iwantwinners said:
Anybody interested in debating immigration, policy, or the merits and truthfulness of the reported statements and circumstances around it? Anybody?
I see a side getting distracted and steering this into the trivial.
In a different thread you distinguished the President's sh*thole quote as being intended toward the countries, less their people. That's a funny distinction that I don't think signaled the virtue you intended.
You want a policy debate, which is worth having, but let's agree up front that you are likely a racists and it's your racial instincts that provide what appear to be exceptional motivation. I'm not big on accusing people of being racist, and I might be wrong, but your limited body of work here indicates a ready disregard for classes of people that suggests as much. You're going to get derided either way, may as well own it honestly and take a little pride.
I'm not overly versed on immigration policy, but debating the topic always makes me feel small, and its rising priority presents us increasingly as all the smaller at a time when we need to be getting much bigger.
Most of what I hear in opposition to immigrants is the ages-old charade that one's life is hard because of others. It's not an argument that originates with immigrants, but it's applied readily. It doesn't matter who the others are, as long as there are others. The more different the others, the better. The fact that our president is content with immigrants from Norway over those from Africa couldn't be a clearer example. He didn't argue for educated over uneducated, he argued for Norway over Africa. He's not against immigrants, he's against African immigrants. He's against different others.
When it comes to merit, are you a purist, or just opportunistically selective? I'd be impressed if, for example, as a champion of meritocracy you also supported a 100% estate tax. I don't know any that do. True purists might also oppose private education, all forms of social safety, even the idea of any system of laws whatever. After all, the first law you enact creates protections that people should in earnest be taking on themselves.
More specifically, what should we merit, and who should determine so? Is it the government that we let pick the winners and losers here? Canada and Australia are given as examples of two countries that use merit based systems, but their efforts to prioritize education and employment have proven difficult to implement, and have instead become de facto employer driven systems that while legally different are not in any meaningful way economically different from what we have here today with illegal immigration, with the exception that all of these immigrants arriving legally would get to partake fully in governmental benefits. You could even argue that immigrants who arrive illegally in some way have proven their ability to succeed or even thrive here. I know I don't have the stones to leave all that I know, to risk everything in a foreign place, where I arrive undetected, and then live in the shadows. Potentially a good meritocracy test. (I'm also willing to deal. I happily accept Canadian and Australian immigration policy if we also get Canadian medicine, and Australian gun laws.)
Are there limits to the deployment of merit-based policies? Is there any reason to restrict it to immigration? Would not most of your arguments apply to citizens as well? What use are underproductive citizens to us as a nation? Take the elderly largely, do we really have a need for them? Is there a lower return on any demographic than the elderly? except maybe neonatal infants using intensive care? By definition, anyone in the bottom 49th percentile is dragging us down and potentially has got to go. Sorry my chromosome-irregular son, we have no place for you.
The truth iwantwinners is that you and I are in the same boat. We actually need each other. You need the best of me as I do of you, because this premise of others is a false one. There are no others, there is only us.
It sounds trite, but our need to evolve beyond tribalism is fast approaching if not already past. Not to get all GOT on us here, but there are potentially bigger more pressing issues facing us as a race that need our concerted efforts if we're to come out the other end.
Finally, indulge a quick story.
My high school physics teacher shared a story from his college days were a friend got around a tough proctored final exam by submitting as his exam, a bluebook containing a letter to his mother. To his mother he sent a bluebook containing aided answers to his exam questions. In what followed, his professor agreed to accept the work sent to his mother, and in the end awarded the friend a passing grade. Question, does the friend deserve the grade he received?
My reaction for many years was no, but over time I've come to appreciate the value of the alternative.
That's all. Let the insults resume.
