The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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Cal88
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 7:27p, 10/13/23
Unit2Sucks said:
BearGoggles said:
concordtom said:
Israel is telling people to evacuate so they can bomb their buildings?

In the US, if someone sneaks onto your property to steal your stuff, or light it on fire, are we allowed to shoot them to stop them?

…Even if 1.1M flee, what about all their stuff? And I mean, forget washers and dryers, I'm talking about photo albums, family bibles (equivalent thereof), paintings and other stuff they won't be able to carry with them.

This is absurd!!

In the US, if someone sneaks onto your property, kidnaps and kills members of your family (or tries to), are you allowed to shoot and kill them? Actually, the answer is yes, as it is anywhere in the world.
The analogous answer is actually no. If someone sneaks onto your property, kidnaps and kills members of your family and then leaves your property, you are not in fact permitted to shoot and kill them in any civilized country in the world. Self-defense does not justify hunting people down after the fact.

I am not aware of any state that lets you mete out extrajudicial justice outside of an actual acute threat. Vigilante justice is popular in movies but not legal.

I think you know this.

Obviously the situation between nations and dealing with terrorists is very different from a home invasion, but if people are drawing some sort of absurd analogy, let's at least be accurate.

The correct analogy here is if someone sneaks onto your property, kidnaps and kills members of your family, are you allowed to shoot and kill his family and neighbors. That's what is actually going on.
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concordtom
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In reply to Big C • 7:28p, 10/13/23
Big C said:
I haven't posted much on this topic, as I admit to not being super-well informed about it (though certainly moderately so). I'm wondering if Israel's response could be more measured and more "surgical" (dunno the answer). Because propaganda is an important element in all wars and Israel isn't going to look very good if they basically level Gaza. Yes, I know, look what Hamas did, but pretty soon Israel's response is going to be what's getting the daily press coverage.

There was a time, a half century ago, when a lot of the coverage would have been about the United Nations discussing this and condemning Hamas' actions. I don't even know if that is happening now (though I presume so), but I haven't seen much mention of it. If it were UN forces going into Gaza, that would look a lot better for Israel. Okay, the UN is flawed, but it seems too bad that their role has been diminished the past few decades.


Israel has already inflicted FAR more pain, suffering, and death upon the Palestinians than 3000 (I heard today) Hamas terrorists put upon Israel. And we haven't even started.

There's nothing surgical here.



Remember when that sinkhole in Florida caused that apartment building to collapse? The media was all over it. Oh, the horror! The building owner should face serious consequences for letting this happen to the poor residents.

Now contrast that with what Israel is doing in Gaza, just flattening outright building after building after building with their missiles.

The entire scene should be set forth with a John Philip Sousa score.

Actually, it was Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries I was hearing.
But I see that's all been done before.

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concordtom
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In reply to Cal88 • 8:02p, 10/13/23
Cal88 said:
Unit2Sucks said:
BearGoggles said:
concordtom said:
Israel is telling people to evacuate so they can bomb their buildings?

In the US, if someone sneaks onto your property to steal your stuff, or light it on fire, are we allowed to shoot them to stop them?

…Even if 1.1M flee, what about all their stuff? And I mean, forget washers and dryers, I'm talking about photo albums, family bibles (equivalent thereof), paintings and other stuff they won't be able to carry with them.

This is absurd!!

In the US, if someone sneaks onto your property, kidnaps and kills members of your family (or tries to), are you allowed to shoot and kill them? Actually, the answer is yes, as it is anywhere in the world.
The analogous answer is actually no. If someone sneaks onto your property, kidnaps and kills members of your family and then leaves your property, you are not in fact permitted to shoot and kill them in any civilized country in the world. Self-defense does not justify hunting people down after the fact.

I am not aware of any state that lets you mete out extrajudicial justice outside of an actual acute threat. Vigilante justice is popular in movies but not legal.

I think you know this.

Obviously the situation between nations and dealing with terrorists is very different from a home invasion, but if people are drawing some sort of absurd analogy, let's at least be accurate.

The correct analogy here is if someone sneaks onto your property, kidnaps and kills members of your family, are you allowed to shoot and kill his family and neighbors. That's what is actually going on.

Ha, yeah.
I pegged you differently on this one.

Unfortunately, those neighbors have cousins. Lots and lots of cousins!!
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concordtom
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In reply to Lets Go Brandon 17 • 8:10p, 10/13/23
Slava Palestini said:
From two years ago, MSNBC doing something usually anathema to their broadcasting philosophy and actually telling the truth.

(Note BearGoggles, you may want to skip this one)


Bravo!
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sycasey
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 9:57p, 10/13/23
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
concordtom said:
Israel is telling people to evacuate so they can bomb their buildings?

In the US, if someone sneaks onto your property to steal your stuff, or light it on fire, are we allowed to shoot them to stop them?

…Even if 1.1M flee, what about all their stuff? And I mean, forget washers and dryers, I'm talking about photo albums, family bibles (equivalent thereof), paintings and other stuff they won't be able to carry with them.

This is absurd!!
Simple solution. Don't elect or otherwise allow yourself to be ruled by terrorists.
Once the terrorist group is in charge, I'm not sure that is a simple solution anymore. Half of people in Gaza right now were not even born when Hamas first won their one election.
What is your proposed solution for removing Hamas from power or even causing them to hold a real election? There is only one scenario I can see Hamas losing power and it is about to happen. But I'm open to any ideas you or others present.

Or is your solution to just leave Hamas in place indefinitely? On what basis would any country accept that from its neighbor? The US traveled to the other end of the globe to chase Al Queda.
The US and its aggressive military response to Al Qaeda was a mistake and an unwinnable mission. Killing Osama Bin Laden was possible (and justified). Eliminating Al Qaeda was not, because they are a large, decentralized terrorist organization and killing one leader just means a few more pop up in different places, and the increasing military commitment just leads to more civilian deaths and more fomented discontent in the region (therefore more ripe recruiting targets).

Hamas is similar. The more force you apply, the more popularity they gain among the civilian population caught in the crossfire. So while it may sound trite, the best way to fight them is to defend your own borders and within them actually live up to your higher values. That means sticking to agreements, negotiating in good faith with non-terrorist Palestinian leaders, supporting freedom and liberal democracy, etc. IMO Israel has fallen away from these values during the Netanyahu era and needs to return to them.
You pivoted there between paragraphs 1 and 2 in an expected way.

Hamas is semi-similar. They are a governing entity for a country. They can be militarily defeated and removed from power. And it is also true that doing so - especially with the killing of Palestinian civilians - may mean more people join their ideological ranks. Isn't that great for the terrorists? They've got the perfect scenario. As long as they are willing to die and sacrifice innocent countrymen they put Israel in a no win situation.
Well then, my question is this: Does Israel have a PLAN for what will happen once Hamas is removed from power? Right now, it doesn't seem like they do. If there isn't one then another Hamas will just emerge.
First, apologies for a typo. I meant to say UNexpected pivot.

To your question…who knows? A guess would be they are focused on eliminating Hamas and don't have a master plan. Who knows if Israel even thinks it's their place to impose a political solution on Gaza? Their rights should end at the point of ensuring their state security. Could we hope for a Palestinian Authority return?

Again, given that Hamas is an organization without a singular figurehead leader to be taken out, then I don't see how you eliminate Hamas unless you're ready to occupy long-term. Kill the current leaders and more will show up. I'm not sure Israel actually wants to do that.

Which is why the current action just feels like vengeance to me, not an attempt at a lasting solution.
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dimitrig
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In reply to sycasey • 10:07p, 10/13/23
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
concordtom said:
Israel is telling people to evacuate so they can bomb their buildings?

In the US, if someone sneaks onto your property to steal your stuff, or light it on fire, are we allowed to shoot them to stop them?

…Even if 1.1M flee, what about all their stuff? And I mean, forget washers and dryers, I'm talking about photo albums, family bibles (equivalent thereof), paintings and other stuff they won't be able to carry with them.

This is absurd!!
Simple solution. Don't elect or otherwise allow yourself to be ruled by terrorists.
Once the terrorist group is in charge, I'm not sure that is a simple solution anymore. Half of people in Gaza right now were not even born when Hamas first won their one election.
What is your proposed solution for removing Hamas from power or even causing them to hold a real election? There is only one scenario I can see Hamas losing power and it is about to happen. But I'm open to any ideas you or others present.

Or is your solution to just leave Hamas in place indefinitely? On what basis would any country accept that from its neighbor? The US traveled to the other end of the globe to chase Al Queda.
The US and its aggressive military response to Al Qaeda was a mistake and an unwinnable mission. Killing Osama Bin Laden was possible (and justified). Eliminating Al Qaeda was not, because they are a large, decentralized terrorist organization and killing one leader just means a few more pop up in different places, and the increasing military commitment just leads to more civilian deaths and more fomented discontent in the region (therefore more ripe recruiting targets).

Hamas is similar. The more force you apply, the more popularity they gain among the civilian population caught in the crossfire. So while it may sound trite, the best way to fight them is to defend your own borders and within them actually live up to your higher values. That means sticking to agreements, negotiating in good faith with non-terrorist Palestinian leaders, supporting freedom and liberal democracy, etc. IMO Israel has fallen away from these values during the Netanyahu era and needs to return to them.
You pivoted there between paragraphs 1 and 2 in an expected way.

Hamas is semi-similar. They are a governing entity for a country. They can be militarily defeated and removed from power. And it is also true that doing so - especially with the killing of Palestinian civilians - may mean more people join their ideological ranks. Isn't that great for the terrorists? They've got the perfect scenario. As long as they are willing to die and sacrifice innocent countrymen they put Israel in a no win situation.
Well then, my question is this: Does Israel have a PLAN for what will happen once Hamas is removed from power? Right now, it doesn't seem like they do. If there isn't one then another Hamas will just emerge.
First, apologies for a typo. I meant to say UNexpected pivot.

To your question…who knows? A guess would be they are focused on eliminating Hamas and don't have a master plan. Who knows if Israel even thinks it's their place to impose a political solution on Gaza? Their rights should end at the point of ensuring their state security. Could we hope for a Palestinian Authority return?

Again, given that Hamas is an organization without a singular figurehead leader to be taken out, then I don't see how you eliminate Hamas unless you're ready to occupy long-term. Kill the current leaders and more will show up. I'm not sure Israel actually wants to do that.

Which is why the current action just feels like vengeance to me, not an attempt at a lasting solution.


What Israel thinks will happen:

"Damn Hamas! Thanks to them our city is destroyed. We must find new leadership that doesn't antagonize Israel!"

What will actually happen:

"Why is Israel attacking my home and killing my family when I had nothing to do with the attacks? I hope every single Israeli pays for this!"

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Lets Go Brandon 17
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11:13p, 10/13/23
More and more, Israel shows us who they really are

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Cal88
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12:03a, 10/14/23
Very good perspective on Israel/Palestine:

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dajo9
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5:43a, 10/14/23
Muslim journalists from MSNBC who usually provide good perspective on the Palestinian situation (like Ali Velshi in the clip above) are being silenced and removed from air.

MSNBC is an establishment conservative station that stumbled upon a liberal prime time ratings bonanza years ago with the unexpected success of Rachel Maddow. The day starts with former Republican Congressman Joe Scarborough and continues until former WBush staffer Nicole Wallace closes out the day. Then the evening prime time is more liberal but favored guests continue to be conservadems like Claire McCaskill who is touted as an expert on all things but wasn't smart enough to keep her Senate seat in red America. I have never seen a more forlorn on air broadcast than MSNBC when it looked like Bernie Sanders was going to win the Democratic Party nomination in 2020. There is no such thing as truly liberal corporate news in America.

MSNBC has always tried to pull away from its liberal viewers but they are trapped between money and success vs. a point of view they hate. This week they are silencing other points of view again. They did the same in 2003 by firing Phil Donahue for allowing anti-war opinions. Think how much better off America might be if we heard more liberal anti-war opinions in 2003.

https://www.semafor.com/article/10/13/2023/inside-msnbcs-middle-east-conflict
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Zippergate
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7:32a, 10/14/23


Because the Palestinians are much more useful as cannon fodder.
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MinotStateBeav
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In reply to Zippergate • 7:58a, 10/14/23
Zippergate said:


Because the Palestinians are much more useful as cannon fodder.
Where's the safety corridor Egypt you bigots!!!! Already seeing leftist push for the USA to take in 1 million..that's so dumb.

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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Zippergate • 8:49a, 10/14/23
Zippergate said:


Because the Palestinians are much more useful as cannon fodder.
Egypt's President El-Sisi is quoted today as saying no Palestinian refugees will be allowed because allowing them to leave detracts from the greater Palestinian problem. In other words, it's okay for them to suffer until Israel doesn't exist as a state any longer. This is a really sad continuation of greater Arab policy since 1948 (partial exception for Jordan, I believe).

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tequila4kapp
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9:04a, 10/14/23
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sycasey
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9:13a, 10/14/23
Not sure if anyone who complains about the refugees at the US border has standing to criticize Egypt here.
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MinotStateBeav
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In reply to sycasey • 9:16a, 10/14/23
sycasey said:
Not sure if anyone who complains about the refugees at the US border has standing to criticize Egypt here.
Maybe a guy who doesn't believe in borders ought to sit this one out.
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sycasey
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In reply to MinotStateBeav • 9:19a, 10/14/23
MinotStateBeav said:
sycasey said:
Not sure if anyone who complains about the refugees at the US border has standing to criticize Egypt here.
Maybe a guy who doesn't believe in borders ought to sit this one out.
I'll let you know when he's here.
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MinotStateBeav
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In reply to sycasey • 9:22a, 10/14/23
sycasey said:
MinotStateBeav said:
sycasey said:
Not sure if anyone who complains about the refugees at the US border has standing to criticize Egypt here.
Maybe a guy who doesn't believe in borders ought to sit this one out.
I'll let you know when he's here.
He's looking in the mirror.
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concordtom
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In reply to dimitrig • 9:29a, 10/14/23
dimitrig said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
concordtom said:
Israel is telling people to evacuate so they can bomb their buildings?

In the US, if someone sneaks onto your property to steal your stuff, or light it on fire, are we allowed to shoot them to stop them?

…Even if 1.1M flee, what about all their stuff? And I mean, forget washers and dryers, I'm talking about photo albums, family bibles (equivalent thereof), paintings and other stuff they won't be able to carry with them.

This is absurd!!
Simple solution. Don't elect or otherwise allow yourself to be ruled by terrorists.
Once the terrorist group is in charge, I'm not sure that is a simple solution anymore. Half of people in Gaza right now were not even born when Hamas first won their one election.
What is your proposed solution for removing Hamas from power or even causing them to hold a real election? There is only one scenario I can see Hamas losing power and it is about to happen. But I'm open to any ideas you or others present.

Or is your solution to just leave Hamas in place indefinitely? On what basis would any country accept that from its neighbor? The US traveled to the other end of the globe to chase Al Queda.
The US and its aggressive military response to Al Qaeda was a mistake and an unwinnable mission. Killing Osama Bin Laden was possible (and justified). Eliminating Al Qaeda was not, because they are a large, decentralized terrorist organization and killing one leader just means a few more pop up in different places, and the increasing military commitment just leads to more civilian deaths and more fomented discontent in the region (therefore more ripe recruiting targets).

Hamas is similar. The more force you apply, the more popularity they gain among the civilian population caught in the crossfire. So while it may sound trite, the best way to fight them is to defend your own borders and within them actually live up to your higher values. That means sticking to agreements, negotiating in good faith with non-terrorist Palestinian leaders, supporting freedom and liberal democracy, etc. IMO Israel has fallen away from these values during the Netanyahu era and needs to return to them.
You pivoted there between paragraphs 1 and 2 in an expected way.

Hamas is semi-similar. They are a governing entity for a country. They can be militarily defeated and removed from power. And it is also true that doing so - especially with the killing of Palestinian civilians - may mean more people join their ideological ranks. Isn't that great for the terrorists? They've got the perfect scenario. As long as they are willing to die and sacrifice innocent countrymen they put Israel in a no win situation.
Well then, my question is this: Does Israel have a PLAN for what will happen once Hamas is removed from power? Right now, it doesn't seem like they do. If there isn't one then another Hamas will just emerge.
First, apologies for a typo. I meant to say UNexpected pivot.

To your question…who knows? A guess would be they are focused on eliminating Hamas and don't have a master plan. Who knows if Israel even thinks it's their place to impose a political solution on Gaza? Their rights should end at the point of ensuring their state security. Could we hope for a Palestinian Authority return?

Again, given that Hamas is an organization without a singular figurehead leader to be taken out, then I don't see how you eliminate Hamas unless you're ready to occupy long-term. Kill the current leaders and more will show up. I'm not sure Israel actually wants to do that.

Which is why the current action just feels like vengeance to me, not an attempt at a lasting solution.


What Israel thinks will happen:

"Damn Hamas! Thanks to them our city is destroyed. We must find new leadership that doesn't antagonize Israel!"

What will actually happen:

"Why is Israel attacking my home and killing my family when I had nothing to do with the attacks? I hope every single Israeli pays for this!"


Exactly.
Do you think the 50% of Gaza under 18 received the broadcasts showing the horrors of the Oct 7 attack? Or understand why Gaza got leveled?
No. They know nothing about that!!!

Israel is going to be similarly pounded, and the world will say, "oh, the Jews are forever persecuted!"
But I will say, "they brought it on themselves."

Eye for an eye.
For an eye.
For someone else's eye.
For their first born's eye.
It never ends.

Which is why Jesus actually had an interesting take on it. Turn the other cheek.

When the US Marshall Plan rebuilt Germany and Japan…. That's what Israel has needed to do for their enemies.

Will they?
Doubtful.
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concordtom
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In reply to MinotStateBeav • 9:37a, 10/14/23
MinotStateBeav said:
sycasey said:
MinotStateBeav said:
sycasey said:
Not sure if anyone who complains about the refugees at the US border has standing to criticize Egypt here.
Maybe a guy who doesn't believe in borders ought to sit this one out.
I'll let you know when he's here.
He's looking in the mirror.


Dork.
Y'all like to tell us what we believe.
You know, you are programmed by your media overlords, don't you?! You've been programmed to believe that. Because he JUST told you that he believes in borders. But, I guess you know him better.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to sycasey • 10:31a, 10/14/23
sycasey said:
Not sure if anyone who complains about the refugees at the US border has standing to criticize Egypt here.
Nice try, but not even close IMO. For most sane US critics it isn't about allowing or not allowing any immigrants/migrants into a country it's about having a secured border and lawful system that is enforceable. Unlike the US it appears Egypt actually has that. Furthermore, since there aren't historical complications around disputed land and one country at war with another in South America following a terrorist attack, the underlying conditions driving the need for border crossings in Egypt are wholly dissimilar from the Mexico/US border.
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sycasey
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 10:55a, 10/14/23
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
Not sure if anyone who complains about the refugees at the US border has standing to criticize Egypt here.
Nice try, but not even close IMO. For most sane US critics it isn't about allowing or not allowing any immigrants/migrants into a country it's about having a secured border and lawful system that is enforceable.
You provide the most charitable interpretation of right-wing policy, and for that I thank you.
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wifeisafurd
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 11:08a, 10/14/23
tequila4kapp said:
Zippergate said:


Because the Palestinians are much more useful as cannon fodder.
Egypt's President El-Sisi is quoted today as saying no Palestinian refugees will be allowed because allowing them to leave detracts from the greater Palestinian problem. In other words, it's okay for them to suffer until Israel doesn't exist as a state any longer. This is a really sad continuation of greater Arab policy since 1948 (partial exception for Jordan, I believe).

Egypt won't admit this, but they are an Israeli ally.
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Lets Go Brandon 17
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5:37p, 10/14/23


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MinotStateBeav
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9:04a, 10/15/23
I learned a lot about Palestine and Israel in this interview with Sabby and Kim Iverson. Iverson travelled to Palestine and talked about her trip. How difficult it is for the people of Palestine to travel..the ethnic make-up. Said lots of Christian-Palestinians live in Ramallah, but Gaza is mostly muslim with Hamas (radical group) running that specific area. I learned so much that I didn't know. How Christians are 2nd class citizens in pretty much all of Israel. They went over the beginning of the state of Israel about how the Nazis were talking with the British of where to set up an Israeli state and it was a man named Hertzl (I think spelling is right, not sure), a secular Nazi thought setting up near a religious site would encourage zionists (Russian Jews who saw themselves more as russian than Jewish) would settle there to create a jewish state. It was an area where there was a jewish colony already. This is where Nazis basically got the idea of a 1 identity state. So that's why Israel is so friendly to Russia btw. A lot of Russians live there. I'm 20 mins in so the interview is fascinating to me.



What I've learned is as americans...we shouldn't be involved AT ALL. We shouldn't be funding Palestine or Israel. We can do normal business with both but not to sell military equipment at all. The israelis need to figure it out with the palestinians without our military support. My personal thought is like Kim...Israel needs to ultimately wait till tensions calm down then create a new state where they Israelis need to stop havin a "Only Israeli Jew state" and become more like the USA where everyone has the same rights. Then maybe ultimately have a new country that incorporates the 3 areas like STATES. Have like a United States of Abraham or some thing to be renamed. Each state can be a equal power in government. But that would take a lot of work without us being involved. But NOBODY should be taking Palestinians refugees to their country because its doing what the Israelis want, which is to ultimately kick them off their land. It's not tenable for other countries to take 2 million refugees. Israel needs to figure this dispute out with the Palestinians period its not for us to take the pressure off them.

This is why we should stop taking in the world's problems into our borders, we basically taking the pressure off these dictatorship countries. Its a joke, and we have to stop doing it. We're making our country worse, so its a lesson in not getting into conflicts that our MIC are taking advantage of. They're getting rich, while screwing us over and them.

edit: Actually instead of 3 states,,probably 2 states...if you had 3 states the 2 states would just gang up on the one state..so probably has to have a 2 state solution like was proposed.
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bearister
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2:40p, 10/15/23
UC-Berkley's Bears for Palestine history of backing Hamas terrorists



https://mol.im/a/12625035
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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Zippergate
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2:51p, 10/15/23
Worth a watch

David Woo on Biden's role in the Hamas attack
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Cal88
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3:55p, 10/15/23



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smh
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4:40p, 10/15/23
daily events, singalong edition, indirectly from national treasure nina "sita sings the blues" paley
her imdb awards list https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1315434/awards
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going4roses
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8:05p, 10/15/23
So much going on …
Tell someone you love them and try to have a good day
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BearGoggles
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8:50p, 10/15/23
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 9:06p, 10/15/23
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
concordtom said:
Israel is telling people to evacuate so they can bomb their buildings?

In the US, if someone sneaks onto your property to steal your stuff, or light it on fire, are we allowed to shoot them to stop them?

…Even if 1.1M flee, what about all their stuff? And I mean, forget washers and dryers, I'm talking about photo albums, family bibles (equivalent thereof), paintings and other stuff they won't be able to carry with them.

This is absurd!!
Simple solution. Don't elect or otherwise allow yourself to be ruled by terrorists.
Once the terrorist group is in charge, I'm not sure that is a simple solution anymore. Half of people in Gaza right now were not even born when Hamas first won their one election.
What is your proposed solution for removing Hamas from power or even causing them to hold a real election? There is only one scenario I can see Hamas losing power and it is about to happen. But I'm open to any ideas you or others present.

Or is your solution to just leave Hamas in place indefinitely? On what basis would any country accept that from its neighbor? The US traveled to the other end of the globe to chase Al Queda.
The US and its aggressive military response to Al Qaeda was a mistake and an unwinnable mission. Killing Osama Bin Laden was possible (and justified). Eliminating Al Qaeda was not, because they are a large, decentralized terrorist organization and killing one leader just means a few more pop up in different places, and the increasing military commitment just leads to more civilian deaths and more fomented discontent in the region (therefore more ripe recruiting targets).

Hamas is similar. The more force you apply, the more popularity they gain among the civilian population caught in the crossfire. So while it may sound trite, the best way to fight them is to defend your own borders and within them actually live up to your higher values. That means sticking to agreements, negotiating in good faith with non-terrorist Palestinian leaders, supporting freedom and liberal democracy, etc. IMO Israel has fallen away from these values during the Netanyahu era and needs to return to them.
You pivoted there between paragraphs 1 and 2 in an expected way.

Hamas is semi-similar. They are a governing entity for a country. They can be militarily defeated and removed from power. And it is also true that doing so - especially with the killing of Palestinian civilians - may mean more people join their ideological ranks. Isn't that great for the terrorists? They've got the perfect scenario. As long as they are willing to die and sacrifice innocent countrymen they put Israel in a no win situation.
Well then, my question is this: Does Israel have a PLAN for what will happen once Hamas is removed from power? Right now, it doesn't seem like they do. If there isn't one then another Hamas will just emerge.
First, apologies for a typo. I meant to say UNexpected pivot.

To your question…who knows? A guess would be they are focused on eliminating Hamas and don't have a master plan. Who knows if Israel even thinks it's their place to impose a political solution on Gaza? Their rights should end at the point of ensuring their state security. Could we hope for a Palestinian Authority return?

Again, given that Hamas is an organization without a singular figurehead leader to be taken out, then I don't see how you eliminate Hamas unless you're ready to occupy long-term. Kill the current leaders and more will show up. I'm not sure Israel actually wants to do that.

Which is why the current action just feels like vengeance to me, not an attempt at a lasting solution.
Hamas does have leadership - mostly in Quatar. Certainly they have leaders in Gaza.

But you're missing the larger point. Hamas can be deposed. Just like with ISIL and for that matter Al Queda. You won't eliminate the ideology, but you attempt to eliminate the ability to attack you.

There is no guarantee the Israelis will be successful. There's a significant risk that what follows Hamas will be chaos or even worse. But what is clear is that there will be no peace with Hamas in power like they currently are. And there in only one way to remove Hamas - by force.

It speaks volumes that so many people here are criticizing the morality of Israel's actions and some are suggesting that Hamas is justified in what it did due to "colonialism". None of you said word one when the US and its allies carpet bombed Mosul and may other cities to defeat ISIL, killing many civilians. Or when Asaad slaughtered Palestinians.

https://theintercept.com/2021/11/18/isis-syria-us-airstrikes-civilians-killed/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/12/us/civilian-deaths-war-isis.html

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/13/1072735380/journalist-says-u-s-air-war-against-isis-killed-countless-civilians-in-syria

In fact, most of you said nothing about the innocent people killed by ISIS, Hamas, Russia, Ukraine, Syria, and Iran, which included innumerable women and children

No country with the means to defend itself would do anything different than what Israel is doing and about to do.
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sycasey
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In reply to BearGoggles • 9:32p, 10/15/23
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
concordtom said:
Israel is telling people to evacuate so they can bomb their buildings?

In the US, if someone sneaks onto your property to steal your stuff, or light it on fire, are we allowed to shoot them to stop them?

…Even if 1.1M flee, what about all their stuff? And I mean, forget washers and dryers, I'm talking about photo albums, family bibles (equivalent thereof), paintings and other stuff they won't be able to carry with them.

This is absurd!!
Simple solution. Don't elect or otherwise allow yourself to be ruled by terrorists.
Once the terrorist group is in charge, I'm not sure that is a simple solution anymore. Half of people in Gaza right now were not even born when Hamas first won their one election.
What is your proposed solution for removing Hamas from power or even causing them to hold a real election? There is only one scenario I can see Hamas losing power and it is about to happen. But I'm open to any ideas you or others present.

Or is your solution to just leave Hamas in place indefinitely? On what basis would any country accept that from its neighbor? The US traveled to the other end of the globe to chase Al Queda.
The US and its aggressive military response to Al Qaeda was a mistake and an unwinnable mission. Killing Osama Bin Laden was possible (and justified). Eliminating Al Qaeda was not, because they are a large, decentralized terrorist organization and killing one leader just means a few more pop up in different places, and the increasing military commitment just leads to more civilian deaths and more fomented discontent in the region (therefore more ripe recruiting targets).

Hamas is similar. The more force you apply, the more popularity they gain among the civilian population caught in the crossfire. So while it may sound trite, the best way to fight them is to defend your own borders and within them actually live up to your higher values. That means sticking to agreements, negotiating in good faith with non-terrorist Palestinian leaders, supporting freedom and liberal democracy, etc. IMO Israel has fallen away from these values during the Netanyahu era and needs to return to them.
You pivoted there between paragraphs 1 and 2 in an expected way.

Hamas is semi-similar. They are a governing entity for a country. They can be militarily defeated and removed from power. And it is also true that doing so - especially with the killing of Palestinian civilians - may mean more people join their ideological ranks. Isn't that great for the terrorists? They've got the perfect scenario. As long as they are willing to die and sacrifice innocent countrymen they put Israel in a no win situation.
Well then, my question is this: Does Israel have a PLAN for what will happen once Hamas is removed from power? Right now, it doesn't seem like they do. If there isn't one then another Hamas will just emerge.
First, apologies for a typo. I meant to say UNexpected pivot.

To your question…who knows? A guess would be they are focused on eliminating Hamas and don't have a master plan. Who knows if Israel even thinks it's their place to impose a political solution on Gaza? Their rights should end at the point of ensuring their state security. Could we hope for a Palestinian Authority return?

Again, given that Hamas is an organization without a singular figurehead leader to be taken out, then I don't see how you eliminate Hamas unless you're ready to occupy long-term. Kill the current leaders and more will show up. I'm not sure Israel actually wants to do that.

Which is why the current action just feels like vengeance to me, not an attempt at a lasting solution.
Hamas does have leadership - mostly in Quatar. Certainly they have leaders in Gaza.

But you're missing the larger point. Hamas can be deposed. Just like with ISIL and for that matter Al Queda. You won't eliminate the ideology, but you attempt to eliminate the ability to attack you.

There is no guarantee the Israelis will be successful. There's a significant risk that what follows Hamas will be chaos or even worse. But what is clear is that there will be no peace with Hamas in power like they currently are. And there in only one way to remove Hamas - by force.

It speaks volumes that so many people here are criticizing the morality of Israel's actions and some are suggesting that Hamas is justified in what it did due to "colonialism". None of you said word one when the US and its allies carpet bombed Mosul and may other cities to defeat ISIL, killing many civilians. Or when Asaad slaughtered Palestinians.

https://theintercept.com/2021/11/18/isis-syria-us-airstrikes-civilians-killed/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/12/us/civilian-deaths-war-isis.html

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/13/1072735380/journalist-says-u-s-air-war-against-isis-killed-countless-civilians-in-syria

In fact, most of you said nothing about the innocent people killed by ISIS, Hamas, Russia, Ukraine, Syria, and Iran, which included innumerable women and children

No country with the means to defend itself would do anything different than what Israel is doing and about to do.
Israel's attempt to "remove" Hamas seems similar to the US attempting to hold Al-Qaeda out of leadership in Afghanistan (too difficult and not gonna happen), or to the US actually removing Saddam Hussein from power (then leaving a leadership void and an even bigger mess behind him). Maybe they'll do better but I am very skeptical.

I have been very critical of Assad here and also US foreign policy in various ways. I am under no illusion that Israel is the only bad actor in the region. But I also have a lot of criticism of Israel's policies towards Palestine (especially in the Netanyahu era) and will not refrain from voicing them just because others are also bad.
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bearister
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In reply to sycasey • 9:42p, 10/15/23
…..and part of the equation is the danger of creating several hundred thousand future radicalized recruits courtesy of a disproportionate response.

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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concordtom
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In reply to MinotStateBeav • 7:55a, 10/16/23
MinotStateBeav said:
I learned a lot about Palestine and Israel in this interview with Sabby and Kim Iverson.

… What I've learned is …


I'm glad that you are learning.

Funny how you conclude your remarks by focusing on whether the US should allow Palestinians into our country. I think that reveals a very self-focused and xenophobic perspective, which is not even the crux of the issue, at all.

My "guess" - and only a guess because I also have never been to the Middle East - is that ALL peoples want a standard of living they see as at least "satisfactory", and since standards of living improve over time this is based upon what they see others enjoying in the current era. Therefore, just as wealth disparities in the US cause angst, the vast chasm between Israel and Palestine is a problem in this conflict. That's the ECONOMIC aspect to it.

Second, SELF GOVERNANCE: Palestinian have no political autonomy in Gaza and the West Bank. The situation is absurd.

Third, both groups lay claim to TERRITORIAL HOMELANDS. I have no idea how this aspect gets settled because both sides fear each other and have been unable to share power due to this fear.

Personally, I think it's doomed. They are going to chew themselves up over the matter.

…..But, to your question about why we are even involved… you need to go back to the history books on that one. Are you proposing we abandon the notion?
Second, how do current US domestic politics affect your decision? You know, a lot of Americans believe in the notion of a Jewish state, whether they have any education in the matter or not. People can have poor views about things - they still need to be dealt with.

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concordtom
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8:18a, 10/16/23


Gaza-Egypt border fence looks like portions of US Mex.
It'll be interesting to see if Palestinians simply overrun it en masse.

Hamas doesn't want them to leave.
Egypt doesn't want them to enter.
But if they do, then what?
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