you tired of this?

Conduct promised audit and put an end to it! pic.twitter.com/xkb7PbGvPB

— Diana Panchenko 🇺🇦 (@Panchenko_X) July 30, 2025

The golden toilet and golden bidet. Symbols of Ukraine corruption.

---

Our crooked Congress, in on the theft, voted for this. How much graft comes back to them?

THEY LINED IT UP TO NOT HAVE INSPECTOR GENERAL OVERSIGHT!

movielover said:

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Now married to Ms. Weiner.

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The ex-wife of the former congressman who did prison time for exposing his wiener to an underage girl?

movielover said:

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PAC-10-BEAR said:

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The golden toilet and golden bidet. Symbols of Ukraine corruption.

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Our crooked Congress, in on the theft, voted for this. How much graft comes back to them?

THEY LINED IT UP TO NOT HAVE INSPECTOR GENERAL OVERSIGHT!

---

"We're going to do golden toilets."

With the still undisclosed sticky-hot laptop held by the FBI.

President Zelensky's chief of staff resigns after Ukraine anti-corruption police raids his home.https://t.co/LYYZMzzPMk

— CNN (@CNN) November 28, 2025

2014 Hunter Biden goes to Ukraine and the story just goes to **** from there.

Bravo to CNN for finally catching on to the story a decade and billions of dollars later....

PROFESSOR SACHS: Zelensky is part of a massive, massive corruption scandal. A lot of money was being made on this war by Zelensky and his henchmen.

pic.twitter.com/6XvfLuXFrK

— Election Wizard (@ElectionWiz) November 29, 2025

The Hunter Biden laptop cover up stands as the most brazen and the most successful cover up in modern history. The morning the New York Post published the story, any sane observer would have assumed Joe Biden was finished. There in plain sight was more than anyone could ever… https://t.co/gVmi00uwt9

— Hans Mahncke (@HansMahncke) November 29, 2025

There in plain sight was more than anyone could ever need, a sprawling archive of Biden family corruption and smoking gun evidence that Joe Biden had lied about all of it. It was a once in a century jackpot of opposition research.

Yet as the following days made painfully clear, none of it mattered. The media, the establishment and the intelligence services moved in perfect coordination to recast the entire scandal as a Russian plot, even though every one of them knew the laptop was real. The result was that Joe Biden and his autopen army of left wing activists were given four uninterrupted years to wreak havoc from the most powerful office in the world.

It remains astonishing that it happened, and even more astonishing that no one has faced any consequences.

I would add that when Ukraine collapses--as so many in the west warned would happen if Ukraine continued its dalliance with NATO--Ukraine's "supporters" will never accept the reality of what they've caused, and instead propagate a new lie, this one about how the west forced… https://t.co/t94KkqK9L1

— Barry Eisler (@barryeisler) November 29, 2025

Quote:

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I would add that when Ukraine collapses--as so many in the west warned would happen if Ukraine continued its dalliance with NATO--Ukraine's "supporters" will never accept the reality of what they've caused, and instead propagate a new lie, this one about how the west forced Ukraine to fight with one arm tied behind its back (see also America's reckoning with its defeat by Vietnam) etc.

Truth isn't only the first casualty of war--the assault on truth continues long after the war itself is lost.

---

Never underestimate the absolute stupidity of our rulers. They ain't know jack shit. This broad could be the assistant manager down at the Tom Thumb or in charge of getting you into a war with a thermonuclear weapons state. https://t.co/AFa6n3MlNV

— Scott Horton (@scotthortonshow) November 29, 2025

DiabloWags said:

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Why Does Steve Witkoff Keep Taking Russia's Side? -

The Atlantic

https://share.google/OOXWyfKUkIE6iT1GC

---

Steve Witkoff is getting maligned as a traitor for "coaching" a Putin aide on how to approach Trump. But this March, Keith Kellogg told ABC News that he and 13 senators coached Zelensky on how to approach Trump before the disastrous blowup in the Oval Office. pic.twitter.com/RbM0aPeRP2

— Andrew Day (@AKDay89) November 28, 2025