bearister said:

---

Good job. Option 3: Both

---

I would honestly like to hear from a person who is still either on the fence with regard to his innocence or convinced there is another explanation. What do you see when you step back and look at the big picture? How do you conclude something other than his guilt or stupidity? And if he is either, why should he be our president?

And I am MOST interested to hear a Trump supporter take a position on this now as opposed to later after the conservative pundits start feeding the party line: if Trump is found guilty of being part of a conspiracy, if he did in fact participate at any level to get himself elected through foreign interference and either knew in advance or covered it up after the fact, will you believe it? Or will you say that it is a coup or plot by Dems/FBI? Or will you say that the investigation was illegal, and that that is more important than the crimes they uncovered? Will you say that the elections are tough and all candidates do whatever to win and that this isn't a big deal? In short, will you want Trump prosecuted for crimes (impeached and or imprisoned) or will you look for excuses, justifications, and counter arguments to still defend him? What is the limit of your support and loyalty?

I ask out of sincere curiosity because I do not understand and I am trying to hear a different perspective.

blungld said:

---

If the information that has emerged to date is the most inconvenient set of circumstantial evidence, then the president has some of the worst luck ever. He and his inner circle just happening to have continued interaction with Russians, having interconnected financial and political objectives, and ongoing secrecy and misinformation, etc...this is all just really completely coincidental?

And his lack of interest in pursuing investigation and spearheading the protection of America to make sure the Russian interference never happens again and to find the guilty parties is just what, laziness? Like OJ swearing to find Nicole's murderer and then going to play golf instead?

So if the man is totally innocent, or this is the most elaborate frame job in human history, why doesn't he at least stop doing things that can only explained by guilt? If the man is innocent why act so guilty? Quick to temper. Incoherent denials. Made up persecution. Outrage. Aligning with shady characters. Changing stories. Suppression of truth and facts. Attacks on media and critics. Continued appointment of cronies. Threats. Retreating to an inner circle of family. Being a general unsympathetic jerk. Vilifying investigators and ideals of justice. Never listening, compromising, or recruiting to his way of seeing things. Targeting his emotional appeals to the most idealogical low-information voters rather than making logical factual explanations to the academics and educated who could clear him.

If he is truly truly innocent, he could behave so much more dignified and innocent. In pure strategic terms, his choices in words and actions and tone send the message to most Americans: yes I am guilty, I am acting like a criminal. He could 100% fool people so much more easily, or project his innocence (if he is) so much more effectively...but he won't or can't.

There can only seemingly be one of two conclusions from an objective read of him: he is either as guilty as the facts and he appears, or he is really really really stupid. Maybe both.

---

I'm not a Trump supporter but let me give you a hypothetical response from a Trump supporter. Right now, the evidence in the public domain does not support conviction for colluding with the Russians (whatever the actual crime is called). No one is even alleging that the President himself took meetings with the Russians and discussed cheating the election, or even knew it was going on, if it did in fact go on. It was all subordinates acting on their own, so far as we know. As for obstruction, the evidence is strong but you know Trump has good excuses for that. He'll say he didn't really have nefarious motives for firing Comey, etc. Right now it looks like the only lock is campaign finance violations. But the GOP Senate won't convict on that alone because they will rationalize he would have won anyway - so no harm, no foul - plus if a GOP senator goes against the President he will end up like Flake and Corker, out of a job (a realization that Graham recently came to).

As for his personal behavior (the lying, the incoherency, the conflict of interest scumminess, the hypocrisy), Trump supporters might say: that's your opinion, man. We Trump supporters love the guy because he sticks it to the establishment. And even if you don't like it, it's not grounds for impeachment or criminal charges.

Right now, I am telling myself that all I should hope for is to vote Trump out of office in 2020 with a Democrat who has the balls not to pardon him, and then he gets a felony campaign finance conviction. Unless more direct evidence of obstruction and/or collusion come out, I think impeachment is a bad idea politically for the Democrats, even if the Senate would convict, which they won't. The additional evidence has to be so incontrovertible that the 35% of the public that still supports Trump collapses in disgust, or it is not worth going down the impeachment route. Plus, Pence gets the presidency if Trump is convicted by the senate. If I allow myself to dream a little, I dream of an obstruction conviction post-presidency. and If I am dreaming big, a collusion/treason conviction. But I try not to get my hopes up for that because the evidence in the public domain doesn't yet support it.

Sorry, not the Trump-supporter answer you were looking for, just wanted to vent.

I never needed to wait and see if he would rise to the occasion of Presidency, and I don't need to wait and see if he is guilty of any Russian collusion. He has always been an ashole and completely unfit to serve in any capacity for our country.

Mussolini

I go to a once a year dinner with some wealthy people that is coming up. Last year they were giddy about Trump. The stock market was making them richer so they thought the economy was booming. I heard Trump was keeping the media focused on all these fake scandals while he was busy doing the important work, behind the scenes, of reducing regulations and making the economy great again.

I wondered to myself how these smart, rich people could be so delusional. Then I remembered for some people, greed trumps all. I'm curious what the tenor will be this year. Probably more of the same.

FuzzyWuzzy said:

---

blungld said:

---

If the information that has emerged to date is the most inconvenient set of circumstantial evidence, then the president has some of the worst luck ever. He and his inner circle just happening to have continued interaction with Russians, having interconnected financial and political objectives, and ongoing secrecy and misinformation, etc...this is all just really completely coincidental?

And his lack of interest in pursuing investigation and spearheading the protection of America to make sure the Russian interference never happens again and to find the guilty parties is just what, laziness? Like OJ swearing to find Nicole's murderer and then going to play golf instead?

So if the man is totally innocent, or this is the most elaborate frame job in human history, why doesn't he at least stop doing things that can only explained by guilt? If the man is innocent why act so guilty? Quick to temper. Incoherent denials. Made up persecution. Outrage. Aligning with shady characters. Changing stories. Suppression of truth and facts. Attacks on media and critics. Continued appointment of cronies. Threats. Retreating to an inner circle of family. Being a general unsympathetic jerk. Vilifying investigators and ideals of justice. Never listening, compromising, or recruiting to his way of seeing things. Targeting his emotional appeals to the most idealogical low-information voters rather than making logical factual explanations to the academics and educated who could clear him.

If he is truly truly innocent, he could behave so much more dignified and innocent. In pure strategic terms, his choices in words and actions and tone send the message to most Americans: yes I am guilty, I am acting like a criminal. He could 100% fool people so much more easily, or project his innocence (if he is) so much more effectively...but he won't or can't.

There can only seemingly be one of two conclusions from an objective read of him: he is either as guilty as the facts and he appears, or he is really really really stupid. Maybe both.

---

I'm not a Trump supporter but let me give you a hypothetical response from a Trump supporter. Right now, the evidence in the public domain does not support conviction for colluding with the Russians (whatever the actual crime is called). No one is even alleging that the President himself took meetings with the Russians and discussed cheating the election, or even knew it was going on, if it did in fact go on. It was all subordinates acting on their own, so far as we know. As for obstruction, the evidence is strong but you know Trump has good excuses for that. He'll say he didn't really have nefarious motives for firing Comey, etc. Right now it looks like the only lock is campaign finance violations. But the GOP Senate won't convict on that alone because they will rationalize he would have won anyway - so no harm, no foul - plus if a GOP senator goes against the President he will end up like Flake and Corker, out of a job (a realization that Graham recently came to).

As for his personal behavior (the lying, the incoherency, the conflict of interest scumminess, the hypocrisy), Trump supporters might say: that's your opinion, man. We Trump supporters love the guy because he sticks it to the establishment. And even if you don't like it, it's not grounds for impeachment or criminal charges.

Right now, I am telling myself that all I should hope for is to vote Trump out of office in 2020 with a Democrat who has the balls not to pardon him, and then he gets a felony campaign finance conviction. Unless more direct evidence of obstruction and/or collusion come out, I think impeachment is a bad idea politically for the Democrats, even if the Senate would convict, which they won't. The additional evidence has to be so incontrovertible that the 35% of the public that still supports Trump collapses in disgust, or it is not worth going down the impeachment route. Plus, Pence gets the presidency if Trump is convicted by the senate. If I allow myself to dream a little, I dream of an obstruction conviction post-presidency. and If I am dreaming big, a collusion/treason conviction. But I try not to get my hopes up for that because the evidence in the public domain doesn't yet support it.

Sorry, not the Trump-supporter answer you were looking for, just wanted to vent.

---

Thanks. I agree with much that you wrote, but it doesn't answer the question I really want to know: IF he is found guilty will you believe it and will you still stand by him? With regard to his personal behavior, again I was wondering less about whether one likes it or not, but why does he act like a guilty person if he isn't?

FuzzyWuzzy said:

---

.....Right now, the evidence in the public domain does not support conviction for colluding with the Russians (whatever the actual crime is called). No one is even alleging that the President himself took meetings with the Russians and discussed cheating the election, or even knew it was going on, if it did in fact go on. It was all subordinates acting on their own, so far as we know. ....

---

FW, what you say may very well be the case, but I don't think most people have had the time to review the large dump truck full of damning circumstantial evidence that has been developed and is in the public domain (not to mention what Mueller has discovered and kept secret). You rarely prove charges like this by direct evidence. I think there is probably enough circumstantial to convict tRump of some criminal charge in the matter now, but if there currently is not, my take is it would take a mere chin whisker to connect the remaining dots necessary to dump the truckload of evidence on tRump. We shall see.


https://www.newsandguts.com/trump-russia/

bearister said:

---

FuzzyWuzzy said:

---

.....Right now, the evidence in the public domain does not support conviction for colluding with the Russians (whatever the actual crime is called). No one is even alleging that the President himself took meetings with the Russians and discussed cheating the election, or even knew it was going on, if it did in fact go on. It was all subordinates acting on their own, so far as we know. ....

---

FW, what you say may very well be the case, but I don't think most people have had the time to review the large dump truck full of damning circumstantial evidence that has been developed and is in the public domain (not to mention what Mueller has discovered and kept secret). You rarely prove charges like this by direct evidence. I think there is probably enough circumstantial to convict tRump of some criminal charge in the matter now, but if there currently is not, my take is it would take a mere chin whisker to connect the remaining dots necessary to dump the truckload of evidence on tRump. We shall see.


https://www.newsandguts.com/trump-russia/

---

No doubt we're close but we're not there yet. With a sitting President, it's probably going to take more than circumstantial evidence to take him down on criminal charges of colluding with the enemy. The political class does not like to think of our democracy as a banana republic, and throwing a predecessor POTUS in jail for corruption is what happens in banana republics, not the United States of America.

As for impeachment, we have a biased jury (the GOP-controlled Senate). They ain't convicting him on circumstantial evidence.

Impeachment is a solution by the elites. They would be the last ones to let decide this. Let the people decide Trump's fate in 2020.

dajo9 said:

---

I go to a once a year dinner with some wealthy people that is coming up. Last year they were giddy about Trump. The stock market was making them richer so they thought the economy was booming. I heard Trump was keeping the media focused on all these fake scandals while he was busy doing the important work, behind the scenes, of reducing regulations and making the economy great again.

I wondered to myself how these smart, rich people could be so delusional. Then I remembered for some people, greed trumps all. I'm curious what the tenor will be this year. Probably more of the same.

---

Some really rich guys don't get it until they end up in a basement.

Anarchistbear said:

---

Impeachment is a solution by the elites. They would be the last ones to let decide this. Let the people decide Trump's fate in 2020.

---

Why wait?
Elites, impeachment.
Non elites, lots of examples throughout history. Putin would absolutely love that!

Guilty or dumb?

Our politics need to be radically changed. Trump is just a symptom.

Embrace the turmoil. It's emancipating.

Anarchistbear said:

---

Our politics need to be radically changed. Trump is just a symptom.

Embrace the turmoil. It's emancipating.

---

This is 1st half of the 20th century thinking

You have it backwards. "Hope and Change" is what is dead.

Anarchistbear said:

---

You have it backwards. "Hope and Change" is what is dead.

---

People have voted for "Hope and Change" every four years going back to 2008. Voted for it in 2018 also.

dajo9 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

You have it backwards. "Hope and Change" is what is dead.

---

People have voted for "Hope and Change" every four years going back to 2008. Voted for it in 2018 also.

---

60% of Americans believe the country is headed in the wrong direction. That's the figure before Obama, after Obama and after Trump. Confidence in institutions are at historic lows. So, of course- given the lousy choices presented-they are going to vote for " Hope and Change " or " Make America Great Again" but they aren't getting any change just more bull$it hope, which is why they continually reaffirm we are headed in the wrong direction.

People are upset about stagnant wages. That's the issue.

Finally the press is asking the same obvious questions:

Why act guilty if you are innocent?

The Putin secrecy is not normal

blungld said:

---

Finally the press is asking the same obvious questions:

Why act guilty if you are innocent?

The Putin secrecy is not normal

---

Late night rambling/devil's advocate/what I think in my darker moments:

Yes of course this stuff is relevant. But it's CNN and Slate. They are preaching to the choir (which includes me) and I don't even watch CNN and don't read much Slate.

It goes without saying that it won't make a bit of difference to those that support Trump. Lies, fake news, witch hunts, libtards... I'm a Russian spy? Maybe you're a Russian spy!

I have a feeling it won't sway the both-siders and so called "centrists" who somehow still have votes to be swayed. And it probably won't overcome the apathy hurdle for the huge segment of voters who don't follow anything and will assume this is just more of the same mudslinging from the supporters of one party to the other, even though it is clearly something qualitatively different from the usual baseline level of scumminess and corruption.

Similarly the accelerationists who are just as down on the Democratic establishment as they are on the Republican establishment (with some cause), will not care. They are ok seeing the republic continue to rot from the center and just consider this more of the same, hoping it will lead to something better rising from the corpse (it won't).

Some of the damage from the last couple years is permanent, but not all of it. Voting, voting, voting and maybe demographic/age changes are the only hope to remove DJT and the current Republican near-stranglehold. But even if that happens, that's not enough. It will be up to the millennials to corral this ugly wave that is sweeping parts of the US and some of the rest of the world too, much as it did 80 years ago. Trump is merely a symptom of the disease. Just a particularly disgusting, festering one.

dajo9 said:

---

I go to a once a year dinner with some wealthy people that is coming up. Last year they were giddy about Trump. The stock market was making them richer so they thought the economy was booming. I heard Trump was keeping the media focused on all these fake scandals while he was busy doing the important work, behind the scenes, of reducing regulations and making the economy great again.

I wondered to myself how these smart, rich people could be so delusional. Then I remembered for some people, greed trumps all. I'm curious what the tenor will be this year. Probably more of the same.

---

Dajo,
I really look forward to your report back.
Please start a new thread so I'm sure not to miss it!
I know what you mean by the giddiness.... some people I've spoken to said, essentially, "nothing else matters." And I was like (to myself), wow, that's a tremendous character statement about you, I bet you didn't know that. it was actually a very sad thing for me to hear, because these were senior family members I have respected for decades.

FuzzyWuzzy said:

---

- plus if a GOP senator goes against the President he will end up like Flake and Corker, out of a job (a realization that Graham recently came to).

---

So, you're saying that the political party system is running our national agenda?

But, we don't elect those heads of parties. In fact, they don't answer to anyone, nor do we hardly know their names, who appoints them or pulls the strings behind the scenes.
Big problem!!

blungld said:

---

There can only seemingly be one of two conclusions from an objective read of him: he is either as guilty as the facts and he appears, or he is really really really stupid. Maybe both.

---

Watching Colbert in a skit and his new game show: Evil or Stupid

Once again, I believe the consensus response shall be BOTH!

Anarchistbear said:

---

Our politics need to be radically changed.

---

Genuine question: In what way? How would you accomplish it?

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Our politics need to be radically changed.

---

Genuine question: In what way? How would you accomplish it?

---

Our resident anarchist has a number of big government proposals to solve all our problems

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Our politics need to be radically changed.

---

Genuine question: In what way? How would you accomplish it?

---

Mussolini.
The Clemson football team could have accomplished the rare double!

dajo9 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Our politics need to be radically changed.

---

Genuine question: In what way? How would you accomplish it?

---

Our resident anarchist has a number of big government proposals to solve all our problems

---

You Republicans are funny.

concordtom said:

---

FuzzyWuzzy said:

---

- plus if a GOP senator goes against the President he will end up like Flake and Corker, out of a job (a realization that Graham recently came to).

---

So, you're saying that the political party system is running our national agenda?

But, we don't elect those heads of parties. In fact, they don't answer to anyone, nor do we hardly know their names, who appoints them or pulls the strings behind the scenes.
Big problem!!

---

We also don't elect Rush and Ann who seem to have created this shut down. And we don't elect the PACs and dark money of moneyed corporate interests that dictate policy.

Get the friggin' money out of the election and system and 90% of the country's problems go away when politicians are making their own decisions and on the basis of law and reason, not party lock-step and re-election (and future private sector compensation).

The problem is the system is rigged and everyone knows it. It's rigged because the two parties have a lock on power and are responsible to their monied masters not the people. That is why 60% continue to say we are headed in the wrong direction. The irony is that the people are ahead of the government on most of these issues- wages, health care, corporate control, corruption of the system, endless wars, lousy schools. That's why they keep voting for change and keep getting disappointed. The parties of course interpret this as victory of their ideas not what it really is- an endless repudiation of them

There are two ways to change it. One is to subvert the Democrats- the AOC model. The problem is she is greatly outnumbered . And at some point she will have to decide whether she wants to be a celebrity tweeter or a socialist. In the meantime they will grind her into liberal mush. The other problem here is that it again invests too much power into federalism, hierarchy and two parties. We are the United States not the United People. The beauty of this country is it still has regional and local culture. I spend a number of months in Mississippi listening to blues and shooting and a number in California walking in redwoods. I'd be bored with the one

The better way is to try and devolve power from DC and develop the government and associations you want locally- real democracy- like town meetings- where people decide how they want to live and control issues that affect them- environment, wages, etc. Let more ideas and parties percolate up from this and see if change can be spread. This should result in a clash of many parties and ideas at more central levels. Here AOC is the President of Queens

The system is rigged and those in control keep changing the game and the rules...as we go.

If you want change, it will likely take a historic event and follow up action. See: Great Depression, FDR, WWII, Social Security.

In fact we might be headed to another historic event soon...like a major constitutional crisis and a POTUS who is a Russkie agent. The Wing Nuts of course overplayed their hand and are boxed in by the Mushroom Nationalist and Chief P&ssy grabber. Just glad the momentum is shifting...but only if the corporate Democrats don't screw the pooch and ignore the public's push leftward. You know people are SICK AND TIRED OF EATING A CRAP SANDWICH DAILY.

Otherwise, any of you lads read Gramsci? He came up with the concept of cultural hegemony. The idea is that even if there are open and apparent need for change, culture and cultural controls prevent change. This is why the GOP and wing nuts have played the culture wars so hard and stuck to it. (And this was the basis of the Chinese Cultural Revolution...didn't work.). They understand by feeding the same old line of crap, the base will resist change....even if it's benefits them directly (see healthcare).

So here it is...Trump is going to puke all over himself. The cold war will be revived and the swing leftward is real. The key historical event will be Trump.

concordtom said:

---

I never needed to wait and see if he would rise to the occasion of Presidency, and I don't need to wait and see if he is guilty of any Russian collusion. He has always been an ashole and completely unfit to serve in any capacity for our country.

Mussolini

---

I'm not sure what the Mussolini reference is all about. Trump believes in shrinking, not expanding, the influence of the state and he's in no way the flag-planting irredentist that Il Duce was. In fact, he wants to withdraw from many of the long-standing military agreements that have seen thousands of US troops stationed on foreign soil for decades in many cases.

I'm not the political animal that many of you are, so I don't emotionalize or take the Trump presidency personally. For me, Trump fails as a statesman, and that's reason enough for concern. He's done a lot of disturbing things, but let's not fall in line with him by labeling him in a way that doesn't comport with reality.

Northside91 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

I never needed to wait and see if he would rise to the occasion of Presidency, and I don't need to wait and see if he is guilty of any Russian collusion. He has always been an ashole and completely unfit to serve in any capacity for our country.

Mussolini

---

I'm not sure what the Mussolini reference is all about. Trump believes in shrinking, not expanding, the influence of the state and he's in no way the flag-planting irredentist that Il Duce was. In fact, he wants to withdraw from many of the long-standing military agreements that have seen thousands of US troops stationed on foreign soil for decades in many cases.

I'm not the political animal that many of you are, so I don't emotionalize or take the Trump presidency personally. For me, Trump fails as a statesman, and that's reason enough for concern. He's done a lot of disturbing things, but let's not fall in line with him by labeling him in a way that doesn't comport with reality.

---

I could argue plenty of this. I mean Trump wants to militarize the border, cripple the free press, and he scapegoats minority populations. He is on the verge of declaring a new President in Venezuela and has expanded our combat activity, deferring to other autocratic rulers.

But the main point of concordtom's Mussolini comparison, I think, is how Mussolini was removed from office.

The Trump Mussolini comparison is apt...just look at the photographic evidence. It's quite remarkable really, like Trump channeled Mussolini or studied the film.