Another Mass Shooting in California

2,234 Views | 76 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by GBear4Life
oski003
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/wild-shootout-near-freeway-in-riverside-leaves-chp-officer-and-gunman-dead/ar-AAFJpha?li=BBnbfcL
bearister
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I wonder want clique Aaron Luther was eating lunch with in the hoosegow for 10 years?

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B.A. Bearacus
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oski003 said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/wild-shootout-near-freeway-in-riverside-leaves-chp-officer-and-gunman-dead/ar-AAFJpha?li=BBnbfcL
What is your honest motivation for posting about this firefight between cops and a gunman? Always terrible when cops die in the line of duty, but honestly, why are you posting this on this board?
oski003
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It is a mass shooting in California. We have been discussing this for weeks, especially in light of the Gilroy, El Paso, and Dayton mass shootings. I am adding to the discussion. Thank you.
B.A. Bearacus
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We have been discussing premeditated mass shootings where the killer's intent was to shoot and/or kill as many people as possible using weaponry meant to facilitate that. It is tragic that a cop died, but this incident involving a guy who goes berserk off the side of the road when he realizes that the cops are about to impound his car is not what we've been talking about. It's totally your prerogative to post about whatever you like, though, so I'll just leave it there.
oski003
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When people, including those on this board, publicize that the U.S. averages more than one mass shooting a day and then only discuss pre-meditated mass shooting at schools, malls, etc..., it is very misleading.

It is important to also discuss the other mass shootings in these statistics, such as the one I linked here. The mass shooting statistics also include gang violence, when multiple gang members are shot, but I am posting this one because I didn't want to focus on gang violence. I came across this story this morning.

Perhaps nobody on this board is law enforcement, so nobody should care?
BearNIt
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Every time that I hear that law enforcement has been involved in a shooting I hold my breath as I have a number of immediate family members involved in law enforcement at various levels. I know the hospital where the officers was taken and I can tell you that they did everything humanly possible to treat and save the lives of all who were injured because that is who they are.

I have questions regarding the POS who started shooting. What was he doing with an assault rifle in his truck driving around? How can a POS like him who had served time for attempted murder even get a gun let alone an assault rifle? How many more senseless deaths is it going to take before we grow some balls an enact gun laws restricting access to guns whose purpose it is to kill. I'll say it again, if your excuse for owning an assault rifle is hunting then you should stop hunting cause you are a ****ty shot. If your excuse for owning an assault weapon is for home protection then get a shotgun, you improve your chances for actually hitting something in the middle of the night. If you want to shoot for recreation get a handgun, or get a shotgun for shooting trap or skeet. Enough of this hiding behind the 2nd amendment and using it to justify the owning of a weapon that is used in a time of war to kill an enemy. How long is it going to be before someone you care about is a victim of a shooting that involves an assault weapon given the current frequency that these shootings are happening?
OaktownBear
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oski003 said:

When people, including those on this board, publicize that the U.S. averages more than one mass shooting a day and then only discuss pre-meditated mass shooting at schools, malls, etc..., it is very misleading.

It is important to also discuss the other mass shootings in these statistics, such as the one I linked here. The mass shooting statistics also include gang violence, when multiple gang members are shot, but I am posting this one because I didn't want to focus on gang violence. I came across this story this morning.

Perhaps nobody on this board is law enforcement, so nobody should care?
I don't have a problem with you posting this, but this is not a mass shooting by most definitions I found and not by the definition that creates the "one per day" statistic.

The one that has been primarily cited is the Gun Violence Archive which defines it as basically any incident with 4 fatalities or shooting injuries, excluding the shooter. This doesn't qualify. I will say, I disagree with the definition (or at least how it has been used) and I think it is misleading and when number of mass shootings is stated as one per day, I don't think this is what people think about.

There was one definition I found - the Mass Shooting Tracker - that this would qualify under. 4 fatalities or injuries, including shooter, for any reason.

Most have some limitation on the type of crime. The congressional research definition is a shooter selects four or more people and kills them in an indiscriminate manner which is basically the FBI definition of mass murder. I think this is closer to what people would think we are talking about.

Other definitions remove other crimes, like robbery, domestic violence, gang violence, etc.

Personally, I think there is value to having a category that describes someone killing multiple people for any reason and a category that describes someone who plans to go out and shoot a whole bunch of people in public. I absolutely see the value in a statistic that includes a gang hit or a domestic violence situation, but I do think using that in the wake of a story like El Paso is misleading. I would like to know how many El Paso like shootings there have been this year and how much that number is going up. I think the point is there is a qualitative difference between a shooting in furtherance of another crime vs. a shooter just going out in public and shooting at people.

I suspect you are making a political point with this, but if others wish to use the most expansive definition to make a political point, your response is fair. My argument would be that there should be a reasonable definition. I think the congressional definition is a fair one. However, it would exclude Gilroy.

Maybe the point is we should distinguish between "mass shootings" and "public shootings". Honestly, something like Gilroy should count as a public shooting even if no one had died. I want a statistic that is defined by a guy going to a public place and just shooting at people even if he is stopped early in the process. I do also want a statistic for a guy who kills several people for whatever reason because that is relevant to gun violence. When I heard the one per day stat, I pretty much knew it was misleading at least in the context it was being used.


oski003
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I don't disagree with the last two posts. I too would like honest statistics on how often events like Gilroy, Dayton, and El Paso actually happen.

I also believe that large capacity clips and semi-automatic rifles should be illegal. I further believe that if a state has a constitutional gun law, people should not be legally allowed to go to another state to buy a gun and then bring it into the state that bans it.

I also believe that the guy in the grocery store who scared everyone in the photo should have his guns taken away, at least temporarily, and should be charged with whatever crime applies (I believe there is one).
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

I further believe that if a state has a constitutional gun law, people should not be legally allowed to go to another state to buy a gun and then bring it into the state that bans it.
I think what you are really asking for is a wall. While I wish we could wall off the rest of the country from California, unfortunately there was a document written a few hundred years ago which prohibits us from doing so. One of the reasons Hawaii is safe from gun violence (gun death rate is 1/5 the mainland, gun suicide just a bit higher than that) is because you can't just drive over with your weapons from a gun loving state. When people say gun control doesn't work, what they really mean is that our constitution makes state and local gun control ineffective. Hawaii is proof that gun control (and lots of sunshine) work.
oski003
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Was the gun the Gilroy shooter used legal in California or did he break the law bringing it in? If so, which is logical, perhaps these laws already exist, and it is just a matter of enforcement, which is obviously difficult.
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

Was the gun the Gilroy shooter used legal in California or did he break the law bringing it in? If so, which is logical, perhaps these laws already exist, and it is just a matter of enforcement, which is obviously difficult.
So it would appear.

This isn't really about enforcement though since it's impossible to enforce a possession law that will prevent someone from legally purchasing a gun in Nevada and using it soon thereafter in California. Even if you were to ignore constitutionally protected privacy rights, it's impractical to expect law enforcement to be able to figure out who is bringing guns illegally from neighboring states. We share a 600+ mile border with Nevada and cannot prevent people from moving freely across state lines.

In order for gun control to truly be effective, we need a controlled border (ironic isn't it?) or Federal legislation. This is why it's so disingenuous to say that gun control never works - it's never been implemented.
oski003
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Would it help if someone had to show proof of residence in a state to buy guns in that state? Can a state require that? Or is that unconstitutional?
Golden One
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oski003 said:

It is a mass shooting in California. We have been discussing this for weeks, especially in light of the Gilroy, El Paso, and Dayton mass shootings. I am adding to the discussion. Thank you.
It's hardly a "mass shooting" incident when a suspect and a cop get into a shootout, and then other officers come in to assist.
oski003
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It is according to the statistics cited by the media.
bearister
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I will be happy to put another spin on this if it ever comes out Aaron was an Aryan Brotherhood in prison (which I have no facts on).

He wasn't a Vagos MC as initially thought.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-13/riverside-shooting-suspect-aaron-luther-criminal-history%3f_amp=true
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Golden One
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oski003 said:

It is according to the statistics cited by the media.
That really means nothing. Common sense says that a shootout between two individuals with one subsequently assisted by other cops is not a "mass shooting.
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

Would it help if someone had to show proof of residence in a state to buy guns in that state? Can a state require that? Or is that unconstitutional?


Sure but Republicans aren't going to enact any state level gun control in states where they control the government. California can't wish gun control on other states.
sp4149
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BearNIt said:

Every time that I hear that law enforcement has been involved in a shooting I hold my breath as I have a number of immediate family members involved in law enforcement at various levels. I know the hospital where the officers was taken and I can tell you that they did everything humanly possible to treat and save the lives of all who were injured because that is who they are.

I have questions regarding the POS who started shooting. What was he doing with an assault rifle in his truck driving around? How can a POS like him who had served time for attempted murder even get a gun let alone an assault rifle? ... 1*


Enough of this hiding behind the 2nd amendment and using it to justify the owning of a weapon that is used in a time of war to kill an enemy. How long is it going to be before someone you care about is a victim of a shooting that involves an assault weapon given the current frequency that these shootings are happening? 2 *
1* SoCal has for years had very large gun shows (aka the background check loophole)
During the last year, Crossroads of the West Gun Shows attracted more than half a million guests, more than any other gun show in America. They put on shows at county fairgrounds and convention centers around the west, several within a 60-90 minute drive of where the killer lived. The San Diego County communities got a three month ban on their use of SD County fairgrounds buildings but the gun show won out and are back to hosting their quarterly events.

2* Many Americans have experience with gunshot wounds, the number of daily gun shot injuries would be horrifying elsewhere in the world but we accept it as part of our culture. But Americans do not recognize the difference between a gunshot wound and an assault weapon wound; the amplification of the wound from the entry point of the high speed assault weapon bullet expanding into massive internal injuries and exit void. Maybe some graphic video images of assault weapon's carnage would make the public acknowledge that these are not hunting or sporting weapons.

AS I WROTE EARLIER, a simple solution would be to classify them as weapons of mass destruction (WMD); they have proven more deadly than some other WMDs. The NRA would be harder pressed to advocate ownership of WMDs.
bearister
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Guns are trucked into California from Nevada by the trailer load for illegal sale. The main reason there are so many pistoleros on the streets of Oaktown.
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sp4149
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oski003 said:

Would it help if someone had to show proof of residence in a state to buy guns in that state? Can a state require that? Or is that unconstitutional?
I believe Congressional Republicans like McConnel continue to push for state concealed carry permits to be valid in all 50 states. Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

It also allows out of state residents to carry weapons in areas where weapons are banned by state law. The GOP is pretty much brain dead on effective gun control.
sp4149
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bearister said:

Guns are trucked into California from Nevada by the trailer load for illegal sale. The main reason there are so many pistoleros on the streets of Oaktown.
And smuggled into Mexico where they are illegal. Maybe Mexico should demand that Trump stop smuggling illegal weapons into Mexico...
oski003
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sp4149 said:

BearNIt said:

Every time that I hear that law enforcement has been involved in a shooting I hold my breath as I have a number of immediate family members involved in law enforcement at various levels. I know the hospital where the officers was taken and I can tell you that they did everything humanly possible to treat and save the lives of all who were injured because that is who they are.

I have questions regarding the POS who started shooting. What was he doing with an assault rifle in his truck driving around? How can a POS like him who had served time for attempted murder even get a gun let alone an assault rifle? ... 1*


Enough of this hiding behind the 2nd amendment and using it to justify the owning of a weapon that is used in a time of war to kill an enemy. How long is it going to be before someone you care about is a victim of a shooting that involves an assault weapon given the current frequency that these shootings are happening? 2 *
1* SoCal has for years had very large gun shows (aka the background check loophole)
During the last year, Crossroads of the West Gun Shows attracted more than half a million guests, more than any other gun show in America. They put on shows at county fairgrounds and convention centers around the west, several within a 60-90 minute drive of where the killer lived. The San Diego County communities got a three month ban on their use of SD County fairgrounds buildings but the gun show won out and are back to hosting their quarterly events.

2* Many Americans have experience with gunshot wounds, the number of daily gun shot injuries would be horrifying elsewhere in the world but we accept it as part of our culture. But Americans do not recognize the difference between a gunshot wound and an assault weapon wound; the amplification of the wound from the entry point of the high speed assault weapon bullet expanding into massive internal injuries and exit void. Maybe some graphic video images of assault weapon's carnage would make the public acknowledge that these are not hunting or sporting weapons.

AS I WROTE EARLIER, a simple solution would be to classify them as weapons of mass destruction (WMD); they have proven more deadly than some other WMDs. The NRA would be harder pressed to advocate ownership of WMDs.


Regarding 1*, how can gun shows sell guns in California that are illegal in California? Wouldn't this be illegal?

Regarding 2*, can you post a link to these pictures that demonstrate that assault weapons are more powerful than rifles of a similar caliber?
oski003
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sp4149 said:

bearister said:

Guns are trucked into California from Nevada by the trailer load for illegal sale. The main reason there are so many pistoleros on the streets of Oaktown.
And smuggled into Mexico where they are illegal. Maybe Mexico should demand that Trump stop smuggling illegal weapons into Mexico...


Are you and Bearister implying that the only way to keep illegal guns out of California and Mexico is a nation-wide ban on such guns because they would be smuggled anyway? Are you arguing that Mexican gun laws and California gun laws do not matter?
oski003
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Golden One said:

oski003 said:

It is according to the statistics cited by the media.
That really means nothing. Common sense says that a shootout between two individuals with one subsequently assisted by other cops is not a "mass shooting.


Yes, but it is not about common sense. It is about slanting statistics to achieve an agenda.
oski003
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sp4149 said:

oski003 said:

Would it help if someone had to show proof of residence in a state to buy guns in that state? Can a state require that? Or is that unconstitutional?
I believe Congressional Republicans like McConnel continue to push for state concealed carry permits to be valid in all 50 states. Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

It also allows out of state residents to carry weapons in areas where weapons are banned by state law. The GOP is pretty much brain dead on effective gun control.


I disagree with Mitch.
Another Bear
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#moscowmitch has another name: #massacremitch

bearister
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oski003
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We just went to 4th grade maturity.
sycasey
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Another great reason to take away all the guns.
sycasey
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Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Was the gun the Gilroy shooter used legal in California or did he break the law bringing it in? If so, which is logical, perhaps these laws already exist, and it is just a matter of enforcement, which is obviously difficult.
So it would appear.

This isn't really about enforcement though since it's impossible to enforce a possession law that will prevent someone from legally purchasing a gun in Nevada and using it soon thereafter in California. Even if you were to ignore constitutionally protected privacy rights, it's impractical to expect law enforcement to be able to figure out who is bringing guns illegally from neighboring states. We share a 600+ mile border with Nevada and cannot prevent people from moving freely across state lines.

In order for gun control to truly be effective, we need a controlled border (ironic isn't it?) or Federal legislation. This is why it's so disingenuous to say that gun control never works - it's never been implemented.

AND gun control DOES work. States with tough gun laws have lower rates of gun death than states with lax gun laws. It's not as low as we'd like it to be, but it is lower. Even that great conservative punching bag, Chicago, has lower rates than large cities in red states (like New Orleans, St. Louis, etc.).

There will never be any law that 100% prevents gun violence, but there certainly are ways to lower its prevalence.
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:



Are you and Bearister implying that the only way to keep illegal guns out of California and Mexico is a nation-wide ban on such guns because they would be smuggled anyway? Are you arguing that Mexican gun laws and California gun laws do not matter?


Are you actually discussing in good faith? You ask questions and completely ignore the answers only to reformulate the question. It is of course well known that gun control has not eliminated the use of banned firearms because people can move freely about the country. Maybe you should spend five minutes researching the issue and provide us with your honest viewpoint instead of pretending to engage in this aw shucks Socratic method.
concordtom
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You give Oski a really bad name.
Please re-register using a name more fitting.
sp4149
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sycasey said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Was the gun the Gilroy shooter used legal in California or did he break the law bringing it in? If so, which is logical, perhaps these laws already exist, and it is just a matter of enforcement, which is obviously difficult.
So it would appear.

This isn't really about enforcement though since it's impossible to enforce a possession law that will prevent someone from legally purchasing a gun in Nevada and using it soon thereafter in California. Even if you were to ignore constitutionally protected privacy rights, it's impractical to expect law enforcement to be able to figure out who is bringing guns illegally from neighboring states. We share a 600+ mile border with Nevada and cannot prevent people from moving freely across state lines.

In order for gun control to truly be effective, we need a controlled border (ironic isn't it?) or Federal legislation. This is why it's so disingenuous to say that gun control never works - it's never been implemented.

AND gun control DOES work. States with tough gun laws have lower rates of gun death than states with lax gun laws. It's not as low as we'd like it to be, but it is lower. Even that great conservative punching bag, Chicago, has lower rates than large cities in red states (like New Orleans, St. Louis, etc.).

There will never be any law that 100% prevents gun violence, but there certainly are ways to lower its prevalence.
On one of my last visits to Baton Rouge a couple of years ago, there were billboards along the freeways proclaiming Baton Rouge had more murders than Chicago. For a red Duck Dynasty state like Louisiana it seemed a strange claim to fame.
sp4149
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oski003 said:

sp4149 said:

bearister said:

Guns are trucked into California from Nevada by the trailer load for illegal sale. The main reason there are so many pistoleros on the streets of Oaktown.
And smuggled into Mexico where they are illegal. Maybe Mexico should demand that Trump stop smuggling illegal weapons into Mexico...


Are you and Bearister implying that the only way to keep illegal guns out of California and Mexico is a nation-wide ban on such guns because they would be smuggled anyway? Are you arguing that Mexican gun laws and California gun laws do not matter?
My much too subtle point was that gun smuggling from the US across the border is a bigger threat to Mexico than migrant workers entering the US to work in the fields are to the US.
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