The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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tequila4kapp
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In reply to BearGoggles • 5:56p, 8/20/25
Excellent answer. I would add that it is the most mature and reliable democracy in the middle east, and the middle east country that most closely mirrors our western values of freedom of expression, freedom of religion, etc. Those things do matter.
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Cal88
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 6:07p, 8/20/25
Freedom of religion in Israel? Try being a monk there.





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In reply to BearGoggles • 6:41p, 8/20/25
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
We absolutely do have an interest in Israel's fate. We should arm and support them.

Serious question: what is our interest? What do we get out of the alliance with Israel?

For 50+ years, Israel has been the US's proxy in the Middle East, directly advancing US interests and shared values by projecting US power, providing extensive intelligence and military assistance, helping to win the cold war and advancing a variety of other US political and economic interests. Obviously, Israel has received tremendous benefits - I'm not suggesting otherwise.

Recently, Israel reduced the threat presented by Hezbollah and Iran, including stopping (for now) the Iranian nuclear program. Hezbollah and Iran (and their proxies) have killed hundreds of US citizens. Every US president has announced that the US policy is to prevent Iran from going nuclear. Israel has directly advanced that goal. No other country could have done that.



The main reason Iran has been pushing for a nuclear program because Israel has hundreds of nukes. They stole bomb technology and materials from the US and France in the 1960s. JFK's opposition to Israel getting nukes might well have contributed to his assassination.

Hezbollah was created in the 1980s by local Lebanese following the invasion and occupation of their country by Israel, which resulted in indiscriminate bombings and destructions of Lebanese villages.


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Cal88
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In reply to sycasey • 8:04p, 8/20/25
sycasey said:
Anarchistbear said:


Times are changing not the politicians of either party

It does seem like the public-opinion tide has decisively turned against Israel. Amazing how quickly it happened.


Scenes and stories like these, showing how Israel is killing Palestinian natives and stealing their land, which have happened nearly every day for decades now, are now being shown on mainstream TV (especially in Europe) and on social networks in the US.



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BearGoggles
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:14a, 8/21/25
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
tequila4kapp said:
We absolutely do have an interest in Israel's fate. We should arm and support them.

Serious question: what is our interest? What do we get out of the alliance with Israel?

For 50+ years, Israel has been the US's proxy in the Middle East, directly advancing US interests and shared values by projecting US power, providing extensive intelligence and military assistance, helping to win the cold war and advancing a variety of other US political and economic interests. Obviously, Israel has received tremendous benefits - I'm not suggesting otherwise.

Recently, Israel reduced the threat presented by Hezbollah and Iran, including stopping (for now) the Iranian nuclear program. Hezbollah and Iran (and their proxies) have killed hundreds of US citizens. Every US president has announced that the US policy is to prevent Iran from going nuclear. Israel has directly advanced that goal. No other country could have done that.

Israel has made massive economic and scientific contributions to the US (and the world), particularly in the medical, military and technology fields.





https://news.crunchbase.com/venture/foreign-born-entrepreneurs-drive-americas-unicorn-boom-strebulaev-stanford/

Per the article, tiny Israel has the second most unicorn companies and far and away Israel leads in the number of Unicorn companies founded abroad and moving to the US.

In particular, Israel's defense and technology industries have made massive contributions to the US.

What other alliances with non-European countries have contributed more to the US? What benefits did the US receive from those alliances?

In terms of dollars, the ROI on money given to Israel has far exceed other leading countries (notably including Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Jordan, Egypt, Ethiopia, Somalia, and other countries). 2023 $$ amounts from the article below.

Countries That Received the Most Foreign Aid From the U.S. in 2023:
[ol]
  • Ukraine ($17.2B)
  • Israel ($3.3B)
  • Jordan ($1.7B)
  • Egypt ($1.5B)
  • Ethiopia ($1.5B)
  • Somalia ($1.2B)
  • Nigeria ($1B)
  • Congo (Kinshasa) ($990M)
  • Afghanistan ($886.5M)
  • Kenya ($846M)
    • [/ol]


    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s

    It is fair to argue that the US should reduce all foreign aid. That's a different discussion for the most part.


    In plain English, this is a total pack of lies.

    Just looking at the bottom table of US aid, Israel has received over $23 Billion in US aid the last two years, you're off by orders of magnitude.

    According to the Council of Foreign Relations, the inflation-adjusted amount of US aid to Israel since its creation is over $300 Billion.

    But even worse, Israel and its foreign lobbies and domestic advocates have manipulated US policy into a long series of Forever Wars in the mideast, at a tremendous cost in US blood and treasure, over $7 Trillion wasted on these endless wars for Israel.



    We do not share the basic values that Israel has been built on as a colonial ethnostate project, the only country that shares their basic values was apartheid South Africa. Israel today is a pariah state conducting genocide, broadly hated and condemned around the world, though still popular with a small segment of Boomers, Fox-watching conservatives and Evengelical Dispensationalists.


    You endorse/share values with Hamas and Putin. Maybe sit this one out?
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    BearGoggles
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    In reply to Cal88 • 1:28a, 8/21/25
    Cal88 said:
    Freedom of religion in Israel? Try being a monk there.






    The Christian population in Israel has grown significantly since 1948. It is the only growing Christian population in the Middle East. Though not a religion, the Arab population of Israel has also grown.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel#Demographics

    In contrast, the Christian (and Jewish) population in Gaza, the West Bank, and other Arab countries has shrunk.

    The Israeli declaration of independence guarantees freedom of religion. Like the US, it is not a perfect country and there are certainly cases of discrimination. But Israel has Arab Muslims and Christians in elected office and on its courts, including its supreme court (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Kabub).

    How does that compare to Gaza, the West Bank, and other Muslim countries? How are religious minorities treated in those places? How are Christians and Jews treated in Gaza? What about LGTBQ people or people who have converted from Islam? Can they live in peace with equal rights? Do they hold leadership roles in the government? You don't have to answer that - we all know the answer.
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    BearGoggles
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    1:35a, 8/21/25
    This is the best article I've read in some time. It perfectly captures how the press and other useful idiots are apologists for Hamas.

    His conclusion: "There is a moral asymmetry in this war, and it favors Israel. Don't be misled by information warfare campaigns trying to convince you otherwise. "



    Here are some of the better parts:
    ______________________
    None of this means that everything the IDF does is justifiable. It's possible to agree with the goals of an army but condemn its methods. During the Civil War, the Union Army burned down 40 percent of Atlanta, including civilian homes. Some of that was unnecessary, even immoral. But the North was still the good guy. Not because it was the underdog, or because it suffered more war crimes than the South, but because its goalto end slaverywas fundamentally just.

    That's the case with Israel. Israel's goal is to live in peace with its neighbors. Throughout its 77-year history, it has agreed to half a dozen peace deals with the Palestinians. It voluntarily left Gaza in 2005. If it had any interest in wiping Gaza off the map, it could have done so any time in the last several decades.

    Of course, as with any army, it's not hard to find examples of IDF soldiers conducting themselves terribly. Israel's March decision to cut off all humanitarian aid to Gaza for more than two monthsin an effort to pressure Hamas to release the hostageswas a strategic mistake. And the aid distribution experiment that finally began in May has been chaotic and, because of that, largely ineffective. There are credible reports of soldiers shooting civilians who were trying to get food and accidentally went into a prohibited zone. Some of these are tragic accidents. Others may be war crimes.

    But there is a moral asymmetry here. When an IDF soldier goes berserk, he is subject to criminal punishment. Hamas's entire reason for beingits entire missionis a war crime. Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms. They have stolen enough aid from civilians to survive in their tunnels for a prolonged period of time. They are completely unaffected by the suffering of their own people.

    The greatest tragedy of this war is that the excesses of both the IDF and Hamas almost always fall on Palestinian civilians.

    That's by Hamas's design. Is it Israel's fault that its own civilians are incredibly well protected by defensive infrastructure, including the Iron Dome and bomb shelters? Is it Israel's fault that Hamas has built one of the most extensive networks of underground bomb shelters in the history of warfare, but doesn't allow its own civilians to enter them? Is it Israel's fault that Hamas uses children as lookouts, thereby turning them into combatants under the international laws of war?

    When we hold Israel alone responsible for the civilian death toll in Gazaa death toll that is the direct result of Hamas's barbaric style of warfarewe implicitly blame Israel for war crimes that were committed by Hamas.
    Hamas's strategy is to maximize suffering on its own side. It knows it cannot beat Israel on the battlefield, but it hopes that by putting its own civilians in harm's way, it can galvanize world opinion against Israel and destroy the Jewish State in the long run.

    This strategy only works if the world blames Israel for the consequences of Hamas's choices. Our moral confusion is Hamas's chief asset.
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    tequila4kapp
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    In reply to Cal88 • 6:06a, 8/21/25
    Cal88 said:
    Freedom of religion in Israel? Try being a monk there.

    You just cannot avoid an opportunity to demonstrate your hatred of Jews and Israel, can you?

    The claim was that Israel - relative to the rest of the middle east - has assorted liberal democratic freedoms, including religious freedom, and that is a reason for the US having a national interest in supporting Israel. Not whether some Jews mistreat Christians. One would think the difference between national policy and personal behavior would be obvious to anyone, much less a Cal grad. But I guess not when it comes to this particular country / religion.
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    tequila4kapp
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    In reply to BearGoggles • 6:08a, 8/21/25
    I am not sure it is even worth trying anymore. The Jew and Israel haters are seemingly immune to logic and reason.
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    Cal88
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    In reply to tequila4kapp • 6:43a, 8/21/25
    tequila4kapp said:
    Cal88 said:
    Freedom of religion in Israel? Try being a monk there.

    You just cannot avoid an opportunity to demonstrate your hatred of Jews and Israel, can you?

    The claim was that Israel - relative to the rest of the middle east - has assorted liberal democratic freedoms, including religious freedom, and that is a reason for the US having a national interest in supporting Israel. Not whether some Jews mistreat Christians. One would think the difference between national policy and personal behavior would be obvious to anyone, much less a Cal grad. But I guess not when it comes to this particular country / religion.



    I quoted the head of Israeli national security, Ben-Gvir, the guy who sets their policing standards, here it is again for you, let me know what part of this you, as a Cal grad and a professional attorney, don't understand :



    Also, those Israel "assorted liberal democratic freedoms, including religious freedom" don't seem to include the freedom from their churches being bombed, and their parish being sniped.



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    sycasey
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    In reply to tequila4kapp • 9:00a
    tequila4kapp said:
    I am not sure it is even worth trying anymore. The Jew and Israel haters are seemingly immune to logic and reason.

    Stop calling me a "Jew hater" and you can then appeal to logic and reason.
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    sycasey
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    In reply to BearGoggles • 9:13a
    BearGoggles said:
    This is the best article I've read in some time. It perfectly captures how the press and other useful idiots are apologists for Hamas.

    His conclusion: "There is a moral asymmetry in this war, and it favors Israel. Don't be misled by information warfare campaigns trying to convince you otherwise. "


    I don't disagree that this is what Hamas wants to do. But I also say the Israeli government is foolishly living up to the image that Hamas wants to set for them and therefore we should not support either.
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    Cal88
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    In reply to sycasey • 10:37a
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    BearGoggles
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    In reply to sycasey • 11:26a
    sycasey said:
    BearGoggles said:
    This is the best article I've read in some time. It perfectly captures how the press and other useful idiots are apologists for Hamas.

    His conclusion: "There is a moral asymmetry in this war, and it favors Israel. Don't be misled by information warfare campaigns trying to convince you otherwise. "


    I don't disagree that this is what Hamas wants to do. But I also say the Israeli government is foolishly living up to the image that Hamas wants to set for them and therefore we should not support either.

    Your "therefore" conclusion is deeply flawed for the reasons explained in the article. It is purportedly moral symmetry. It is odd you take that position re Israel but seemingly (based on your posts in another thread) have no problem supporting Ukraine which has its own set of moral/ethical problems including unfortunate right wing elements (just like Israel).

    And I would point out that the ideology of Hamas/Muslim brotherhood is the biggest detriment to the quality of life for the Palestinians and is a direct threat to the USA, which is all the more reason it should be opposed. Yet you don't want to pick a side because . . . Israel is different in your mind.
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    BearGoggles
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    In reply to BearGoggles • 11:27a
    double post
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    sycasey
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    In reply to BearGoggles • 11:33a
    BearGoggles said:
    sycasey said:
    BearGoggles said:
    This is the best article I've read in some time. It perfectly captures how the press and other useful idiots are apologists for Hamas.

    His conclusion: "There is a moral asymmetry in this war, and it favors Israel. Don't be misled by information warfare campaigns trying to convince you otherwise. "


    I don't disagree that this is what Hamas wants to do. But I also say the Israeli government is foolishly living up to the image that Hamas wants to set for them and therefore we should not support either.

    Your "therefore" conclusion is deeply flawed for the reasons explained in the article. It is purportedly moral symmetry. It is odd you take that position re Israel but seemingly (based on your posts in another thread) have no problem supporting Ukraine which has its own set of moral/ethical problems including unfortunate right wing elements (just like Israel).

    No, not just like Israel. Ukraine is still being invaded as we speak. They haven't bombed another country into rubble. They don't have any government officials talking about occupying anyone else's territory or trying to remove an ethnic group from the land they now occupy. Holy false equivalence, Batman!
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    BearGoggles
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    In reply to sycasey • 11:34a
    sycasey said:
    tequila4kapp said:
    I am not sure it is even worth trying anymore. The Jew and Israel haters are seemingly immune to logic and reason.

    Stop calling me a "Jew hater" and you can then appeal to logic and reason.

    I'm not sure the comment was directed at you as opposed to Cal88 who literally can't stop posting propaganda that has been disproven, makes specious claims and then doesn't respond when challenged with facts, and then uses examples of wrongdoing by an individual and ascribing that to all Israelis, all while ignoring what Hamas does.

    And just to be clear, it is possible to be antisemitic (consciously or not) or irrationally anti-Israel (i.e., imposing a different standard on Israel than other countries) without being a Jew hater.
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    Cal88
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    In reply to BearGoggles • 1:30p
    BearGoggles said:
    sycasey said:
    tequila4kapp said:
    I am not sure it is even worth trying anymore. The Jew and Israel haters are seemingly immune to logic and reason.

    Stop calling me a "Jew hater" and you can then appeal to logic and reason.

    I'm not sure the comment was directed at you as opposed to Cal88 who literally can't stop posting propaganda that has been disproven, makes specious claims and then doesn't respond when challenged with facts, and then uses examples of wrongdoing by an individual and ascribing that to all Israelis, all while ignoring what Hamas does.

    And just to be clear, it is possible to be antisemitic (consciously or not) or irrationally anti-Israel (i.e., imposing a different standard on Israel than other countries) without being a Jew hater.


    None of the facts I have posted above have been disproven, and the "examples of wrongdoing by individuals" in Israel have collectively amounted to the intentional killing of tens of thousands of children, so yes, you can ascribe those to Israeli policy, as many independent human rights organizations have, qualifying that policy as a true genocide.

    Apology of genocide is a reflection of an irrational pro-Israel stance.
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    tequila4kapp
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    1:57p
    https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1CFFySFLUy/?mibextid=wwXIfr
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    Cal88
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    In reply to BearGoggles • 2:17p
    BearGoggles said:
    sycasey said:
    BearGoggles said:
    This is the best article I've read in some time. It perfectly captures how the press and other useful idiots are apologists for Hamas.

    His conclusion: "There is a moral asymmetry in this war, and it favors Israel. Don't be misled by information warfare campaigns trying to convince you otherwise. "


    I don't disagree that this is what Hamas wants to do. But I also say the Israeli government is foolishly living up to the image that Hamas wants to set for them and therefore we should not support either.

    Your "therefore" conclusion is deeply flawed for the reasons explained in the article. It is purportedly moral symmetry. It is odd you take that position re Israel but seemingly (based on your posts in another thread) have no problem supporting Ukraine which has its own set of moral/ethical problems including unfortunate right wing elements (just like Israel).

    And I would point out that the ideology of Hamas/Muslim brotherhood is the biggest detriment to the quality of life for the Palestinians and is a direct threat to the USA, which is all the more reason it should be opposed. Yet you don't want to pick a side because . . . Israel is different in your mind.



    I would have guessed that being on the receiving end of the equivalent of 6 Hiroshima bombs in TNT might have been the biggest detriment to the quality of life for the Palestinians, but what do I know.

    The Palestinians are not a direct threat to the USA, it is the blind allegiance to Israel, which has pushed the US into Forever Wars in the mideast at a huge cost in blood and treasure that has been a huge ball and chain to US economic welfare and global standing. We blew $7 trillion plus on endless wars for Israel with nothing to show for, while China invested roughly the same amount in infrastructure projects around the world, furthering its economic and trade position.

    Furthermore, there wouldn't be any Hamas or Hezbollah if the Palestinians weren't ethnically cleansed and the Lebanese not invaded and occupied.
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    BearGoggles
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    In reply to Cal88 • 5:56p
    Cal88 said:
    BearGoggles said:
    sycasey said:
    BearGoggles said:
    This is the best article I've read in some time. It perfectly captures how the press and other useful idiots are apologists for Hamas.

    His conclusion: "There is a moral asymmetry in this war, and it favors Israel. Don't be misled by information warfare campaigns trying to convince you otherwise. "


    I don't disagree that this is what Hamas wants to do. But I also say the Israeli government is foolishly living up to the image that Hamas wants to set for them and therefore we should not support either.

    Your "therefore" conclusion is deeply flawed for the reasons explained in the article. It is purportedly moral symmetry. It is odd you take that position re Israel but seemingly (based on your posts in another thread) have no problem supporting Ukraine which has its own set of moral/ethical problems including unfortunate right wing elements (just like Israel).

    And I would point out that the ideology of Hamas/Muslim brotherhood is the biggest detriment to the quality of life for the Palestinians and is a direct threat to the USA, which is all the more reason it should be opposed. Yet you don't want to pick a side because . . . Israel is different in your mind.



    I would have guessed that being on the receiving end of the equivalent of 6 Hiroshima bombs in TNT might have been the biggest detriment to the quality of life for the Palestinians, but what do I know.

    The Palestinians are not a direct threat to the USA, it is the blind allegiance to Israel, which has pushed the US into Forever Wars in the mideast at a huge cost in blood and treasure that has been a huge ball and chain to US economic welfare and global standing. We blew $7 trillion plus on endless wars for Israel with nothing to show for, while China invested roughly the same amount in infrastructure projects around the world, furthering its economic and trade position.

    Furthermore, there wouldn't be any Hamas or Hezbollah if the Palestinians weren't ethnically cleansed and the Lebanese not invaded and occupied.

    Why did Israel start bombing? Just out of the blue, on a whim? Or did Hamas do things that led to the commencement and continuation of the bombing. For example, killing Israelis and holding hostages. If you want the bombs to stop, maybe advocate for Hamas to give up the hostages? Hamas caused this.

    The US forever wars were not conducted on behalf of Israel - more conspiracy theories from you. Israel has always been focused on Iran, even to the point that they to some extent preferred having Saddam in power as a counterbalance to Iran. And Israel had nothing to do with Afghanistan which, you might recall, was a reaction to Al Queda 9/11 attacks on the US (not Israel). You are not clear thinking.

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    BearGoggles
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    In reply to Cal88 • 6:06p
    Cal88 said:
    BearGoggles said:
    sycasey said:
    tequila4kapp said:
    I am not sure it is even worth trying anymore. The Jew and Israel haters are seemingly immune to logic and reason.

    Stop calling me a "Jew hater" and you can then appeal to logic and reason.

    I'm not sure the comment was directed at you as opposed to Cal88 who literally can't stop posting propaganda that has been disproven, makes specious claims and then doesn't respond when challenged with facts, and then uses examples of wrongdoing by an individual and ascribing that to all Israelis, all while ignoring what Hamas does.

    And just to be clear, it is possible to be antisemitic (consciously or not) or irrationally anti-Israel (i.e., imposing a different standard on Israel than other countries) without being a Jew hater.


    None of the facts I have posted above have been disproven, and the "examples of wrongdoing by individuals" in Israel have collectively amounted to the intentional killing of tens of thousands of children, so yes, you can ascribe those to Israeli policy, as many independent human rights organizations have, qualifying that policy as a true genocide.

    Apology of genocide is a reflection of an irrational pro-Israel stance.

    I posted a long explanation with citations to local news reports as to why virtually everything you wrote about Alexandrovich was false. Notably, other than making a false claim that he was the head of an intelligence agency (when he's actually the head of a department), you didn't even attempt refute anything else I wrote because the evidence is so clear.

    Did you attend and graduate from Cal? Because the lack of logic, the constant deflection to random twitter posts, and detachment from reality is striking.
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