BearForce2 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Greenwald goes on the traitor list for sure. I was glad to see this accountability from Taibbi, as I still had some lingering respect for him.

---

How do you choose? Greenwald goes on Tucker's show and Taibbi on Rogan's show. Plus, Taibbi was very big on Russia collusion being a hoax from the very beginning.

---

I don't know why you think this has anything to do with who goes on what show. It's about who continues to blame the West for Putin's actions, even now. That's the Kremlin's propaganda line and no one in America has any good reason to spread it.

dimitrig said:

---

I find it hard to believe some people will be going through those same things in a relatively modern country like Ukraine in 2022.

---

I enjoyed your post too. So many of us have been impacted by our family's past and the echo of which we see today.

As to "relatively modern," that is one of the things that struck me most in Ukraine. When in Lviv it was truly the "Paris of the East." It was stunningly beautiful and with so much arts and culture and cuisine...and technology.

Not all of Ukraine is Lviv, but that city had infrastructure that was very very modern that in many way exceeded our cities.The lives Ukrainians have built since USSR and in commerce with the EU is not Second World. They are an emerging democratic, capitalist nation that needs additional support and hand-holding as it breaks away from the past. The young adults carrying the cell phones and launching businesses there have never known Russian rule or the tyranny of totalitarianism. It is tantamount to our TikTok generation, in say Denver, suddenly being subjugated by a military authority with secret police that takes over their life from Canada--it is unfathomable and we shouldn't somehow think these people are "other" or used to oppression or open to Russian rule.

German Chancellor Schiolz has announced that Germany is dropping its historic position of not providing lethal military aid to conflict zones. Germany will provide 1,000 anti-tank weapons and 500 Stinger missles.

Russian tanks enter the Ukraine and arent sure what to do or who to fight.
Looks like the Russians are having some problems that they didnt anticipate.
One-third of these soldiers are young draftees, and some are wondering why they are there.

A senior U.S. official told ABC News they've heard a Russian soldier on a radio call saying,
"We don't know who to shoot -- they all look like us."

Increasingly worried for friends and relatives in Ukraine. No communication from them in past two days.

DiabloWags said:

---

Russian tanks enter the Ukraine and arent sure what to do or who to fight.

---

Just FYI, it should be "Ukraine" and not "the Ukraine." Adding the article is more of an invention from the Soviet era.

https://time.com/12597/the-ukraine-or-ukraine/?amp=true

I know it's hard to believe somebody would post this but here is Wendy Rogers, the Republican state Senator from Arizona

Zelensky is a globalist puppet for Soros and the Clintons.

— Wendy Rogers (@WendyRogersAZ) February 27, 2022

Here is her MAGA twitter bio:

Quote:

---

AZ State Senator. Conservative America First Pro-Trump Republican in #LD6. Air Force pilot, biz entrepreneur, homeschool mom. #MAGA #AmericaFirst

---

Dinesh D'Souza, who was pardoned by Trump

Televangelist Pat Robertson came out of retirement on Monday to declare that Russian President Vladimir Putin is following God’s wishes by violently invading Ukraine, insisting this is a step towards a global “End Times” battle in Israel. https://t.co/ydJtwiKnV4

— The Daily Beast (@thedailybeast) February 28, 2022

sycasey said:

---

Televangelist Pat Robertson came out of retirement on Monday to declare that Russian President Vladimir Putin is following God’s wishes by violently invading Ukraine, insisting this is a step towards a global “End Times” battle in Israel. https://t.co/ydJtwiKnV4

— The Daily Beast (@thedailybeast) February 28, 2022

---

…..and Baby Billy and the rest of the Gemstones are pretty jacked about that news.



Even the Rev. Jim Bakker took time out from his busy schedule selling Covid cures to give his best wishes to Putin and his cluster bomb campaign against Ukrainian civilians.



…and last, but not least, Jerry & Becki Falwell took a break from sex addiction rehab to start a GoFundMe for the Wagner Group and the Chechen Hunters currently tracking President Zelinsky and the Klitschko brothers.


*That twinkle in ole Becki's eyes means one thing: "Go Time!"

Steven Seagal says both sides of Ukraine war are 'one family'



https://mol.im/a/10564153

*Chuck Norris once called this tub of guts a fraud that always filmed fight scenes close up to obscure his lack of technique.

posted here in the Traitors thread, as Putin is a traitor to his fellow countrymen.


Vlad, you're done. Sign here.

Mar 1
To: President Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin
From: Michael "Moorovich" Moore, Interim Negotiator for Ukraine
Subject: Your Surrender

Mr. President:
Now that your attempt to seize the nation of Ukraine is beginning to unravel with your richest oligarchs, Oleg and Mikhail, demanding an "end to bloodshed" and "peace now"; the always neutral Switzerland now freezing your money, something that they wouldn't even do to Hitler; tens of thousands of young Russians demonstrating against your war all across Russia; and the Russian army now finding itself lost and broken-down on the road to Kyiv (and discovering why the Ukrainian Army is the second largest in Europe) you must see the writing on the wall. The entire world has abandoned you, they won't let Aeroflot fly over their countries, they've cut you off financially and now you've just been booted out of this year's World Cup.
And the Associated Press has shown these photos to the world of the damage your missiles did on Sunday when fired into a Ukrainian market: You killed this little 6-year old girl:
(series of photos omitted)

As your descent into Hell seems to be happening quicker than anyone imagined, and because Ukrainian President Zelensky is very busy right now trying to kill as many Russians as possible, I have made an offer to him, as a fellow satirist and occasional TV star, to step in and negotiate your surrender. This won't take long. We don't even need to sit at one of your 155-foot long conference tables, you paranoid ****. (Oh - sorry. I take that back. I forgot you still have nukes pointed at us! My bad! You are a strong man, with a strong chest!)

You may not remember me. We've met twice once in Dresden in 1989 when you were stationed there, and again in 1993 when I hopped on the stage in Moscow while Yeltsin was giving one of his drunken speeches and you were in charge of "security." I simply interrupted him, took the mic, and started making my own speech and you, Mr. Security, did nothing! I knew you were a loser then, and I know it today. (Oops. I did it again! Sorry! Nice chest!)

Back to the terms of your surrender. I'll make it simple. Have your army return to Russia. End all threats and aggression to Ukraine. Then step down. And leave the country. We have found only one country who will let you live there in exile: Belarus! The only other European country that's a dictatorship. You'll feel right at home. I've found a lovely place for you to live there. It looks like a wee Kremlin so you'll feel even more at home.

Unfortunately, the billions you stole from the Russian people will have to stay in Russia.
Now, in the coming days, your army will indeed have some dramatic successes with whatever rocket launchers that still work. It will seem like you are going to win. You won't. There is so much stink around what you've done, how would you ever even define a "victory?" That you now get to "own" a country that's larger in landmass than Germany and Great Britain combined when you can't even run your own? It's lose-lose, Mr. President.

That's why you must sign these terms of surrender. You have no choice. Don't worry the worst that will happen to you is that you will be paraded through the streets of Kyiv on a leash by that nun from Game of Thrones, ringing her large handbell behind your shriveled naked body, and shouting so all can hear:
"SHAME!
SHAME!
SHAME!"
Enjoy your life in Belarus!
Michael Moore


STATEMENT of SURRENDER
I, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, do hereby resign as President of Russia and all of its 1,100 I-Hop franchises.
Regretfully,

sycasey said:

---

Televangelist Pat Robertson came out of retirement on Monday to declare that Russian President Vladimir Putin is following God’s wishes by violently invading Ukraine, insisting this is a step towards a global “End Times” battle in Israel. https://t.co/ydJtwiKnV4

— The Daily Beast (@thedailybeast) February 28, 2022

---

Rather than retirement, I think he came out of the crypt

concordtom said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Televangelist Pat Robertson came out of retirement on Monday to declare that Russian President Vladimir Putin is following God’s wishes by violently invading Ukraine, insisting this is a step towards a global “End Times” battle in Israel. https://t.co/ydJtwiKnV4

— The Daily Beast (@thedailybeast) February 28, 2022

---

Rather than retirement, I think he came out of the crypt

---

Maybe he's right.
There IS life after death - if you believe!!

concordtom said:

---

Maybe he's right.
There IS life after death - if you believe!!

---

No one knows for sure, either way, so….

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

---

except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

MinotStateBeav said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

---

except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

---

True enough. Trump is notorious for advocating for both sides of nearly every issue at different times.

Biden was Ukraine's viceroy, designated by Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to be the point guy to "shepherd" the U.S./NATO/EU coup aftermath. Having son Hunter accept the offer of a BoD seat for Burisma was corrupt, and "bad optics" at best, but not illegal.

However, it does illustrate the degree to which the U.S. was involved in the 2014 Ukraine coup and its aftermath.

cbbass1 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

---

except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

---

True enough. Trump is notorious for advocating for both sides of nearly every issue at different times.

Biden was Ukraine's viceroy, designated by Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to be the point guy to "shepherd" the U.S./NATO/EU coup aftermath. Having son Hunter accept the offer of a BoD seat for Burisma was corrupt, and "bad optics" at best, but not illegal.

However, it does illustrate the degree to which the U.S. was involved in the 2014 Ukraine coup and its aftermath.

---

There was no NATO coup. Ukraine's population threw out its own government.

sycasey said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

---

except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

---

True enough. Trump is notorious for advocating for both sides of nearly every issue at different times.

Biden was Ukraine's viceroy, designated by Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to be the point guy to "shepherd" the U.S./NATO/EU coup aftermath. Having son Hunter accept the offer of a BoD seat for Burisma was corrupt, and "bad optics" at best, but not illegal.

However, it does illustrate the degree to which the U.S. was involved in the 2014 Ukraine coup and its aftermath.

---

There was no NATO coup. Ukraine's population threw out its own government.

---

These guys live in a fantasyland

sycasey said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

---

except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

---

True enough. Trump is notorious for advocating for both sides of nearly every issue at different times.

Biden was Ukraine's viceroy, designated by Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to be the point guy to "shepherd" the U.S./NATO/EU coup aftermath. Having son Hunter accept the offer of a BoD seat for Burisma was corrupt, and "bad optics" at best, but not illegal.

However, it does illustrate the degree to which the U.S. was involved in the 2014 Ukraine coup and its aftermath.

---

There was no NATO coup. Ukraine's population threw out its own government.

---

So who called in the snipers to kill both protesters AND the pro-Yanukovich/Russia police?

cbbass1 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

---

except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

---

True enough. Trump is notorious for advocating for both sides of nearly every issue at different times.

Biden was Ukraine's viceroy, designated by Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to be the point guy to "shepherd" the U.S./NATO/EU coup aftermath. Having son Hunter accept the offer of a BoD seat for Burisma was corrupt, and "bad optics" at best, but not illegal.

However, it does illustrate the degree to which the U.S. was involved in the 2014 Ukraine coup and its aftermath.

---

There was no NATO coup. Ukraine's population threw out its own government.

---

So who called in the snipers to kill both protesters AND the pro-Yanukovich/Russia police?

---

Most likely the government at the time called in snipers to quell the protests. No one claims they would all be good shots. Do you have evidence it was done by the US or other NATO allies?

Ukrainians Just Thankful That They Didn't Have To Go Through January 6th https://t.co/3A1U0M0Qey

— The Babylon Bee (@TheBabylonBee) March 4, 2022

sycasey said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

---

except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

---

True enough. Trump is notorious for advocating for both sides of nearly every issue at different times.

Biden was Ukraine's viceroy, designated by Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to be the point guy to "shepherd" the U.S./NATO/EU coup aftermath. Having son Hunter accept the offer of a BoD seat for Burisma was corrupt, and "bad optics" at best, but not illegal.

However, it does illustrate the degree to which the U.S. was involved in the 2014 Ukraine coup and its aftermath.

---

There was no NATO coup. Ukraine's population threw out its own government.

---

So who called in the snipers to kill both protesters AND the pro-Yanukovich/Russia police?

---

Most likely the government at the time called in snipers to quell the protests. No one claims they would all be good shots. Do you have evidence it was done by the US or other NATO allies?

---

Nothing direct; but the chaos caused by the snipers accelerated the process of getting Yanukovich out, and Yatsenyuk in, along with Tyahnybok, who led the Svoboda party of "ultranationalists", which included the neo-Nazi militias. The end result was exactly as Nuland laid it out in her phone call with U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt.

Coincidence? Probably not.

cbbass1 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

---

except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

---

True enough. Trump is notorious for advocating for both sides of nearly every issue at different times.

Biden was Ukraine's viceroy, designated by Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to be the point guy to "shepherd" the U.S./NATO/EU coup aftermath. Having son Hunter accept the offer of a BoD seat for Burisma was corrupt, and "bad optics" at best, but not illegal.

However, it does illustrate the degree to which the U.S. was involved in the 2014 Ukraine coup and its aftermath.

---

There was no NATO coup. Ukraine's population threw out its own government.

---

So who called in the snipers to kill both protesters AND the pro-Yanukovich/Russia police?

---

Most likely the government at the time called in snipers to quell the protests. No one claims they would all be good shots. Do you have evidence it was done by the US or other NATO allies?

---

Nothing direct; but the chaos caused by the snipers accelerated the process of getting Yanukovich out, and Yatsenyuk in, along with Tyahnybok, who led the Svoboda party of "ultranationalists", which included the neo-Nazi militias. The end result was exactly as Nuland laid it out in her phone call with U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt.

Coincidence? Probably not.

---

So in other words, a US government official made a correct prediction about what would happen in Ukraine's revolution and this is evidence of their guilt?

Does this mean Joe Biden is behind Russia invading Ukraine right now? After all, he predicted it would happen!

Hillary Clinton was the sniper. There. Now you know everything.

sycasey said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

---

except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

---

True enough. Trump is notorious for advocating for both sides of nearly every issue at different times.

Biden was Ukraine's viceroy, designated by Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to be the point guy to "shepherd" the U.S./NATO/EU coup aftermath. Having son Hunter accept the offer of a BoD seat for Burisma was corrupt, and "bad optics" at best, but not illegal.

However, it does illustrate the degree to which the U.S. was involved in the 2014 Ukraine coup and its aftermath.

---

There was no NATO coup. Ukraine's population threw out its own government.

---

Just like Jan 6 was no coup attempt, right? Just the population trying to throw out a corrupt election?

sycasey said:

---

BearForce2 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Greenwald goes on the traitor list for sure. I was glad to see this accountability from Taibbi, as I still had some lingering respect for him.

---

How do you choose? Greenwald goes on Tucker's show and Taibbi on Rogan's show. Plus, Taibbi was very big on Russia collusion being a hoax from the very beginning.

---

I don't know why you think this has anything to do with who goes on what show. It's about who continues to blame the West for Putin's actions, even now. That's the Kremlin's propaganda line and no one in America has any good reason to spread it.

---

The west deserves blame for this outcome right alongside Putin. Saying so isn't Kremlin propaganda, it's the reasonable conclusion from an honest account of the facts. Unfortunately a great many Americans are mindless partisans reflexively devoted to ultranationalism over truth or peace.

kal kommie said:

---

The west deserves blame for this outcome right alongside Putin. Saying so isn't Kremlin propaganda

---

Yes it is.

The West deserves plenty of blame for plenty of things. This invasion of Ukraine is not one.

If you want to blame us for something, IMO it would be not having a good Marshall Plan type approach to Russia after the USSR fell apart. Instead we just assumed "democracy" would save them and let them get overrun by corrupt capitalists while in a weakened state. But there are several steps between that and invading neighboring countries.

kal kommie said:

---

sycasey said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

---

except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

---

True enough. Trump is notorious for advocating for both sides of nearly every issue at different times.

Biden was Ukraine's viceroy, designated by Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to be the point guy to "shepherd" the U.S./NATO/EU coup aftermath. Having son Hunter accept the offer of a BoD seat for Burisma was corrupt, and "bad optics" at best, but not illegal.

However, it does illustrate the degree to which the U.S. was involved in the 2014 Ukraine coup and its aftermath.

---

There was no NATO coup. Ukraine's population threw out its own government.

---

Just like Jan 6 was no coup attempt, right? Just the population trying to throw out a corrupt election?

---

Hang on. It may well be fair to describe the 2014 Ukrainian government overthrow as a coup*, but that's not my main point here. My main point is that there's no evidence NATO or the US was behind it. Notice I said "no NATO coup."

*That said, I'm not sure you can fairly describe that 2014 overthrow of Yanukovych as a "coup" regardless of who did it. As far as I can tell, there were protests, some of them violent, but then the President was ousted by a vote of Parliament. They had a temporary government for a time, and then a new election that allowed the people to choose the new President. If you call this a "coup" then you'd have to call an impeachment of the US President a coup, despite it following the process laid out in our Constitution. I don't think that's a coup.

sycasey said:

---

kal kommie said:

---

The west deserves blame for this outcome right alongside Putin. Saying so isn't Kremlin propaganda

---

Yes it is.

The West deserves plenty of blame for plenty of things. This invasion of Ukraine is not one.

---

The US pursued this outcome through 30 years of internal interference in Ukraine with the purpose of pulling them from the Russian orbit to the western bloc. This interference included billions spent on "democracy building" (ie funding party building, lobbying, NGOs, activists, and "independent" media), billions in military aid, training for Ukrainian military units, including the infamous neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, US cooperation in political persecution of pro-Russian Ukrainian leaders, and direct participation of US officials in Ukrainian domestic politics.

The interference went into overdrive in 2013/2014 with direct US participation in Euromaidan and the 2014 coup, which caused the civil war in Donbas. Even after all of that, peace was still possible if the US would have accepted a formal agreement for the military neutralization of Ukraine and settlement of the Donbas on some variation of the Minsk protocols.

You're responsible for the foreseeable outcome of your actions. This outcome was totally foreseeable, but as usual US policymakers prefer conflict over accommodation. So Ukraine will be wrecked, Russia will suffer solitary confinement, Europe will be choked of energy and raw materials, and the sociopaths in Washington will laugh while willfully blind partisans in the domestic population bleat the chorus fed to them through mass media.

The happiest people in the world are in the Biden administration because they get to be a war-time administration now. Distract America from domestic ills, boost their flagging approval ratings, pump the military-industrial complex and rally its flagging Euro alliance.

sycasey said:

---

kal kommie said:

---

sycasey said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Do you think Russia would have invaded if Trump was still President?

I don't think so, because Trump is just as crazy as Putin.

Besides, Trump would sing Putin's praises.

---

You've got to be kidding.
Trump was constantly bashing NATO and looking to dismantle it.

---

Go on YouTube & watch some of those group photo-ops! Trump was like a fish out of water, desperately trying to strike up a conversation with anyone who would give him the time of day. Pathetic. Everyone knew he was there to advocate for Putin's interests against NATO, but he was completely incapable of articulating them.

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except he wasn't? Trump had harsher sanctions on Russia than Obama did. We won't talk about how Biden's son was profiting off Ukrainian oil money to influence dear old dad.

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True enough. Trump is notorious for advocating for both sides of nearly every issue at different times.

Biden was Ukraine's viceroy, designated by Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to be the point guy to "shepherd" the U.S./NATO/EU coup aftermath. Having son Hunter accept the offer of a BoD seat for Burisma was corrupt, and "bad optics" at best, but not illegal.

However, it does illustrate the degree to which the U.S. was involved in the 2014 Ukraine coup and its aftermath.

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There was no NATO coup. Ukraine's population threw out its own government.

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Just like Jan 6 was no coup attempt, right? Just the population trying to throw out a corrupt election?

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Hang on. It may well be fair to describe the 2014 Ukrainian government overthrow as a coup*, but that's not my main point here. My main point is that there's no evidence NATO or the US was behind it. Notice I said "no NATO coup."

*That said, I'm not sure you can fairly describe that 2014 overthrow of Yanukovych as a "coup" regardless of who did it. As far as I can tell, there were protests, some of them violent, but then the President was ousted by a vote of Parliament. They had a temporary government for a time, and then a new election that allowed the people to choose the new President. If you call this a "coup" then you'd have to call an impeachment of the US President a coup, despite it following the process laid out in our Constitution. I don't think that's a coup.

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Of course it was a coup. Just like in the US, the Ukrainian parliament can't constitutionally oust a president by a simple legislative vote. Their constitution has an impeachment procedure that requires a 75% vote for removal. They didn't have the votes for impeachment so they just passed an ordinary resolution declaring Yanukovych deposed and installed a temporary government.

All of this was made possible by the Maidan uprising, which not only has US fingerprints all over it (the parties, NGOs, activists and media leading it had US ties and funding), it also had overt US participation with sitting US senators and state department officials giving speeches supporting the protestors and taking meetings with their leaders. There's even the leaked call between the State Dept and the US ambassador planning the post-coup government weeks before the unconstitutional parliament vote.

If you can't accept this as conclusive evidence of US participation in a coup which is unquestionably aligned with its foreign policy interest then you're placing an unreasonable standard of evidence that can only be met when documents are declassified decades after an event and when assessments can no longer have any practical effect on the matter.

It's not necessary to say this was exclusively a US or NATO coup. Obviously there's an authentic domestic Ukrainian component in play here too, just as there always is in all the other regime change ops the US has conducted since the start of the Cold War.

kal kommie said:

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Of course it was a coup. Just like in the US, the Ukrainian parliament can't constitutionally oust a president by a simple legislative vote. Their constitution has an impeachment procedure that requires a 75% vote for removal. They didn't have the votes for impeachment so they just passed an ordinary resolution declaring Yanukovych deposed and installed a temporary government.

All of this was made possible by the Maidan uprising, which not only has US fingerprints all over it (the parties, NGOs, activists and media leading it had US ties and funding), it also had overt US participation with sitting US senators and state department officials giving speeches supporting the protestors and taking meetings with their leaders. There's even the leaked call between the State Dept and the US ambassador planning the post-coup government weeks before the unconstitutional parliament vote.

If you can't accept this as conclusive evidence of US participation in a coup which is unquestionably aligned with its foreign policy interest then you're placing an unreasonable standard of evidence that can only be met when documents are declassified decades after an event and when assessments can no longer have any practical effect on the matter.

It's not necessary to say this was exclusively a US or NATO coup. Obviously there's an authentic domestic Ukrainian component in play here too, just as there always is in all the other regime change ops the US has conducted since the start of the Cold War.

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May I ask your expertise on this subject? Have you travelled to Ukraine or Russia? Are you a political scientist or historian? Work in intelligence?

What you are writing is appearing in a lot of right-wing news streams. Where exactly did you garner these opinions? Your summary, like a lot of spin, has a truthiness to it, but completely mischaracterizes the context, and the final conclusion is more harmful than informative, and essentially becomes Russian propaganda in how it soft pedals their exclusive culpability for war crimes being committed right now and a direct assault on democracy while pointing fingers elsewhere in the West. I just have to wonder what is your ultimate point? What are you ultimately advocating? Those who disagree with you are not ultranationalist. That is absurd. Most progressives stand with Ukraine and are very wary of nationalism, but they know tyranny and fascism when they see it, and want to stand with the peoples of a democracy. I have very personal connections and understanding of this war, and I find your kind of "objective" analysis poorly drawn, insensitive, and wholly unnecessary.

Have you watched Winter on Fire which is streaming free on Netflix right now?