Reposted from earlier today:

Actually, the Second Circuit Court determined in 2019 that "Congress specified the fiscal agency relationship for the purpose of putting the (Federal Reserve Banks) under the direction of the Treasury Department in certain limited circumstances"

By claiming that the coin has not been issued yet, then refusing to accept it, the Federal Reserve is also interfering with the issuance of a coin. They are not allowed to do so given that they are an agent of the Treasury Dept.

Janet Yellen has told the WSJ that the Fed wouldn't back the "Mint the Coin" plan because it appears to be a "gimmick". She said that the "Fed is not required to accept it, there's no requirement on the part of the Fed. It's up to them what to do."

Something tells me that Miss Yellen is playing "dumb" on this and doing some political posturing for the Administration.

No one wants to see this go before a Court.

Wow, now it has come down to non-lawyers assessing case law that they never probably read.

Maybe this is a reference to the Wells Fargo case in 2019 by the Second Circuit Court. Maybe not. But if it is, this is the danger of folks who are not experts in a field acting as one.

Just to give people some background on the case, in case there is a confusion. The case revolved around whether the False Claims Act, which is a federal crime to defraud government agencies, often used when there is fraud attempted on a federal agency such as overbilling the government, applies when someone attempts fraud against a federal reserve bank. The argument was that, because the federal reserve employees are not employees of the federal government, False Claim Act does not apply to the fraud attempt against the federal reserve bank.

The court held that, while employees of the federal reserve are not government employees, the False Claims Act (FCA) does apply when there is banking fraud attempted against the federal reserve. But here is the more relevant holding:

"Thus, the opinion that follows is narrowly focused on the FCA (False Claims Act) and our analysis may not be relevant to questions involving the status of the FRB (Federal Reserve Bank) in other context."

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca2/18-1746/18-1746-2019-11-21.html

That's funny.

Yellen says the U.S. has enough money until JUNE 5.

Treasury extends potential debt default deadline to June 5 (yahoo.com)

calbear93 said:

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Wow, now it has come down to non-lawyers assessing caselaw that they never probably read.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca2/18-1746/18-1746-2019-11-21.html

That's funny.

---

Yup.
Sounds like you picked the wrong case.
Now that's funny!

Keep digging.

DiabloWags said:

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calbear93 said:

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Wow, now it has come down to non-lawyers assessing caselaw that they never probably read.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca2/18-1746/18-1746-2019-11-21.html

That's funny.

---

Yup.
Sounds like you picked the wrong case.
Now that's funny!

---

Sure, then post the case law. Let's see how great you are at playing lawyer and acting like an expert.

Sure you weren't talking about the Wells Fargo case that include exactly what you quoted but held the opposite of what you think it does.

https://www.dinsmore.com/publications/2nd-circuit-holds-fed-banks-are-government-entities-for-fca-purposes-revives-qui-tam-suit-against-wells-fargo/

calbear93 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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calbear93 said:

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Wow, now it has come down to non-lawyers assessing caselaw that they never probably read.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca2/18-1746/18-1746-2019-11-21.html

That's funny.

---

Yup.
Sounds like you picked the wrong case.
Now that's funny!

---

Sure, then post the case law. Let's see how great you are at playing lawyer and acting like an expert.

Sure you weren't talking about the Wells Fargo case that include exactly what you quoted but held the opposite of what you think it does.

https://www.dinsmore.com/publications/2nd-circuit-holds-fed-banks-are-government-entities-for-fca-purposes-revives-qui-tam-suit-against-wells-fargo/

---

I've got better things to do with my time as the upcoming 3-day weekend kicks off.
Am heading up to Sacramento to watch the NCAA Western Regionals in Track & Field that start at 5pm
But feel free to keep "digging".

DiabloWags said:

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calbear93 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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calbear93 said:

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Wow, now it has come down to non-lawyers assessing caselaw that they never probably read.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca2/18-1746/18-1746-2019-11-21.html

That's funny.

---

Yup.
Sounds like you picked the wrong case.
Now that's funny!

---

Sure, then post the case law. Let's see how great you are at playing lawyer and acting like an expert.

Sure you weren't talking about the Wells Fargo case that include exactly what you quoted but held the opposite of what you think it does.

https://www.dinsmore.com/publications/2nd-circuit-holds-fed-banks-are-government-entities-for-fca-purposes-revives-qui-tam-suit-against-wells-fargo/

---

I've got better things to do with my time as the upcoming 3-day weekend kicks off.
Am heading up to Sacramento to watch the NCAA Western Regionals in Track & Field at 5PM
But feel free to keep "digging".

---

That's funny. Someone who spends every waking hour here now is too busy to back up his failed attempt at acting like some experts to mock others.

Fail.

calbear93 said:

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That's funny. Someone who spends every waking our here now is too busy to back up his failed attempt at acting like some experts to mock others.

Fail.

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I must admit, you're really good at arguing with total strangers on the internet and playing "victim" when it comes to personal attacks.... but as soon as you come back to bearinsider you hypocritically make . . . personal attacks.

Your ego gets the best of you quite often.
Perhaps you're lonely.

Have a nice weekend arguing with strangers.
I'm sure you'll have "good" company with the likes of Bearhunter and Movielover and Oski003.

DiabloWags said:

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calbear93 said:

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That's funny. Someone who spends every waking our here now is too busy to back up his failed attempt at acting like some experts to mock others.

Fail.

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I must admit, you're really good at arguing with total strangers on the internet and playing "victim" when it comes to personal attacks.... but as soon as you come back to bearinsider you hypocritically make . . . personal attacks.

Your ego gets the best of you quite often.
Perhaps you're lonely.

Have a nice weekend arguing with strangers.
I'm sure you'll have "good" company with the likes of Bearhunter and Movielover and Oski003.

---

You are funny.

I have never met anyone with so little self-awareness and confidence and yet dripping with false arrogance as you.

The fact that you wrote what you wrote arguing with me on a weekend but acting as if you are mocking me for participating is the epitome of the stupidity of most your posts. And if I recall, you argue with those three (and Oski003 is a much more informed poster than you, in case you are wondering) than I do. So maybe all this is your confessional as someone addicted to this site.

You are really funny.

Bye now.

calbear93 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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calbear93 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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calbear93 said:

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Wow, now it has come down to non-lawyers assessing caselaw that they never probably read.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca2/18-1746/18-1746-2019-11-21.html

That's funny.

---

Yup.
Sounds like you picked the wrong case.
Now that's funny!

---

Sure, then post the case law. Let's see how great you are at playing lawyer and acting like an expert.

Sure you weren't talking about the Wells Fargo case that include exactly what you quoted but held the opposite of what you think it does.

https://www.dinsmore.com/publications/2nd-circuit-holds-fed-banks-are-government-entities-for-fca-purposes-revives-qui-tam-suit-against-wells-fargo/

---

I've got better things to do with my time as the upcoming 3-day weekend kicks off.
Am heading up to Sacramento to watch the NCAA Western Regionals in Track & Field at 5PM
But feel free to keep "digging".

---

That's funny. Someone who spends every waking hour here now is too busy to back up his failed attempt at acting like some experts to mock others.

Fail.

---

He is all hat, no cattle.

MMT people are the most clear thinking about the debt ceiling because they recognize a lot of the silliness around public finance in a big country like ours.

As Donald Trump said, "This is the United States government. First of all, you never have to default because you print the money"

To paraphrase Layne Staley, "(our) pain is self chosen".

With notable exceptions, coverage of the debt ceiling debacle has been incomplete (at best) and dishonest (at worst). 1/

— Stephanie Kelton (@StephanieKelton) May 26, 2023

What Did WarRoom Tell You—
1 June Was a Lie… https://t.co/DIKR8rgMiW

— Steve Bannon (News) (@BannonSteveNews) May 26, 2023

So Janet Yellen just revealed to us that June 1 was just an arbitrary date.

BearHunter said:

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What Did WarRoom Tell You—
1 June Was a Lie… https://t.co/DIKR8rgMiW

— VIRAL MAGA NEWS (@BannonSteveNews) May 26, 2023

So Janet Yellen just revealed to us that June 1 was just an arbitrary date.

---

4 days. Big deal. My future paychecks are still going to be on indefinite hold, but I'm still expected to show up for work as normal.

Debt ceiling deal reached.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/27/us/politics/debt-limit-deal.html

Goldener Bar said:

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Debt ceiling deal reached.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/27/us/politics/debt-limit-deal.html

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Biden seems to have learned nothing from the Obama fiasco of austerity which slowed economic growth for years last decade. The Republicans love imposing these low growth limitations on Democratic Presidents which Republicans ignore when they are in the White House. In this regard, Biden is an idiot.

Of course, all sides agree not to limit defense spending. American voters love defense spending and that is why we have so much of it.

dajo9 said:

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Goldener Bar said:

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Debt ceiling deal reached.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/27/us/politics/debt-limit-deal.html

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Biden seems to have learned nothing from the Obama fiasco of austerity which slowed economic growth for years last decade. The Republicans love imposing these low growth limitations on Democratic Presidents which Republicans ignore when they are in the White House. In this regard, Biden is an idiot.

Of course, all sides agree not to limit defense spending. American voters love defense spending and that is why we have so much of it.

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Or Biden likes austerity, but has to pretend that Republicans negotiated him into it.

Agreed about the defense spending.

Fiscal Conservatives strike again

Goldener Bar said:

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dajo9 said:

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Goldener Bar said:

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Debt ceiling deal reached.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/27/us/politics/debt-limit-deal.html

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Biden seems to have learned nothing from the Obama fiasco of austerity which slowed economic growth for years last decade. The Republicans love imposing these low growth limitations on Democratic Presidents which Republicans ignore when they are in the White House. In this regard, Biden is an idiot.

Of course, all sides agree not to limit defense spending. American voters love defense spending and that is why we have so much of it.

---

Or Biden likes austerity, but has to pretend that Republicans negotiated him into it.

Agreed about the defense spending.

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Plausible. I welcome a challenger from Biden's left.

I wonder if the threats to social security if the debt standoff continued were very effective while we were dumping 100s of millions into Ukraine hah. The same day they announced this agreement the Biden Admin announced $300million more to Ukraine. We're being played.

MinotStateBeav said:

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I wonder if the threats to social security if the debt standoff continued were very effective while we were dumping 100s of millions into Ukraine hah. The same day they announced this agreement the Biden Admin announced $300million more to Ukraine. We're being played.

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The US saved at least that much by leaving Afghanistan.

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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I wonder if the threats to social security if the debt standoff continued were very effective while we were dumping 100s of millions into Ukraine hah. The same day they announced this agreement the Biden Admin announced $300million more to Ukraine. We're being played.

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The US saved at least that much by leaving Afghanistan.

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Does this magic accounting work for other things too? Ohh I know I know, there was a $3 Billion accounting error in what we gave to Ukraine, so the Biden Admin was able to give $3billion more to Ukraine!!!

MinotStateBeav said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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I wonder if the threats to social security if the debt standoff continued were very effective while we were dumping 100s of millions into Ukraine hah. The same day they announced this agreement the Biden Admin announced $300million more to Ukraine. We're being played.

---

The US saved at least that much by leaving Afghanistan.

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Does this magic accounting work for other things too? Ohh I know I know, there was a $3 Billion accounting error in what we gave to Ukraine, so the Biden Admin was able to give $3billion more to Ukraine!!!

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Savings only count when Republicans do them. Otherwise it's just gimmicks

The early details prompted furious reactions from members of the hard-right House Freedom Caucus, who'd hoped to extract vastly more sweeping budget cuts and changes to the federal safety net in return for hiking the borrowing limit.

"This 'deal' is insanity," tweeted South Carolina Rep. Ralph Norman. "A $4T debt ceiling increase with virtually no cuts is not what we agreed to." North Carolina Rep. Dan Bishop tweeted a vomiting emoji after a GOP conference call, and complained about "RINOs congratulating McCarthy for getting almost zippo."

"Hard pass. Hold the line," offered Georgia Rep. Andrew Clyde. Texas Rep. Chip Roy, widely viewed as the Freedom Caucus' intellectual leader, called the agreement a "turd sandwich."

Democratic politicians generally avoided spiking the football the White House soberly described the deal as "an important step forward that reduces spending while protecting critical programs for working people." But reviews from pundits were more blunt. As Dan Pfeiffer of Pod Save America put it: "The devil is very much in the details, but it seems like President Biden and his team outplayed McCarthy."

I've been critical of how Biden has handled this crisis but have to give him credit for a pretty decisive victory at the end. This also shows how empty and pointless the GOP effort was - they achieved essentially no actual savings.

The "savings" from work requirements for food stamps is minimal at best and sometimes just leads to more spending on agencies and private businesses that help people find what are essentially fake jobs just to meet the requirements. There is little evidence that work requirements lead to long-term improvements in job prospects, but I think we all know the point of these requirements is to stigmatize food stamp recipients and make self-righteous virtue-signalling GOPers feel better. And of course racism plays a part as well.

I wish they would have used this opportunity to reduce military spend. We are mostly just giving old and obsolete military equipment to Ukraine and shouldn't allow the military to double dip on replacing it. Further, we are getting phenomenal ROI on our Ukraine donations/spend and should be using the learnings there to help lean out and make our military more efficient. It's become clear that Russia is a paper tiger who poses no threat to the US (and very little actual threat to Europe or NATO) and that the vast majority of our military spend is really in service of defending the world Team America style. If we genuinely cared about reducing our deficit, we would find massive savings there. Of course, neither party seems to actually care about that (certainly not the GOP) which is why the military budget only goes in one direction.

More proof deadline of Debt Limit is bs..Mitch McConnell calls for swift passage of Debt Limit package without unnecessary delay.

Unit2Sucks said:

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I wish they would have used this opportunity to reduce military spend. We are mostly just giving old and obsolete military equipment to Ukraine and shouldn't allow the military to double dip on replacing it.

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It appears that someone is missing one of the major points of the Ukranian war.

MinotStateBeav said:

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More proof deadline of Debt Limit is bs..Mitch McConnell calls for swift passage of Debt Limit package without unnecessary delay.

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I think debt limit itself is b.s. If you don't want to incur more debt, stop reducing your revenue sources with tax cuts and increasing your expenses with entitlements. It's like someone who takes a lower paying job and then increases expenses and then complains that they have to borrow money. Fiscal discipline is done through the budgeting process. In recent history, the budget deficit has not gone down (but skyrocketed) when the republicans had both houses in congress and the white house. Just get rid of the stupid debt limit and exercise discipline when exercising the TAX and SPEND authority solely delegated to CONGRESS and not the WHITE HOUSE. Tired of stupid congress, especially when the republicans are in power, taking all of us hostage because they have no self-control when it comes to tax and spend part of their job.

MinotStateBeav said:

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More proof deadline of Debt Limit is bs..Mitch McConnell calls for swift passage of Debt Limit package without unnecessary delay.

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BearHunter said:

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So Janet Yellen just revealed to us that June 1 was just an arbitrary date.

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More proof that you and MinotState have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the financial markets and basic economics.

It obviously never occurred to you that the amount of money that the U.S. Treasury has on hand to pay its committments is a moving "target" given the dynamic flows of tax receipts coming in.

When Janet Yellen had more data about those inflows, she revised her deadline.

Duh.

Facts are hard for liars, hypocrites, and morons to understand.

⚠️ DEBT CEILING DEAL: "Washington is doing it again. While you were celebrating Memorial Day, [The Swamp] was cutting another crap deal, more debt with no real changes whatsoever." @ByronDonalds #ampFW pic.twitter.com/PhxlSZ14Md

— FreedomWorks (@FreedomWorks) May 30, 2023

BearHunter said:

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⚠️ DEBT CEILING DEAL: "Washington is doing it again. While you were celebrating Memorial Day, [The Swamp] was cutting another crap deal, more debt with no real changes whatsoever." @ByronDonalds #ampFW pic.twitter.com/PhxlSZ14Md

— FreedomWorks (@FreedomWorks) May 30, 2023

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I guess everyone wins.

McCarthy gets to claim he got a few cuts, though it looks mostly like a lot of bookkeeping changes

Biden got to claim some cuts (of stuff he didn't like anyway), and earmark more money for stuff he does like.

Byron Donald, who admittedly is a good speaker, got to vilify Biden and McCarthy, appealing to his (and other tea party types') base, and making some good points about how a lot of this really is phony accounting.

This seems like a win for every politician, it what is a dance that seems to happen every time the GOP controls Congress and negotiates with a Democratic President over the debt ceiling. Also gave the media something to discuss. Call me cynical.

wifeisafurd said:

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BearHunter said:

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⚠️ DEBT CEILING DEAL: "Washington is doing it again. While you were celebrating Memorial Day, [The Swamp] was cutting another crap deal, more debt with no real changes whatsoever." @ByronDonalds #ampFW pic.twitter.com/PhxlSZ14Md

— FreedomWorks (@FreedomWorks) May 30, 2023

---

I guess everyone wins.

McCarthy gets to claim he got a few cuts, though it looks mostly like a lot of bookkeeping changes

Biden got to claim some cuts (of stuff he didn't like anyway), and earmark more money for stuff he does like.

Byron Donald, who admittedly is a good speaker, got to vilify Biden and McCarthy, appealing to his (and other tea party types') base, and making some good points about how a lot of this really is phony accounting.

This seems like a win for every politician, it what is a dance that seems to happen every time the GOP controls Congress and negotiates with a Democratic President over the debt ceiling. Also gave the media something to discuss. Call me cynical.

---

I think you have every right to be cynical. If the Democrats are accepting this deal, it means it's a bad deal despite Kevin McCarthy.

BearHunter said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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BearHunter said:

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⚠️ DEBT CEILING DEAL: "Washington is doing it again. While you were celebrating Memorial Day, [The Swamp] was cutting another crap deal, more debt with no real changes whatsoever." @ByronDonalds #ampFW pic.twitter.com/PhxlSZ14Md

— FreedomWorks (@FreedomWorks) May 30, 2023

---

I guess everyone wins.

McCarthy gets to claim he got a few cuts, though it looks mostly like a lot of bookkeeping changes

Biden got to claim some cuts (of stuff he didn't like anyway), and earmark more money for stuff he does like.

Byron Donald, who admittedly is a good speaker, got to vilify Biden and McCarthy, appealing to his (and other tea party types') base, and making some good points about how a lot of this really is phony accounting.

This seems like a win for every politician, it what is a dance that seems to happen every time the GOP controls Congress and negotiates with a Democratic President over the debt ceiling. Also gave the media something to discuss. Call me cynical.

---

I think you have every right to be cynical. If the Democrats are accepting this deal, it means it's a bad deal despite Kevin McCarthy.

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Something tells me you had no problem with Donald Trump racking up over $7 TRILLION in DEBT in just 4 years.

Unit2Sucks said:

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I've been critical of how Biden has handled this crisis but have to give him credit for a pretty decisive victory at the end. This also shows how empty and pointless the GOP effort was - they achieved essentially no actual savings.

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Might be time for everyone to stop underestimating Joe Biden's negotiating skills. Or maybe just keep on doing it; the negative perception might help him get better deals.