LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Sycasey, while resting in the comforts of their safe neighborhood

---

I live in Oakland in a mixed neighborhood (not in the hills). Some storefront windows were smashed a few blocks away from me. You've made this claim before about me and it's all wrong.

I just don't live in fear. I take the benefits of living in a vibrant, diverse city and accept that there are drawbacks as well.

---

sycasey, if the looters and bandits were to come on to your block, do you think they would show compassion to you because of your views?

---

Probably not? What's your point?

---

My point is that people who claim to be sympathetic to the looters probably feel that those sentiments are returned in kind. I think that although you are against crime in principle, you feel a certain kinship with them which you probably think is also shared by them towards you. I don't know you, but if you're typical of those on this board you are well-educated; not black; and in the 80th percentile of income and net worth (or likely higher). I believe those stats alone disqualify you from receiving any sympathy from the marauders. God forbid, if you should feel their wrath even in some small way, I would be willing to bet that you would carefully re-examine your views and what led you to form them in the first place. I think you would feel duped. I've seen it happen countless times.

---

Since Black owned business get vandalized, I don't know why you think anyone thinks they will receive or deserve any particular sympathy. Frankly, I'm shocked people in Oakland haven't yet started moving into affluent areas and vandalizing.

It is quite simple. The next time a cop kills a Black person on film like George Floyd, there will be violence and looting in the streets. The way to stop it is to stop the injustice. I will not change my tune because the way to protect my house is to prevent the anger from boiling over. I cannot protect my house from a mob on my own and there aren't enough cops to do it.

---

Yes, the injustice has to be stopped. You're a smart guy and willing to stray from orthodoxy when needed. Let me ask you something: The last Republican to be elected mayor of Minneapolis was in 1957. There were 5 years of "Independent" leadership. The rest were democrats. 54 years worth. Ilhan Omar represents Minneapolis as Congresswoman of the 5th district. Keith Ellison is attorney general. They have a democratic governor. Both US Senators are democrats, including the powerful Amy Klobuchar. Now tell me, with a 5-star democrat roster like this, and 54 years of democrat rule within the city, and a black police chief, how in the world have they been so unsuccessful in shaping a police force to conform to the wants, needs, and ideals of their community? This is a gargantuan failure and it repeats itself in every damn democratic-run urban locale in this nation. It's on display for all to see. Why is this so, Oak? Does it not cause you to question any of your beliefs?

---

Do you think I don't know there are racist Democrats? This is a nationwide problem and hits Democratic areas as well as Republican areas. Here is why I think your argument is silly.

1. A large majority of cops are Republicans. A large majority of police leadership are Republicans. Police unions are very strong. The fight against police review boards has been brutal. It is naive to think that law enforcement does not have a lot of power that it takes a lot of unified public will to counter.

2. Too many Whites of all political stripes simply don't believe the Black community over the cops. Cops do not behave this way in the White community. It has been a long road to scratch the surface on understanding,

3. So great. Minnesota is Democrat. I could name scores of Republican places that are far worse in their behavior toward minorities. And many more who don't have the occurrences because they don't have the minorities.

4. Republicans almost unanimously come to the defense of the cops unless it is so obviously bad that it cant be denied, and then you get a little over half. Even with Floyd, a far higher percentage of Democrats say the cops were wrong than Republicans.

5. Democrats are not a monolith and are far more diverse in opinion than Republicans. Those of us that have been trying to fix the problem are fully aware that the Democrats have just begun to do so. It has been a long fight. But the difference is we have made headway in the Democratic party. Police practices have not improved under every Democratic regime but they have improved under some and they have not improved under Republicans. More and more rank and file are seeing this as an important issue while Republicans continue unmoved. Polling shows basically zero sympathy for the Black community on this issue.

To put it plainly, Democrats have not done enough. Democrats have moved too slowly. But they have moved. There is hope. There is no hope within the Republican Party. Urban police departments came from a very dark place and many have them have improved tremendously while still not improving enough.

I get the argument because conservatives want to suppress the Black vote. And thank you because the Democrats will be stronger by working harder to earn the Black vote. But the argument is disingenuous The Democrats are trying to do X. The Republicans are trying to impede X. If I care about X, I'm not voting for the one who actively fights X, because the other hasn't accomplished X.

---

Man you're getting all torqued up. You're all over the place. Are you saying that Ilhan Omar, Keith Ellison, Tim Walz, and Amy Klobuchar are the wrong kind (racist) Democrats and that's why they've failed? In which cities have Dems made progress? Name them. Are you telling me that if Giuliani was mayor of NYC that the results of the past week would be the same? Yeah right. Ask any New Yorker if he didn't turn things around.

Democrat policies hurt the very people they claim they're trying to help. It's all talk Oak.

---

I don't know all their records. I am saying historically some of the Democrats have been on the wrong side on the issue. I'm saying that the job of those on the right side isn't finished. I'm saying it is disingenuous to argue that because Democrats haven't finished their job while republicans have fought against them that the blame is on Democrats. I'm saying that where police practices have been improved Democrats have been behind it.

I view your argument as the equivalent of me saying to people who want to build a wall that they should vote for Biden because Trump hasn't built a wall. I won't do that. I don't want a wall. Biden doesn't want a wall. Democrats have fought the wall as hard as they could. If people want a wall, they should vote for Trump.

If people want police reform they should vote Democrat and continue the fight within the Democratic party because the Republicans actively are against police reform.

OaktownBear said:

---

If people want police reform they should vote Democrat and continue the fight within the Democratic party because the Republicans actively are against police reform.

---

Now you aren't being charitable.

Some prominent Republicans are clearly for policing reform. Just a few days ago, Tom Cotton said he was in favor of "no quarter" orders and augmenting police with the military. That's a pretty big reform (and one that wannabe war criminals would applaud).

Second, Trump himself has given advice on how to reform the handling of detainees. Some of NY's finest seem to enjoy the message. It would seem to have favor with people who think that police brutality is the solution for protests against police brutality.

OaktownBear said:

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LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Sycasey, while resting in the comforts of their safe neighborhood

---

I live in Oakland in a mixed neighborhood (not in the hills). Some storefront windows were smashed a few blocks away from me. You've made this claim before about me and it's all wrong.

I just don't live in fear. I take the benefits of living in a vibrant, diverse city and accept that there are drawbacks as well.

---

sycasey, if the looters and bandits were to come on to your block, do you think they would show compassion to you because of your views?

---

Probably not? What's your point?

---

My point is that people who claim to be sympathetic to the looters probably feel that those sentiments are returned in kind. I think that although you are against crime in principle, you feel a certain kinship with them which you probably think is also shared by them towards you. I don't know you, but if you're typical of those on this board you are well-educated; not black; and in the 80th percentile of income and net worth (or likely higher). I believe those stats alone disqualify you from receiving any sympathy from the marauders. God forbid, if you should feel their wrath even in some small way, I would be willing to bet that you would carefully re-examine your views and what led you to form them in the first place. I think you would feel duped. I've seen it happen countless times.

---

Since Black owned business get vandalized, I don't know why you think anyone thinks they will receive or deserve any particular sympathy. Frankly, I'm shocked people in Oakland haven't yet started moving into affluent areas and vandalizing.

It is quite simple. The next time a cop kills a Black person on film like George Floyd, there will be violence and looting in the streets. The way to stop it is to stop the injustice. I will not change my tune because the way to protect my house is to prevent the anger from boiling over. I cannot protect my house from a mob on my own and there aren't enough cops to do it.

---

Yes, the injustice has to be stopped. You're a smart guy and willing to stray from orthodoxy when needed. Let me ask you something: The last Republican to be elected mayor of Minneapolis was in 1957. There were 5 years of "Independent" leadership. The rest were democrats. 54 years worth. Ilhan Omar represents Minneapolis as Congresswoman of the 5th district. Keith Ellison is attorney general. They have a democratic governor. Both US Senators are democrats, including the powerful Amy Klobuchar. Now tell me, with a 5-star democrat roster like this, and 54 years of democrat rule within the city, and a black police chief, how in the world have they been so unsuccessful in shaping a police force to conform to the wants, needs, and ideals of their community? This is a gargantuan failure and it repeats itself in every damn democratic-run urban locale in this nation. It's on display for all to see. Why is this so, Oak? Does it not cause you to question any of your beliefs?

---

Do you think I don't know there are racist Democrats? This is a nationwide problem and hits Democratic areas as well as Republican areas. Here is why I think your argument is silly.

1. A large majority of cops are Republicans. A large majority of police leadership are Republicans. Police unions are very strong. The fight against police review boards has been brutal. It is naive to think that law enforcement does not have a lot of power that it takes a lot of unified public will to counter.

2. Too many Whites of all political stripes simply don't believe the Black community over the cops. Cops do not behave this way in the White community. It has been a long road to scratch the surface on understanding,

3. So great. Minnesota is Democrat. I could name scores of Republican places that are far worse in their behavior toward minorities. And many more who don't have the occurrences because they don't have the minorities.

4. Republicans almost unanimously come to the defense of the cops unless it is so obviously bad that it cant be denied, and then you get a little over half. Even with Floyd, a far higher percentage of Democrats say the cops were wrong than Republicans.

5. Democrats are not a monolith and are far more diverse in opinion than Republicans. Those of us that have been trying to fix the problem are fully aware that the Democrats have just begun to do so. It has been a long fight. But the difference is we have made headway in the Democratic party. Police practices have not improved under every Democratic regime but they have improved under some and they have not improved under Republicans. More and more rank and file are seeing this as an important issue while Republicans continue unmoved. Polling shows basically zero sympathy for the Black community on this issue.

To put it plainly, Democrats have not done enough. Democrats have moved too slowly. But they have moved. There is hope. There is no hope within the Republican Party. Urban police departments came from a very dark place and many have them have improved tremendously while still not improving enough.

I get the argument because conservatives want to suppress the Black vote. And thank you because the Democrats will be stronger by working harder to earn the Black vote. But the argument is disingenuous The Democrats are trying to do X. The Republicans are trying to impede X. If I care about X, I'm not voting for the one who actively fights X, because the other hasn't accomplished X.

---

Man you're getting all torqued up. You're all over the place. Are you saying that Ilhan Omar, Keith Ellison, Tim Walz, and Amy Klobuchar are the wrong kind (racist) Democrats and that's why they've failed? In which cities have Dems made progress? Name them. Are you telling me that if Giuliani was mayor of NYC that the results of the past week would be the same? Yeah right. Ask any New Yorker if he didn't turn things around.

Democrat policies hurt the very people they claim they're trying to help. It's all talk Oak.

---

I don't know all their records. I am saying historically some of the Democrats have been on the wrong side on the issue. I'm saying that the job of those on the right side isn't finished. I'm saying it is disingenuous to argue that because Democrats haven't finished their job while republicans have fought against them that the blame is on Democrats. I'm saying that where police practices have been improved Democrats have been behind it.

I view your argument as the equivalent of me saying to people who want to build a wall that they should vote for Biden because Trump hasn't built a wall. I won't do that. I don't want a wall. Biden doesn't want a wall. Democrats have fought the wall as hard as they could. If people want a wall, they should vote for Trump.

If people want police reform they should vote Democrat and continue the fight within the Democratic party because the Republicans actively are against police reform.

---

That's fair because Democrats in CA, WA,, NY only had the last decade to make some changes, and we are seeing that clear progress has been made. At this rate, they will only need 2,000 more years. You think this is a Democrat and Republican issue and not an issue of union/meritocracy and racial profiling in police culture. Making this a political issue implies that the Democrats are any better. Both parties have sucked at fixing the problem.

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Sycasey, while resting in the comforts of their safe neighborhood

---

I live in Oakland in a mixed neighborhood (not in the hills). Some storefront windows were smashed a few blocks away from me. You've made this claim before about me and it's all wrong.

I just don't live in fear. I take the benefits of living in a vibrant, diverse city and accept that there are drawbacks as well.

---

sycasey, if the looters and bandits were to come on to your block, do you think they would show compassion to you because of your views?

---

Probably not? What's your point?

---

My point is that people who claim to be sympathetic to the looters probably feel that those sentiments are returned in kind. I think that although you are against crime in principle, you feel a certain kinship with them which you probably think is also shared by them towards you. I don't know you, but if you're typical of those on this board you are well-educated; not black; and in the 80th percentile of income and net worth (or likely higher). I believe those stats alone disqualify you from receiving any sympathy from the marauders. God forbid, if you should feel their wrath even in some small way, I would be willing to bet that you would carefully re-examine your views and what led you to form them in the first place. I think you would feel duped. I've seen it happen countless times.

---

Since Black owned business get vandalized, I don't know why you think anyone thinks they will receive or deserve any particular sympathy. Frankly, I'm shocked people in Oakland haven't yet started moving into affluent areas and vandalizing.

It is quite simple. The next time a cop kills a Black person on film like George Floyd, there will be violence and looting in the streets. The way to stop it is to stop the injustice. I will not change my tune because the way to protect my house is to prevent the anger from boiling over. I cannot protect my house from a mob on my own and there aren't enough cops to do it.

---

Yes, the injustice has to be stopped. You're a smart guy and willing to stray from orthodoxy when needed. Let me ask you something: The last Republican to be elected mayor of Minneapolis was in 1957. There were 5 years of "Independent" leadership. The rest were democrats. 54 years worth. Ilhan Omar represents Minneapolis as Congresswoman of the 5th district. Keith Ellison is attorney general. They have a democratic governor. Both US Senators are democrats, including the powerful Amy Klobuchar. Now tell me, with a 5-star democrat roster like this, and 54 years of democrat rule within the city, and a black police chief, how in the world have they been so unsuccessful in shaping a police force to conform to the wants, needs, and ideals of their community? This is a gargantuan failure and it repeats itself in every damn democratic-run urban locale in this nation. It's on display for all to see. Why is this so, Oak? Does it not cause you to question any of your beliefs?

---

Do you think I don't know there are racist Democrats? This is a nationwide problem and hits Democratic areas as well as Republican areas. Here is why I think your argument is silly.

1. A large majority of cops are Republicans. A large majority of police leadership are Republicans. Police unions are very strong. The fight against police review boards has been brutal. It is naive to think that law enforcement does not have a lot of power that it takes a lot of unified public will to counter.

2. Too many Whites of all political stripes simply don't believe the Black community over the cops. Cops do not behave this way in the White community. It has been a long road to scratch the surface on understanding,

3. So great. Minnesota is Democrat. I could name scores of Republican places that are far worse in their behavior toward minorities. And many more who don't have the occurrences because they don't have the minorities.

4. Republicans almost unanimously come to the defense of the cops unless it is so obviously bad that it cant be denied, and then you get a little over half. Even with Floyd, a far higher percentage of Democrats say the cops were wrong than Republicans.

5. Democrats are not a monolith and are far more diverse in opinion than Republicans. Those of us that have been trying to fix the problem are fully aware that the Democrats have just begun to do so. It has been a long fight. But the difference is we have made headway in the Democratic party. Police practices have not improved under every Democratic regime but they have improved under some and they have not improved under Republicans. More and more rank and file are seeing this as an important issue while Republicans continue unmoved. Polling shows basically zero sympathy for the Black community on this issue.

To put it plainly, Democrats have not done enough. Democrats have moved too slowly. But they have moved. There is hope. There is no hope within the Republican Party. Urban police departments came from a very dark place and many have them have improved tremendously while still not improving enough.

I get the argument because conservatives want to suppress the Black vote. And thank you because the Democrats will be stronger by working harder to earn the Black vote. But the argument is disingenuous The Democrats are trying to do X. The Republicans are trying to impede X. If I care about X, I'm not voting for the one who actively fights X, because the other hasn't accomplished X.

---

Man you're getting all torqued up. You're all over the place. Are you saying that Ilhan Omar, Keith Ellison, Tim Walz, and Amy Klobuchar are the wrong kind (racist) Democrats and that's why they've failed? In which cities have Dems made progress? Name them. Are you telling me that if Giuliani was mayor of NYC that the results of the past week would be the same? Yeah right. Ask any New Yorker if he didn't turn things around.

Democrat policies hurt the very people they claim they're trying to help. It's all talk Oak.

---

I don't know all their records. I am saying historically some of the Democrats have been on the wrong side on the issue. I'm saying that the job of those on the right side isn't finished. I'm saying it is disingenuous to argue that because Democrats haven't finished their job while republicans have fought against them that the blame is on Democrats. I'm saying that where police practices have been improved Democrats have been behind it.

I view your argument as the equivalent of me saying to people who want to build a wall that they should vote for Biden because Trump hasn't built a wall. I won't do that. I don't want a wall. Biden doesn't want a wall. Democrats have fought the wall as hard as they could. If people want a wall, they should vote for Trump.

If people want police reform they should vote Democrat and continue the fight within the Democratic party because the Republicans actively are against police reform.

---

Well, I can't argue with "Democrats haven't finished their job." Although 54 years seems like enough time in the case of Minneapolis.

calbear93 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Sycasey, while resting in the comforts of their safe neighborhood

---

I live in Oakland in a mixed neighborhood (not in the hills). Some storefront windows were smashed a few blocks away from me. You've made this claim before about me and it's all wrong.

I just don't live in fear. I take the benefits of living in a vibrant, diverse city and accept that there are drawbacks as well.

---

sycasey, if the looters and bandits were to come on to your block, do you think they would show compassion to you because of your views?

---

Probably not? What's your point?

---

My point is that people who claim to be sympathetic to the looters probably feel that those sentiments are returned in kind. I think that although you are against crime in principle, you feel a certain kinship with them which you probably think is also shared by them towards you. I don't know you, but if you're typical of those on this board you are well-educated; not black; and in the 80th percentile of income and net worth (or likely higher). I believe those stats alone disqualify you from receiving any sympathy from the marauders. God forbid, if you should feel their wrath even in some small way, I would be willing to bet that you would carefully re-examine your views and what led you to form them in the first place. I think you would feel duped. I've seen it happen countless times.

---

Since Black owned business get vandalized, I don't know why you think anyone thinks they will receive or deserve any particular sympathy. Frankly, I'm shocked people in Oakland haven't yet started moving into affluent areas and vandalizing.

It is quite simple. The next time a cop kills a Black person on film like George Floyd, there will be violence and looting in the streets. The way to stop it is to stop the injustice. I will not change my tune because the way to protect my house is to prevent the anger from boiling over. I cannot protect my house from a mob on my own and there aren't enough cops to do it.

---

Yes, the injustice has to be stopped. You're a smart guy and willing to stray from orthodoxy when needed. Let me ask you something: The last Republican to be elected mayor of Minneapolis was in 1957. There were 5 years of "Independent" leadership. The rest were democrats. 54 years worth. Ilhan Omar represents Minneapolis as Congresswoman of the 5th district. Keith Ellison is attorney general. They have a democratic governor. Both US Senators are democrats, including the powerful Amy Klobuchar. Now tell me, with a 5-star democrat roster like this, and 54 years of democrat rule within the city, and a black police chief, how in the world have they been so unsuccessful in shaping a police force to conform to the wants, needs, and ideals of their community? This is a gargantuan failure and it repeats itself in every damn democratic-run urban locale in this nation. It's on display for all to see. Why is this so, Oak? Does it not cause you to question any of your beliefs?

---

Do you think I don't know there are racist Democrats? This is a nationwide problem and hits Democratic areas as well as Republican areas. Here is why I think your argument is silly.

1. A large majority of cops are Republicans. A large majority of police leadership are Republicans. Police unions are very strong. The fight against police review boards has been brutal. It is naive to think that law enforcement does not have a lot of power that it takes a lot of unified public will to counter.

2. Too many Whites of all political stripes simply don't believe the Black community over the cops. Cops do not behave this way in the White community. It has been a long road to scratch the surface on understanding,

3. So great. Minnesota is Democrat. I could name scores of Republican places that are far worse in their behavior toward minorities. And many more who don't have the occurrences because they don't have the minorities.

4. Republicans almost unanimously come to the defense of the cops unless it is so obviously bad that it cant be denied, and then you get a little over half. Even with Floyd, a far higher percentage of Democrats say the cops were wrong than Republicans.

5. Democrats are not a monolith and are far more diverse in opinion than Republicans. Those of us that have been trying to fix the problem are fully aware that the Democrats have just begun to do so. It has been a long fight. But the difference is we have made headway in the Democratic party. Police practices have not improved under every Democratic regime but they have improved under some and they have not improved under Republicans. More and more rank and file are seeing this as an important issue while Republicans continue unmoved. Polling shows basically zero sympathy for the Black community on this issue.

To put it plainly, Democrats have not done enough. Democrats have moved too slowly. But they have moved. There is hope. There is no hope within the Republican Party. Urban police departments came from a very dark place and many have them have improved tremendously while still not improving enough.

I get the argument because conservatives want to suppress the Black vote. And thank you because the Democrats will be stronger by working harder to earn the Black vote. But the argument is disingenuous The Democrats are trying to do X. The Republicans are trying to impede X. If I care about X, I'm not voting for the one who actively fights X, because the other hasn't accomplished X.

---

Man you're getting all torqued up. You're all over the place. Are you saying that Ilhan Omar, Keith Ellison, Tim Walz, and Amy Klobuchar are the wrong kind (racist) Democrats and that's why they've failed? In which cities have Dems made progress? Name them. Are you telling me that if Giuliani was mayor of NYC that the results of the past week would be the same? Yeah right. Ask any New Yorker if he didn't turn things around.

Democrat policies hurt the very people they claim they're trying to help. It's all talk Oak.

---

I don't know all their records. I am saying historically some of the Democrats have been on the wrong side on the issue. I'm saying that the job of those on the right side isn't finished. I'm saying it is disingenuous to argue that because Democrats haven't finished their job while republicans have fought against them that the blame is on Democrats. I'm saying that where police practices have been improved Democrats have been behind it.

I view your argument as the equivalent of me saying to people who want to build a wall that they should vote for Biden because Trump hasn't built a wall. I won't do that. I don't want a wall. Biden doesn't want a wall. Democrats have fought the wall as hard as they could. If people want a wall, they should vote for Trump.

If people want police reform they should vote Democrat and continue the fight within the Democratic party because the Republicans actively are against police reform.

---

That's fair because Democrats in CA, WA,, NY only had the last decade to make some changes, and we are seeing that clear progress has been made. At this rate, they will only need 2,000 more years. You think this is a Democrat and Republican issue and not an issue of union/meritocracy and racial profiling in police culture. Making this a political issue implies that the Democrats are any better. Both parties have sucked at fixing the problem.

---

It absolutely is an issue within the unions and in profiling and the Democrats have sucked. The Republicans have sucked more. I think that Lunchtime's post was great and there are a lot more issues.

I stand wholeheartedly behind Democrats support of workers and I stand wholeheartedly behind their support of workers right to unionize and the union's right to bargain. One place where Democrats too often fail is in conflating supporting union's right to bargain with supporting all the union's positions. Our representatives should support the union's right to bargain as hard as they can for the benefit of their workers. But when they go to the bargaining table they should be on our side in bargaining for the benefit of the government as an employer and the people overall. Unfortunately in a political system dominated by money, there is no money for that middle position. Unions give money to politicians that do whatever hey want. the other side gives money for politicians that will kneecap unions.

In most elections in my lifetime politicians have fought all over each other to win support from police and police unions. they do it because it has played well with the voting base. And the voting base has put too much trust in police leadership who have no incentive or desire.to make the changes Lunchtime discussed.

The bottomline is that challenging the police has been a political loser forever. Maybe that is starting to change. Mayor Pete had a campaign that essentially was not able to get off the ground once he moved to states with a measurable Black population because as mayor he caved to those fighting against police reform. And I think his profile, without rehabilitation, is going to be a non-starter in the Democratic primary among both Blacks and Whites by next cycle. The thing is that there are many cops saying a lot of the same things that Lunchtime said. This is not about individual cops being bad. Frankly, I think if we addressed the issues that Lunchtime raised the vast majority of cops would be happier in their jobs.

That being said, I stand by what I said. The polling among Republican rank and file shows little appetite for police reform. Very few Republican politicians have made an effort. Right now, if you want change to come from politics, Democrats are the only ones entertaining it. Again, I go back to the wall. You aren't going to get a meaningful wall because enough Republicans think it is pointless so they don't push the issue. But you certainly aren't getting a wall from the Democrats.

Which does not mean this is a Democrat issue. In my opinion the best place for change is from young officers of all political persuasions entering the police force with new ideas and attitudes Young Democrats AND Republicans are far more likely to make meaningful change in this area. I have far more hope on this particular issue dealing with young Republicans than old Democrats. But as Lunchtime portrayed it is very hard for young officers to make meaningful change. Mostly, what they can do is be the best cops they can be and wait for the day they have numbers.

I just don't think we have that long to wait.

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Sycasey, while resting in the comforts of their safe neighborhood

---

I live in Oakland in a mixed neighborhood (not in the hills). Some storefront windows were smashed a few blocks away from me. You've made this claim before about me and it's all wrong.

I just don't live in fear. I take the benefits of living in a vibrant, diverse city and accept that there are drawbacks as well.

---

sycasey, if the looters and bandits were to come on to your block, do you think they would show compassion to you because of your views?

---

Probably not? What's your point?

---

My point is that people who claim to be sympathetic to the looters probably feel that those sentiments are returned in kind. I think that although you are against crime in principle, you feel a certain kinship with them which you probably think is also shared by them towards you. I don't know you, but if you're typical of those on this board you are well-educated; not black; and in the 80th percentile of income and net worth (or likely higher). I believe those stats alone disqualify you from receiving any sympathy from the marauders. God forbid, if you should feel their wrath even in some small way, I would be willing to bet that you would carefully re-examine your views and what led you to form them in the first place. I think you would feel duped. I've seen it happen countless times.

---

Since Black owned business get vandalized, I don't know why you think anyone thinks they will receive or deserve any particular sympathy. Frankly, I'm shocked people in Oakland haven't yet started moving into affluent areas and vandalizing.

It is quite simple. The next time a cop kills a Black person on film like George Floyd, there will be violence and looting in the streets. The way to stop it is to stop the injustice. I will not change my tune because the way to protect my house is to prevent the anger from boiling over. I cannot protect my house from a mob on my own and there aren't enough cops to do it.

---

Yes, the injustice has to be stopped. You're a smart guy and willing to stray from orthodoxy when needed. Let me ask you something: The last Republican to be elected mayor of Minneapolis was in 1957. There were 5 years of "Independent" leadership. The rest were democrats. 54 years worth. Ilhan Omar represents Minneapolis as Congresswoman of the 5th district. Keith Ellison is attorney general. They have a democratic governor. Both US Senators are democrats, including the powerful Amy Klobuchar. Now tell me, with a 5-star democrat roster like this, and 54 years of democrat rule within the city, and a black police chief, how in the world have they been so unsuccessful in shaping a police force to conform to the wants, needs, and ideals of their community? This is a gargantuan failure and it repeats itself in every damn democratic-run urban locale in this nation. It's on display for all to see. Why is this so, Oak? Does it not cause you to question any of your beliefs?

---

Do you think I don't know there are racist Democrats? This is a nationwide problem and hits Democratic areas as well as Republican areas. Here is why I think your argument is silly.

1. A large majority of cops are Republicans. A large majority of police leadership are Republicans. Police unions are very strong. The fight against police review boards has been brutal. It is naive to think that law enforcement does not have a lot of power that it takes a lot of unified public will to counter.

2. Too many Whites of all political stripes simply don't believe the Black community over the cops. Cops do not behave this way in the White community. It has been a long road to scratch the surface on understanding,

3. So great. Minnesota is Democrat. I could name scores of Republican places that are far worse in their behavior toward minorities. And many more who don't have the occurrences because they don't have the minorities.

4. Republicans almost unanimously come to the defense of the cops unless it is so obviously bad that it cant be denied, and then you get a little over half. Even with Floyd, a far higher percentage of Democrats say the cops were wrong than Republicans.

5. Democrats are not a monolith and are far more diverse in opinion than Republicans. Those of us that have been trying to fix the problem are fully aware that the Democrats have just begun to do so. It has been a long fight. But the difference is we have made headway in the Democratic party. Police practices have not improved under every Democratic regime but they have improved under some and they have not improved under Republicans. More and more rank and file are seeing this as an important issue while Republicans continue unmoved. Polling shows basically zero sympathy for the Black community on this issue.

To put it plainly, Democrats have not done enough. Democrats have moved too slowly. But they have moved. There is hope. There is no hope within the Republican Party. Urban police departments came from a very dark place and many have them have improved tremendously while still not improving enough.

I get the argument because conservatives want to suppress the Black vote. And thank you because the Democrats will be stronger by working harder to earn the Black vote. But the argument is disingenuous The Democrats are trying to do X. The Republicans are trying to impede X. If I care about X, I'm not voting for the one who actively fights X, because the other hasn't accomplished X.

---

Man you're getting all torqued up. You're all over the place. Are you saying that Ilhan Omar, Keith Ellison, Tim Walz, and Amy Klobuchar are the wrong kind (racist) Democrats and that's why they've failed? In which cities have Dems made progress? Name them. Are you telling me that if Giuliani was mayor of NYC that the results of the past week would be the same? Yeah right. Ask any New Yorker if he didn't turn things around.

Democrat policies hurt the very people they claim they're trying to help. It's all talk Oak.

---

I don't know all their records. I am saying historically some of the Democrats have been on the wrong side on the issue. I'm saying that the job of those on the right side isn't finished. I'm saying it is disingenuous to argue that because Democrats haven't finished their job while republicans have fought against them that the blame is on Democrats. I'm saying that where police practices have been improved Democrats have been behind it.

I view your argument as the equivalent of me saying to people who want to build a wall that they should vote for Biden because Trump hasn't built a wall. I won't do that. I don't want a wall. Biden doesn't want a wall. Democrats have fought the wall as hard as they could. If people want a wall, they should vote for Trump.

If people want police reform they should vote Democrat and continue the fight within the Democratic party because the Republicans actively are against police reform.

---

Well, I can't argue with "Democrats haven't finished their job." Although 54 years seems like enough time in the case of Minneapolis.

---

I have no idea if Democrats in Minneapolis have even started the job, but you and I both know they haven't been working on this issue for 57 years. I'd be surprised if it is 10. This issue was barely visible in the White community until Ferguson. Even Oscar Grant had little impact outside the Bay Area.

How about you make a case where Republicans have instituted major police reforms to better deal with the Black community. Or even have put forward positions meant to do so. This is an important issue. If Republicans have had success somewhere, I'd love to listen. I read Lunchtime's post with great interest an he has always presented as center-right.

sycasey said:

---

I just don't live in fear.

---

You mean except for when it comes to the Chinese Flu and going out in public, correct? We always knew you were the fearless one on the board.

calbear93 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Both parties have sucked at fixing the problem.

---

---

---

---

I like some police reform, but the impact of police reform will be microscopic compared to a myriad of other, easier options.

"Unarmed" is also a stupid metric to understanding whether a killing is justified, or in question. You don't have to be armed with a weapon to be justifiably killed. Obviously. You can be armed and be unjustifiably killed, too. Obviously. This is basic stuff. It has to be thrown out there to combat the silly narratives about LE brutality, but being unarmed tells us very little and is intentionally injected into a story to propagate a narrative of misconduct around the killing. Whites may be killed 10x as much as blacks, but if all whites were killed under justifiable circumstances, and all blacks weren't, well that's suggestive more digging must be done. It doesn't mean of course those unjustified killings were done as a result of racial bias. But at least knowing whether it was justified lends itself to needing to examine the specifics of the trend.

OaktownBear said:

---

If people want police reform they should vote Democrat and continue the fight within the Democratic party because the Republicans actively are against police reform.

---

Spare me, you sound like someone in the f'n political SWAMP.

BearForce2 said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Sycasey, while resting in the comforts of their safe neighborhood

---

I live in Oakland in a mixed neighborhood (not in the hills). Some storefront windows were smashed a few blocks away from me. You've made this claim before about me and it's all wrong.

I just don't live in fear. I take the benefits of living in a vibrant, diverse city and accept that there are drawbacks as well.

---

sycasey, if the looters and bandits were to come on to your block, do you think they would show compassion to you because of your views?

---

Probably not? What's your point?

---

My point is that people who claim to be sympathetic to the looters probably feel that those sentiments are returned in kind. I think that although you are against crime in principle, you feel a certain kinship with them which you probably think is also shared by them towards you. I don't know you, but if you're typical of those on this board you are well-educated; not black; and in the 80th percentile of income and net worth (or likely higher). I believe those stats alone disqualify you from receiving any sympathy from the marauders. God forbid, if you should feel their wrath even in some small way, I would be willing to bet that you would carefully re-examine your views and what led you to form them in the first place. I think you would feel duped. I've seen it happen countless times.

---

Since Black owned business get vandalized, I don't know why you think anyone thinks they will receive or deserve any particular sympathy. Frankly, I'm shocked people in Oakland haven't yet started moving into affluent areas and vandalizing.

It is quite simple. The next time a cop kills a Black person on film like George Floyd, there will be violence and looting in the streets. The way to stop it is to stop the injustice. I will not change my tune because the way to protect my house is to prevent the anger from boiling over. I cannot protect my house from a mob on my own and there aren't enough cops to do it.

---

Yes, the injustice has to be stopped. You're a smart guy and willing to stray from orthodoxy when needed. Let me ask you something: The last Republican to be elected mayor of Minneapolis was in 1957. There were 5 years of "Independent" leadership. The rest were democrats. 54 years worth. Ilhan Omar represents Minneapolis as Congresswoman of the 5th district. Keith Ellison is attorney general. They have a democratic governor. Both US Senators are democrats, including the powerful Amy Klobuchar. Now tell me, with a 5-star democrat roster like this, and 54 years of democrat rule within the city, and a black police chief, how in the world have they been so unsuccessful in shaping a police force to conform to the wants, needs, and ideals of their community? This is a gargantuan failure and it repeats itself in every damn democratic-run urban locale in this nation. It's on display for all to see. Why is this so, Oak? Does it not cause you to question any of your beliefs?

---

Do you think I don't know there are racist Democrats? This is a nationwide problem and hits Democratic areas as well as Republican areas. Here is why I think your argument is silly.

1. A large majority of cops are Republicans. A large majority of police leadership are Republicans. Police unions are very strong. The fight against police review boards has been brutal. It is naive to think that law enforcement does not have a lot of power that it takes a lot of unified public will to counter.

2. Too many Whites of all political stripes simply don't believe the Black community over the cops. Cops do not behave this way in the White community. It has been a long road to scratch the surface on understanding,

3. So great. Minnesota is Democrat. I could name scores of Republican places that are far worse in their behavior toward minorities. And many more who don't have the occurrences because they don't have the minorities.

4. Republicans almost unanimously come to the defense of the cops unless it is so obviously bad that it cant be denied, and then you get a little over half. Even with Floyd, a far higher percentage of Democrats say the cops were wrong than Republicans.

5. Democrats are not a monolith and are far more diverse in opinion than Republicans. Those of us that have been trying to fix the problem are fully aware that the Democrats have just begun to do so. It has been a long fight. But the difference is we have made headway in the Democratic party. Police practices have not improved under every Democratic regime but they have improved under some and they have not improved under Republicans. More and more rank and file are seeing this as an important issue while Republicans continue unmoved. Polling shows basically zero sympathy for the Black community on this issue.

To put it plainly, Democrats have not done enough. Democrats have moved too slowly. But they have moved. There is hope. There is no hope within the Republican Party. Urban police departments came from a very dark place and many have them have improved tremendously while still not improving enough.

I get the argument because conservatives want to suppress the Black vote. And thank you because the Democrats will be stronger by working harder to earn the Black vote. But the argument is disingenuous The Democrats are trying to do X. The Republicans are trying to impede X. If I care about X, I'm not voting for the one who actively fights X, because the other hasn't accomplished X.

---

Man you're getting all torqued up. You're all over the place. Are you saying that Ilhan Omar, Keith Ellison, Tim Walz, and Amy Klobuchar are the wrong kind (racist) Democrats and that's why they've failed? In which cities have Dems made progress? Name them. Are you telling me that if Giuliani was mayor of NYC that the results of the past week would be the same? Yeah right. Ask any New Yorker if he didn't turn things around.

Democrat policies hurt the very people they claim they're trying to help. It's all talk Oak.

---

In a previous thread, he said he thinks most people are good including himself. Most except for Republicans, cops, and racist Democrats. He's all over the place, there's no coherency.

---

You have to understand, times like these are the Race Hustler's Super Bowl. They're hyped and want to emote.

3rd and last swing is a few days stale pearl came by way of Nextdoor social media of all places:

Quote:

---

Shocking revelations in the news today!

[url=https://nextdoor.com/news_feed/?post=150561646][/url]FBI came out and said that themselves and Homeland Security have no proof of Antifa ever being present at protests. I wanted to share because I have seen many posts speaking of Antifa, how violent they are, and how they are terrorists.

It's interesting to point out that although no Antifa presence has been proven, white supremacists posing as protestors starting violence/lootings has been confirmed. Something to think about.

---

basis points to a few days old article from beacon of Truth Justice and the American Way (liberal edition)..
https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/antifa-trump-fbi

snipped..

Quote:

---

The FBI's Washington Field Office "has no intelligence indicating Antifa involvement/presence" in the violence that occurred on May 31 during the D.C.-area protests over the murder of George Floyd, according to an internal FBI situation report obtained exclusively by The Nation. That same day, President Donald Trump announced on Twitter that he would designate "Antifa" a terrorist organization, even though the government has no existing authority to declare a domestic group a terrorist organization, and antifa is not an organized group. Following the president's tweet, Attorney General William Barr said in a statement, "The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly."

The FBI report, however, states that "based on CHS [Confidential Human Source] canvassing, open source/social media partner engagement, and liaison, FBI WFO has no intelligence indicating Antifa involvement/presence." The statement followed a list of violent acts like throwing bricks at police and the discovery of a backpack containing explosive materials, which were flagged by the FBI under a "Key Updates" section of the report. The FBI has been issuing such reports daily since the weekend, according to a Bureau source, who added that none of these documents contained any evidence of antifa violence.

Antifa, short for "anti-fascist," is a type of militant anti-racist, anti-nationalist organizing that does not rely on the justice system to confront the far right. Groups associated with antifa have destroyed property and committed violence in the past, but the fact that the FBI's situation reports cannot find any evidence of such involvement now suggests that fears about such groups may be exaggerated.

The report did warn that individuals from a far-right social media group had "called for far-right provocateurs to attack federal agents, use automatic weapons against protesters." (The Nation is withholding the name of the group in order to not disrupt any potential law enforcement investigations.)

Last year, FBI documents obtained by this reporter showed that the Bureau has listed "Racially Motivated Violent Extremists" among its top counterterrorism priorities. While those priorities did include white supremacist groups, they also included what the FBI called "Black Identity Extremists." The documents reveal that the Bureau linked "retaliatory lethal violence against law enforcement" to the "shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri," from which the Black Lives Matter movement originated.

The report, marked "For official use only" (FOUO), was provided to The Nation by an FBI official on condition of anonymity. The report is titled, "Civil Unrest in Washington AOR [Area of Responsibility] Following Death of George Floyd." The report's reference to "CHS" suggests that the Bureau possesses secret informants participating in the protests.

Asked about the report and why they've been unable to substantiate antifa involvement in the violence, the FBI's Washington Field Office declined to comment.

---

satisfied now '93? aha-ha-ha, of course not.

#gobears

smh said:

---

3rd and last swing is a few days stale pearl
came by way of Nextdoor social media of all places:

Quote:

---

Shocking revelations in the news today!

[url=https://nextdoor.com/news_feed/?post=150561646][/url]FBI came out and said that themselves and Homeland Security have no proof of Antifa ever being present at protests. I wanted to share because I have seen many posts speaking of Antifa, how violent they are, and how they are terrorists.

It's interesting to point out that although no Antifa presence has been proven, white supremacists posing as protestors starting violence/lootings has been confirmed. Something to think about.

---

basis points to a few days old article from beacon of Truth Justice and the American Way (liberal edition)..
https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/antifa-trump-fbi

snipped..

Quote:

---

The FBI's Washington Field Office "has no intelligence indicating Antifa involvement/presence" in the violence that occurred on May 31 during the D.C.-area protests over the murder of George Floyd, according to an internal FBI situation report obtained exclusively by The Nation. That same day, President Donald Trump announced on Twitter that he would designate "Antifa" a terrorist organization, even though the government has no existing authority to declare a domestic group a terrorist organization, and antifa is not an organized group. Following the president's tweet, Attorney General William Barr said in a statement, "The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly."

The FBI report, however, states that "based on CHS [Confidential Human Source] canvassing, open source/social media partner engagement, and liaison, FBI WFO has no intelligence indicating Antifa involvement/presence." The statement followed a list of violent acts like throwing bricks at police and the discovery of a backpack containing explosive materials, which were flagged by the FBI under a "Key Updates" section of the report. The FBI has been issuing such reports daily since the weekend, according to a Bureau source, who added that none of these documents contained any evidence of antifa violence.

Antifa, short for "anti-fascist," is a type of militant anti-racist, anti-nationalist organizing that does not rely on the justice system to confront the far right. Groups associated with antifa have destroyed property and committed violence in the past, but the fact that the FBI's situation reports cannot find any evidence of such involvement now suggests that fears about such groups may be exaggerated.

The report did warn that individuals from a far-right social media group had "called for far-right provocateurs to attack federal agents, use automatic weapons against protesters." (The Nation is withholding the name of the group in order to not disrupt any potential law enforcement investigations.)

Last year, FBI documents obtained by this reporter showed that the Bureau has listed "Racially Motivated Violent Extremists" among its top counterterrorism priorities. While those priorities did include white supremacist groups, they also included what the FBI called "Black Identity Extremists." The documents reveal that the Bureau linked "retaliatory lethal violence against law enforcement" to the "shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri," from which the Black Lives Matter movement originated.

The report, marked "For official use only" (FOUO), was provided to The Nation by an FBI official on condition of anonymity. The report is titled, "Civil Unrest in Washington AOR [Area of Responsibility] Following Death of George Floyd." The report's reference to "CHS" suggests that the Bureau possesses secret informants participating in the protests.

Asked about the report and why they've been unable to substantiate antifa involvement in the violence, the FBI's Washington Field Office declined to comment.

---

satisfied now '93? aha-ha-ha, of course not.

#gobears

---

You do realize I was joking, right? What part of, "but Antifa doesn't really exist, right" did you think I meant to be taken seriously? If you expect me to be gaslighted into thinking there was no Antifa in Portland or Oakland, nice try.

calbear93 said:

---

You do realize I was joking, right?

---

hush child, of course not, and theres videotape to prove it. skip right past sweety Linda Ronstadt to the 1 minute mark..


alt old school pencil and paper edition, whichever..

Quote:

---

I am the very model of a modern Major-General,
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical,
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
I'm very well acquainted too with matters mathematical,
I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news---
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.. ..

---

is this a joking matter?

are you comedian?

going4roses said:

---

is this a joking matter?

are you comedian?

---

saw the feature just last week for very the first time..

> Penny Fleck: I never heard him crying, he's always been such a happy little boy.

me too lol ... such a dark movie i need to finish it

going4roses said:

---

is this a joking matter?

are you comedian?

---

Why so serious?

Are you a fool?

smh said:

---

going4roses said:

---

is this a joking matter?

are you comedian?

---

saw the feature just last week for very the first time..

> Penny Fleck: I never heard him crying, he's always been such a happy little boy.

---

G4R should finish the movie because Arthur Fleck was such a conservative in the movie and did not believe rioting was justified.

Protests are stupid because 99% of them are, as MC points out, "incoherent". These are tantrums masquerading as quests for justice. And when you are merely venting due to some injustice, not articulating a solvable problem or outlining what's the threshold to meet, you are merely masturbating in public.

"When the grievance is unclear, so to is the solutions. When we can't explain why we're destroying the country, we can't explain what it will take to stop destroying the country. And the destruction becomes the status quo done for its own sake. This incoherence, this inability or refusal to diagnose the problem and prescribe a solution in specific terms was perfectly demonstrated by one of the most unlikely meetings of media personalities we've seen in a long time.

"If America as a whole is the problem, then the deconstruction of America is the only plausible response...Rush didn't have to destroy the Breakfast Club. Their own inability to explain and defend their positions did that for him...White privilege and white supremacy are the unfalsifiable overlords under which we all live, and any argument otherwise is to be dismissed..."

Rush: You keep harping on white privilege and white supremacy, will you tell me how to end it. What can we do to end this so that you are not frustrated and angry and feeling the way you do?

"You will notice two things about their answers. First, they are so general and vague that there is no plausible response or action. They are just empty buzzwords. 'We have to dismantle systems and mechanisms that marginalize.' That's just slightly advanced Joe Biden talk...

"Second, you'll notice the BC actually flips the obligation onto Rush. Rush wants to understand what they view as the problem and what they view as the solution. And throughout the interview they say it's [Rush's] job to describe the solution for them. They say they can't even solve their problems until white people do it for them. You say the problem can't be solved until whites understand. White person shows up trying to understand and you mock him for not understanding. Do you see how this is unsolvable.

"It's not that this is just poor argument form, it's that it's poor life form. It stifles potential. That is a philosophy and worldview that says 'everything I don't like is somebody else's fault and I'm powerless to do anything about it until somebody does it for me.' That is a view that ensures you remain powerless in exactly the way you complain about."

GB4L -- guess i'm from lefty Venus (a truly hellish place) and you're dusty Mars. can't remember the first thing from that infosphere floats my boat. yeah yeah, nobody is surprised or cares.

so long and thanks for all the fish

Black Lives Matter have yet to take any responsibility for the riots and looting.

A peaceful protest in Berkeley.

Peaceful looting.

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Sycasey, while resting in the comforts of their safe neighborhood

---

I live in Oakland in a mixed neighborhood (not in the hills). Some storefront windows were smashed a few blocks away from me. You've made this claim before about me and it's all wrong.

I just don't live in fear. I take the benefits of living in a vibrant, diverse city and accept that there are drawbacks as well.

---

sycasey, if the looters and bandits were to come on to your block, do you think they would show compassion to you because of your views?

---

Probably not? What's your point?

---

My point is that people who claim to be sympathetic to the looters probably feel that those sentiments are returned in kind. I think that although you are against crime in principle, you feel a certain kinship with them which you probably think is also shared by them towards you. I don't know you, but if you're typical of those on this board you are well-educated; not black; and in the 80th percentile of income and net worth (or likely higher). I believe those stats alone disqualify you from receiving any sympathy from the marauders. God forbid, if you should feel their wrath even in some small way, I would be willing to bet that you would carefully re-examine your views and what led you to form them in the first place. I think you would feel duped. I've seen it happen countless times.

---

Since Black owned business get vandalized, I don't know why you think anyone thinks they will receive or deserve any particular sympathy. Frankly, I'm shocked people in Oakland haven't yet started moving into affluent areas and vandalizing.

It is quite simple. The next time a cop kills a Black person on film like George Floyd, there will be violence and looting in the streets. The way to stop it is to stop the injustice. I will not change my tune because the way to protect my house is to prevent the anger from boiling over. I cannot protect my house from a mob on my own and there aren't enough cops to do it.

---

Yes, the injustice has to be stopped. You're a smart guy and willing to stray from orthodoxy when needed. Let me ask you something: The last Republican to be elected mayor of Minneapolis was in 1957. There were 5 years of "Independent" leadership. The rest were democrats. 54 years worth. Ilhan Omar represents Minneapolis as Congresswoman of the 5th district. Keith Ellison is attorney general. They have a democratic governor. Both US Senators are democrats, including the powerful Amy Klobuchar. Now tell me, with a 5-star democrat roster like this, and 54 years of democrat rule within the city, and a black police chief, how in the world have they been so unsuccessful in shaping a police force to conform to the wants, needs, and ideals of their community? This is a gargantuan failure and it repeats itself in every damn democratic-run urban locale in this nation. It's on display for all to see. Why is this so, Oak? Does it not cause you to question any of your beliefs?

---

Do you think I don't know there are racist Democrats? This is a nationwide problem and hits Democratic areas as well as Republican areas. Here is why I think your argument is silly.

1. A large majority of cops are Republicans. A large majority of police leadership are Republicans. Police unions are very strong. The fight against police review boards has been brutal. It is naive to think that law enforcement does not have a lot of power that it takes a lot of unified public will to counter.

2. Too many Whites of all political stripes simply don't believe the Black community over the cops. Cops do not behave this way in the White community. It has been a long road to scratch the surface on understanding,

3. So great. Minnesota is Democrat. I could name scores of Republican places that are far worse in their behavior toward minorities. And many more who don't have the occurrences because they don't have the minorities.

4. Republicans almost unanimously come to the defense of the cops unless it is so obviously bad that it cant be denied, and then you get a little over half. Even with Floyd, a far higher percentage of Democrats say the cops were wrong than Republicans.

5. Democrats are not a monolith and are far more diverse in opinion than Republicans. Those of us that have been trying to fix the problem are fully aware that the Democrats have just begun to do so. It has been a long fight. But the difference is we have made headway in the Democratic party. Police practices have not improved under every Democratic regime but they have improved under some and they have not improved under Republicans. More and more rank and file are seeing this as an important issue while Republicans continue unmoved. Polling shows basically zero sympathy for the Black community on this issue.

To put it plainly, Democrats have not done enough. Democrats have moved too slowly. But they have moved. There is hope. There is no hope within the Republican Party. Urban police departments came from a very dark place and many have them have improved tremendously while still not improving enough.

I get the argument because conservatives want to suppress the Black vote. And thank you because the Democrats will be stronger by working harder to earn the Black vote. But the argument is disingenuous The Democrats are trying to do X. The Republicans are trying to impede X. If I care about X, I'm not voting for the one who actively fights X, because the other hasn't accomplished X.

---

Man you're getting all torqued up. You're all over the place. Are you saying that Ilhan Omar, Keith Ellison, Tim Walz, and Amy Klobuchar are the wrong kind (racist) Democrats and that's why they've failed? In which cities have Dems made progress? Name them. Are you telling me that if Giuliani was mayor of NYC that the results of the past week would be the same? Yeah right. Ask any New Yorker if he didn't turn things around.

Democrat policies hurt the very people they claim they're trying to help. It's all talk Oak.

---

I don't know all their records. I am saying historically some of the Democrats have been on the wrong side on the issue. I'm saying that the job of those on the right side isn't finished. I'm saying it is disingenuous to argue that because Democrats haven't finished their job while republicans have fought against them that the blame is on Democrats. I'm saying that where police practices have been improved Democrats have been behind it.

I view your argument as the equivalent of me saying to people who want to build a wall that they should vote for Biden because Trump hasn't built a wall. I won't do that. I don't want a wall. Biden doesn't want a wall. Democrats have fought the wall as hard as they could. If people want a wall, they should vote for Trump.

If people want police reform they should vote Democrat and continue the fight within the Democratic party because the Republicans actively are against police reform.

---

Well, I can't argue with "Democrats haven't finished their job." Although 54 years seems like enough time in the case of Minneapolis.

---

I have no idea if Democrats in Minneapolis have even started the job, but you and I both know they haven't been working on this issue for 57 years. I'd be surprised if it is 10. This issue was barely visible in the White community until Ferguson. Even Oscar Grant had little impact outside the Bay Area.

How about you make a case where Republicans have instituted major police reforms to better deal with the Black community. Or even have put forward positions meant to do so. This is an important issue. If Republicans have had success somewhere, I'd love to listen. I read Lunchtime's post with great interest an he has always presented as center-right.

---

No, they haven't been working on it for 57 years, that's true. Many of the Democrats of yesteryear were much more law-and-order oriented than today's. Remember Hillary's "Superpredators" speech from 1996? But these police brutality issues are far, far more common in Democrat-run cities. Miami has a large black population and a Republican mayor. Have you noticed that they've been far more successful maintaining order without accompanying reports of police violence? You know very well that if any police brutality happened there CNN would have landed a battalion of reporters on site as fast as they could.

Police brutality has been an issue in this country since the 1960s, and more recently, in the Minneapolis area, Philando Castile was shot by a cop in a St. Paul suburb. That was in July of 2016. Why didn't that event create urgency for police reform in the twin cities? Think the local politicians' hands were tied? Here's proof they weren't: Minneapolis banned choke holds and neck restraints on June 5, just 11 days after Floyd's death.

LMK5 said:

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Police brutality has been an issue in this country since the 1960s, and more recently, in the Minneapolis area, Philando Castile was shot by a cop in a St. Paul suburb. That was in July of 2016. Why didn't that create urgency for police reform in the twin cities? Think the local politicians' hands were tied? Here's proof they weren't: Minneapolis banned choke holds and neck restraints on June 5, just 11 days after Floyd's death.

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Because the requests for change are incoherent. No action can follow from incoherence. If society is affirming the radical terrorism stemming from a false premise, and a case where justice is in fact being served, the gauntlet has been established -- there are no parameters.

BearNIt said:

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Who going to Pay?

We all pay until the people stop dying at the hands of the police while unarmed and being investigated for misdemeanors, or just under suspicion, or just being asleep in their own bed in their own home, or just standing on your own porch.

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Celebrities don't even pay. They do pay to help get the rioters and looters out of jail to help encourage further violence. Absolutely amazing and I know you like Justin Timberlake.

Ilhan Omar, you know she can't resist, it's Minnesota after all.

She's calling for police departments all over the country to disband because you can't fix what is "beyond reform." Now this is a woke person, the rest of the Democrats will need to catch up and get with the program.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/ilhan-omar-disband-minneapolis-police

BearForce2 said:

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Ilhan Omar, you know she can't resist, it's Minnesota after all.

She's calling for police departments all over the country to disband because you can't fix what is "beyond reform." Now this is a woke person, the rest of the Democrats will need to catch up and get with the program.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/ilhan-omar-disband-minneapolis-police

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In what slot is she on Biden's VP candidate list? Top 5?

LMK5 said:

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BearForce2 said:

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Ilhan Omar, you know she can't resist, it's Minnesota after all.

She's calling for police departments all over the country to disband because you can't fix what is "beyond reform." Now this is a woke person, the rest of the Democrats will need to catch up and get with the program.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/ilhan-omar-disband-minneapolis-police

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In what slot is she on Biden's VP candidate list? Top 5?

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I think you know she is nowhere close to that list.

smh said:

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going4roses said:

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is this a joking matter?

are you comedian?

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saw the feature just last week for very the first time..

> Penny Fleck: I never heard him crying, he's always been such a happy little boy.

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What did you think?

sycasey said:

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LMK5 said:

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BearForce2 said:

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Ilhan Omar, you know she can't resist, it's Minnesota after all.

She's calling for police departments all over the country to disband because you can't fix what is "beyond reform." Now this is a woke person, the rest of the Democrats will need to catch up and get with the program.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/ilhan-omar-disband-minneapolis-police

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In what slot is she on Biden's VP candidate list? Top 5?

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I think you know she is nowhere close to that list.

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Of course, she can't be on the list, but stupidity on this forum is to be expected at this point. You're all pathetic excuses for citizens and none of you deserves the right to vote.

Lucas Lee said:

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sycasey said:

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LMK5 said:

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BearForce2 said:

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Ilhan Omar, you know she can't resist, it's Minnesota after all.

She's calling for police departments all over the country to disband because you can't fix what is "beyond reform." Now this is a woke person, the rest of the Democrats will need to catch up and get with the program.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/ilhan-omar-disband-minneapolis-police

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In what slot is she on Biden's VP candidate list? Top 5?

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I think you know she is nowhere close to that list.

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Of course, she can't be on the list, but stupidity on this forum is to be expected at this point. You're all pathetic excuses for citizens and none of you deserves the right to vote.

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That's right. If you can't vote like Yogi votes, you don't deserve the privilege of voting.

Lucas Lee said:

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sycasey said:

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LMK5 said:

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BearForce2 said:

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Ilhan Omar, you know she can't resist, it's Minnesota after all.

She's calling for police departments all over the country to disband because you can't fix what is "beyond reform." Now this is a woke person, the rest of the Democrats will need to catch up and get with the program.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/ilhan-omar-disband-minneapolis-police

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In what slot is she on Biden's VP candidate list? Top 5?

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I think you know she is nowhere close to that list.

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Of course, she can't be on the list, but stupidity on this forum is to be expected at this point. You're all pathetic excuses for citizens and none of you deserves the right to vote.

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I'm with the other SJWs on this one -- you are a petulant child who, despite all your d**k-slobbering for Bernie, by virtue of your mindless hard headedness about voting the Democratic nominee you are effectively a Trump supporter and voter. You can put "I supported Trump by staying at home" on the bumper sticker of your Prius.

After all the rioting and looting here's what BLM believes from their website:

Quote:

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We practice empathy

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Buildings and businesses don't matter and apparently it's insulting to bring up as a topic of discussion because it doesn't compare to lives. In other words, the rioting and violence is justified.