blungld said:

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But I thought it was Trump, not Pence, who negotiated this strategically brilliant one of a kind deal that others have tried to accomplish for 15 years, and he did it in 30 minutes after an emergency CYA negotiation to make the mess he created 100% by himself in a unilateral decision without DOD or State Department and at the behest of Erdongan (and Putin)?

I am so confused I thought he saved civilization by allowing dictators to Ethnic Cleanse and literally rip women out of their cars and shoot them at the side of the road--you know like kids do on the playground in a little scrap.

This POS needs to not be able to make one more decision about anything.

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Yes, this debacle is all on Trump, but Pence went over and negotiated from a position of weakness the cease fire agreement that gave Turkey everything they wanted and sold out the Kurds (who, like the Czechs in 1938, weren't represented at the negotiations concerning their future). Looks like the cease fire (that Turkey refused to call a cease fire) has already been broken. So much winning.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/pence-set-make-ceasefire-case-erdogan-after-release-tough-guy-n1067976

Republican voters largely back Trump's withdrawal from Syria:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republican-voters-are-largely-backing-trumps-withdrawal-from-syria

Of course it was a disgusting, self-destructive move from the nation's perspective. And as usual, a self-interested move by Trump. But it doesn't matter when a third of US voters have been captured by the Trump cult and default right-wing media. They are the majority of the Republican party and for the general election, the other Republicans will fall in line. The Democrats will just have to turn out their own voters in return if they hope to win.

And the talking points have now been disseminated by the usual suspects on why this was ok after all. Of course the go-to move is the fake but effective jujitsu spin of Republicans being peace-lovers who want to remove our troops from harm's way.

As if it hasn't been Republicans leading the charge to insert ourselves and destabilize the region over the last couple decades, at great cost (including death and displacement) to everyone. Several Dems went along with it at the time, which was shameful. But it's funny how in public perception, history has been re-written as if it's now more the Dems (e.g. Clinton's) fault than say, Cheney's. Of the few voices from political figures opposing the start of our wars there, most had come from the left but there's no incentive for Republicans to remember that.

But now that we're in there, if we're going to withdraw, there is (was) a right way to withdraw - gradually over time, taking pains to maximize our allies' chances of survival. Working with the UN to replace US troops with UN ones. Might have worked, might not - it's complicated. But Trump cares about none of that - he just wanted to make things work out for Erdogan (and Putin) to smooth things for his own personal self-enrichment. Pawning it off as keeping our troops safe and working towards peace is the latest in his litany of crappy lies and gaslighting that his base continues to eat up.

And eat it up they do. As I said, in my opinion, this, and all Trump's million other violations, even on the same day (G7 at his resort), don't matter because of what the Republican party has become. It's just up the Dems to rally their own voters. Republicans who are now having doubts about Trump will not save them at the end of the day.

B.A. Bearacus said:

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Disregarding Pence Deal, Turkey Launches Deadly Airstrike

A Turkish airstrike has reportedly killed five civilians hours after Trump hailed a ceasefire agreement negotiated by Vice President Pence

Quote:

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The short-lived ceasefire was agreed to shortly before Amnesty International reportedits teams on the ground had documented "damning evidence of war crimes and other violations" by Turkish forces and their allies. According to Amnesty, witnesses described indiscriminate attacks by Turkey in residential areas and on school. The report also details "a summary killing in cold blood" of a prominent Syrian-Kurdish female politician, Hevrin Khalaf, by members a Turkish-supported Syrian group.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/pence-turkey-syria-ceasefire-kurds-900820/

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p.s. Turkey refuses to call it a cease fire, instead a pause they didn't respect.

One of the more interesting ironies here is that the Kurds are practicing a kind of revolutionary hybrid of Marxist Leninist and anarchist thought- classless, anti capitalist, anti-hierarchical, women as equal partners- able to overturn council rulings if it affects women.

OneKeg said:

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Republican voters largely back Trump's withdrawal from Syria:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republican-voters-are-largely-backing-trumps-withdrawal-from-syria

Of course it was a disgusting, self-destructive move from the nation's perspective. And as usual, a self-interested move by Trump. But it doesn't matter when a third of US voters have been captured by the Trump cult and default right-wing media. They are the majority of the Republican party and for the general election, the other Republicans will fall in line. The Democrats will just have to turn out their own voters in return if they hope to win.

And the talking points have now been disseminated by the usual suspects on why this was ok after all. Of course the go-to move is the fake but effective jujitsu spin of Republicans being peace-lovers who want to remove our troops from harm's way.

As if it hasn't been Republicans leading the charge to insert ourselves and destabilize the region over the last couple decades, at great cost (including death and displacement) to everyone. Several Dems went along with it at the time, which was shameful. But it's funny how in public perception, history has been re-written as if it's now more the Dems (e.g. Clinton's) fault than say, Cheney's. Of the few voices from political figures opposing the start of our wars there, most had come from the left but there's no incentive for Republicans to remember that.

But now that we're in there, if we're going to withdraw, there is (was) a right way to withdraw - gradually over time, taking pains to maximize our allies' chances of survival. Working with the UN to replace US troops with UN ones. Might have worked, might not - it's complicated. But Trump cares about none of that - he just wanted to make things work out for Erdogan (and Putin) to smooth things for his own personal self-enrichment. Pawning it off as keeping our troops safe and working towards peace is the latest in his litany of crappy lies and gaslighting that his base continues to eat up.

And eat it up they do. As I said, in my opinion, this, and all Trump's million other violations, even on the same day (G7 at his resort), don't matter because of what the Republican party has become. It's just up the Dems to rally their own voters. Republicans who are now having doubts about Trump will not save them at the end of the day.

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The correct answer to this poll is the 41% who said they don't know enough. Why would they? Have you ever heard the Kurds mentioned in any public debate?When did our leaders discuss covert operations in Syria with us and the conflicting loyalties- we back the Kurds but folks we also backed the two groups who are killing the Kurds- one is a NATO ally, the second we armed to fight Assad, US policy is covert and transactional always has been- we have screwed the Kurds, the Hmong, the Afghans fighting Russia, the Vietnamese, Etc, etc. Frankly the Kurds will be better off without us- they will start insurgent operations against Turkey

Anarchistbear said:

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OneKeg said:

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Republican voters largely back Trump's withdrawal from Syria:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republican-voters-are-largely-backing-trumps-withdrawal-from-syria

Of course it was a disgusting, self-destructive move from the nation's perspective. And as usual, a self-interested move by Trump. But it doesn't matter when a third of US voters have been captured by the Trump cult and default right-wing media. They are the majority of the Republican party and for the general election, the other Republicans will fall in line. The Democrats will just have to turn out their own voters in return if they hope to win.

And the talking points have now been disseminated by the usual suspects on why this was ok after all. Of course the go-to move is the fake but effective jujitsu spin of Republicans being peace-lovers who want to remove our troops from harm's way.

As if it hasn't been Republicans leading the charge to insert ourselves and destabilize the region over the last couple decades, at great cost (including death and displacement) to everyone. Several Dems went along with it at the time, which was shameful. But it's funny how in public perception, history has been re-written as if it's now more the Dems (e.g. Clinton's) fault than say, Cheney's. Of the few voices from political figures opposing the start of our wars there, most had come from the left but there's no incentive for Republicans to remember that.

But now that we're in there, if we're going to withdraw, there is (was) a right way to withdraw - gradually over time, taking pains to maximize our allies' chances of survival. Working with the UN to replace US troops with UN ones. Might have worked, might not - it's complicated. But Trump cares about none of that - he just wanted to make things work out for Erdogan (and Putin) to smooth things for his own personal self-enrichment. Pawning it off as keeping our troops safe and working towards peace is the latest in his litany of crappy lies and gaslighting that his base continues to eat up.

And eat it up they do. As I said, in my opinion, this, and all Trump's million other violations, even on the same day (G7 at his resort), don't matter because of what the Republican party has become. It's just up the Dems to rally their own voters. Republicans who are now having doubts about Trump will not save them at the end of the day.

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The correct answer to this poll is the 41% who said they don't know enough. Why would they? Have you ever heard the Kurds mentioned in any public debate?When did our leaders discuss covert operations in Syria with us and the conflicting loyalties- we back the Kurds but folks we also backed the two groups who are killing the Kurds- one is a NATO ally, the second we armed to fight Assad, US policy is covert and transactional always has been- we have screwed the Kurds, the Hmong, the Afghans fighting Russia, the Vietnamese, Etc, etc. Frankly the Kurds will be better off without us- they will start insurgent operations against Turkey

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Typical mis-direction.

Absolutely have heard the Kurds mentioned in public debate - their treatment at the hands of Saddam Hussein was highlighted as part of the propaganda push that got us into the 2nd Iraq War to start with. Funny that all Republicans (and many Democrats) ate up that argument at the time and asked for seconds. Of course most of the American public has no clue - that's nothing new. But Republicans will still fall into line.

Yes we have screwed many in the past and that sucks. You think anyone of good conscience happy about the situation we put the Hmong in SE Asia and Afghans in later? But people at least realize that this was the US doing what superpowers do - attempting to act in their best interest. It was transactional based perceived national interest as you say.

This time, it's not transactional. Well, not for the attempted benefit of the US anyway. For the benefit of Erdogan and Putin (to gladly fill the vacuum) certainly. These bloodthirsty dictators are gloating. And the US has not only lost an ally, but gained nothing that could not have been gained in the more orderly withdrawal with some measure of UN replacement that our own forces were expecting. We have also emboldened the bad actors in the region to boot.

Well Trump has gained something I guess. And that's all that matters to him. All the retcon gaslighting and misdirection will not take away from the fact that our foreign policy has shifted under Trump to being transactional purely to benefit the President's own personal interests, which align with Erdogan's and Putin's, as he has made clear over and over again.

You say the Kurds are better off without us. How nice it is to say that from a point of safety. You should let the Kurds speak for themselves. I'm sure loads of Kurds must be saying how thrilled they are about US actions in the last week.

Turkey may have used chemical weapons on the Kurdish civilians Trump left vulnerable

• The Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) is investigating the possible use of chemical weapons in northeastern Syria.
• The OPCW said that it was "aware of the situation and is collecting information with regard to possible use of chemical weapons," but cautioned that it has "not yet determined the credibility of these allegations."
• Images from a hospital in a Syrian border town showed children with horrific burns that may be consistent with white phosphorus, a chemical that can cause excruciating burns if it touches human skin.

The Kurds were never get their homeland under any US administration because of Turkey. Nobody was going to go against a NATO ally which is why the PKK was labeled a terrorist organization by Turkey and the US. What Trump did was brutal and reprehensible but they were going to get screwed because we were over with them and yes I agree it is a Trump- Erdogan deal. The whole Syrian regime change adventure was a complete disaster.

Another Bear said:

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Turkey may have used chemical weapons on the Kurdish civilians Trump left vulnerable

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Sounds about right. T described everything as moving towards the "ultimate solution."

Anarchistbear said:

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The Kurds were never get their homeland under any US administration because of Turkey. Nobody was going to go against a NATO ally which is why the PKK was labeled a terrorist organization by Turkey and the US. What Trump did was brutal and reprehensible but they were going to get screwed because we were over with them and yes I agree it is a Trump- Erdogan deal. The whole Syrian regime change adventure was a complete disaster.

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I agree with the bolded and unfortunately mostly agree with the rest. Wish you had led with this - I perhaps wrongly suspected you were doing Cal88-style Trump/Putin water-carrying from your earlier post.

When Trump stops raising the military budget and stops waging war in Yemen with the Saudis I'll believe that he is an isolationist

Anarchistbear said:

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When Trump stops raising the military budget and stops waging war in Yemen with the Saudis I'll believe that he is an isolationist

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While reducing military spending and no longer helping another brutal regime in KSA would probably be good (depending on how they are done - like don't slash the VA budget!)...

Please don't believe for a second that Trump is a principled isolationist even if he chooses those paths. He will be doing it for his own personal self-interest if he does, and for the interest of his dictator and oligarch sponsors. That's all he is - he does not have any separate abstract policy or ideology motives.

Kleptocrat crime-boss/cult leader, nothing more. Unfortunately, that's all it takes. Perhaps that's all it has ever taken.

Anarchistbear said:

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When Trump stops raising the military budget and stops waging war in Yemen with the Saudis I'll believe that he is an isolationist

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Amen to that.

Mike Pence can always be relied on in a crisis.

I always seek out opinions different from my own:

What Trump Actually Gets Right About Syria


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/18/trump-syria-turkey-kurds-news-analysis-229858

bearister said:

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I always seek out opinions different from my own:

What Trump Actually Gets Right About Syria


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/18/trump-syria-turkey-kurds-news-analysis-229858

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What part of it was different?

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

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bearister said:

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I always seek out opinions different from my own:

What Trump Actually Gets Right About Syria


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/18/trump-syria-turkey-kurds-news-analysis-229858

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What part of it was different?

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tRump getting something right about anything.

Russia and Turkey capitalize on America's Syria exit - Axios


https://www.axios.com/russia-turkey-syria-deal-buffer-zone-kurds-ypg-c144cd8e-d23d-469a-aee9-d0277f508ad2.html

Opinion | Trump's Syria Trifecta: A Win for Putin, a Loss for the Kurds and Lots of Uncertainty for Our Allies - The New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/22/opinion/trump-syria-turkey.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/22/opinion/trump-syria-turkey.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

Is Putin the New King of the Middle East? Patrick J. Buchanan Official Website


https://buchanan.org/blog/is-putin-the-new-king-of-the-middle-east-137628

Jesus...Trump lifted sanctions on Turkey and said the cease fire works.

So is appears that the very allies that fought with us for five years and lost 11,000 people, provided the very intelligence that allowed the Idiot in Chief to have his day in the sun. Reports say that it was a Kudish asset that provided the location, building layouts, and DNA proof that he was a trusted associate of al Baghdadi. It was this assest's information gave the exact location of al Baghdadi and allowed U.S. Special Forces to kill the target and apprehend two other assets which can provide an enormous amount of intelligence to the U.S. miitary. It's funny that the Kurds got barely a mention while the Idiot in Chief made sure to acknowledge Turkey, Russia, and others. It is more amazing that after being betrayed the Kurds are willing to provide information to the U.S. military, the same military that was pelted with stones as they left Kurdish men, women, and children, to face the Turks, Syrians, and Russians, after the Idiot in Chief betrayed them. The U.S. soldiers that have fought side by side with the Kurds want to fight with their allies.

Watching the Jonathan Swan interview of the President of Iraq, Barham Salih, a Kurd. Do you know what is depressing? That Salih is more intelligent and polished than the POTUS by a factor of 10.

Not surprised. The world laughs at what is going on in the White House.

sonofabear51 said:

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Not surprised. The world laughs at what is going on in the White House.

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We had cousins visit from Switzerland. They said Trump seemed very embarrassing for America.