The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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Cal88
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9:53p, 6/12/25
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BearGoggles
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10:25p, 6/12/25
Super surprising (sarcasm) that none of the most prolific anti-Israel posters in this thread are outraged by Hamas' intentional targeting and killing of aid workers. Crickets.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/11/middleeast/israel-gaza-ghf-attack-hnk-latam-intl

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/6/12/us-backed-gaza-humanitarian-foundation-says-5-aid-workers-killed-by-hamas
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sycasey
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10:58p, 6/12/25
Hamas bad. Israeli government also bad.

But Israel has more power.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 11:13p, 6/12/25
sycasey said:
Hamas bad. Israeli government also bad.

But Israel has more power.
And that is a good thing.

For all its imperfections, Israel is a western style democracy - a country where Arabs, Muslims, Christians and people of all viewpoints (for example, the LGBTQ community) survive and thrive. No such thing can be said about Gaza, the West Bank, or for that matter any other. If Hamas/the Muslim Brotherhood/Iran had superior power, there'd be no Israel and terror would abound in the middle east.

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Cal88
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In reply to BearGoggles • 5:42a, 6/13/25
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Hamas bad. Israeli government also bad.

But Israel has more power.
And that is a good thing.

For all its imperfections, Israel is a western style democracy - a country where Arabs, Muslims, Christians and people of all viewpoints (for example, the LGBTQ community) survive and thrive. No such thing can be said about Gaza, the West Bank, or for that matter any other. If Hamas/the Muslim Brotherhood/Iran had superior power, there'd be no Israel and terror would abound in the middle east.

Israel is a "western-style" apartheid state where terror has abounded since its founding.



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sycasey
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In reply to BearGoggles • 9:54a, 6/13/25
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Hamas bad. Israeli government also bad.

But Israel has more power.
And that is a good thing.

For all its imperfections, Israel is a western style democracy - a country where Arabs, Muslims, Christians and people of all viewpoints (for example, the LGBTQ community) survive and thrive. No such thing can be said about Gaza, the West Bank, or for that matter any other. If Hamas/the Muslim Brotherhood/Iran had superior power, there'd be no Israel and terror would abound in the middle east.
Having more power means you have more onus on you to behave responsibly with that power. Netanyahu does not.
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dajo9
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11:22a, 6/13/25
Israel is an apartheid state
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Cal88
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In reply to dajo9 • 12:29p, 6/13/25
It's a lot worse than that, the Afrikaners never did do the kind of repeated wholesale massacres of unarmed civilians who weren't even protesting that the Israeli did. The Soweto Uprising massacre, the worst they did, was the equivalent of a couple of days' worth of IDF carnage in Gaza.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 12:44p, 6/13/25
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Hamas bad. Israeli government also bad.

But Israel has more power.
And that is a good thing.

For all its imperfections, Israel is a western style democracy - a country where Arabs, Muslims, Christians and people of all viewpoints (for example, the LGBTQ community) survive and thrive. No such thing can be said about Gaza, the West Bank, or for that matter any other. If Hamas/the Muslim Brotherhood/Iran had superior power, there'd be no Israel and terror would abound in the middle east.
Having more power means you have more onus on you to behave responsibly with that power. Netanyahu does not.
This is a bizarre formulation.

Israel/Bibi have nukes and other weapons that could destroy Gaza/West Bank/Lebannon/Syria/any other country in a matter of minutes. They have not done that.

What would Hamas or Iran due with such power or anywhere near it? Your take that Netanyahu has exercised his power irresponsibly seemingly ignores that reality and applies a different standard to Israel/Bibi than any other country.

What would the USA do if it was attacked in 10/7 fashion? We actually know - because after 9/11 the US went to war against Afghanistan, Iraq and terrorism in general. You can debate the merits of that decision (or for that matter Israel's current actions), but it doesn't mean that power is being irresponsibly exercised.

You also seem to be excusing bad acts from people/groups with less power, as if they have no agency. Hamas started the current war - Israel is entitled to fight to win.
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Cal88
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In reply to BearGoggles • 1:13p, 6/13/25
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Hamas bad. Israeli government also bad.

But Israel has more power.
And that is a good thing.

For all its imperfections, Israel is a western style democracy - a country where Arabs, Muslims, Christians and people of all viewpoints (for example, the LGBTQ community) survive and thrive. No such thing can be said about Gaza, the West Bank, or for that matter any other. If Hamas/the Muslim Brotherhood/Iran had superior power, there'd be no Israel and terror would abound in the middle east.
Having more power means you have more onus on you to behave responsibly with that power. Netanyahu does not.
This is a bizarre formulation.

Israel/Bibi have nukes and other weapons that could destroy Gaza/West Bank/Lebannon/Syria/any other country in a matter of minutes. They have not done that.

Israel has already dropped in the last 600+ days the equivalent of 5 Hiroshima bombs on Gaza, an area twice the size of SF with 3 times the population. If they could get away with nuking it, they would have done that, but perhaps they don't want the fallout from that, both in terms of PR, and radiation, as they intend to steal more land from the natives.

The goal all along was to destroy Gaza, and kill as many Gazans as they could get away with.



They have had uncontested, full air superiority over Gaza and could have conducted surgical strikes on Hamas leadership as they just did on a far more difficult target over 1000mi away in Tehran. Gaza is like a fishbowl or barrel they can shoot at with complete impunity.

Instead they level entire city blocks with 2,000lb bombs, then direct refugees towards "safe" areas that they bomb again, all while starving them.

They herd the starving masses towards alleged food distribution points then mow them down. Truly disgusting genocidal behavior.

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sycasey
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In reply to BearGoggles • 1:49p, 6/13/25
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Hamas bad. Israeli government also bad.

But Israel has more power.
And that is a good thing.

For all its imperfections, Israel is a western style democracy - a country where Arabs, Muslims, Christians and people of all viewpoints (for example, the LGBTQ community) survive and thrive. No such thing can be said about Gaza, the West Bank, or for that matter any other. If Hamas/the Muslim Brotherhood/Iran had superior power, there'd be no Israel and terror would abound in the middle east.
Having more power means you have more onus on you to behave responsibly with that power. Netanyahu does not.
This is a bizarre formulation.

Israel/Bibi have nukes and other weapons that could destroy Gaza/West Bank/Lebannon/Syria/any other country in a matter of minutes. They have not done that.

What would Hamas or Iran due with such power or anywhere near it? Your take that Netanyahu has exercised his power irresponsibly seemingly ignores that reality and applies a different standard to Israel/Bibi than any other country.

What would the USA do if it was attacked in 10/7 fashion? We actually know - because after 9/11 the US went to war against Afghanistan, Iraq and terrorism in general. You can debate the merits of that decision (or for that matter Israel's current actions), but it doesn't mean that power is being irresponsibly exercised.

You also seem to be excusing bad acts from people/groups with less power, as if they have no agency. Hamas started the current war - Israel is entitled to fight to win.

Oh no, I think Israel should behave better than an Islamic death cult. How monstrously hypocritical of me, applying this double standard. You got me there.

If you can point out to me where I ever "excused" Hamas, please do. My contention is that I have not and you are just doing the usual copy-paste arguments from everyone who wants to defend everything Israel ever does.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to Cal88 • 7:07p, 6/13/25
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Hamas bad. Israeli government also bad.

But Israel has more power.
And that is a good thing.

For all its imperfections, Israel is a western style democracy - a country where Arabs, Muslims, Christians and people of all viewpoints (for example, the LGBTQ community) survive and thrive. No such thing can be said about Gaza, the West Bank, or for that matter any other. If Hamas/the Muslim Brotherhood/Iran had superior power, there'd be no Israel and terror would abound in the middle east.
Having more power means you have more onus on you to behave responsibly with that power. Netanyahu does not.
This is a bizarre formulation.

Israel/Bibi have nukes and other weapons that could destroy Gaza/West Bank/Lebannon/Syria/any other country in a matter of minutes. They have not done that.

Israel has already dropped in the last 600+ days the equivalent of 5 Hiroshima bombs on Gaza, an area twice the size of SF with 3 times the population. If they could get away with nuking it, they would have done that, but perhaps they don't want the fallout from that, both in terms of PR, and radiation, as they intend to steal more land from the natives.

The goal all along was to destroy Gaza, and kill as many Gazans as they could get away with.



They have had uncontested, full air superiority over Gaza and could have conducted surgical strikes on Hamas leadership as they just did on a far more difficult target over 1000mi away in Tehran. Gaza is like a fishbowl or barrel they can shoot at with complete impunity.

Instead they level entire city blocks with 2,000lb bombs, then direct refugees towards "safe" areas that they bomb again, all while starving them.

They herd the starving masses towards alleged food distribution points then mow them down. Truly disgusting genocidal behavior.

That's a lot of word salad that never mentions "Hamas". Hamas could have ended the war at any time by releasing the hostages and relinquishing power.

And, quite humorously, you have inadvertently made my point. Israel did conduct surgical strikes 1000 miles away in Tehran - a truly remarkable accomplishment for Israel. Israel went to great lengths to do so. They were able to do that because unlike Hamas, Iran's military leaders don't hide behind and underneath civilians. That is the difference - it is entirely Hamas' cynical tactics that have dictated the loss of life in Gaza.

And in terms of the alleged starving of Gazans, I note you still have not commented on (much less condemned) Hamas' attack on the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation - after Hamas explicitly threatened to do so. You don't really care about feeding Gazans or the killing of Gazans unless you can blame Israel.



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tequila4kapp
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7:37p, 6/13/25

If Israel is committing genocide with X times the volume of bombs / Hiroshima, and if Gaza is subject to a naval and military blockade, and if Israel is denying food and aid into Gaza...exactly how is it that Hamas still exists? Why haven't they starved to death? Run out of bullets? This war has been going on for about 20 months. Things that make you go hmmm.
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Cal88
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11:21p, 6/14/25
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bearister
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11:24a, 6/15/25
Opinion | This Israeli Government Is a Danger to Jews Everywhere - The New York Times


https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/10/opinion/israel-gaza-anti-semitism.html

Any thoughts on Thomas Friedman's take? I know Yogi is a huge fan.
I read it in the hard copy of the East Bay Times. I don't have a NY Times subscription so it's paywalled.

This guy didn't care for Friedman's piece:

Thomas Friedman Suggests That Israelis Surrender | American Enterprise Institute - AEI


https://www.aei.org/social-cultural-and-constitutional-studies/thomas-friedman-suggests-that-israelis-surrender/
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention

“I love Cal deeply. What are the directions to The Portal from Sproul Plaza?”
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sycasey
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In reply to bearister • 5:48p, 6/15/25
bearister said:
Opinion | This Israeli Government Is a Danger to Jews Everywhere - The New York Times


https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/10/opinion/israel-gaza-anti-semitism.html

Any thoughts on Thomas Friedman's take? I know Yogi is a huge fan.
I read it in the hard copy of the East Bay Times. I don't have a NY Times subscription so it's paywalled.

This guy didn't care for Friedman's piece:

Thomas Friedman Suggests That Israelis Surrender | American Enterprise Institute - AEI


https://www.aei.org/social-cultural-and-constitutional-studies/thomas-friedman-suggests-that-israelis-surrender/

More and more international Jews who previously supported Israel are seeing it. It's just so much harder to deny the longer this goes on.
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Cal88
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In reply to sycasey • 8:39p, 6/15/25
sycasey said:
bearister said:
Opinion | This Israeli Government Is a Danger to Jews Everywhere - The New York Times


https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/10/opinion/israel-gaza-anti-semitism.html

Any thoughts on Thomas Friedman's take? I know Yogi is a huge fan.
I read it in the hard copy of the East Bay Times. I don't have a NY Times subscription so it's paywalled.

This guy didn't care for Friedman's piece:

Thomas Friedman Suggests That Israelis Surrender | American Enterprise Institute - AEI


https://www.aei.org/social-cultural-and-constitutional-studies/thomas-friedman-suggests-that-israelis-surrender/

More and more international Jews who previously supported Israel are seeing it. It's just so much harder to deny the longer this goes on.

Agreed, I would just add an international perspective here, the damage to Israel's image has been a lot worse outside the US, not just in the "global south" but also in most of Europe, especially among younger people.

Here in the US Israel still has the support of older conservatives who get their news from cable TV (Fox etc) or from the astroturfed online media. These people make up a large part of the Republican base, but are being confronted by another relatively large Republican segment, America Firsters, who are vehemently opposed to fighting Israel's newest hot war with American blood and treasure.
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Cal88
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6:48a, 6/21/25
The depravity of these people is beyond imagination.

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Anarchistbear
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8:01a, 6/21/25
From Politico

Andrew Cuomo joined the legal team defending Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu from war crime charges.

Zohran Mamdani vowed to arrest Netanyahu if he stepped foot in New York City.

Cuomo, the front-runner in the mayoral race, is on a redemption tour boosted by donors who support Israel, has gone to lengths to portray antisemitism as a leading issue and deemed himself a "hyper aggressive supporter of Israel and proud of it."


Least surprising news ever
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sycasey
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In reply to Anarchistbear • 9:13a, 6/21/25
Anarchistbear said:
From Politico

Andrew Cuomo joined the legal team defending Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu from war crime charges.

Zohran Mamdani vowed to arrest Netanyahu if he stepped foot in New York City.

Cuomo, the front-runner in the mayoral race, is on a redemption tour boosted by donors who support Israel, has gone to lengths to portray antisemitism as a leading issue and deemed himself a "hyper aggressive supporter of Israel and proud of it."


Least surprising news ever

Adding one more to the long list of reasons that Cuomo sucks. (Never mind that Israel should not be an issue in a municipal election at all. What the hell is the mayor going to do about that?)
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Anarchistbear
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12:26p, 6/21/25
Only in New York Ciry does defending a war criminal boost your political fortune
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dajo9
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In reply to Anarchistbear • 12:51p, 6/21/25
Anarchistbear said:
Only in New York Ciry does defending a war criminal boost your political fortune


"Only" in New York City? You may want to rethink that comment.
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Cal88
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1:12p, 6/22/25
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Cal88
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3:03p, 6/22/25
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bear2034
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6:48p, 6/22/25
According to a U.S. Department of Justice federal indictment, at least 43 Americans were killed by Hamas during the October 7, 2023, attack on Israel.
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Cal88
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In reply to bear2034 • 7:48p, 6/22/25
I would guess all of them Israeli citizens, and most were IDF soldiers or reservists, but certainly many innocent civilians as well.

The other issue is that up to half of civilians killed on October 7 were killed by the IDF implementing the Hannibal Doctrine, which mandated shooting at their own people in order to prevent them from being taken hostages.

I take it you must also be equally concerned about the American civilians who were executed by the IDF as well?


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bear2034
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In reply to Cal88 • 7:54p, 6/22/25
Cal88 said:
I would guess all of them Israeli citizens, and most were IDF soldiers or reservists, but certainly many innocent civilians as well.

The other issue is that up to half of civilians killed on October 7 were killed by the IDF implementing the Hannibal Doctrine, which mandated shooting at their own people in order to prevent them from being taken hostages.

Half of all civilians on October 7? What's your source?
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Cal88
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In reply to bear2034 • 8:14p, 6/22/25
bear2034 said:
Cal88 said:
I would guess all of them Israeli citizens, and most were IDF soldiers or reservists, but certainly many innocent civilians as well.

The other issue is that up to half of civilians killed on October 7 were killed by the IDF implementing the Hannibal Doctrine, which mandated shooting at their own people in order to prevent them from being taken hostages.

Half of all civilians on October 7? What's your source?

Israeli sources, mostly.







and some perspective from Aaron Mate:


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Cal88
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11:47a, 6/26/25
Violent pogroms by Israeli settlers against the population in several West Bank villages.






This is how the West Bank has been ethnically cleansed for the last 50+ years, one village at a time:
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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12:24p, 6/26/25
Damn. The over/under for social media reposts in Cal88's next post was 4.5. I took the under.
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Cal88
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In reply to Eastern Oregon Bear • 1:25p, 6/26/25
Did you learn something about the world today from the post above beyond lame partisan back and forth?
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:41p, 6/26/25
Cal88 said:
Did you learn something about the world today from the post above beyond lame partisan back and forth?
I learned that you think people will spend 10 minutes or so absorbing the propaganda you're pushing in each of your posts. Hopefully you'll one day learn that more is less.
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Cal88
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In reply to Eastern Oregon Bear • 2:47p, 6/26/25
Eastern Oregon Bear said:
Cal88 said:
Did you learn something about the world today from the post above beyond lame partisan back and forth?
I learned that you think people will spend 10 minutes or so absorbing the propaganda you're pushing in each of your posts. Hopefully you'll one day learn that more is less.

How much do you really know about the ongoing genocide in Palestine? I doubt you GAF.

This is not "propaganda", it's information and content that you don't receive from your usual outlets. You spend a lot more than 10 minutes engaging in ret@rd3d sandlot arguments with the "other side" on this forum.

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Anarchistbear
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6:20p, 6/26/25
Israeli ghouls not only starve people, they kill them when they try to obtain food aid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/26/world/middleeast/gaza-aid-violence.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare


"A month after the launch of a new Israeli-backed aid system for Gaza, reaching the heavily guarded distribution hubs has become a life-risking endeavor for Palestinians, hampering efforts to get enough food to a hungry population.

Deadly violence has erupted frequently around the approaches to the aid sites, most of them in southern Gaza. The Gaza health ministry said on Wednesday that hundreds have been killed over the past month near the distribution points, which are run by American security contractors and guarded by Israeli troops stationed nearby. "

"The United Nations and other international aid organizations have criticized the new system, saying the aid it delivers falls far short of needs and that it forces people to walk for miles in dangerous conditions for a chance to find food. They accuse Israel of turning aid into a weapon. "
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Cal88
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6:27a, 6/27/25
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